Why capital punishments is required for cop killers

[Clocker]

For the first time in the history of my city, a Sterling Heights Police Officer was killed while performing his duties. What was he doing? He was sitting in a quiet parking lot of a local Target store (2 miles from my old house) and filing a report on his computer, when a man in a red Chevy Camaro rolled up next to his vehicle and shot him in the head with a shotgun. For no known reason, Officer Sawyers was killed while writing a god damn report. There can be no rehabilitation for or mercy for people who are so bold as to perform crimes like this. This killer needs to be found and prosecuted. Unfortunately, in MI there is no death penalty so he probably won't get what he deserves from the court system (but I bet he WILL get what he deserves when he's found). Someone this bold & stupid probably won't give themselves up...they will go down fighting. At least I hope so.

I was just pulled over by Officer Sawyers a few weeks ago. He wrote me a ticket but was really nice about it. After talking to my family members who are also police officers, we were able to work something out that would help me out when we met at court (later this year). It turns out my father-in-law was his elementary school football coach and my wife knew him through elementary school and my brother-in-law was friends with him for years as they grew up. He was killed in cold blood, still in his car, and left for dead slumped over his steering wheel. He could not have even seen it coming. And the killer stole his Glock to boot. There is no reason for this but what did the killer have to fear? The worst 'punishment' he can face in Michigan is free room and board, three-four square meals a day, TV and workout facilities for the rest of his life. Not a bad deal! He needs to die. More info here:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0406/06/b01-174858.htm

and here:

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3386109/detail.html

I feel terrible for his wife and <1 year old daughter. The only other officer to die in the line of duty in SH was killed in the early 1970's when he was hit by a drunk driver. We named a park after him so I'm sure officer Sawyers will get his due respect.

Man I hope we can get capital punishment on the ballot...this time! The public wants it but our officials are oblivios. The one thing I hate about my state is that it was the first to ban capital punshment.

 

[jtr1962]

This reminds me of a similar incident a while back in NYC. I even remember the officer's name-Edward Byrne. Here is one of the articles I was able to find about the incident. There were others as well. As with the case in your city, there was no death penalty in NY at the time. There is technically one now, but given the reluctance of prosecutors and juries to use it, plus the endless appeals process, I doubt anyone will actually be executed in New York State for at least 25 years, if ever.

I agree with you in principle. I think a death penalty is appropriate not just for cop killers but also for all murderers (that includes non-accidental vehicular homicide), rapists, child molesters, anyone stealing or embezzling over $1 million, anyone dealing drugs to a minor (drugs should be completely legalized for adults), anyone using a gun in a crime (whether or not it is even fired or loaded), and anyone plotting or carrying out terrorist activities. However, the death penalty as it is currently implemented is slow, cumbersome, costly, and arbitrary in its administration. As such it presents no real deterrent. I doubt that we as a nation would ever have the stomach to not only make capital punishment mandatory for a whole range of crimes, but also to implement it quickly (within a week after conviction) and eliminate the drawn out appeals process.

There is another issue here that death penalty opponents rightly bring up. Juries are notoriously inaccurate. The innocent routinely get convicted, even in death penalty cases, and the guilty regularly go free if they hire the right lawyers (i.e. OJ Simpson). We can make a workable death penalty if we eliminate the jury system and rely solely on technological means of determining guilt or innocence. More research in this field is in order. Once we can establish guilt or innocence without a doubt, one of the principle arguments against the death penalty is lost. Unfortunately, I'm quite sure lawyers and judges would argue vehemently against advanced lie detectors or thought readers as it would make them obsolete. However, it is clear to me that the current system doesn't work, can never be made to work as it is subject ot human error, and costs too much in terms of time and money. A sea change is in order.

In lieu of this, there is a better way than either life without parole or the death penalty. Put criminals of both sexes (after sterilization) in a large fenced off area to fend for themselves without guards, rules, or any means of support (this means growing or hunting their own food). The threat of being is such a place would surely deter even the most hardened criminal, and there can be no argument against it from death penalty opponents or anyone else. All the state is doing is to remove the person permanently from society in the most cost-effective way possible. What happens after that is out of the state's control. The state has in effect washed their hands of the matter. You can even simply have all nations use the same large area for inmates, declare that area international territory, and strip inmates of their citizenship, and thus any rights accorded by that citizenship. Inmates will have no laws save those they make for themselves, and they will be free to either make their communal area a paradise or a hell on earth.

 

[ddrueding]

SF's similar story.

It is indeed a tragety.


Following JTR's derailment (can't help myself) just a little:

Any person who knowingly and willfully commits a premeditated crime that negatively impacts the lives of at least one other person beyond any doubt should be eligible for the death penalty.

