Ever wanted to know the thoughts of car fans?

Tea

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It's the Holden lion, of course. Everyboy knowz Clocker is a Holden man.

img_HoldenLogo.gif
 

e_dawg

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No wonder it looks like the Impala. Holden = GM Australia? I see there are quite a few GM family cars and US GM engines there... the 2.2L Ecotec 4-banger from the Cavalier, the 3800 pushrod V6 (and the supercharged version from the GTP), the 5.7L V8 and the LS1 version from the Camaro/Vette. Some of these models look pretty good... in fact, I wouldn't mind if GM in N.America carried Holden instead of Buick.

What is the opinion of Holden in Aus? In N.America, GM is considered to be a mediocre car compared to the superior Japanese and German competitors.
 

Tannin

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Well, I could just say "ask Jake". :)

Let's take a stab at it anyway. Australian attitude to Holden has gone through three major phases:

#1 up till about 1970 or so. Simply the best car for Australian conditions. Big, cheap, simple, reliable, crude on the road but rugged enough to drive at typical Australian speeds on typical Australian roads.

#2 from about 1970 to about 1985 or so. Simply outclassed by smaller, cheaper, more ecenomical, better equipped, better made, more reliable Japanese cars.

#3 From about 1985 to the present. Big, versatile, well-built cars with excellent road manners and giving reasonable value for money. Australia's #1 car.

I'm ignoring the European car snobs here: some of them know their stuff, but the majority buy a European car to impress the neighbours. They wouldn't know a McPherson strut from a Dior suit. Bottom line is, European cars just don't compete: they are priced at least $5000 and usually $10,000 above the direct competion (more than that in luxury segments), and they are poorly equipped for Australian conditions: they are too small, lack torque for towing, often have stupid design features like the indicator stalks on the wrong side, inadequete air conditioning systems, and too little suspension travel which makes them hopeless on poor roads, and they cost a bloody fortune for spare parts. (This is a generalisation, of course: and there are plenty of individual exceptions to it. But in broad it is true.)

You ''can'' buy one in the States, and probably in Canada too. Or at least you will be able to very soon: go to http://www.pontiac.com/vehicle_lineup/index.jsp?source=hmbnav for details. Click > vehicles > upcoming vehicles > GTO. It's Flash, so I can't give a direct link. And, you, E_Dawg, will probably have to walk across the border to the USA to see if you can find a computer with Flash loaded. (Don't forget to set fire to it before you leave.)

In small cars, the Japanese are best, or used to be. In big cars, Holden rulez.

I've owned several of them.

1967 HR Holden:

hr_van.jpg


Crude, very practical, steering that was so vague that you would start twisting the wheel half way down the block before you got to the corner, but that was just wear on the recirculating ball thingie, coupled with a wheel big enough to use as a spare tyre for a bicycle. By the time I sold it, the old 161ci 6 cylinder motor had gone around the clock twice (almost) and never had the head off. 170, or 190,000 miles. Can't complain.

1987 VL Commodore:

unx-039.jpg


Mine was a wagon. ("Estate car" for my linguistically challenged brothers over the water.) Brilliant car! The first Commodores (i.e., the old, small body ones like the VL, not the current bloated ugly things) at their best (i.e., the VL) blended European design with Australian toughness and common sense (no bullshit backwards indicators!) with a superb Nissan 3.0 Litre straight six - smooth as silk. Much better than the crappy stone-age US-sourced iron-block pushrod stuff we had before that, and are now stuck with once again, alas.

2000 Holden Barina:

holden_barina_3_door.jpg


Kristi's sister calls it "a girl's car". I call it so cheap it's stupid. $15,000 brand new with alloys, air, CD player, and all the usual trinkets, a 3 year 100,000k warranty that covers everything - you can lock the keys inside 500 miles from the nearest town and all you have to do is call them - and it does a carefully measured 50 miles to the gallon going flat out in high summer with the airco on full-blast. (That's real gallons, none of these weeny American things.)

Masses of room inside, faster than a V8 in city traffic, ridiculously easy to park, better for the environment than anything bar a motorbike, you can reach the passenger-side door to lock it from the inside without taking your hands off the wheel, stops on a sixpence.

I was going to throw it away when the warranty ran out, which was last month, and buy another one for some more small change, but in three years I've done 27,000k and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it bar a very slightly bent number plate from when I forgot to put the handrake on and touched someone's tow bar at about 0.5 mph.

