Smoking

Groltz

My demeaning user rank is
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
1,295
Location
Pierce County, WA
Here is a snip that I've taken from some energy activist's web page:

A study done by a Center for Disease Control scientist indicated that up to 95% of cancers contracted by cigarette smokers could be due to radioactive polonium-210 that comes from commercial fertilizers used on tobacco. A 1-1/2 pack a day smoker receives the equivalent of 300 chest X-rays a year
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
It is my understanding that plutonium is not a naturally occuring element on earth (It has to be manufactured in a reactor). I would be very surprised to find that any is contained within fertilizer. I do note, that some has escaped into the enviornment, but not enough to be detected in any commercial product with no association to military plutonium production.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,650
Location
I am omnipresent
Polonium is a distinct element from plutonium. #84 on the periodic table, atomic weight of 209. It's commonly used as a low-grade nuclear battery, since its radioactive emissions are of the sort that aren't generally harmful to, well, much of anything.

And yup, do we need any more reason to think that smoking is really, really awful for you?
 

Groltz

My demeaning user rank is
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
1,295
Location
Pierce County, WA
I posted the segment above just because I found it curious. Here is another one taken from here:
F.6. What is polonium?

Three different isotopes of polonium are included among the radon progeny. They are polonium-218, polonium-214 and polonium-210. These pernicious substances are responsible for most of the biological damage attributed to radon. In particular, polonium-214 and polonium-218, when inhaled, deliver massive doses of alpha radiation to the lungs, causing fibrosis of the lungs as well as cancer.

Animal studies have confirmed that polonium is extremely harmful, even in minute quantities. The 1988 BEIR-IV report states that polonium-210 is far more dangerous than plutonium at high exposure levels, is more or less equivalent to plutonium (which is five times more damaging than radium) at intermediate exposure levels, and approaches the toxicity of radium at very low exposure levels.

Because of the lichen-caribou food chain (mentioned in C.3), caribou in the arctic and in northern Saskatchewan have much higher levels of polonium-210 in their flesh than any other animals in North America. As a result, the Canadian Inuit have up to 80 times more polonium-210 in their bodies than other North American people do. Uranium mining can only exacerbate this situation, because increased amounts of airborne polonium-210 will be deposited on the lichen as fallout from the tailings and from abandoned ore bodies.

There is growing evidence that polonium-210 inhaled in tobacco smoke is responsible for much of the biological damage caused by cigarettes. Autopsies show that smokers have higher levels of polonium-210 in their lungs than non-smokers. Animal studies show that polonium-210 in the lungs is a superb carcinogen. From the lungs, polonium can also enter the bloodstream; the resulting radiation damage to blood vessels can eventually lead to blocked arteries, causing strokes and heart attacks.

and here:
"Tobacco fields in the U.S. have been fertilized with the
radioactive tailings from uranium mines, resulting in a tremendous
increase in the incidence of lip, mouth, throat, and lung cancer. If you
do not believe it, just look at the incidence of lung cancer per capita
before 1950 and compare it to the lung cancer per capita at the present
time."

The second one is from an especially sensationalistic source.
 

Tea

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,749
Location
27a No Fixed Address, Oz.
Website
www.redhill.net.au
The quote said polonium, which is, as I recall, one of the two radioactive elements that the Curies discovered during their pioneering work. Marie Curie expected that one of the two would prove to be more useful and therefore named it after her native Poland - hence "polonium". Alas for her, it turned out that the other one was more use to science and became better known. It was called "radium".

I was going to say that polonium is not a naturally occuring substance either, but then I realised that it must be - otherwise the Curies, in those pre-reactor days, could not have discovered it in the first place. I seem to recall that they extracted it from pitchblend deposits (whatever a pitchblend deposit is).
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
21,650
Location
I am omnipresent
Groltz - polonium is an alpha particle emitter.

When I took chemistry in high school, one of the things my instructor imprinted on me is that, as long as you don't eat them, alpha particles aren't terribly harmful. They're stopped by things like skin and clothing.

Except, guess what smokers are doing?
 

