450D / 40D / 1DMkIII

ddrueding

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As mentioned in the massive DSLR thread of doom, I'm getting a second camera body.

I was thinking of a 1D MkIII over a 40D, but other than the inability to use my EF-S lenses and more weight, I'm not sure what I would be getting. Then I started looking at the 450D, and I'm not sure what I would be losing while gaining less weight and higher MP.

I'll probably be buying today, so I have about 7 hours before the store opens to research and make a decision. I'll be posting more here as I chew through this, but I would really like to hear from people who have used 2 or 3 of these cameras (I know Tannin and Lunar have all 3) about their experience regarding ease of use and IQ.

Thanks
 

ddrueding

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So far my largest complaint against the 450D is this:

On-screen settings adjustment

When pressed the camera's hard buttons activate an adjustment screen (on the LCD) where a setting change can be made using the cursor buttons. The style of adjustment is identical to the EOS 400D (except for a subtle color change). Options are changed using the arrow buttons (left / right / up / down), annoyingly (an inexplicably) you can't use the main dial to change on-screen settings.

(underline mine)
 

udaman

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Just about made up my mind, 450D, 17-85 IS, and a Gitzo GT0530.

why? why oh, why couldn't you have started this thread at least 24hrs before making your decision?

Given more time, I could link you to the pluses and minuses of the 450D vs 40D equation, but not on such short notice.

If you like the 20D, then go for the 40D, IMHO you'll not notice the 10MP vs 12MP difference. Since you haven't been in the store to actually hold these in your hands, do a test drive (you really should), you'll not be able to tell if some of those more subtle differences annoy you or not. Pentamirror in the 450D vs pentaprism in the 40D, think the 40d is slightly brighter (I love the big difference btw a FF 5D VF and smaller 40D), and the 40D has *much* faster continuous shooting, something like 3fps faster. 40D has some interchangeable focus screens too (would make a difference to me, cause one might work better with manually focusing, ie the TS lenses).

Why don't you just get a cheap canon Powershot A series (if you're still in Russia) for the remainder of the trip, and do like I was thinking. Buy a 450D @ CostCo, use it for a while, then return it, after buying a 40D and taking advantage of the instant $200 rebate, along with the stacking $50 upgrade rebate available for the 40D, which will bring the cost down to about the same price as the 450D body.

Gitzo is high quality, but you can get the decent Chinese copies, in carbon for the same price as the aluminum Gitzo. Manfro (sp?) has that unique adjustment you might consider useful to their line of tripods (will go get a link shortly).

http://www.manfrotto.com/Jahia/site/manfrotto
 

udaman

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As mentioned in the massive DSLR thread of doom, I'm getting a second camera body.

I was thinking of a 1D MkIII over a 40D, but other than the inability to use my EF-S lenses and more weight, I'm not sure what I would be getting. Then I started looking at the 450D, and I'm not sure what I would be losing while gaining less weight and higher MP.

I'll probably be buying today, so I have about 7 hours before the store opens to research and make a decision. I'll be posting more here as I chew through this, but I would really like to hear from people who have used 2 or 3 of these cameras (I know Tannin and Lunar have all 3) about their experience regarding ease of use and IQ.

Thanks

I don't believe either Tannin or LM have all three, ie the 450D (maybe older models the 450D replaced, but not the 450D as it has only been on the market for a few short months)

Q90 system, this is a sweet tripod (though expensive):

http://www.manfrotto.com/Jahia/site/manfrotto/cache/offonce/pid/16520/lang/en


I forget how tall you are, whether or not this is a limiting issue with some tripods that won't extend high enough for eye level setup while standing fully erect? Also don't recall which lenses you have, as to how sturdy/heave the tripod would need to be to support those tele lenses. Tanin or LM should be able to guide you, but on 7hrs notice, lol
 

udaman

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Almost forgot a potential deal breaker for you on the 450D, is that it has been 'dumbed' down yet again, as have all of the Rebel series, with a limited ISO1600 max. No Hi gain mode, no hack that I'm aware of that can get you 3200. Recall both Handy & you were using ISO3200 recently. With longer lenses, in order to get rock solid sharp images, sometimes you need to go to just a little faster shutter speed, can make a difference. Nikon D300 will go to 6400 (though IQ is not so great compared to the D3 at this level).
 

ddrueding

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Thanks for pointing out those issues uda, I do appreciate it. I did run across most of those while reading reviews @ DPreview and Digital Picture. You are right, I think both Tannin and Lunar have 400Ds and not 450Ds.