You have to remember that it's got bloody horrible power steering (nothing actually wrong with it - just that it's power steering and I hate power steering and have never in my life owned a car with power steering before) and fairly soft suspension with poor roll control, so you don't give a great big wrench on the wheel if you wan to change lanes smartly at 110k!

Not much of a driver's car, but WTF? I'm not much of a driver these days - I average under 5000 miles a year.

It's designed by Opel in Germany, made in Spain, engine made here, sent to Spain, sent back again. Never needs any attention bar petrol once every five or six weeks, a service once a year (if I remember) and new wiper blades now and then.

It's perfect.

Except it doesn't have a courtesy light in the boot and they put the stupid bloody indicator stalk on the wrong side!

sigh
 

Clocker

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Yep....that is the Lion logo of Holden. That is a sweet logo, IMO. I like the Vauxhall one too.

Since I attend a monthly video conference meeting with them as well as our friends at GM Europe, and GM Mexico I've come to get to know their vehicles better. It sucks to be a Holden guy at the meeting though.....by the time the meeting is over it is 2AM at their office! The Russelsheim folks have it a bit easier, I think it is more like 5-6PM at the end of the meeting at their neck of the woods. The meeting starts at 7AM EST so I think the Mexico muchachos show get to work at about 4AM and leave around 7AM. Ack!

I agree that GM has some distance to go to improve but we're improving a lot every day and working hard to get better! Times are tough and we are laying off people (almost all of our 'contract' works now are gone) but we have great leadership and I'm confident we will continue rising to the top. It's exciting to be at GM these days! Here's a copy/paste of a recent WSJ article about it:

GM, Hyundai Excel in Consumer Reports Survey

Ford, Mercedes Do Poorly; Toyota Remains a Favorite With 20 Recommendations

The Wall Street Journal

March 11, 2003

By Karen Lundegaard


General Motors Corp. and Hyundai Motor Co. did surprisingly well in annual rankings by Consumer Reports magazine, joining perennial favorites Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. The big losers: Ford Motor Co. and Mercedes-Benz, the luxury brand of DaimlerChrysler AG.

Toyota, including the Toyota and Lexus brands, had 20 vehicles recommended by Consumer Reports out of 25 models rated. Honda, including the Acura brand, earned recommended ratings for 10 out of 14 models evaluated. GM placed 13 models on the magazine's recommended list out of 48 evaluated, its best showing to date.

Consumer Reports, which has influenced car buyers for decades, recommended just five Ford vehicles -- including two from its Volvo unit -- out of 32 evaluated. The magazine's editors said they have seen a steady decline in the number of recommended Ford vehicles since 1999.

"It's all reliability that brings them down," said David Champion, head of the magazine's auto-test facility, who noted Ford's showing was the worst since he joined the magazine in 1997. Meanwhile, Mercedes received no recommendations and its reliability was third worst of all the brands.

Mr. Champion said that while DaimlerChrysler seems to be improving reliability at Chrysler, it has "left their own shop bare." Often reliability issues involve power equipment such as windows, locks and seats as well as electrical problems. European automakers generally aren't keeping pace with the reliability improvements of the domestic and Japanese brands, he added.

One of the big turnaround stories has been Hyundai. Mr. Champion said the South Korean automaker had been one of the worst in the survey a decade ago. During the past three years, its reliability has continued to improve and its 2002 model-year vehicles were tied with those of Honda for second place in reliability.

The magazine, now in its 50th year of rating automobiles, holds remarkable sway over consumer purchasing decisions. Many buyers insist on checking with the magazine before buying a vehicle. Nearly 10% of buyers a month away from purchasing a vehicle use it as their primary source of information, second only to advice of a friend or relative, at 14%, according to CNW Marketing Research. "There is probably nothing else as a single entity that holds as much influence as Consumer Reports does," Art Spinella of CNW says.

In addition to the recommendations, GM earned two "best picks," the magazine's top honor, for its Chevrolet Silverado pickup truck and the Pontiac Vibe (which shared the honor with the vehicle's twin, the Toyota Matrix). They were the Detroit company's first top picks. Two years ago, GM received 11 recommendations, but last year that number dwindled to four.

One sore spot for the world's largest automaker: Cadillac, which may be making a sales comeback, but had the worst reliability of all major auto brands.

