Exciting technology

What up and coming tech has your interest?

  • Claw Hammer

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • P4

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Duallies (Either AMD or P4)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Big 3 Graphics (NV30, R300, Matrox G1000)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other Graphics (Creative 3D labs, Kyro, Trident, SiS)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • DDR-2 (Next Jan or so they say)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Storage (please elaborate)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Faster current memory (DDR or RDRAM)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No thanks, happy with what I've got

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

LiamC

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Sorry for so many options

I've been reading the "Systems that sell" thread and it seems to have morphed into this question "What up and coming tech has your interest?", so I thought I'd poll you people.

Do people really care about any of the new tech that's on the horizon or have we really reached a plateau as somebody said?

For me, the 3D card is the current bottleneck, but Hammer promises cheap dual processing, but it's not due until next year...

http://www.theinquirer.net/08050216.htm

This article seems to think that 256MB is enough for the avg. consumer, so what else is there to drive the upgrade?
 

Buck

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Serial ATA. I'm interested in seeing how these new devices will work as alternative products in a server environment.

My second pick would be Clawhammer or is it Opteron? Either way, new technology will lower the cost of present, but satisfactorially performing, hardware.
 

LiamC

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Damn, forgot about SATA - but then I don't see it as offering any performance improvements over current PATA so it's not on my horizon.

FWIW I use a Promise card as well as the onboard so only one device is connected to any one IDE port.
 

Mercutio

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Serial ATA. Particularly if, as SAN_guy eluded on SR, bridged U320 SCSI to SATA enclosures become available.

Floppy replacements, if anyone is listening to me (CF, dammit!)

Anything that improves PC I/O (PCI X, HyperTransport, whatever).

A sound card with native support for DPLII.

Smallish, portable USB storage. Those keychain things are decent, but they don't hold enough data.

Reasonably priced gigabit switching. Particularly if it comes from Cisco and fits in a Catalyst 5005.
 

i

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Mercutio said:
Floppy replacements, if anyone is listening to me (CF, dammit!)

How do you mean "floppy replacement"? Flash memory technology is already well established ... doesn't that qualify?
 

Mercutio

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Yeah, but readers aren't standard equipment yet, and I still see floppy interfaces on motherboards.
 

CougTek

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Matrox Millenium G1000. Thats the thing that'll have the biggest influence on the user experience when he'll be sitting in front of his screen. All the others you mentioned improve raw performances, but except for the geeks, people won't notice all that much.

You forgot one thing that I would like to see coming on the computer market : UXGA LCD (or OLEd or FED or any technology that could be used to make flat and thin screens) at low prices. With high contrast ratio, fast response time and accurate color reproduction to top that. Want it or not, computers are mainly visual tools. Nothing improves more your experience than image quality enhancements.
 

Handruin

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I would have to agree with 10K EIDE in an SATA format. :) I also like the suggestion of GigE switched being affordable, possible in a fibre connection. (OK I'm dreaming)
 

Groltz

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That damned 100X CD-Rom/25X DVD-Rom drive that was supposed to have been released by Afreey LAST YEAR...
 

Handruin

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Groltz said:
That damned 100X CD-Rom/25X DVD-Rom drive that was supposed to have been released by Afreey LAST YEAR...

I wonder what kind of noise that drive would produce? :sqnt:
 

i

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Mercutio said:
Yeah, but readers aren't standard equipment yet...

But as a system builder, you're one of the people who can actually start fixing that problem! Seriously!

Mercutio said:
...and I still see floppy interfaces on motherboards.

Not on that Abit MAX motherboard. :wink:

I agree with you though. Floppy drives are well overdue for a final disappearing act. Along those lines, at my former place of employment I considered seizing the bull by the horns and start replacing floppy drives with CF units.

Those USB CF readers are dead common, and very cheap. But what the dim-witted manufacturers don't seem to understand is that I don't need anothering stupid item hanging around on my desk! Geez. I've got this huge tower case right here with all these free drive bays ... why the hell do I want an external reader?

After ages of searching, I found these two items:

http://www.psism.com/psiiic.htm

http://www.mydigitaldiscount.com/display_product.cfm?product_id=25

Both attach as IDE devices, but it's clear that the second (cheap) option is not as convenient as most would like it to be. Unless, perhaps, you're using Linux, in which case the system might handle the disappearing/reappearing CF cards. Regardless, that first option looks the most tempting. If I had the money I'd love to try one out.
 