I know the MP difference isn't significant, but it seems they were able to make the increase without significantly more noise (due to the DigicIII?).

I know it doesn't have ISO3200, but really, good quality pictures @ ISO3200 are few and far between; I'd almost be better shooting at 1600 and underexposing.

The Pentamirror isn't as bright, and I look forward to test driving both of them at the store to see if this is a big deal.

The second screen on top was worrying at first, but when I visualized my use of the 20D, I don't think it will be significant.

I think my biggest concern is that the hand-grip position looks really small, but the thing that is swaying me most is that it weighs about half as much. Those are linked, and weight wins.

If I'm being silly, just let me know, and I'll get the 40D. But as far as IQ goes, they seem really close.
 

e_dawg

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Can't say I am an authority on Canons, but I am not a big fan of the Rebel series (350-450D). My friend has a 400D (Rebel XTi) and he consistently seems to have more problems with exposure and metering than I do. The grip is way too small, and you will notice it when you have a heavier lens attached. The LCD also isn't that great. The build quality is also lacking. The 40D is a semi-pro camera and built accordingly. The 450D is a consumer camera and is built to a noticeably lower standard of toughness.

The 40D seems to enjoy significant discounts these days compared to its launch price, and IMO represents a better deal than a new 450D, which is still at its fully marked-up launch price. In other words, you're paying a premium for the newness of the 450D. Despite the increase from 10-12 MP, there doesn't seem to be a noticeable improvement in image quality from the 400D (Rebel XTi).

IMO, if you're going to buy a camera in the Rebel series, I would strongly recommend against the 450D and would recommend the 400D instead at a lower price. There isn't anything of note the 450D does better than the 400D, and the price premium is not justified IMO. But if it were me, I would also wait for the 5D II above all. This is the Canon to get. There is nothing compelling about their current non-pro offerings IMO.

If I had to make a call: I'd either get the 400D or wait for the 5D II.
 

ddrueding

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For your info, I'm about 6'3" (6'4" with shoes).

But I don't really want a tripod that is exactly eye level. I'm torn between a small/light one that I am likely to carry often, and a serious overhead that (combined with Live View) will let me get shots I couldn't get any other way.
 

e_dawg

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IMO, one should have a long-term vision / plan for their camera equipment purchases. What camera / lens will you need / want in the future? Do the current offerings get you significantly closer to your ideal / desires?

As an example, an important long-term vision for me includes:

- IS, preferably in-body
- lightweight/compact
- good wireless remote flash system
- high quality compact zooms
- semi-pro f/4 lenses
- good AF tracking performance, including low light
- good low-light high ISO / low noise performance
- good metering and WB

So what does that mean in terms of bodies / lenses / systems?

- Canon and Olympus are attractive because of their fast semi-pro f/3.5 or f/4 zooms that are still relatively compact.
- Nikon has their awesome CLS wireless flash system built-in for their semi-pro bodies and up
- The D300 and up have phenomenal AF tracking performance and low-light high ISO performance
- Since I want lightweight & compact, moving to a full-frame body & lens set-up seems impractical unless they make them smaller

What do I have now?

Olympus and Nikon. Olympus because of their awesome fast & compact zoom lenses and in-body IS. Nikon for its flash system and knowing that the D300 AF and ISO performance will either trickle down to their lower priced bodies or maybe I'll just get the D300 when it comes down in price. If and when Nikon comes out with a bunch of f/4 semi-pro zooms, I may not need Olympus anymore.
 

ddrueding

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IMO, one should have a long-term vision / plan for their camera equipment purchases. What camera / lens will you need / want in the future? Do the current offerings get you significantly closer to your ideal / desires?

Great point, e_dawg.