GM spokesman Tom Wickham noted that the reliability rankings were done on three-year-old vehicles, and the automaker has done much to improve quality in the past two years. Consumer Reports agreed, noting that several GM trucks showed improved reliability. "We have great expectations that Cadillac products will be rising up the ranks," Mr. Wickham said.

Honda garnered five of the magazine's coveted "top pick" designations, its best showing since the magazine began the best-in-class designations in 1997. Toyota lost two of its best picks, earning just two this year, its worst showing since 1999.

Reliability scores come from the magazine's survey of approximately 3.5 million subscribers, about 480,000 of whom responded. Consumer Reports subscribers are older, richer and better educated than the population as a whole. Some two-thirds are men. The six-page survey, which asks readers to judge everything from their vacuum cleaner to automobile to restaurant chains, in the past has drawn criticism from automakers.

This year auto firms seemed more reluctant to criticize the magazine's methodology. Ford, which last year questioned the minimum sample size for each model (100), this year limited comments to a written statement that said "quality is Ford Motor Co.'s highest priority." (Ford, of Dearborn, Mich., also included results of its Japanese affiliate Mazda, of which it owns a third, in its results, thus boosting the number of recommended vehicles from five to nine.)

Don Dees, vice president for quality for Chrysler Group, says Consumer Reports results generally track the company's own quality data. "Consumer Reports is a very good metric for us to look at as a company," he says.

Mercedes spokesman Fred Heiler noted that the questions are vague and don't make a "distinction between a squeak or a rattle or an engine or transmission falling out on the road." Mr. Heiler believes Mercedes's poor reliability results often are linked to added technology that the German-U.S. auto maker has included in the vehicle that owners often don't know how to use, so they assume it is flawed.

The Passat supplied the only good news for Volkswagen AG, with its six-cylinder version garnering a best pick for the sixth year in a row in the family-sedan category. Otherwise, the German automaker's reliability was panned, even in its Audi luxury lineup, which earned no recommendations.

Consumers Rate Cars

Some of the best and worst from this year's Consumer Reports annual auto issue:

Top Picks

Best car tested............ BMW 530i

Fun to drive............... Subaru Impreza WRX

Family sedan............... Honda Accord (4 cylinder), Volkswagen Passat (6 cylinder)

Small sedan................ Honda Civic EX

Driving green.............. Honda Civic Hybrid

Affordable versatility..... Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix

Small SUV.................. Toyota RAV4

Midsized SUV............... Honda Pilot

Pickup truck............... Chevrolet Avalanche

Minivan.................... Honda Odyssey

Vehicle Reliability

2000 model year vehicles average 55 problems per 100 vehicles, but some automakers did better than others.

Best

Acura 21

Toyota 25

Lexus 25


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Isuzu to Cut U.S. Vehicle Production

Los Angeles Times

March 11, 2003

By John O'Dell

American Isuzu Motors Inc., the struggling maker of sport utility vehicles, said Monday that U.S. production of two of its three remaining models would cease next year and that in 2005 it would begin importing SUVs made in Thailand to help fill the gap.

The Cerritos-based U.S. import and distribution arm of Japan's Isuzu Motors Ltd. is restructuring in an attempt to find a new place for itself in the North American market and said details of the plan would be announced April 17.

"There will continue to be an Isuzu in the U.S.," spokesman Charles Letzgus said Monday.

Isuzu, an affiliate of General Motors Corp., helped start the SUV craze in the U.S. when it introduced the Trooper in the early 1980s.

But sales have dried up as the firm has lost marketing and product development support from its ailing Tokyo-based parent. American Isuzu's sales fell 36% last year after a 14% decline in 2001.

As part of its cost-cutting effort, Isuzu in January sold its 49% stake in a joint-venture vehicle manufacturing plant in Lafayette, Ind., to former partner Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd.'s Subaru passenger car unit.

Isuzu's Rodeo and Axiom models are built at the Indiana plant and the company contracted with Subaru for continued production until the end of the 2004 model run.

"The last vehicles will be built there sometime in the summer of 2004," Letzgus said.

Production will continue on Isuzu's third U.S. model, the Ascender SUV, which is made by GM. The Ascender model now being sold at Isuzu dealers is a re-badged seven-passenger GMC Envoy XL, and at the New York Auto Show next month Isuzu will announce that it will begin selling the shorter, five-passenger version as well.