Groltz

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Handruin said:
Groltz said:
That damned 100X CD-Rom/25X DVD-Rom drive that was supposed to have been released by Afreey LAST YEAR...

I wonder what kind of noise that drive would produce? :sqnt:

It is/was to be based on True-X technology, so fairly quiet. I have a 52X Kenwood True-X Cd-rom and it is barely audible.
 

Groltz

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More on it:
Afreey in Cebit 2001 presented their latest DVD-ROM "9025E" which supports 25x DVD-ROM/100x CD-ROM reading and uses "Raptor" chipset from Infineon:

"...Raptor, is Infineon Technology's first single-chip, high- performance DVD-ROM controller. It uses Zen Research's MultiBeam "TrueX" single-beam DVD, and CD drives. Raptor sets an industry speed record of 25x DVD, and 100x CD read rates, when deployed with a MultiBeam optical pickup (from Sanyo). The MultiBeam technology allows DVD and CD drives to achieve peak performance across the entire face of the disk, and not just when reading from the outer disk edge. Disk spindle rates are correspondingly lower than on single-beam drives, reducing vibration, noise, power consumption and heat dissipation.."

Key features:

- MultiBeam 25x/100x CD single chip solution
- Integrated ATAPI interface (supports all data transfer modes up to UltraDMA 66)
- DVD/CD decoder including CSS, ECC
- Support of system configurations of: DVD-ROM, DVD-combo (with external CD-RW controller)
- Disc-read support of: Dual-layer DVD, DVD-R/ROM/RW, CD, CD-R/ RW/ROM/Enhanced
- DVD Audio support
 

Handruin

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Ah makes sense. I was figuring that a 100X CR-ROM without something like a multi-beam would have to spin at 15K RPM or more. We would then see people liquid cooling their CD-R/DVD drives and wearing noise cancellation earphones.
 

timwhit

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There was an article on Slashdot a few weeks back about the stress that a CD can take before it blows up. It happened to most CDs at about 28K RPM. A 100x drive would certainly be very close to this especially on the inner tracks.

A drive with multiple laster is the obvious answer to this.

I tried to find the article on slashdot, but I gave up.
 

Mercutio

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CougTek said:
Matrox Millenium G1000. Thats the thing that'll have the biggest influence on the user experience when he'll be sitting in front of his screen.

I disagree somewhat. Matrox has been at the limit of 2D quality for quite some time. The other players are just starting to get there (ATI's new cards look good, supposedly nvidia's do too, and 3dfx was just a notch behind when it was devoured).

But since quality is there in the hardware, I think that the place where change needs to happen is with the display itself. The $100 17" display is a real boon to integrators. The $100 19" monitor will be even more of one. I don't feel bad at all about selling an "underpowered" budget machine with a big monitor. Big monitors mean more to a user's satisfaction than just about anything, except the magic words "deep discount".
 

Buck

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Mercutio said:
I don't feel bad at all about selling an "underpowered" budget machine with a big monitor. Big monitors mean more to a user's satisfaction than just about anything, except the magic words "deep discount".

Quite right Mercutio. An average video card with a 17 or 19 inch display causes customers to drool. A really high performing video card with a 15 inch display has little appeal.
 

CougTek

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Mercutio,

I meant that the graphic card was the thing that would have the biggest impact for the user among the list of choices i gave. What you said about the monitor is true and the second paragraph of my previous post draws to the same conclusion.

My personal priority these days would push me more to wish for more powerful processors though, as I need more crunching power for the Genome@home project. A 64bit (or even 128bit when we're at it!) CPU running at P4 frequencies and selling at Duron prices would be nice :) (I guess I'll have to wait another ten years before it happens)
 

Mercutio

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It'll probably be longer than that before mainstream computing needs 128-bits. 64bits represents an awful lot of data (18446744073709551616 is the largest number you can represent. Obviously that's quite a large number.). 128 bits gets you 3.4x10^38. There you're getting in to "as many particles as there are in the universe" levels.
 

Tannin

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CougTek said:
A 64bit (or even 128bit when we're at it!) CPU running at P4 frequencies and selling at Duron prices would be nice :) (I guess I'll have to wait another ten years before it happens)

Nowhere near that long, Coug. Let's see if we can nut it out. Clawhammer debuts later this year, right?

