New DVD Player

[Handruin]

I've finally given up on my dying Kenwood DVD player because it won't play most of the DVD's and also the ones that come from netflix. I tried cleaning the lens, but this didn't help. (I physically opened the unit and cleaned it, but no luck)

So, today I went out and bought the pioneer DV 565A-S after reading some good reviews on it. Most people liked the fact that it is capable of playing SACD and DVD-audio. I don't have any media in either format, so I can't really say how well those features work.

I'm not jumping for joy based on my first impression of this new unit. The 5.1 and DTS audio are leaving a lot to be desired. I think I'm going to reconnect my Kenwood just to see if my ears are deceiving me. I can get some of my DVD's to work in the Kenwood, so it should be interesting.

Now I don't know how much DVD players fluctuate in audio performance, but all I did was swap units from my home theater setup. Unplug my set of cables and reconnected them to the new player. (I'm using a fiber option connection only) I made sure to enable DD 5.1 and DTS in the new unit, and then I began testing.

My Yamaha received auto detects the audio format, so I know it was running in 5.1 and DTS correctly. But for some reason I felt the vocals were very flat, and had no dynamic range to them. It almost seemed like they were too quiet. The music sounded good coming from the left and right speakers, but I felt like the audio, just didn't sound good. I also feel like the color isn't very accurate. I watched a bit of Finding Nemo today and the fish was much closer to red than orange. Despite the strange coloring, I did notice a bit more detail and better contrast over the Kenwood.

The Kenwood unit is the only DVD player I've ever owned prior to this pioneer. I had the unit since mid 2000 and I wonder if I've grown to accustom to it's coloring on DVD audio? I made sure that neither of the players had any sound enhancements enabled. I also leave the environmental effects disabled from my Yamaha. I'm going to run through a few more DVD's on the pioneer to see if I'm over-reacting. I may end up returning it.

I know a few of you are into the home theater area and I was curious what DVD payers you would recommend in the $200 range. (I might consider more if you think the performance is noticeable) A single disc is fine by me, and I don't need DD and DTS decoders in the units. I was happy the pioneer played DVD-R and DVD-RW without any issues, so having those features is much appreciated. I've tried searching the avs forum, but they don't typically discuss the "cheap'o" units. (I don't really think $200 is cheap, but in their eyes I'm sure it is)

I think part of my problem is that I'm limiting my self to a brick and mortar shop. I don't like shipping things to my apartment unless it comes USPS, because UPS and FedEx leave packages with neighbors I don't even know...but if there is a DVD player worth buying, I'll consider shipping it elsewhere to go pick it up.

If it matters (for recommendations) my home theater is fairly basic. (I sure it'll make a few of you audiophiles cringe)

I have:
one broken Kenwood DV303 & a none-impressive pioneer DV 565A-S
Yamaha RX-V496 receiver 5.1 & DTS 70x5 Watts
Left & Right speakers are Cambridge Soundworks Model 6.
Center Channel is CSW Center Stage
L&R rear are Boston Acoustics HD5's
Subwoofer is CSW Base cube 10S
TV is a Sony 27" Wega

 

[Mercutio]

You have better DACs on your Receiver. Your DVD player should be outputting the AC3/DTS stream unmolested AFAIK, and only doing the decoding if you're using stereo or 6ch. analog connections.

By the way, if you want to listen to SACD or DVD-A, you HAVE to use the 6ch. analog. There's no digital transport for highres audio on anything in consumerland.

There's rarely any noticeable difference among consumer hardware at roughly the same price ponit, at least for audio. You might be able to make a comparison between a $50 player and a $200 (and for video output, you certainly could) one but I don't think I could tell a difference between two $200 ones.

One of the things I think might be going on is that your old unit might've done some sort of crappy DSP effect on its output. I've certainly seen that on other DVD players. Of course, you said they're off, but it's still the first thing I think of.

Are you sure your receiver isn't in "midnight mode"? A lot of receivers have a feature to flatten out dynamics (for example, in consideration of nearby sleeping spouses etc).

As for recommendationsL I have a JVC 7 disc changer that handles DVD-As well enough for my needs. I have several Sony ES DVD jukeboxes. Sony makes a lower-end 400 disc changer that's $250 cheaper than anything I have and, from your perspective, is only different for lacking a second set of AV outputs, and the control interface that lets one daisy-chain boxes together.

I'll look model numbers if you really want me to.

Also, SACDs are really REALLY worth at least one listen. I don't know enough about your musical tastes to make recommendations, but don't go chucking that player until you've listened to one or two.