Jake the Dog

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
895
Location
melb.vic.au
James said:
Jake the Dog said:
/me raises hand - yes, i'm a social smoker.
Never understood that idea, myself.

i can so no, but don't. i know the risks. i used to be a regular 15-20 a day smoker but i've managed to slow down to the poiunt that i only ever smoke around other smokers or wwhn out my my friends for example. at those times i have a strong desire to smoke but now, as i type this, i haven't; had a smoke for about 3 days and dn;t feel liek one either. i probably won't have a cigarette until saturday night. i know it's hard to understand for both smokers and non-smoker alike but that's how it works for me...
 

James

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
844
Location
Sydney, Australia
My idea of a pleasant social situation doesn't include me coughing more or less continuously through the whole occasion and then having my clothes smell of smoke for days afterwards. But that's just me. :wink:

Seriously though, I don't understand how smoking is a social activity unless you count those people who stand around in little groups outside office buildings smoking (in the freezing cold during winter, too). Just seems weird to me. You could have the get-together without the smoking, you could have the smoking without the get-together - I don't see that makes it okay to link them together. *shrug*
 

slo crostic

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
Jul 29, 2002
Messages
152
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Yes I am a smoker, and have been for about 10 years.
I smoked 'cancer sticks' for nearly 5 years, mainly "Peter Jackson" or "Marlboro", until I started to become aware of what was in them.

So then I changed to 'roll your own' tobacco. IMHO, rolly tobacco gives you a much more satisfying cigarette, that you can sit back and enjoy, much like a cigar, whereas 'Taylor Made' cigarettes are a "quick fix" for the nicotine addict. Although, one shouldn't be fooled by any rolly tobacco! Marlboro and Winfield have tobaccos on the market in Australia and these tobaccos are as unsatisfying, and possibly chemical-ridden, as their 'pre-rolled' cigarettes.

I have gone from "smoking" 30-35 'cancer sticks' a day to "enjoying" 5-10 'rollies' a day, and I feel much healthier for it.
Now I don't mean to say that smoking is not harmful, and sometimes I don't like the fact that I smoke, but I like to think of my approach as 'harm minimisation'

All said and done I will kick the habit one of these days, just because I don't like being tied to an addiction, especially one as socially unacceptable as smoking has become.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,191
Location
Flushing, New York
Tea said:
I seem to recall that they extracted it from pitchblend deposits (whatever a pitchblend deposit is).

Pitchblend is uranium ore.

BTW, do we really need any more reasons for people not to smoke? I'm glad NYC is getting even tougher on smokers. They just raised the cigarette tax to $5/pack(until neighboring states, or better yet the whole country, follows suit this will just mean many smokers will just illegally buy cheaper out-of-state cigarettes online). Smoking has already been banned in most work places and restaurants(except for small designated smoking areas). They want to ban it completely in all businesses, including night clubs, which is naturally causing the club owners to file a lawsuit. Amazing how people are wasting time defending something that has no redeeming value whatsoever, and is responsible for much of our health care expenses. As the mayor put it, you have the right to kill yourself by smoking, but not the right to kill others with your second hand smoke. If I was mayor, I think I would have banned smoking in any public place, such as sidewalks and streets, so that basically the only place you could smoke would be in your home. Putting aside the second hand smoke problem, smokers also have a penchant for throwing their cigarette butts everywhere except the trash.

Tea, didn't Tannin mention somewhere that he smokes? Do you make him go outside when he does? :nono: Just curious. If any of the humans where I live smoked, I would claw at them until they went outside. I may only be six pounds, but when I get pissed off, watch out. :evil:
 

Tannin

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
4,448
Location
Huon Valley, Tasmania
Website
www.redhill.net.au
I'm surprised that so many people fall for the health care expenses myth. It is propaganda pure and simple. The anti-smoking movement has plenty of good, factual evidence for its case, and no need whatever to make up lies, and yet the witch-hunting mania this last decade or two is such that this one is almost never challenged. And yet, as soon as you subject the figures to rational analysis, it becomes apparent that they are pure hokum. Complete rubbish.