Let's give Clawhammer about 6 to 12 months as a premium part before the Duron disappears completely, the Athlon XP becomes the Duron equivalent, and Clawhammer becomes the Athlon equivalent. Now another 6 to 12 months for there to be a new version of Clawhammer (smaller process, different interconnect technology, whatever) that takes the high-end over, and there we have it: 64-bit, Duron prices, and it will have long since passed current Pentium 4 clockspeeds.

Estimated time of arrival: two years.
 

jtr1962

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timwhit said:
There was an article on Slashdot a few weeks back about the stress that a CD can take before it blows up. It happened to most CDs at about 28K RPM. A 100x drive would certainly be very close to this especially on the inner tracks.

28K RPM means that the outer edge of the CD is moving at 392 mph-only about 150 mph less than a jetliner. No wonder the thing blows up! To be honest, I'm amazed they can even do 12K RPM in a 56X drive(=168 mph at outer rim, or bullet train speed).

Multibeam is the only way to go, or hopefully someone will find a way of focusing a laser with an electronically-controlled lens arrangement on the tracks of a stationary CD, and then speeds will be (theoretically) unlimited.

BTW, my vote goes for solid state storage. Forget 10K IDE, serial ATA, and so on. I want to get rid of the last moving part(besides cooling fans) and major bottleneck in PCs, namely the mechanical hard drive. Solid state will have speed and reliability several orders of magnitude above mechanical disks.
 

Tea

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Don't hold your breath, JTR, it won't happen anytime soon.

For me, I'm mostly interested in affordable, deliverable performance. In the sort of thing that I can expect to sell plenty of, and see people really benefit from.

And in computing, that means faster storage. The performance improvement of the storage sub-system has lagged way behind almost everything else.

10K IDE drives with seek times in the 7ms range are long, long overdue.
 

Sol

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Tannin said:
Let's give Clawhammer about 6 to 12 months as a premium part before the Duron disappears completely, the Athlon XP becomes the Duron equivalent, and Clawhammer becomes the Athlon equivalent. Now another 6 to 12 months for there to be a new version of Clawhammer (smaller process, different interconnect technology, whatever) that takes the high-end over, and there we have it: 64-bit, Duron prices, and it will have long since passed current Pentium 4 clockspeeds.

Actually AMD just recently announced that the current Durons would be phased out near the end of this year about when the clawhammer is released. The then current Athlon chip will apparently take on the Duron name and become the budget AMD chip.

With 3GIO, serial ATA and other technologies not too far away AMD may need to release new CPUs and chipsets to support these advances sooner than may otherwise be the case.

So maybe Tannins prediction could come to pass even sooner.
 

Platform

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. .
LiamC said:
Damn, forgot about SATA - but then I don't see it as offering any performance improvements over current PATA so it's not on my horizon...

SATA will notch up channel bandwidth AND real-world performance significantly, not to mention reduce overall equipement cost slightly once fully deployed by industry. SSCSI will do the same in a couple of years when it shows up.


. .
 

Platform

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. .
SATA will *start off* as a faster channel than any existing Parallel ATA technology. SATA's speed will initially be 150 MB/s over a thin, easy-to-manage, easy-to-deal-with cable. Speeds will ramp up significantly over the medium term.

Except for Maxtor's proprietary dead-end ATA specification, parallel ATA technology is limited to 128 GB capacity, whereas SATA has huge addressing capability.

The SATA command set is enhanced to provide SCSI-like capabilities. So, even at an equivalent channel speed SATA will still provide more real-world throughput because of its efficiency.

And, just as important as anything mentioned, SATA controllers will not require new operating system drivers as the existing ATA drivers are fully compatible.

Many SATA RAID host adaptors will be available once SATA hard drives finally start to be produced. There should also be 2-way SATA/PATA convertors available fairly early on, too. There will be SATA CD-ROM readers, floppy, CD-R/W, DVD-xx, tape, and Zip drives as well.

Basically speaking, SATA will both evolutionise and revolutionise common storage as we know it, and do so rather swiftly. Once people experience how good SATA technology will be, I'm sure nobody in their right mind will want to go back to crappy stuck-in-first-gear Parallel ATA technology and its cursed broad grey airflow killing cabling.


. .
 

Cliptin

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The reason I grouped my choices the way I did, SATA and solid state storage together, was for two reasons.

These two technologies are interesting enough by themselves. When combined, I see a progression toward smaller fast computers.