 

[Handruin]

So, by what you're saying, the digital stream coming out of the pioneer should not be affected by anything because of the nature of the connection? I'm not use analog connections to my receiver. I'm wondering if the Kenwood did color the sound and now I'm hearing plain old DD5.1 for the first time...

Let me ask this:

The DVD player has the options for
Dolby Digital
Dolby Digital > PCM

I selected Dolby Digital
----
It also has options for
DTS
DTS > PCM

I selected DTS
---
Linear PCM Out
Down Sample On
Down Sample Off

I selected Down Sample On
---
Audio Output Mode
2 Channel
5.1 Channel

I selected 5.1 Channel
---
There is an option for the "midnight mode" you mention on the pioneer, but I disabled it. I'm not sure it is exactly the same thing, but they call it "Audio DRC Dynamic Range Control". They say it's used to enhance lost sounds at low volumes because some audio can be lost or not heard. I've not seen a "midnight mode" option on my Yamaha, but I'll revisit the book just to make sure.

It also has a "Virtual Surround" option which I also left disabled. Even if it wasn't disabled, the manual says it is only output through the analog connection which I'm not using.

My Kenwood has it's own version of virtual surround which I'm almost positive was disabled. It sounded like crap when I tried it a couple years ago.

Let me ask a dumb question...I can't listen to DVD-A using my fiber connection? I need to connect those 6 different analog cables to my receiver for this??

As for the JVC unit you mentioned. I know you recommended a JVC a while back, but I couldn't find it for sale any longer. (last time I saw it at crutchfield) I'll try to find an SACD to listen too before I make a decision.

 

[Mercutio]

You can't use a digital connection - TOSLink (that's fibre) or SP/DIF (that's the coaxial version) for high-res audio. It's a form of copy protection; content producers pretty much demanded it, to keep people from recording full-quality high-res audio. If you want to listen to those sources, you HAVE to use the analog outputs.
If you pay enough money, yes, there are components that will use SP/DIF, and there are other high-end units that support Firewire as a transport, but only because the digital signal on the cable is then encrypted before it leaves your player.

It's exactly as much bullshit as it sounds like.

Anyway, I don't know if it will make much difference, but turning off PCM downsampling is probably a good thing. I'm guessing that probably resamples 48kHz PCM to 44.1kHz; I'm sure that's its own special kind of mangling.

 

[Mercutio]

A couple of SACD suggestions.

Epics - a collection of familiar movie themes. I like the Lord of the Rings bit in the middle of the disc. It's not a spatial showcase, just a pretty cool disc. It's a hybrid SACD, which means it'll play in a regular CD player if you decide you don't need to go upscale.

Rainbow Body.
The thing I like most about this disc is the fact that two of the pieces were composed in this century, something that I don't see very often in classical music. Anyway, Handy, I remember that you fired up Appalachian Spring when we were trying to get streaming MP3 to work, and this is an excellent recording of that particular piece. "Blue Cathedral" is really marvelous in 6 channels. The Barber piece might take a little work to appreciate for someone who isn't into classical music, though.

I know the SACD that my oldest brother is in love with is "Dark Side of the Moon", so if you're at all into Pink Floyd, that's probably a good choice, too.

On the DVD-A side: Blue Man Group's Audio is absolutely unreal. Music literally pans across all five channels, and the net effect is a LOT like seeing one of their shows live. Of course, you have to be into their very unusual percussive instruments...

 

[Pradeep]

The problem with using SP/DIF for DVD-Audio is that it doesn't have the bandwidth to support 5.1 channels of high quality audio. It just wasn't designed for it. Firewire of course has no such problems. Yes there is a bunch of copy protection crap in there too, but you could always record the 6 channels of analog out if you were hardcore. I notice some of the high end Pioneer receivers now have FW inputs for single connection DVD-Audio playback. Plus WMA playback via digital input for watching WM-9 HD on your home theatre without using 6 analog cables. That'll filter down to the mainstream in a while.

I was happy with the Cyberhome 500, good region free options and PAL on NTSC playback. However my current 500 is very finicky, doesn't always make it thru a movie without dieing. Fortunately it just made if thru Buffy Season 7. Apparently the Momitsu 880V is a sweet DVD player, has DVI output where you can select resolution (including projector rezs), multi region etc. And they are bringing out a new one with network capability. Around $250 I believe.

 

[Mercutio]

Er, that's what the consumer electronics companies are SAYING. I don't necessarily believe it. I have read that there are at least a couple of high end ($3000 single-disc models) units that'll do DVD Audio over "normal" SP/DIF cables.


Unfortunately, google is not being my friend right now and I can't find any more info than that.

I pretty much refuse to believe that they couldn't re-purpose that fibre connection to accomodate the bandwidth needed, at the very least. Nope. It's just to restrict consumer rights. Not that I'm worried. Eventually some hacker will get annoyed enough and we'll have a quick way around it.