I'm finding that I'm bringing my camera along on hikes and long walks, taking pictures as they present themselves. The reason I didn't get a PnS while finishing my trip in Russia is the lack of manual control and the poor image quality. I'm almost never caught out not having the settings right in a time-sensitive situation. If I'm late, it is due to having the wrong lens, and that is where having two bodies comes in.

I'm fairly certain I want as lightweight a DSLR Canon body as I can get, it makes me that much more likely to bring it in the first place. Then on the next big check I'll pick up a 1DmkIII on the big/pro side of things.
 

Gilbo

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If and when Nikon comes out with a bunch of f/4 semi-pro zooms, I may not need Olympus anymore.
I would love to see something in that genre from Nikon. The 16-85mm f/3.5-5.6 is a great start though. It seems to have above average performance. It's hard to tell with the latest, new lenses though. Everyone invariably raves about it or condemns it - you don't see a lot of carefully considered opinions.

ddreuding,
I know you've got Canon gear (a great choice by any standard), so what I'm following up with may seem superficially irrelevant, but I'm doing what e_dawg did, trying to explain my thought process. It might hit something that'll make a light bulb go off, but if not, I just want to demonstrate how you want to work backwards from a set of circumstances to determine what gear you should look at (particularly for your 2nd camera). Work backwards... don't think about how gear will augment your capabilities - (nearly) every single lens & body out there has something it's great at. You need to think about what you NEED from it...

For me, I had two separate needs.
1) I wanted a camera for candid portraits indoors.
My biggest consideration here was getting some outstanding portrait lenses.

I needed a lens that could get a close headshot at a comfortable and discrete distance, and I needed a wider lens that could take environmental portraits, and group shots. I ended up going with Pentax because their legendary 31mm & 77mm limited primes were right in the focal range I needed on a crop body. Their out-of-focus rendering was also beautiful - a consideration that was crucial to me. The 31mm in particular is standout in this respect. Not in an absolute sense (since I'd say the 77mm is even better), but relatively. Most wide-angles -even mild wide-angles- have at best mediocre performance when it comes to rendering the out-of-focus areas and at worst, distracting, ugly bokeh (all too common). In contrast their are a lot of nice rendering lenses in the range of the 77mm. The 31mm though, is all alone (among AF lenses anyway).

As with e_dawg, in-body shake reduction was also a big factor. Since I was going to be shooting with primes indoors, in low light I needed the SR in the body.

The competition that the Pentax won out over was a 5D w/ a 35mm f/1.4L & a 135mm f/2.0L. It's still a very close call in my mind, and I won't get into all the nitty gritty, but obviously I went with the Pentax (cost was not a determining factor).


2) I needed a body & lens for hiking & landscape work.
I go on extended, multi-day trips so I think the decision-making process could very well be different for people who only do day hikes.

My dominant consideration here was high-quality lenses for landscape photography, but this didn't narrow the field a whole lot. At f/8 to f/16, there are differences but everyone can cover the ranges well at those apertures.

Size, weight & range did narrow the field somewhat. Olympus has a spectacular selection here. The 12-60mm & 50-200 are completely unmatched. The 70-300mm is a great option if you want more reach. No one else provides such a complete range, with such good IQ, weatherproofed, in those sizes & weights. Canon's 24-105mm (an excellent lens) is the closest to the 12-60mm (and it was a real contender).

Weather-proofing was also a huge item. Olympus was again at the top of the heap. The only issue was that, when I was buying, the E-3 was not available (nor announced). Pentax offered the only reasonably-priced weatherproof body in the K10D, and, since Pentax was at the top of the list for my other criteria, everything seemed to come together. So, I got a 16-50mm DA* as a weatherproof standard zoom. I wish very strongly that the 17-70mm f/4 & 60-250mm f/4 were weatherproof (but wishing does not a single rubber seal make).

Today, I'm very tempted by the Olympus option. They seem to be the only one that understands that there is a subset of photographers who want phenomenal optics, weather sealing, range, & reasonable size & weight, and who don't need f/2.8! You wouldn't think it's rocket science, but apparently it is.