The fundamental, and quite gross, error in the "smoking costs the community a lot of money via the health care budget" lie is simple: it calculates the health care costs for the average smoker and fails to calculate the opportunity cost. The concept of opportunity cost is one of the most fundamental parts of economics. There are two costs involved with building a freeway, for example. The first cost is the up-front cost: the price of the land, the concrete, the wages for the guy who drives the bulldozer, and so on. The second cost is the cost of whatever it was that was forgone in order to build the road. (Using the land to grow crops on, building a railway, a park, whatever.) When you buy a new car, the up-front cost is the $30,000 on the price-sticker, the opportunity cost is the other thing you didn't do with the money - pay off your mortgage, invest in some superannuation, whatever.

Once you obey the rules of economics and calculate the total health care costs of smoking to the community, it becomes clear that the "smokers cost us a lot of money" arguement is utterly worthless.

It is easy to tot up health care costs for smokers, and easy to show that these costs are truly enormous. But they are dwarfed by the health care costs of non-smokers. (I'm assuming here that the average smoker dies relatively young of a smoking-related illness, and that the average non-smoker lives to a ripe old age. In reality, of course, these are merely statistical probabilities, and this generalisation is only true on a whole-of-population basis. There are pleny of individual exceptions. These do not, however, invalidate the overall rule.)

As compared with non-smokers, smokers tend to die younger and die more rapidly. The cost of caring for 55 year old cancer victim during a three year illness is indeed enormous. But it is small indeed by comparison with that person's twin brother who does not smoke and lives to be 75 before he eventually dies of some other cause. On average, the longer someone lives, the more they cost the community. Most smokers live long enough to complete their working lives, pay their fair share of income taxes, make their contribution to society. But (on average) they die while still relatively young, and of a relatively simple combination of conditions.

Non-smokers, on the other hand, also tend to live long enugh to pay their full share of income taxes and retire at the statutory age, but then go on living for a considerably longer time, gradually decaying and costing the community more and more as the years go by. And the older they get (on average) the more expensive it becomes to care for them. Much of this care is, of course, paid for by their families - if you add in the countless hours involved in caring for an elderly and infirm loved one as if you were paying someone to do it for you (which is the correct way to calculate anything in economic terms), the cost is astronomical. Ever tried looking after someone with Alzhiemers? Elderly people gradually fade away, making ever more frequent trips to the hospital, and health care for them in their final years is terribly, terribly difficult (read expensive) because every time you (say) perform a small operation, you have a severe risk of introducing complications. The whole body is frail, and anything invasive is liable to set off a whole series of side effects which must be dealt with in turn. From the cold-hearted point of view of an economist, it would be much cheaper to have them die relatively rapidly of lung cancer or something similar at an earlier age. It would be conveinient, economically speaking, if they were to pop off toward the end of, or shortly after their productive working lives. It would be most cost-effective, in other words, if they all smoked.

I don't mind it if people say how much they dislike smoking (I have been known to not smoke for years at a time myself), nor if people bring up sensible, logical reasons to oppose it. But I get really pissed off when otherwise intelligent people fail to examine the claims made in the media and fall hook, line and sinker for such an obvious lie.

If the anti-smoking movement wants to get serious and actually persuade anyone with enough intelligence to balance a chequebook, then the first thing it has to do is put its own house in order and start getting its facts straight, start examining its propaganda and throwing out (however reluctantly) the obvious untruths. The net effect of the health care cost lie is to demonstrate to anyone of moderate intelligence that the anti-smoking lobby is no more to be trusted as a source of reliable information than the Rothmans publicity department, or the Phillip Morris marketing newsletter.

If you want to be believed, then you have to tell the truth all the time.
 

Cliptin

Wannabe Storage Freak
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
1,206
Location
St. Elmo, TN
Website
www.whstrain.us
Tannin said:
It is easy to tot up health care costs for smokers, and easy to show that these costs are truly enormous. But they are dwarfed by the health care costs of non-smokers. (I'm assuming here that the average smoker dies relatively young of a smoking-related illness, and that the average non-smoker lives to a ripe old age. In reality, of course, these are merely statistical probabilities, and this generalisation is only true on a whole-of-population basis. There are pleny of individual exceptions. These do not, however, invalidate the overall rule.)