PS Platform, Are the two white dots at the end of your message supposed to mean something?
 

Groltz

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Cliptin said:
Are the two white dots at the end of your message supposed to mean something?


And you're now breaking in at least your 4th new user name???

Gary...Man of Mystery...
 

Bozo

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At the moment, we're going fast enough for most PC users. We have gobs of storage. We also have lickity-split memory, and plenty of it. How about the manufacturers work on quality and compatibility?

Maybe the chipset makers could take a break with being the firstest with the mostest, and concentrate on compatability. Like being able to use ALL the memory slots, no matter what brand/size they are. Or maybe making the AGP slot work with all the video cards, no matter what OS or processor is being used. Maybe even designing the motherboard layout so you physically install any add on card.

How about chipsets that are stable. Wouldn't that be novel.

Maybe not having to release a new BIOS or chipset drivers every week or two, to fix another, and another, and another problem.

How about hard drive manufacturers making hard drives 8gb and under for replacements in older computers or in a situation where you don't need 120gb.

How about all manufacturers being accountable for the junk they produce, and make it right with the customer.

How about warenties that mean something. And return "shipping & handling" charges that don't cost more than the device being returned.

How about software that works as advertise.

How about software that's compatable with someone elses software. (did you know that XP will not 'see' anything running Samba by design?)

How about hardware manufacturers supplying drivers for new operating systems, when the hardware is only a year old.

That's my wish list for the near future.

Bozo :D
 

Barry K. Nathan

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Platform said:
. .
SATA will *start off* as a faster channel than any existing Parallel ATA technology. SATA's speed will initially be 150 MB/s over a thin, easy-to-manage, easy-to-deal-with cable. Speeds will ramp up significantly over the medium term.
Of course, nobody is going to have ATA drives with STRs anywhere near that fast anytime soon, and PCI cards are going to be of little help on this front because most people still have 32-bit 33MHz, 133MB/s (if you're lucky -- some chipsets have bugs that cripple the speed to various limits like 75MB/s or 90MB/s) buses.
Except for Maxtor's proprietary dead-end ATA specification, parallel ATA technology is limited to 128 GB capacity, whereas SATA has huge addressing capability.
48-bit LBA addressing is at least a proposed standard, if not an approved one (I don't feel like checking www.t13.org to see which it is). It's not proprietary. I have no idea if ATA133 is proprietary or not, however.

And that brings me to an important point that people keep missing for whatever reason: 48-bit LBA and ATA 133 are unrelated issues, no matter what anyone imagines Maxtor's marketing department is implying. While ATA 133 data transfer speeds require an ATA 133 controller, 48-bit LBA capacities only require support in your operating system's driver. To use Linux as an example since I'm familiar with it, very recent kernels (2.4.19 prereleases, or the enhanced 2.4.18 that comes with Red Hat 7.3) can access the entire 160GB capacity of a Maxtor 160GB drive on most ATA controllers (the only exceptions I'm aware of are ALI chipsets, due to hardware bugs, and some Promise controllers with old BIOSes).
The SATA command set is enhanced to provide SCSI-like capabilities. So, even at an equivalent channel speed SATA will still provide more real-world throughput because of its efficiency.
What do you mean by this? If you're talking about Tagged Command Queueing, then IBM (75GXP and later) and Western Digital (some WD1200BB's, and possibly other models) PATA drives already support this, and it's just driver support in Windows, Linux, etc. that's lacking. (BTW, there's an experimental patch that adds support to Linux for TCQ on these drives.)
And, just as important as anything mentioned, SATA controllers will not require new operating system drivers as the existing ATA drivers are fully compatible.
I think you're going to need new drivers for the "SCSI-like capabilities" you mention above, though. At a minimum, if you want TCQ or MMIO, you'll need new drivers. (IOW, the existing drivers should work but the speed increase won't be as good as if you have newer drivers -- unless your old drivers happen to support things like TCQ and MMIO on PATA too.)
Many SATA RAID host adaptors will be available once SATA hard drives finally start to be produced. There should also be 2-way SATA/PATA convertors available fairly early on, too. There will be SATA CD-ROM readers, floppy, CD-R/W, DVD-xx, tape, and Zip drives as well.
Are these SATA RAID host adaptors going to be the RAID equivalent of WinModems, like most previous ATA RAID host adaptors, or are they going to mostly be real RAID cards?
Basically speaking, SATA will both evolutionise and revolutionise common storage as we know it, and do so rather swiftly. Once people experience how good SATA technology will be, I'm sure nobody in their right mind will want to go back to crappy stuck-in-first-gear Parallel ATA technology and its cursed broad grey airflow killing cabling.