Where I'm going:
Like e_dawg though, I also love Nikon's CLS... And I have to admit Canon has some fast primes, and great low noise performance in the 5D...

As I said, all the equipment out there has its own siren call. At some point you have to prioritize even if not for the sake of your finances, for the sake of whatever shoulder you carry your camera bag on! To do that, you have to think about what you shoot, and not about the one or two shots that got away, but what you shoot 99% of the time. What gear is going to make taking photographs more pleasant/simpler/more enjoyable.

P.S. Personally the Xti viewfinder and single control-wheel layout would drive me crazy. I also need at least a little weather-sealing. I'd go with a 40D.
 

Stereodude

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The 450D / Digital Rebel XSi looks very nice IMHO. The review is up at dpreview.com. It's rather tempting to a EOS 10D owner like myself.
 

ddrueding

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Well, the battery of my 450D is charging as we speak. The weight completely won me over at the store, and the viewfinder is better than the 20D, and the one wheel is the only one I used before anyway!

More impressions to come!
 

ddrueding

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I was worried that it was mirror-based instead of prism-based, but it is bigger and brighter than my 20D. Though it had had a hard life...
 

udaman

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I was worried that it was mirror-based instead of prism-based, but it is bigger and brighter than my 20D. Though it had had a hard life...

I know you wanted something lighter weight, but for comparison did you try the 40D VF vs 450D, and then try a 5D? Once you get a look at the size of a FF VF like on the 5D, you'll think the rest are puny! If it weren't for the excessive bulk and various other flaws in construction compared to the 40D (cost not withstanding :p), I'd surely go for a 5D...I'd take a FF VF any day over a crop factor VF. Just have to wait to see what Canon does to replace the 5D or upgrade it. Reason why I want....someday...a FF dSLR with the same dimensions & weight as the perfect OM2 body. Slap a Sony FF 24MP sensor based IS into an OM2 body, and you'd be in heaven.

Canon 1D MkIIIn is rumored (not reliable rumor, but still ;) ) to have FF & HD Video too boot.

Then again, if Sony puts out the A900 @<$2k, and that forces Nikon to put out a lower priced FF(FX) version of the D300, that particular mythical dSLR would kick arse.
 

ddrueding

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Just as you say, they had the 5D, 40D, 450D, and 400D lined up in that order. The 5D and 40D had about the same weight and size, and the viewfinder was better, but only marginally so. The difference was subjectively 5%, where the difference between my 20D and the 450D is about 20%. The 400D was closer to my 20D.

The 450D is a bit too small as it is, the 5/20/40D are about right for my hand, but the weight difference is amazing. Here are the numbers:

1D Mk III : 1,155g
5D: 810g
40D: 740g
450D: 475g

For reference, my heaviest lens (75-300) weighs 480g. With the 50/1.8 on (130g), the whole thing (605g) weighs less than the 40D body alone!
 

paugie

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The kind of thread (minds and hearts clearly shown in the posts) which makes SF unique.

Maraming salamat (many thanks)

Just to say, still here, enjoying myself, albeit with nothing much to say.

And then again... I'd really like to be able to pluck a K100D Super out of the air for portraits. I suck super on landscapes. Using an Oly C750UZ.

Congrats, Dave on the new Body.
 

ddrueding

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First impressions? Love it. The lighter weight makes everything easier.

The biggest unexpected surprise? Live View with a 10x zoom allowing very fine control of manual focus.

I'm still playing with the menu system, but the basic controls are logical enough and quick to get around.

Oh, and this is my first IS lens...it rocks.
 

Tannin

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Oh no! Big mistake! You will find that the 450D controls really bug you after a while. After owning a proper 2-wheel Canon camera, using a 1-wheel jobbie is a right PITA the moment you need to do anything quickly and accurately.

Why didn't you ask me?

The 18-55 IS duplicates what you already have, but it's a significantly sharper, less distorted lens than the 18-55 II, and the IS comes in handy, so no problem there.

But what the hell. The 450D is cheap enough, it will do you for a little while, and it can always become your spare body after you get tired of fiddling around with the single-wheel control system and buy a 40D anyway.