How about this: Stop building new prisons, and set up a timetable to shutdown 50% of those currently in operation. Whenever capacity is reached, find the person with the longest outstanding sentance and kill them. This makes any crime potentially punishable by death, the odds depending upon the crime's severity (and subsequent jail time).

 

[Santilli]

Clocker: It's really horrible when death hits home, and it's so close.
I'm sorry.
I've been posting about gang related stuff for a long time. Police and gangs are in a war no one wants to tell you about, and it's right here, in the United States, under your noses.

The 18's have 4 million members, in 13 states. Everytime an officer takes one of thier, illegal, under age, drug selling couples off the street, that officer threatens their gang, and killing police is their response.
I have information on all this stuff from a law enforcement convention in San Diego, in 2001, discussing the different gangs, their abilities, etc.
IT'S F.....G SCARY.

If you don't know it, these gangs have, in the past, killed witnesses against them, jury members, judges, prosecutors, and police officers.

What we should do is bring home the boys from Iraq, put them to work protecting, and closing our borders. If you don't know, the border patrol stuff is likewise subject to random shootings by gang members against
police.

I'm not sure if this was the case with the shooting in question, but valid points have been made that the only thing a criminal gets in Kalifornia
is a nice place to live, and hang out with his buddies, provided you are a gang member.

The real problem is as anarchy starts, thanks to such gangs, it provides modeling behavior for others.

The solutions posted here make some sort of sense, but, we are going after the wrong end of the problem.

Reduce illegal, and regular immigration, and the pressure of living together is reduced. Wages go up, and corporations have to pay a living wage, with benefits.

Our real problem is corporations influence these situations, by buying congress, and the drive for more wealth destroys the very stability in the nation that allows their existence.



s

 

[Santilli]

Wonderful layer I forgot about with the entire picture.
My town, Walnut Creek, has very little violent crime, but quite a bit of theft. Why? We have an excellent police force, and here's their side.

Around the town, we have a number of areas that have large numbers of illegal immigrants. These immigrants come from a land where theft is very common. In fact it's industry standard, and the police are the biggest thieves. Now, when they commit a property crime here, and they are caught, they are put in jail and the I.N.S. in San Francisco is called.
Our laws require you to be released, if you are not picked up by the INS.
Guess what? About 100% of the time, for property crimes, the INS does nothing, and the thieves walk right out the front door.

Come to America, steal, and nothing happens to you.

WONDERFUL.

The spin off is the growth of whiplash gangs in the area. Skinheads, crips, bloods, etc. are being formed, to protect themselves, since the police can't do anything.

It's going to get a lot worse, before it gets better.

s

 

[sechs]

Maybe if you hired citizens of the United States instead of migrant non-citizen workers (legal or otherwise), you wouldn't have these issues.

 

[Santilli]

Maybe if you hired citizens of the United States instead of migrant non-citizen workers (legal or otherwise), you wouldn't have these issues.

I'll take that as a rehtorical you.

I happen to agree with you. It would force better pay, better working conditions, and of course, a bit higher prices in the markets, but that's life.

On the otherhand, with fewer mouths to feed, with the law of supply and demand, maybe we wouldn't have 16 dollar a pound filets, and 10 dollar a pound fish.

Maybe some of those natural resources could recover, as long as we extend our international waters to 200 miles...

s

 

[sechs]

...And $3 a litre gasoline!

 

[ddrueding]

There was a study done down here in the "Salad bowl of the US" (Salinas, CA) about what would happen to the price of produce if only legal residents were paid at least minimum wage in all aspects of the business. The result? a ~15% increase.

This industry utilizes more illegal workers than any other in the US, and the increase is 15%? BFD.

 

[Santilli]

I'm with DD on this one. Use legal workers, and lots of the problems that inflate our taxes etc. would be solved.

Would you pick cabage for minimum wage is really the problem?
College students?

s

 

[sechs]

Which reminds me that I'd like to see, "A Day Without a Mexican" -- even if it is utterly tongue-in-cheek.

 

[Santilli]

sechs:
I'm not being a racist here.
No denying we took Kalifornia from Mexico. Still, the situation I have described exists, and, it is a serious problem.

I'm not jazzed when 400,000 visas are approved to bring in more tech workers from India, so they can drive the existing job market value down, and Kalifornia workers are deprived of a living wage.

Read tech industry buys congress...

Still, I can remember a friend having a hard time getting anyone to polish surfboards for 35 dollars an hour, since they all wanted to go high tech, and make a fortune. I wonder if we can get anyone to pick lettuce...
s

 

[ddrueding]

I picked lettuce for a week when I was in 10th grade for a paper I was writing on this very subject. Besides blowing out my back every day, I nearly cut off my left hand with the knife you need to use. Having the options I have, I wouldn't pick lettuce at any price.