In addition, Isuzu said in 2005 it would begin importing a new SUV to be built at its Thailand factory.

The company has not disclosed design and other information about the new SUV, which will be built on a mid-size pickup truck platform.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ups and Downs for Japan's Auto Industry

Asia Pulse

March 11, 2003

TOKYO -- Continued overall economic slowdown has been emaciating many Japanese industries, but the automakers of this country are likely to remember fiscal 2002 as a bumper year.

Both domestic sales and exports have been steadily growing. In February, domestic sales of vehicles totaled 367,505 units, up 5.1 percent year on year, marking the sixth straight month of increase. Japan's auto exports rose 16.8 percent year on year in January to 383,168, for the thirteenth straight month of increase, after surging 23.9 percent in December.

Exports hit a nine-year high in 2002, rising 12.8 percent to 4.699 million, thanks mainly to strong demand from North America and Europe as well as a rebounding economy in Southeast Asia.

Buoyed by the surging demand, domestic vehicle production at all five major automakers has been growing.

In January, domestic production at Toyota Motor Corp. rose 9.5 percent to 299,356 vehicles for the fifth month of year-on-year increase. Honda Motor Co. reported an 8.6 percent increase of domestic production to 108,018 vehicles for the same month.

Nissan Motor Co. said its production grew 21.7 percent to 116,069 vehicles. Mitsubishi Motors Corp. and Mazda Motor Corp. recorded smaller increase in domestic production.

In the same month, worldwide production at Toyota climbed 12.4 percent to 478,999 units and that of Honda rose 16 percent to 264,269 units. Nissan's global output grew 11 percent to 228.059 units, for the 11th straight month of increase.

The strong demand and growing output have been boosting profits at these automakers, with group pretax profit rising for Toyota, Nissan, Honda and Mazda.

Things may not be so rosy as these figures suggest. A case in point is Honda whose per car operating profit is lagging behind those of Toyota and Nissan. Honda's per car operating profit has decreased 10 percent from the preceding year, although its Fit subcompact has outsold Toyota's Corolla to become the best selling car in the category for 2002.

Brisk sales of the Fit jacked up Honda's overall domestic sales in volume, but profit failed to keep up with sales results because with a price tag of less than 1.5 million yen, Fit's profit margin is a fraction of high-priced models such as the Odyssey minivan, whose sales are slowing.

Even Japan's largest automaker Toyota is suffering from low profits from the domestic market. Amid the deepening deflation, more consumers are shifting toward lower-priced subcompacts and asking for deeper discounts, which is depressing Toyota's profitability.

The meager profit margin on the domestic market leave the automakers dependent on the overseas markets, particularly North American sales. But the geopolitical crises involving the U.S., especially the likelihood of war in Iraq have been chilling consumer sentiment and lifting oil prices, thus clouding auto sales outlook in the North American market.

According to some stock analysts, Toyota and Honda are no longer growth stocks. These firms should be considered cyclical stocks that are heavily influenced by cyclical changes in general economic activity, they say.

To lower their reliance on the North American markets, Japanese automakers are enlarging their presence in the promising Chinese market. On Oct. 8, Toyota began producing passenger cars in China in a joint venture with Tianjin Automotive Xiali Co., an affiliate of China FAW Group Corp., China's largest automaker.

Toyota also plans to invest about 100 billion yen in China, mainly with a second plant it will start operating jointly with China FAW Group in 2005. Honda plans to expand annual output at its joint venture Guangzhou Honda Automobile Co. to 240,000 units by spring of 2004 from current 50,000 units.

Nissan has signed a deal to jointly produce passenger cars and trucks with Dong Feng Motor Corp. from spring.

The automakers with annual output of less than 4 million units will not withstand the global competition, and smaller Japanese firms are seeking their ways of survival through strengthening their ties with larger foreign companies.

Mitsubishi, which is 37.3 percent owned by DaimlerChrysler AG, jointly developed the Colt subcompact and released it in Japan in November. The European version of the car will also be built at Mitsubishi's joint venture plant in the Netherlands.

Mazda, which is about a third owned by Ford Motor Co., looks set to become an international niche player. The company has been sharing more of vehicle platforms with Ford, and limiting its product line which once covered from small trucks, minicars to luxury sedans.

In August, to help financially strapped Isuzu Motors Ltd., General Motors Corp. accepted Isuzu' offer to retire its holdings and buy new shares worth 10 billion yen issued by Isuzu.