. .
No argument there; the SATA cables would be revolutionary [perhaps that's the wrong word, but hopefully the meaning gets across] enough even if it was otherwise unmodified PATA running on them. In fact, that's what I see as the biggest advantage of SATA. (Unless there's other stuff that I'm unaware of, especially regarding SCSI-like capabilities, the other aspects of SATA don't seem particularly important to me based on my current knowledge of them.)
 

Barry K. Nathan

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LiamC said:
Sorry for so many options
Er, what do you mean? My main problem with the poll was that the Big 3 Graphics options weren't split into three separate options of their own; that is, I thought there weren't enough options. :)

I would have considered G1000 if it had been an option of its own, but (for the moment) I couldn't care less what NVidia and ATI have coming up (in particular, if NVidia can't eliminate their stupid Linux-related intellectual property issues that Matrox and ATI somehow don't have, so that we can finally have stable NVidia drivers for Linux, then I don't care about NVidia's next not-yet-released card unless it can do something really cool, such as biomedical research in the background whwnever the drivers crash).

I am so uninterested (right now anyway) in ATI's and NVidia's next offerings that I gave up on any possibility of choosing G1000, and I chose ClawHammer instead. It's going to be really neat when a single computer can (a) address more than 4GB of RAM without idiotic segmentation bottlenecks and (b) run x86 programs at full native speed without emulation!

Also, why are 'Duallies" on the list as an up-and-coming tech? Both dual AMDs and dual P4 Xeons (which are essentially P4's by another name and therefore are still P4's) have been around for a while now... Neither is really new at all, as far as I can tell.
 

LiamC

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Platform:

150MB/s over a point to point cable - Can you point me in the direction of an ATA drive that can deliver that? This will in the forseeable future mean absolutely Jack. The drives have to catch up first and the interface is no panacea.

Barry, it was an either/or choice, not an inclusive one but I didn't know how to make it obvious. I was interested in seeing what got peoples motor running without getting into the nitty-gritty. As for duallies, the way I see it is that with Intel HT (Hyperthreading) you can get psuedo dual processing with a single chip.

With AMD HT (Hyper Transport) links everywhere, the problems of designing and building dual processor capable motherboards become much simpler. Instead of a 100% price premium over a premium single chip board, it may drop as low as 50% over a high-mid range. If it becomes that cheap, I'd certainly consider it.

<pimpage>
If you want to see why some people have no business working in the tech industry, check out my homepage. 4GHz Athlon notebook. I'd like to see that! Who am I kidding, I'd like to own one. :)
</pimpage>
 

Handruin

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LiamC said:
150MB/s over a point to point cable - Can you point me in the direction of an ATA drive that can deliver that? This will in the forseeable future mean absolutely Jack. The drives have to catch up first and the interface is no panacea.

I think the thin cables alone would sell me on the new interface. ;) I hate those big clunky EIDE cables that don’t flex worth a damn. (I know there are rounded cables, but I don't want to buy them) Is there anything in the SATA spec that might increase the communication speed?
 

Sol

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Handruin said:
(I know there are rounded cables, but I don't want to buy them)

So get a pocket knife and some electrical tape and make them.
If the knife make you edgy just the tape will do nearly as good a job.
 

Bartender

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Sol said:
Handruin said:
(I know there are rounded cables, but I don't want to buy them)

So get a pocket knife and some electrical tape and make them.
If the knife make you edgy just the tape will do nearly as good a job.

The cables only cost a few dollars to buy, but they are still a bit clumsy - certainly nothing like a serial cable.
 

LiamC

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Thanks Tony,

it makes me ill seeing some of the cr*p in cattledogs that the uninformed consumer gets force fed - not that this is, this appears to be a simple typo. But I really wish people would buy from experts if they don't have the knowledge - but I guess glitzy marketing keeps the big boys in business...
 

LiamC

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Handruin,

I agree with you about the cables - should be a definite improvement, but I don't see any more speed coming done the pike.

..."I saw this movie about a bus that had to SPEED around the city, keeping its SPEED over 50. And if the SPEED dropped it would explode. I think it was called, the bus that couldn't slow down."...
 
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