However, when I was in Australia, I picked apples for 2 weeks. I don't know if I was getting minimum wage or not, but it was certainly illegal. There I didn't have much choice; I just needed some more cash to finish my vacation and was out of options. On the same trip I worked a day and a half in a computer gaming center in Singapore and made about the same. Definatly a better option.

My opinion is this: so what if it triples the cost of produce, that will still reduce the overall cost of the situation. I try not to sound racist, but the situation is so frustrating that I often find myself speaking in (fairly accurate) stereotypes.

 

[jtr1962]

If we really wanted to seal off the Mexican border we could. Fact is that we don't because big business likes cheap labor. As I mentioned in another thread my friend's taximeter business has to compete with others hiring $1 an hour labor. Short answer is he can't legally, and if not for the out of town business he would have been out of business long ago. The New York end of it is dead thanks to a ready supply of people willing to work for substandard wages. I suppose when you come from Mexico even $1 an hour seems like a fortune, and you'll get twenty of these people renting a small, crappy apartment for maybe $800 a month, and taking turns sleeping. Some of them even manage to send money back home doing this by working two $1 an hour jobs. It may not seem like much, but if someone comes here, lives like shit, and sends home $100 a month to his family it can make a huge difference in their lives. This is why unless we close our borders the problem won't go away. While I'm somewhat sympathetic to the poverty problem Mexico faces, it is best solved by helping Mexico develop a better economy, and by controlling the population. In large part uncontrolled reproduction is the root of the problem. Mexico currently needs to double their infrastructure every twenty years just to maintain the same level of poverty. The problems they face would go largely away if they aimed for zero or negative population growth.

The argument I've often heard is if we get rid of the immigrant labor you'll have a hard time finding people willing to take their place, and to some extent this is true. You're not going to get most Americans to pick lettuce at all for any wage, let alone for $10 a day. However, you have alternatives. You can have welfare recipients do this in payment for their benefits. The government will get a certain amount from the businesses employing these people, the recipients will learn that there's no free ride, and perhaps after a few weeks picking lettuce in return for meager welfare benefits they might actually think that maybe this isn't a good way to live, and look for a regular job. And if they don't show for work you cut their benefits off (including their Medicaid). Inmates represent another largely uptapped cheap labor poor. Make them work to help pay for their incarceration, and perhaps even take time off their sentence if they excel in their work. And don't forget that robotics will probably eliminate the need for cheap labor competely in a decade or two. You buy an android for maybe $50K, and it can work 24 hours a day, never needs breaks, only requires electricity, and won't get sick, pregnant, drunk, high, or go on strike. It can do the job of four $1 an hour immigrants, and pay for itself in a few years. After that it's all gravy. The ideal worker.

As for the gang problem, I wasn't aware of the extent of it. I'm half serious when I say maybe we should give out hunting licences for gang members, or perhaps put a bounty on them (to be paid when the person's body is delivered). You solve the problem without law enfrocement getting involved at all.

 

[Clocker]

Thanks Greg. I appreciate your sympathy. The killing was not gang related AFAIK as we don't have any known 'gangs' in SH and crime here is not a problem. I'm viewing Officer Sawyers death as a cold calculated murder. Here are some fun facts about my great city:

Sterling Heights is the third largest in area and the fifth largest in population in the state of Michigan. Sterling Heights has a population of approximately 127,000 people living within 36.8 square miles. It is the fastest growing city of over 100,000 population in Michigan -- increasing by 1.4% according to the United States Census Department.

Sterling Heights is home to more than 3,500 commercial and industrial businesses. Sterling Heights is located just 20-35 minutes northeast of downtown Detroit in the county of Macomb.


Other Sterling Heights facts:


Sterling Heights ranks as the ninth safest city in the United States and the safest city in Michigan based on F.B.I. statistics (Governmentguide, 2002).
Sterling Heights' City Center is one of America's Great Community Places and Public Spaces (Project for Public Spaces, a national nonprofit education organization, 2002).
Sterling Heights is the second safest city in America in which to live (Business Development Outlook, August 2001 National Quality of Life rankings)
Rated an A+ and ninth best "Family Friendly" suburban city in the United States (Population Connection, a Washington, D.C. nonprofit environmental organization).
The 2000 Census shows Sterling Heights to be one of the top communities in the country where children live in a married-couple family.