This has lowered GM's stake in Isuzu from 48 percent to 12 percent. Isuzu also has to bear 57 billion yen in loss for fiscal 2002 that stemmed from its withdrawal from Subaru-Isuzu Automotive Inc. sports utility vehicle production joint venture located in Indiana. Isuzu had owned a 49 percent stake in SIA and Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. held a 51 percent interest. Isuzu sold its sake worth 47 billion yen to Fuji Heavy for 1 dollar on Jan. 1.

OUTLOOK:

To make the U.S. less vulnerable to instability of external energy supply, the Bush administration has been pushing ahead with its initiative in improving vehicles' fuel economy.

While GM, Ford and DaimlerChrysler are arguing the U.S. government's target is too high to clear, Japanese firms seem more positive about building eco-friendly, fuel economy vehicles.

On December 2, Toyota and Honda each delivered their first commercially produced fuel cell vehicles to the Japanese government. The two also began marketing the vehicles in the U.S. on the same day, local time. Toyota's FCHV model can run for 300km, on a full fuel tank and Honda's FCX travels 355km on a full fuel tank.

The cost of producing a fuel cell vehicle is still prohibitively high at about 100 million yen and Toyota has been leasing the FCHV model to the government for 1.2 million yen per month and Honda charges 800,000 yen for leasing the FCX. Both automakers are working on lowering production costs and making efforts to overcome technological problems and bugs.

Nissan had decided to jointly develop fuel cells with the United Technologies Corp. group of the U.S. to speed up commercialization of fuel cell vehicles.

Nissan and UTC Fuel Cells will jointly develop fuel cell stacks for powering automobiles and install UTCFC fuel cells in Nissan vehicles to be released on a limited basis this year. Toyota develops its own fuel cell technology and Honda used the fuel cell stacks of Ballard Power Systems Inc. of Canada in its vehicles. But Honda is now developing its own fuel cells.

It is so costly to develop fuel cell vehicles independently that only a small number of automakers will succeed in doing so on their own, suggesting international industry cooperation in this area will increase.
 

e_dawg

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I tell you what, Clocker. You give us the Pontiac Solstice as is, all is forgotten!

P.S. Hiring Bob Lutz was a masterstroke, if only for the image boost. The fact that he actually allows the designers to shine is a bonus.
 

e_dawg

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Tannin said:
... with a superb Nissan 3.0 Litre straight six - smooth as silk. Much better than the crappy stone-age US-sourced iron-block pushrod stuff we had before that, and are now stuck with once again, alas.

Indeed, Nissan makes good engines. I'll tell you what, though. Those iron block pushrod engines you have are extremely good despite their archaic origins. The 3800... I have heard nothing but praise for this workhorse. Possibly the most reliable GM engine. Similarly, the LS1 V8. They have done a great job of re-engineering this thing for high performance. Who would have thought these big pushrods could be so fuel efficient? While I'm sure you would prefer Nissan's VQ 3.0 and 3.5 L engines, I don't think you'd find too many people who aren't impressed with what GM's been able to do with their engines. There is a reason why GM didn't have to scrap their pushrod engines for OHC designs like Ford did: they were able to make them so good that it was pointless to "reinvent the wheel". Cue the new 4.0 L OHC inline six from GM in the Envoy... 270 HP (~200 kW), but some people are disappointed by the lack of torque.

It's designed by Opel in Germany...

No wonder it's good... sorry, Clocker :)

Here's my yuppie-mobile

http://www.catalytic.ca/px.htm

... but I am a "Euro snob" who knows their stuff :)
 

timwhit

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If you want to talk about archaic engines, you should have a look under the hood of my Jeep Wrangler. They have been using the same basic engine design for about 20 years. That engine gets absolutely horrible gas mileage. 12mpg in the city, not much better on the highway. But, I don't drive it too much. I have a Tomos Targa 50cc moped that I use when I don't need to go above 30mph. It gets about 100mpg, so there isn't too much to complain about there.

The Jeep sucks for most things, but drive it offroad and you will be a believer. Whenever I have a chance to take the Jeep down a trail I take it. It's the most fun I have ever had with a car.
 

timwhit

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IIRC the original Wrangler engine was a 1964 design, it went through some changes when Chrysler bought Jeep in 1987. But the original engine is still based on the 1964 design. I'm not totally sure about any of this though, if someone else knows then tell me.
 

timwhit

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Howell said:
Tim, Are you the one that used to have the old Mustang?