Somehow an assumption turned into a rule. Enough smokers live long into their 60s and 70s to be significant. Coupled with the decreased productivity and longevity of the second-hend smokers and I believe the economic analysis rings true.
 

Cliptin

Wannabe Storage Freak
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
1,206
Location
St. Elmo, TN
Website
www.whstrain.us
James said:
Seriously though, I don't understand how smoking is a social activity unless you count those people who stand around in little groups outside office buildings smoking (in the freezing cold during winter, too). Just seems weird to me. You could have the get-together without the smoking, you could have the smoking without the get-together - I don't see that makes it okay to link them together. *shrug*

Psychology can be a powerful thing. Did you know it only takes three people looking up at the sky at nothing to get other people to stop and look at what you are not looking at. Where's PeeWee when we need him?
 

slo crostic

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
Jul 29, 2002
Messages
152
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Just thought of a point you may like to ponder Tannin. If polonium can be added to cigarettes with people being none the wiser, then the age expectancy of a smoker can be reduced significantly further, ie: even greater economic profit.
 

Pradeep

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
3,845
Location
Runny glass
We recently banned smoking in the clubhouse at the shooting club I belong to. It did cause a lot of grief from some of the older members, and we did lose a few of them because of it. Personally I'm not a rabid anti-smoking nut, it's just that as a member of the comittee, I had a duty of care to all the members to protect us from passive smoking lawsuits etc. Not to mention it being a much nicer place for younger kids and babies. And as James has already said, it's nice to not come home stinking of smoke, and with a taste in the back of your throat. We will be putting some kind of shelter outside for the smokers. A couple of them don't even smoke in their own house!
 

Pradeep

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
3,845
Location
Runny glass
jtr1962 said:
Tea said:
I'm glad NYC is getting even tougher on smokers. They just raised the cigarette tax to $5/pack(until neighboring states, or better yet the whole country, follows suit this will just mean many smokers will just illegally buy cheaper out-of-state cigarettes online).

So it's illegal to buy cigarettes via mail order? What about if you hire a big truck and drive to Virginia and fill it up with very cheap cigs, then come back to NYC? Is that illegal?
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,191
Location
Flushing, New York
Tannin said:
Once you obey the rules of economics and calculate the total health care costs of smoking to the community, it becomes clear that the "smokers cost us a lot of money" arguement is utterly worthless.

As compared with non-smokers, smokers tend to die younger and die more rapidly. The cost of caring for 55 year old cancer victim during a three year illness is indeed enormous. But it is small indeed by comparison with that person's twin brother who does not smoke and lives to be 75 before he eventually dies of some other cause. On average, the longer someone lives, the more they cost the community. Most smokers live long enough to complete their working lives, pay their fair share of income taxes, make their contribution to society. But (on average) they die while still relatively young, and of a relatively simple combination of conditions.

What about health problems the smoker suffers prior to croaking? These include more missed days from work than non-smokers, and sometimes being unable to do their job(especially if it is physical), and then being reassigned to a less productive job, or perhaps even being eligible to collect disability payments. One could use similar arguments for alcoholism, drug addiction, amd obesity, just to make a point that smoking is not the only costly vice. Add up these other things, and you begin to see enormous costs for smokers versus non-smokers. In truth, there is no such thing as a complete non-smoker, and undoubtably a certain percentage of non-smokers' health problems are related to second-hand smoke.