Sterling Heights is honored as the 14th Safest American City according to the Morgan Quitno Awards' 2002 9th Annual Safest Cities.
Sterling Heights is ranked as the 2nd best Michigan city and the 16th best American city for women to live and work (Ladies Home Journal, March 2002).
The City of Sterling Heights' municipal organization named one of the Best Places to Work in Metro Detroit (Crain's Detroit Business, 1999)
Sixteen consecutive Distinguished Annual Budget Presentation Awards (Government Finance Officers Association).
Fifteen consecutive Certificate of Achievement for Excellence in Annual Financial Reporting Awards (Government Finance Officers Association) for the city's Comprehensive Annual Financial Report(audit).
Six consecutive Excellence in Popular Annual Financial Reporting Awards (Government Finance Officers Association) for the city's Annual Report/City Calendar.
Sterling Heights' Virtual City Hall www.sterling-heights.net earned the 2003/04 Golden Web Award from the International Association of Webmasters and Designers (IAWMD) for excellence in design, originality and content.
Sterling Heights' Virtual City Hall www.sterling-heights.net was named a "Top Pick" among municipal Web sites by MuniNet Guide and Review in 2003.
Sterling Heights' Virtual City Hall www.sterling-heights.net earned an APEX Award for Publication Excellence in 2002 for Most Improved Website.
Sterling Heights Television (SHTV, Comcast Channel 5 and Wide Open West Channel 10) twice named "Best in the Nation" for government access programming.
SHTV and staff were honored with 18 Aegis Awards of Broadcast Excellence in 2002 and 14 Aegis Awards in 2001.
SHTV and staff were honored with a APEX Award for Publication Excellence in 2002 for a Police Department Training Video.
The Community Relations Department's Print Shop and staff received an Award of Recognition in 2002 by Printing Industries of America, Inc. for its outstanding printing of the city’s Emergency Planning Practices in the Internal Communication Pieces category.
The city's unique Family Emergency Preparedness Workbook published by the Office of Emergency Management earned the prestigious Grand APEX Award for Publication Excellence in 2002.
For the past eleven years Sterling Heights has maintained the lowest combined water and sewer rates in Michigan.
Sterling Heights has been named a Tree City USA annually since 1985 (Arbor Day Foundation).
Over 95% of our city department heads have post-graduate degrees.
Sterling Heights is home of Michigan's first ISO 14001 facility - Ford Motor Company's Van Dyke Plant.
The city's Millennium Citizen Survey, a 1999 American Crown Communities Award Winner, is the largest municipal survey in Michigan history with a 39% return ratio.
According to the Millennium Survey...
96.5% say city government is excellent or good

98.1% say city services are excellent or good

98.4% say Sterling Heights' neighborhoods are an excellent or good place to raise a family

99.2% say the city's quality of life is excellent or good

The city of Sterling Heights is below average in the number of fires and fire loss nationwide. The national average is 6.7 fires per 1,000 people with an average loss of $34.70 per person. In Sterling Heights the average number of fires per 1,000 people is 3.76 with a loss per person of only $16.52.
The 2003-2004 millage rate of 10.625 represents the eighth year in a row that the tax rate has been lowered. The millage rate is now at its lowest level in 30 years or since 1974.
Incorporated as the City of Sterling Heights on July 1, 1968.
There are more than 384 miles of roadway in Sterling Heights. The city maintains 309.40 miles.
Won national recognition for its "Sidewalk Inspection Program" which uses meter readers to report hazardous sidewalk conditions.
There are 51 voting precincts in Sterling Heights and more than 79,100 registered voters.
The boundaries for Sterling Heights are, Dequindre to the west, M-59 to the north, Hayes to the east and 14 Mile Road to the south (36.8-square-miles total).
The city purchases its water from the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department. The water comes from two sources, the Detroit River and/or Lake Huron near Port Huron.
99 percent of our residents receive city water, less than one percent remain on wells.
Sanitary sewage goes to the Detroit Water and Sewerage system, where it is treated before entering the Detroit River.
Our refuse is collected by a private contractor, Waste Management, and hauled to the Pine Tree Acres Landfill in Lenox Township (29 Mile and Gratiot).
City motto: To Strive on Behalf of All.
Official Flower: Lavender Rose.
Official Tree: Chanticleer Pear.

 

[sechs]

I'm not jazzed when 400,000 visas are approved to bring in more tech workers from India, so they can drive the existing job market value down, and Kalifornia workers are deprived of a living wage.

They've solved this by simply sending the people back to India and outsourcing their old jobs to them. Costs less than half as much, and you don't have to work around the immigration crap.

 

[mubs]

It's not just IT work. EKGs are sent there for diagnosis. Financial analysts there do the leg work for Wall Street analysts. Lawyers there do pre-trial discoveries etc. for cases here.

I don't think it will ever stop; this "globalization" thing has structurally changed the economy. It's not what it was, say, 15-20 years ago.

Supposedly, though, things will change for the better for experienced, senior, manager types. The baby boomers have started to retire, and that trend will accelerate, leaving a critical shortage of the aforementioned experienced, senior, manager types. Since supply is scarce, they will supposedly be ably to get a better deal - similar to what the autoworkers got in the post WW-II boom. We'll have to see.

The other thing the inevtiable demographic trend will do is put immense pressure on healthcare. That's good (for those in the industry) and bad (who's going to pay for it). America will begin to age.