ID III was never going to be the right camera for you. For the sort of work you do, a 5D, a 5D II (when it arrives) or a 40D would be much more appropriate. After all, how fast can the San Francisco Bay run away? You want resolution and image quality; speed is not so important.
 

ddrueding

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I knew you were going to say that, I remember your previous comments on the subject. But honestly, it hasn't bothered me yet, and I don't think it will. The loss of a wheel is made up for by the addition of more hard buttons and a better menu system ("My Menu" rocks).

Quick sample pics here.
 

udaman

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Oh no! Big mistake! You will find that the 450D controls really bug you after a while. After owning a proper 2-wheel Canon camera, using a 1-wheel jobbie is a right PITA the moment you need to do anything quickly and accurately.

Why didn't you ask me?


The 18-55 IS duplicates what you already have, but it's a significantly sharper, less distorted lens than the 18-55 II, and the IS comes in handy, so no problem there.

But what the hell. The 450D is cheap enough, it will do you for a little while, and it can always become your spare body after you get tired of fiddling around with the single-wheel control system and buy a 40D anyway.

ID III was never going to be the right camera for you. For the sort of work you do, a 5D, a 5D II (when it arrives) or a 40D would be much more appropriate. After all, how fast can the San Francisco Bay run away? You want resolution and image quality; speed is not so important.

Cause you weren't here when dd made his instantaneous decision...tis the breaks Tannin, how dd's personality works. Me on the other hand, I tear apart all of my buying decisions until virtually no stone is unturned, lol. Well except wines, those are lust/impulse buying decisions sometimes :p.

Strangely enough I find myself agreeing with everything Tannin says in this post (hmmm, Tannin makes some sense for once, lol). Now if Canon would only move that commander wheel just a little to the right of where they have it now, ergonomics would be better for even faster deciision, adjustment parameters. The upgraded 5D or successor model should have some 'my menu' firmware, but the IQ will be superior to all except the 1Ds...once again. At least until the FX D300 version comes out :D
 

Tannin

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"My Menu", and indeed the whole new menu system, was copied from the 40D, which copied it from the 1D III, which in turn was based on that of the 400D.

Don't get me wrong, you will take many an excellent image with the 450D, and in combination with your new 18-55 IS you have a very small, light, go-anywhere camera system that from a size and weight point of view would please anyone except an Udaman. But it gains nothing in image quality over the 40D (or the 20D), and discards the vastly better control system.

I owned an almost-450D for a while, as you know, and used it successfully. But in the end I wound up swapping it for another 40D. I liked the small size and weight, the picture quality was pretty much the same (although the 400D metering was a little suspect, so that required care), and the (then new) sensor cleaning function was a godsend. The viewfinder was awful. I believe that the 450D improves oin it, which is just as well - if you can't see properly you can't compose properly.

All in all, your 450D will be an excellent little camera. ....... But you've just traded in a 5-year-old BMW on a brand new Nissan 1.4 litre economy box. It's just as well that the current-generation econoboxes are so good. :)
 

ddrueding

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But you've just traded in a 5-year-old BMW on a brand new Nissan 1.4 litre economy box. It's just as well that the current-generation econoboxes are so good. :)

That sums it up very nicely. That was kind of the purpose of this thread. I had enough cash in my pocket to buy any of the three, which caused me to begin to think realistically about the decision. Up until then my logic had been simple and clear; I like my 20D and want a new body - 40D it is. But then I started looking at the other toys I could get with my spare change. Nice lens? Nice Tripod?

Specifically, what is it that makes the 40D more expensive, and am I going to appreciate it?

So after doing the math in my head and coming up with the 450D, I had to ask the community; am I crazy? Of course, the answer was yes, so I went ahead and did it. A 5D II as my next body? Sounds good to me.
 

Tea

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So since when did DDrueding ever spend less than two to five times more than the reasonable amount any normal, sensible person would spend to achieve a given result?

Are you feeling OK Dave? Didn't pick up anything nasty on your travels? I'd see a doctor if I were you. A head doctor.
 

ddrueding

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So since when did DDrueding ever spend less than two to five times more than the reasonable amount any normal, sensible person would spend to achieve a given result?