 

[Pradeep]

Well if they fiddle with the Toslink spec etc, that would mean you would need a new receiver to understand it. In which case you might as well get one with FW inputs. With the introduction of the HDMI connector I believe most CE manufacturers will prob switch to that or i-link as the digital output of choice for DVD Audio players. All the others use some proprietary connection (Meridian 861 @ $16,000 etc). Even the 861 uses three co-ax connectors for the digital DVD-A link.

http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/meridian_861/index.html

 

[Handruin]

I had some more time to tinker with the DVD player today. Yesterday I wasn't around much...it was Laura's b-day. Tonight I spent some time adjusting the audio levels for each speaker. I noticed I had set the center channel fairly high compared to the L&R. The back speakers were a bit high also.

I adjusted them all to the same level and then my sub became too loud. I definitely think the sound is different between the two DVD players. I listed to Star Wars Phantom Menace 5 times between each player. I left the volume the same on both DVD players and there was a difference with the Pioneer that I can't quite put my finger on.

It's too late now for me to turn up the volume. (damn neighbors) Tomorrow evening I'll spend more time at higher volumes. With the speaker levels matched on the Pioneer, I'm now hearing better separation between the speakers. Sounds seem to be better positioned in the front, however I find vocals to be a bit low. If I didn't live in an apartment, I'd leave the volume high enough to make the vocals louder, but usually what ends up happening is the music and sound effects become to loud that I worry my neighbors will start complaining. (the sub does rattle the hell out of the blinds)

I don't know if most 5.1 setups are the same way, but my rear speakers don't have the same tone quality as the fronts when sound passes to them. I completely understand they are different brand speakers, but the clarity in the rear isn't that great. How do most people position their rear speakers? Mine are facing the front speakers...I don't know if that is correct. Should they be pointing in from the L&R sides of the room instead?

Thanks for the DVD-A suggestions. I don't know if I'll be able to fully appreciate the format unless I go out an purchase 6 new cables to connect the audio out into my receiver. (since it won't work through the TOSLink) I would like to get the Blue Man Group disc you mentioned, that sounds interesting.

 

[Howell]

The clarity of any speaker is determined by the source material. I feel most rear sound in movies is a little flat because it is usually amient sounds coming from those speakers. More clarity would an unwanted positional effect. Like when you hear a lot of crickets outside. You can't tell where they are.

You want the listeners within the cone of sound so I'd point the center line of the speakers at the middle of you seating arraingment . The cone of sound is different from the cone of silence.

You should look into investing in the Avia Guide to Home Theater Home theater information and setup DVD if not just for the peace of mind that you aren't missing anything.

 

[Pradeep]

Right now I have my rear speakers behind the couch, facing in to me. Once I get an extra speaker or two, I will put them directly behind me, for the center rear channel. I find I get a better sense of depth when the surround speakers are behind me, as opposed to being directly to the left and right of the viewing position.

 

[Howell]

I should have said that I have the side speakers placed in a box pattern with the sitting area shifted a bit toward the rear. All speakers point at the listeners. Occasionally I'll point a rear speaker into the kitchen and change the DSP setting to "all channel" for music when I'm doing dishes; but that's not really relevant here.

I agree with the sense of depth Pradeep speaks of.

 

[Mercutio]

It depends a great deal on the acoustics of the room you're in. The only thing you can do is experiment. My greatroom (kitchen/dining/livingroom) is arranged in such a way that it was easy to get something similar to the "standard" a 5.1 arrangement (center straight-on, L/R at +- 30 degrees, surrounds at +- 110). My speakers (KEF reference series: 204C center, 205 towers for L/R and 206s for surrounds) have a very, very wide "sweet spot", so I'm lucky enough to have a fairly large area where I have a full surround effect. I use full-range dipolar surrounds. I think that really helps make the surrounds shine in comparison to other ways I've had my stereo set up.

My less-fancy HT setup, the one in my bedroom, uses four basically identical Acoustic Research speakers for left-right and surround. There, yeah, I only have a very small area where I get a surround effect, but it was even worse before I played a bit and discovered that pointing my left-surround speaker at the wall behind my head, rather than at my head (i.e. it's in a corner, and its grille is facing the opposing wall rather than the center of the room) gave me better sound.

 

[Mercutio]

Also, Handy, you don't need to buy a $50 "6 channel analog cable" if you just want try listening to an SACD; stop by a Kmart or even a Walgreens and pick up three $3 pairs of stereo audio cables (the red and white guys). I don't think I'd be insulting if I said you aren't in a place where cable quality is going to make a difference for you.