Yeah, I sold it last February and bought the Jeep. It was a '97 GT 5-speed, and was a lot of fun. But, everything that could go wrong with it did. I think the water pump broke about 6 times. The last straw was when the intake manifold cracked on the highway, and threw coolant everywhere, and it cost $800 to fix. Plus I burned through a set of $750 tires in less than 2 years.

The Jeep is more versatile than the Mustang, but I like the Mustang 10 times more for highway driving. The noise in the Jeep is about the same as taking off in a Boeing 727. I could buy a hardtop for it, but they are too expensive and you have to have somewhere to store it in the summer.

When I get a good paying job someday I really want to get a new Mustang Cobra. 390HP...faster than a Vette.
 

timwhit

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I kinda forgot about how fun the Jeep is in the Summer with the top off. If the winter ever ends I will be able to experience it again. Last summer I left the top off for about 2 months straight (except when it rained).
 

Howell

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timwhit said:
Yeah, I sold it last February and bought the Jeep. It was a '97 GT 5-speed, and was a lot of fun.

Oh. For some reason I remembered it as a '60s or '70s Mustang. '97, old, ha. That's almost 10 years newer than my car.
 

Tannin

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GM have indeed worked wonders with their archaic pushrod engines, E_Dawg. They are astonishingly good for what they are. But they are still horribly rough and crude by comparison with any decent modern straight six - and in this context, by "modern" I mean "designed in the last 30 years".

That is one of the reasons I bought the Barina. I owned a Mazda rotary for six years or so, and, OK, that spoiled me, raised my expectations in an unrealistic way, but there is no way I'm going to spend good money on a new Commodore when my old 1987 model one (Nissan 3.0 litre six) had an engine that is superior in every way. GM have fiddled and tuned and tweaked far better than I would have thought possible, but it's still a pig's ear - and to my ear it just sounds like crap. OK, it's well-muffled crap, but it's crap. Sounds like a tractor engine. Vibrates like one too, balance shafts notwithstanding. I'd buy a car with an engine like that if I was looking for something cheap and practical - and by cheap I mean under $10,000AU. But with a Commodore costing $30,000 minimum and $40,000 in a realistic trim level, I expect a real engine for my money.

(None of this appliues to the V8s, of course. V8s are supposed to vibrate and sound lumpy.)
 

e_dawg

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Hahaha... we have successfully hijacked another thread. Good work, team :)

The thing with the straight 6, Tannin, is that if you use that as a requirement in a prospective car, you aren't going to have many models to choose from. Most manufacturers have moved away from them -- ironically, GM designed a 4.0 straight 6 to replace its pushrods -- and for good reason. That long row of cylinders takes a fair amount of room away from the passenger compartment. It is quite simply an inferior combination of space efficiency vs. displacement/power.

Even Mercedes, a long-time straight 6 advocate along with BMW, switched to the V6 in the 90's. When Volkswagen wanted 6 cylinder power in their compacts, it didn't want to suffer the packaging problems a V6 would cause, let alone a straight 6, so they designed the VR6 (inline-vee). It uses 2 rows of cylinders staggered by a mere 15 degrees and sharing a single block and head. Voila, 6 cylinder power in a 4 cylinder engine bay. Space efficiency is a big concern these days.

Granted, the straight 6 is inherently balanced, but balance shafts can and do remove most of the offending vibrations. Look no further than Nissan. The VQ30 engine is extremely smooth -- so much so that people were afraid Nissan was messing with perfection when they introduced the larger displacement VQ35 that has been the key to Nissan's recent success in N.America (Altima, Maxima, G35, Pathfinder, etc).
 

Clocker

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e_dawg-
The real beauty behind the new generation straight six is it's modularity. We have 5 and 4 cylinder variants of the engine coming out with very low investment required and very few part number changes. Packaging a straight six does have limitations but the cost savings when develping in-line engine families are great.

Also, I think the straight six does have some packaging advantages when it comes to the 4WD system. The vehicle family in question (GMT360/370) is interesting in that the half-shafts up front actually go through the oil pan.