Are you feeling OK Dave? Didn't pick up anything nasty on your travels? I'd see a doctor if I were you. A head doctor.

I'm actually being fairly pragmatic on this one. Keep in mind my fiancee's point of view. If I went out and bought a 40D, then I would have successfully replaced my 20D, and have no need for more. As it stands, I can defend my choice to spend less money and get the 20D repaired as well. And even then I can point to the 450D's glaring shortcomings (which I really don't mind, but having a 20D for comparison makes them look pretty bad). That drives me to buy another body (almost certainly a 5D II). If I had a 20D and a 40D right now, I would have no room to maneuver. ;)

Sure this sounds a little manipulative, but it is my money, and (at least at the moment) there is enough of it. So now I'm with uda, waiting for a FF body to complete the lineup.
 

e_dawg

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Very well said, Gilbo.

Today, I'm very tempted by the Olympus option. They seem to be the only one that understands that there is a subset of photographers who want phenomenal optics, weather sealing, range, & reasonable size & weight, and who don't need f/2.8! You wouldn't think it's rocket science, but apparently it is.

I hear you. I always wondered why Nikon completely missed the boat on this one and has not shown any signs of addressing this in the future. You mentioned the 16-85/VR. It is an excellent lens optically and gives consumers a sorely needed option to have 16 mm on the wide end (the classic 24 mm focal length on 35 mm FF). A bit pricey, but nevertheless, a good start as you say. I just don't consider a lens with a max aperture of f/5.6 at the long end fast enough to be considered anything but a slow consumer zoom.

As for Olympus, yes the semi-pro zoom lens selection is absolutely fantastic. However, their bodies leave something to be desired. The AF system on all but the E-3 lag behind the competition (and even the E-3 cannot compare to the D300, which is in the same price range... although the D300 did raise the AF bar a few notches when it was introduced and is virtually unmatched in this regard at any price). It's not even that they continue to have 3 AF points on all bodies except for the E-3, it's that they can't even achieve focus lock with any degree of reliability and speed when the light gets dim. Even the extremely annoying flash-burst AF assist does not help very much. Then there's the continuous / servo AF that tracks moving subjects. Good luck with that unless you have an E-3.

If it was just the AF system, that might be acceptable, but it doesn't stop there. The metering and exposure (with and without flash) is not that reliable, nor is the auto WB. (although few competitors, I've found, can match Nikon's metering and WB, especially when it comes to flash photography within the same price range) Then you add the smaller, noisier 4/3 sensor with less dynamic range into the mix (although it is what allows you to have smaller lenses that cover the same focal length range), and you have a series of bodies that is frustrating to work with, to say the least.

Yet, there is hope: the E-3 takes Olympus out of the stone age and gives them a body that's truly competitive in all aspects (and surpasses the competition in weather sealing, ruggedness, and flexibility with the swiveling LCD). Only problem is that it's competitive against the competition that was around in 2006-2007. Olympus took so long to bring the E-3 to market that they shot themselves in the foot here. It was supposed to be world class when it was originally slated to be launched at PMA in early 2006, or latest at Photokina (Sep). When they actually launched it in late 2007, it only gave them a month before Nikon launched the D300 that so inconsiderately raised the bar Olympus spent 4 years trying to meet.

The new E-420/520 have taken refinements from the E-3's sensor to improve the noise and DR a bit and have added contrast AF to Live View, addressing the ridiculous AF delay in the previous generation. A built-in wireless flash commander rounds out the list of notable improvements, making their other dSLRs more competitive, yet still relatively lacking in the AF department.
 

Stereodude

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But it gains nothing in image quality over the 40D (or the 20D), and discards the vastly better control system.
I'm not so sure about that. The reviews at dpreview.com show the 450D to have less noise than the 20D. It also shows that the 450D can capture quite a bit more detail (it does ~30% better in the resolution tests).
 

e_dawg

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I'm fairly certain I want as lightweight a DSLR Canon body as I can get, it makes me that much more likely to bring it in the first place.