Non-smokers, on the other hand, also tend to live long enugh to pay their full share of income taxes and retire at the statutory age, but then go on living for a considerably longer time, gradually decaying and costing the community more and more as the years go by. And the older they get (on average) the more expensive it becomes to care for them. Much of this care is, of course, paid for by their families - if you add in the countless hours involved in caring for an elderly and infirm loved one as if you were paying someone to do it for you (which is the correct way to calculate anything in economic terms), the cost is astronomical. Ever tried looking after someone with Alzhiemers? Elderly people gradually fade away, making ever more frequent trips to the hospital, and health care for them in their final years is terribly, terribly difficult (read expensive) because every time you (say) perform a small operation, you have a severe risk of introducing complications. The whole body is frail, and anything invasive is liable to set off a whole series of side effects which must be dealt with in turn. From the cold-hearted point of view of an economist, it would be much cheaper to have them die relatively rapidly of lung cancer or something similar at an earlier age. It would be conveinient, economically speaking, if they were to pop off toward the end of, or shortly after their productive working lives. It would be most cost-effective, in other words, if they all smoked.

From an economic point of view, I agree it would be better if we could just pop someone off at the end of their working life, much like worker bees that wear out. Since we can both agree that's never going to happen anytime soon, I suggest that the problems you mention are due to the philosophy of Western health care, which ignores the value of keeping people healthy. Doctors will never suggest to an obese person to lose weight or change their diet(heaven forbid, they might get sued for hurting the person's feelings). Instead, they'll give them all manner of pills to help them cope with their "disability". So while we have people living longer, many of them are being kept alive artificially through very expensive intervention, and this is what is costing a fortune. Far better in my book to encourage people to stay healthy, and let medicine focus on treating non-preventable illnesses and accidents rather than keeping unhealthy people who won't invest time or effort in their health care alive artificially. There is really no reason for most people to gradually deteriorate as they age. In some cases, an unfortunate soul may get Alzheimers or cancer, but it is possible for most people to remain healthy and active into their 80's, 90's, and 100's. Perhaps towards the end the body may finally give out rather quickly(maybe after an illness), and death will come following only weeks of deterioration instead of years. There is even a school of thought that thinks that if you find the aging gene(s), or the ones that cause the rate of cell replication to go down as you age, and mask it's effects then life spans may be measured in millenia.

I don't mind it if people say how much they dislike smoking (I have been known to not smoke for years at a time myself), nor if people bring up sensible, logical reasons to oppose it. But I get really pissed off when otherwise intelligent people fail to examine the claims made in the media and fall hook, line and sinker for such an obvious lie.

A couple of other reasons I give are that it smells bad, makes me cough, can increase my chances of getting cancer, and creates litter. Also, people flicking ashes in my face from their cars while I'm bicycling is very annoying. Sure, smokers aren't the only ones who have a propensity to litter. The slobs who frequent fast food restaurants give them a run for their money, as do the dog owners who think it's perfectly OK if their pet uses your front lawn as a toilet. And I'll add anybody who drives(except an electric car) or flies to that list. The smell of air pollution is disgusting.

If the anti-smoking movement wants to get serious and actually persuade anyone with enough intelligence to balance a chequebook, then the first thing it has to do is put its own house in order and start getting its facts straight, start examining its propaganda and throwing out (however reluctantly) the obvious untruths. The net effect of the health care cost lie is to demonstrate to anyone of moderate intelligence that the anti-smoking lobby is no more to be trusted as a source of reliable information than the Rothmans publicity department, or the Phillip Morris marketing newsletter.

If you want to be believed, then you have to tell the truth all the time.

Putting aside the health car cost argument, there are valid reasons to discourage smoking. Banning it would probably be silly and ineffective, but if it is restricted solely to one's residence, then I have no problem with it. Frankly, I would rather have more laws restricting driving and flying since these represent a greater real threat to my health(and even the planet's).
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,191
Location
Flushing, New York
Pradeep said:
jtr1962 said:
I'm glad NYC is getting even tougher on smokers. They just raised the cigarette tax to $5/pack(until neighboring states, or better yet the whole country, follows suit this will just mean many smokers will just illegally buy cheaper out-of-state cigarettes online).

So it's illegal to buy cigarettes via mail order? What about if you hire a big truck and drive to Virginia and fill it up with very cheap cigs, then come back to NYC? Is that illegal?