For those of you pulling trailers who want more torque, the V8 is now available in the Trailblazer, Envoy, and Rainier. I think it is the 5.3L but it may be the 4.8L. If you have a trailer big enough to need more than that, you should be in the market for a Tahoe/Yukon with the 6.0L gas or the sweet Isuzu Duramax turbodiesel (think only available in pickups).

C
 

iGary

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The straight 6 is the smoothest engine in existence because it is perfectly balanced as opposed to the vibrating straight 4s and V8s. Volvo makes a 120 degree V6 that is the equivalent of a straight 6 as far as ignition timing goes, and it runs as smooth as a straight 6.



  • > Ever wanted to know how a fan sounds before you buy?

Ehhh... Not really.

However, what I want is a squirrel cage fan for my computer -- complete with real squirrel inside!!!
 

P5-133XL

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Place an exhaust fan at the squirrel cage and if the fan is powerful enough the output will leave on its own.
 

timwhit

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The 4.6L Mustang engine is most certainly not balanced, but it has the sweetest sound when you push the accelerator to the floor. The low-end torque on that car was amazing considering that it did not have that much horsepower (215). When someone else would drive away in my Mustang and I was outside to listen to how it sounded, I would sit there and just think how great that engine sounds.

By comparison, the Jeep sounds like crap. The inline 6 just does not have any character. I would sometimes just sit in the Mustang and rev the engine and feel the unbalanced engine make the car tilt to one side. It’s times when I think of that, that I wish I had another Mustang.
 

timwhit

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To add to the sound that certain engines make my friend had a Toyota MR2 turbo. Although it was as fast as the Mustang it just didn't have the same kind of sound as the Mustang. A four cylinder engine will never be able to reproduce the same kind of sound that an eight cylinder engine can make, and for that matter neither will a six cylinder. I don't care how many turbo chargers or super chargers are attached, there is no beating the sound of a V8.

The same friend bought a Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 a few years later. Which is a V6 twin turbo with 320hp. Even though that car was extremely fast it never did equal the sound that the Mustang could make.
 

e_dawg

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timwhit said:
I would sometimes just sit in the Mustang and rev the engine and feel the unbalanced engine make the car tilt to one side. It’s times when I think of that, that I wish I had another Mustang.

When we say unbalanced, we are talking about dynamic imlabance of the moving components inside the engine -- the reciprocating masses and firing order causing vibrations in the engine -- not static balance of the entire engine in terms of the engine's overall cg and weight distribution...

The tilt you feel when you rev the engine is the engine twisting in its engine mounts and even twisting the chassis itself (the Mustang has a weak chassis) due to the crank/flywheel torque not having any opposing force from the transmission and wheels (Newton's 2nd law).

A four cylinder engine will never be able to reproduce the same kind of sound that an eight cylinder engine can make, and for that matter neither will a six cylinder. I don't care how many turbo chargers or super chargers are attached, there is no beating the sound of a V8.

A V8 sounds great, for sure, but I prefer the sweet sound of a Ferrari V12. More refined sounding than a V8, it simply sings! And 6-cylinders certainly can make some music as well. Some of BMW's inline sixes in the 80's sounded excellent (the 3.2). My VR6 sounds pretty good with a performance exhaust. But I think we can all agree on one thing: I haven't heard a 4-banger yet that sings.
 

e_dawg

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Since we're on the subject of engines and I am discovering that there are quite a few carheads on this forum, allow me to post this link to an article on the VR6's design. I thought it was pretty brilliant engineering by VW's engineers.

http://www.geocities.com/gkurka2001/CarTech/tech_engine_packaging.htm

Speaking of modularity, Clocker, VW also uses the concept quite nicely. The W12 is two VR6's joined together; the VR4 is a shortened VR6. VW also has the W8 now, but this article is pretty old so it doesn't talk about it. I think the W8 is two VR4's joined together in a "mirrored array" at 72 degrees using a flat crank a la Ferrari.
 

Jan Kivar

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VW has/had also VR5, basically it's VR6 with one cylinder removed.

The topic is, to say the least, misleading...

Jan
 

LiamC

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At the risk of getting flamed, I think Subaru's flat fours sound great. In-line 4's sound like sewing machines.
 

e_dawg

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LiamC said:
At the risk of getting flamed, I think Subaru's flat fours sound great. In-line 4's sound like sewing machines.

I am guessing it is because they are unusually large displacement for 4-cylinders -- 2.5 L flat four is the infamous Subaru engine. The larger displacement probably helps to avoid the sewing machine / lawnmower / motorcycle sound that the typical micro sized (1.5-1.8 L) inline-4's are usually known for.
 