This is a very important factor, double D.

Then on the next big check I'll pick up a 1DmkIII on the big/pro side of things.

... or 5D II as you mentioned in your latest post. Sounds like you do have a plan in place. Not that I should be surprised, as you have proven to be able to jump into new things and learn very quickly.

Well, the battery of my 450D is charging as we speak. The weight completely won me over at the store, and the viewfinder is better than the 20D, and the one wheel is the only one I used before anyway! [...] And they only had the kit in stock, so I now have an 18-55 IS as well...

Congratulations, dd! I totally understand about the weight. That's why I added Olympus to the mix, despite their inferior bodies.

The 18-55/IS is a fantastic kit lens. IS really is a godsend, and these days it doesn't make sense not to have it. The 450D + 18-55/IS or 10-22 should be a fantastic travel setup.
 

ddrueding

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The 450D + 18-55/IS or 10-22 should be a fantastic travel setup.

That is my current walking around setup. If the 10-22 were a 10-35 I would feel much more comfortable carrying just it in urban settings, but it doesn't have the reach for, well, anything really.
 

udaman

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That is my current walking around setup. If the 10-22 were a 10-35 I would feel much more comfortable carrying just it in urban settings, but it doesn't have the reach for, well, anything really.

18-55 is too bulky/long to be considered compact by my standards---doesn't have any 'real' reach either, it's good for an inexpensive 2 zoom lens setup. If there was a mythical OM2 dSLR, and a more compact Oly lens like the Nikon 18-200 VR, that would be the 'one' lens travel setup I would use (w/2x TC for additional emergency reach)...*if* I was going to take a dSLR traveling, which I probably wouldn't on most trips.
 

Gilbo

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Then again, if Sony puts out the A900 @<$2k, and that forces Nikon to put out a lower priced FF(FX) version of the D300, that particular mythical dSLR would kick arse.
Everyone all over the internet keeps praying for this. There is no way it's going to be that cheap. It's going to $4000, and you can hold me to that.

That sums it up very nicely. That was kind of the purpose of this thread. I had enough cash in my pocket to buy any of the three, which caused me to begin to think realistically about the decision. Up until then my logic had been simple and clear; I like my 20D and want a new body - 40D it is. But then I started looking at the other toys I could get with my spare change. Nice lens? Nice Tripod?

Specifically, what is it that makes the 40D more expensive, and am I going to appreciate it?

So after doing the math in my head and coming up with the 450D, I had to ask the community; am I crazy? Of course, the answer was yes, so I went ahead and did it. A 5D II as my next body? Sounds good to me.
Sounds like you got exactly what you needed, despite the quick decision. I'm a huge believer in lighter-weight gear, believe me. You'll never see me with one of Nikon or Canon's pro bodies.

Hell, I would spend more to get that image quality in a smaller package. One great thing about the A900 is it's going to wake up the standard-sized, high IQ, feature-filled body category. The 5D will have competition, Nikon will have to put something out eventually, and, in a couple years we'll have full-frame from Pentax too.

Biggest problem with Sony? Even their top-of-the-line glass isn't weather-sealed. What a joke! It's a shame because that Zeiss 24-70mm f/2.8 standard zoom seems to be best in class, but I don't want something that's going to fill with dust & moisture...
Very well said, Gilbo.

I hear you. I always wondered why Nikon completely missed the boat on this one and has not shown any signs of addressing this in the future. You mentioned the 16-85/VR. It is an excellent lens optically and gives consumers a sorely needed option to have 16 mm on the wide end (the classic 24 mm focal length on 35 mm FF). A bit pricey, but nevertheless, a good start as you say. I just don't consider a lens with a max aperture of f/5.6 at the long end fast enough to be considered anything but a slow consumer zoom.

As for Olympus, yes the semi-pro zoom lens selection is absolutely fantastic. However, their bodies leave something to be desired. The AF system on all but the E-3 lag behind the competition (and even the E-3 cannot compare to the D300, which is in the same price range... although the D300 did raise the AF bar a few notches when it was introduced and is virtually unmatched in this regard at any price). It's not even that they continue to have 3 AF points on all bodies except for the E-3, it's that they can't even achieve focus lock with any degree of reliability and speed when the light gets dim. Even the extremely annoying flash-burst AF assist does not help very much. Then there's the continuous / servo AF that tracks moving subjects. Good luck with that unless you have an E-3.