Technically it is. I think it falls under the "evading sales tax" law. It also just about unenforceable, so I'm sure this is exactly what many smokers will do. The cops have better things to do right now than catch trucks filled with bootleg cigarettes, although they may from time to time just to make an example. So in essence, NYC just created a black market for cigarettes, same as existing drug laws created the drug cartels. Amazing how politicians think that something will go away if it is taxed enough or made illegal, isn't it? If we really want to reduce smoking, probably the best way is to make it seem "uncool", educate(truthfully) about the problems it does cause, and restrict it to a person's residence. Same goes for obesity and alcoholism.
 

SteveC

Storage is cool
Joined
Jul 5, 2002
Messages
789
Location
NJ, USA
Pradeep said:
jtr1962 said:
I'm glad NYC is getting even tougher on smokers. They just raised the cigarette tax to $5/pack(until neighboring states, or better yet the whole country, follows suit this will just mean many smokers will just illegally buy cheaper out-of-state cigarettes online).

So it's illegal to buy cigarettes via mail order? What about if you hire a big truck and drive to Virginia and fill it up with very cheap cigs, then come back to NYC? Is that illegal?

It's perfectly legal if you can prove that you will be the only one smoking them. It's the selling of out-of-state cigarettes that's illegal. I know some of my cousins drive to Jersey to get cigarettes. It's about $4.50 a pack compared to around $7.00 in NYC.

Steve
 

Sol

Storage is cool
Joined
Feb 10, 2002
Messages
960
Location
Cardiff (Wales)
I work at a service station across from a high school on the weekends so my imediate response to smokers tends to be one of two things.

1. Can I see some ID please?
2. What are you insane? you'll kill us all!

But I guess that's not entirly typical.
 

slo crostic

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
Jul 29, 2002
Messages
152
Location
Melbourne, Australia
jtr1962 said:
Pradeep said:
jtr1962 said:
I'm glad NYC is getting even tougher on smokers. They just raised the cigarette tax to $5/pack(until neighboring states, or better yet the whole country, follows suit this will just mean many smokers will just illegally buy cheaper out-of-state cigarettes online).

So it's illegal to buy cigarettes via mail order? What about if you hire a big truck and drive to Virginia and fill it up with very cheap cigs, then come back to NYC? Is that illegal?

Technically it is. I think it falls under the "evading sales tax" law. It also just about unenforceable, so I'm sure this is exactly what many smokers will do. The cops have better things to do right now than catch trucks filled with bootleg cigarettes, although they may from time to time just to make an example. So in essence, NYC just created a black market for cigarettes, same as existing drug laws created the drug cartels. Amazing how politicians think that something will go away if it is taxed enough or made illegal, isn't it? If we really want to reduce smoking, probably the best way is to make it seem "uncool", educate(truthfully) about the problems it does cause, and restrict it to a person's residence. Same goes for obesity and alcoholism.

There's a similar problem in Australia, and has been for some time, of illegal tobacco flooding the market. The problem is, this tobacco is being sold 'under the counter' in so many different stores (video shops, asian grocers, coffee shops, bookstores and at markets) that it is nearly impossible to police, and the only time they do something about it, is when they can bust a 5 or 10 ton haul. But, that's not the only problem.....

This is something I heard from a friends uncle, who used to be a tobacco farmer, and I believe to be true. But I can't seem to find much information about anywhere. Apparently the leaves of a tobacco plant need to be left attached to the stem until they turn a yellowish colour, and then they are ready for harvest. What the tobacco farmers do is 'thin the crop out' about 2 weeks before the government officials come 'round for harvest time. The proceeds of this 'thinning out' are green, or unripe tobacco leaves, which are quickly dried, chopped, and sent out to the shops and markets (for a tidy profit, presumably).
...And here's where the bad part starts, this unripe, unprocessed, tobacco is 7-8 times higher in carbon monoxide, which is the main ingredient in cigarette smoke that kills the air sacs in your lungs. Due to the governments overtaxing of cigarettes a lot of middle to low income people are now smoking this highly toxic crap, because they can't afford to pay $50-$80 a week to feed their addiction.
The really sad part is, none of them know about it.
 
Top