Handruin

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LiamC said:
At the risk of getting flamed, I think Subaru's flat fours sound great. In-line 4's sound like sewing machines.

Certainly won't get flamed by me. :) I'm with you on this one LiamC. Not only do I enjoy the sound of the flat 4 (my sisters suburu has one) but I really enjoy the sound of the flat 6. (porsche)

It's funny that this topic has come up as I was thinking about this just the other day. I enjoy the sound of a V8 mustang, but my personality leans toward that of a BMW inline 6 sound, or the sound of a supra TT. It's not as loud, but it's more of a "techy-modern" sound. Not really sure how to describe it.

I would like to keep my V6 up in the 5K-6K RPM range all day long if it wasn't so stressful to an engine, not to mention costly with the fuel. I really enjoy the sound my engine makes at high RPM's.
 

Handruin

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Here is a fun video:

Hennesy viper vs two Supra TT's (right click save target as)

I love the sound of the blow-off valve as the supra steps on it next to the viper. You can hear the odd sound of the V10 coming from the viper.
 

honold

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i was just looking at jetta vr6 vs bmw 325/330xi and i found all sorts of clear declarations about the use of premium gas on the vw.

is this the case w/most modern cars w/nice engines? :(
 

Mercutio

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ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzz

Someone wake me up when we're talking about computers again.

zzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZ
 

mubs

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e-dawg, thanks for the link on the VR6 - interesting reading! In my college days, I was a car freak, dreaming up specs for every major sub-system of the car I was going to build. I even designed a logo that was an acronym of the company name (VM); the logo looked like a crankshaft of sorts. I had names for the first few models I was going to build. Sadly, I never pursued my ambitions.

Bartender, maybe a triple strngth black coffee for Merc?
 

e_dawg

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honold said:
i was just looking at jetta vr6 vs bmw 325/330xi and i found all sorts of clear declarations about the use of premium gas on the vw.

is this the case w/most modern cars w/nice engines? :(

Yes, honold. The reason is that the higher octane is necessary to prevent pre-detonation (pinging/knocking) from the aggressive timing and compression ratios used in today's high specific output engines. In the past, if you used lower octane than what your engine was tuned for, you could get harmful pre-detonation and knocking. The difference these days is that engine management systems have superior knock sensing and adjustment capabilities that you could run your engine on regular -- the VR6 is capable of running on 87 octane, for example -- but you will lose say 10-15% of your engine's power because the engine's computer will sense incipient pre-detonation and retard ignition timing (and sometimes richen the fuel mixture) in response to prevent said pre-detonation. IMO, however, you might not want to test this regulatory capability too often -- these things are probably 99.9% reliable, but that 0.1% of the time when it may not catch pre-detonation might be harmful.
 

e_dawg

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Also, on the Jetta VR6 vs. the BMW 325/330xi, I was considering the BMW before I got the Jetta. I test drove the 325Ci 5-speed and found that: 1. the BMW was quieter, smoother, and generally more refined than the Jetta, but 2. the 325Ci was weak down low and could not match the 1st gen VR6 anywhere in the rpm range; 3. despite the standard sport-suspension on the Ci series, the suspension was a little soft and felt underdamped in transitions, and 4. the 325xi that I was going to buy was $10k USD more than my Jetta VR6 "on the road" and I could not stand the blatant price gouging by BMW -- e.g., $700 option for split-folding rear seats on a $30k car? Are you kidding me? Xenon lights not standard, $2k sport package that is basically for sport seats and a 3-spoke steering wheel; other options can only be obtained through expensive multi-k packages.

If I was going to get an xi, I would get the 330, as the 325xi with the extra weight of the AWD components would be pretty slow. The 325Ci is already disappointing.
 

e_dawg

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Note that a new generation of the Golf/Jetta is due in the 2005 model year, possibly as early as March 2004. There have been rumours of them making a 270 HP W8 AWD 4Motion version to go along with new engines like the 240 HP 3.2 L VR6 and possibly the 2.0T.
 

timwhit

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Front wheel drive on a performance car is horrible. 4WD is boring in a sports car. True sports cars always are RWD. As far as I'm concerned 4WD is for lots of snow or lots of mud. FWD is for people that don't know how to properly drive a car in inclement conditions.
 
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