If it was just the AF system, that might be acceptable, but it doesn't stop there. The metering and exposure (with and without flash) is not that reliable, nor is the auto WB. (although few competitors, I've found, can match Nikon's metering and WB, especially when it comes to flash photography within the same price range) Then you add the smaller, noisier 4/3 sensor with less dynamic range into the mix (although it is what allows you to have smaller lenses that cover the same focal length range), and you have a series of bodies that is frustrating to work with, to say the least.

Yet, there is hope: the E-3 takes Olympus out of the stone age and gives them a body that's truly competitive in all aspects (and surpasses the competition in weather sealing, ruggedness, and flexibility with the swiveling LCD). Only problem is that it's competitive against the competition that was around in 2006-2007. Olympus took so long to bring the E-3 to market that they shot themselves in the foot here. It was supposed to be world class when it was originally slated to be launched at PMA in early 2006, or latest at Photokina (Sep). When they actually launched it in late 2007, it only gave them a month before Nikon launched the D300 that so inconsiderately raised the bar Olympus spent 4 years trying to meet.

The new E-420/520 have taken refinements from the E-3's sensor to improve the noise and DR a bit and have added contrast AF to Live View, addressing the ridiculous AF delay in the previous generation. A built-in wireless flash commander rounds out the list of notable improvements, making their other dSLRs more competitive, yet still relatively lacking in the AF department.
You really summarized my current view of Olympus. Probably better than I could. The glass is great, the niches they're trying to hit are real gaps in competitor's lines, but, while the E-3 gives you a lot of hope, the bodies aren't there.

Despite the lack of weather-sealing, I'm getting more and more curious as to the performance of the Pentax 17-70mm f/4 & the 60-250mm f/4. They're very well-targetted ranges (16mm on the wide end would have been noticeably more useful of course - yes, it is a noticeable difference). Ned Bunnell, President of Pentax Imaging, and an avid photographer just posted sample images of the 17-70 on his blog. I haven't had a chance to examine them yet.

When Pentax makes the effort to build high-quality glass, they're as good as the very best. The question is, are these consumer zooms, or are they light-weight, compact pro lenses like Canon's 24-105 & 17-40?
 

Gilbo

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If there was a ... a more compact Oly lens like the Nikon 18-200 VR, that would be the 'one' lens travel setup I would use (w/2x TC for additional emergency reach)

Leica makes a 14-150mm f/3.5-5.6 for the 4/3 mount. It's difficult to find in North America, but it's a very interesting lens.

* Diameter: 78.5mm
* Length: 90.4mm
* Weight: 535g

It was Lens of the Year at Pop Photo in 2007.

I've been unable to find reviews from reputable sources.
 

e_dawg

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The glass is great, the niches they're trying to hit are real gaps in competitor's lines, but, while the E-3 gives you a lot of hope, the bodies aren't there.

I am comforted to know that in the 4 years since the E-1 was launched, Olympus managed to catch up to the previous generation of bodies from Nikon and Canon. It follows that in 2011, Olympus will come out with a body to rival the D300 ;) That's kinda sad, but the D300 is a damn good body, and I would enjoy using a similarly performing Olympus even if it will be 3 years behind the competition ;)

Leica makes a 14-150mm f/3.5-5.6 for the 4/3 mount. It's difficult to find in North America, but it's a very interesting lens. [...] I've been unable to find reviews from reputable sources.

You can tell from the MTF graphs that it's a sharp lens at almost all focal lengths even wide-open, and that CA and astigmatism are relatively well-controlled. Only problem that it's really expensive ($1,600 in Canada, probably $1,400 in the US).

Coupled to the E-420, this could make for a relatively compact superzoom dSLR kit. It may not be up to uda's lofty standards when it comes to performance vs compactness, but it's probably one of the better choices out there.
 
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