All-in-one printer thingies - do they work right yet?

[Tea]

Having had a number of horrible epics with Hewlett-Crapard All-in-one printer-scanner-fax-copier things, to do with incompatibility on software and hardware levels, very bad documentation, useless help desk staff, not working with Windows 2000 or XP or any other bloody version of your taste, and last (but not least) a driver that requires a register hack in order to work as designed .... I have a customer that really needs an all-in-one.

Sigh.

To make it worse, the system she has at present has an HP all-in-one and it has failed to work only once - and that was when a moth got stuck in it. She's sending this system back to the rental company and buying a new one from scratch. The rest of the system is easy:

XP 2500, 512MB, 80GB Samsung, Gigabyte KT-400 board, Albatron Gforce 4 MX440 64MB, Lite-On CD burner, Logitech mouse, Mitsubishi professional keyboard, Windows 2000, decent Creative speakers. It will run Quicken, Office, and the web. Nothing else to speak of, bar a few light-duty games and CD-audio music.

Every time she mentioned an all-in-one, Tannin threw his hands up in the air and ran round in circles, so it sounds like it's up to me to work out something sensible.

Let's face it, I just don't trust anything with an HP badge on ot. I know hers has been trouble-free, but I've seen plenty that were anything but.

They use: fax, copier, printer functions, maybe the scanner now and then. The fax does lots of work, both incoming and outgoing.

It turns out that Epson and Canon (firms I acutually trust to get things right most of the time) have multi-function injet products. (Inkjet is fine for them - no need for laser.) Neither one has a fax component though.

So: if I go with an Epson or Canon MFP, can they use the fax software that comes free with a typical modem? I don't think I've looked at that stuff since it used to be DOS-based. Is it OK? Good for dummies to use?

Are the Epson or Canon MFPs reliable? Compatible? Is there some other product I should look at instead?

Or, should I tell them that, space problems notwithstanding, they ought to get a real printer (Epson Stylus C61) and a real scanner (Canon LiDE 30), same as Tannin says?

Thanks guys.

PS: It's lucky you guys are around to help me with this stuff. Tannin is damn-near useless these days. After our Hewlett-Packard MFP conversation, I found him hanging upside down by his knees from the light fitting in the storeroom, trying to peel a banana with his feet and spitting at the poor innocent llittle HP Pavillion that was in here for a memory upgrade.

I'm a bit worried about Tannin. Maybe he needs a holiday.

PPS: Where is Time when you want him? He's really good at this stuff.

 

[Howell]

We have ~15 Brother MFC-8500 and 8600 all-in-one devices. We have not had trouble out of any of them and some have been here for more than a year. They have a seperable toner cart. and drum and the machine keeps track of when the drum needs to be replaced (by page counter and you have to manually reset the counter). I recomended one to my father.

 

[Jake the Dog]

Can't help you with a Canon, Epson or other non HP MFC.

I recently got a HP PSC2210 and am very happy with it. everything works as expected. actually that's not true. it works better than expected in everything it does. the only issue I have is the small cartridges for which HP charges like a wounded bull but since I'm going to switch to quality refills, this won't be a problem in future.

in complete contrast to your issues with HP MFC's Tea, the 2210 drivers installed 1st time with no probs and the doco is comprehensive. I got my Dad the little HP 1210 for Father's Day and it too installed without a prob. doco was good too.

I haven't used a HP MFC until two months ago, maybe they've improved a lot lately?

 

[Pradeep]

Does she need colour? If not, then a Brother laser all in one would be the way to go. I dunno if they have any flatbed versions tho.

 

[Mercutio]

Why the heck would anyone out-and-out need an all-in-one?

Last I checked, a fax machine was about $50, a printer another $50 and a scanner, $50 more. Each of those devices, save maybe the printer, is well-suited to its job and unlikely to break (printers, of course, die every time you look at them funny). All-in-ones cost about the same as all parts involved, and have the notorious disadvantage that leads to Tannin's question.

As far as Fax software: Symantec Winfax is not completely horrible for sending faxes. In fact, I think it's easy and perhaps even useful. I don't like using it to receive faxes, though.

In the US, receiving faxes on a free efax.com account is probably the best way to go.

 

[mubs]

I have to agree with Merc and Tannin; I'm allergic to these all-in-one things that are jacks-of-all-trades and piss-poor masters of none. For printers, I'm allergic to ink-jets as well; biggest problem being the recurring cost of ink cartridges. In the U.S., you can buy a Samsung laser for ~$80-$100 after rebates; a bargain. I've used Winfax, and though it used to be a resource hog, is a fairly decent program. Maybe they've improved the resource usage, or maybe like most Symantec products it's still is a hog. I'd be very leery of using the free fax sw that comes with modems; most of them'll end up frustrating the heck out of the user. OEM Winfax is pretty cheap.

 

[cquinn]

I needed an all-in-one jobber for a convention I just got back from
yesterday. I volunteer as logistics coordinator, and help out on the
back end with minor computer functions
(ie. "We need to print this document and forgot our printer"; or
"We a running out of this form, and need some copies made quickly").
Space was an issue, as I get one corner of a 6 foot table as my work
area; as was convenience, since it had to serve duty as both as printer
and a copier.

It might have been cheaper to go to an office supply store and get
copies made, but I could take less time away from other duties
(and not have to leave the convention site) by doing that thru the
printer. (and I charged the cost of a replacement black cartridge
back to the convention - over the weekend I practically emptied the
one that shipped with the printer).

Since my old printer (a Lexmark 3200) had decided to stop printing a few
months earlier, a couple of days before the convention I shopped around
for an all-in-one that could serve better in its stead. I found a deal on
a Lexmark X75 model for about $60 US (my guess is the model is being
phased out as newer models take its place). Not the best model by any
means, but the price was right, and its a definite step up from the older
printer.

It was easy enough to set up, and rather nice having to deal with only
two cables (USB and power) for the device.

Caveats: The funtions of the printer work thru software, so you can't do
copying or faxing with the computer being off. And the ink cartridges are
rather small. And it did have the annoying habit of installing software that
was not specifically requested (the OCR) during install.

I have not had a chance to try the fax functionality of the x75 yet, but
I'd say it is probably better to have that built into the device if it is a
more than occasional use feature.

I also helped a cousin out recently with setting up an HP K60 on Windows
XP. We had to download a new driver package from hp.com to work with
XP, and do the usual chanting, reading of runes, and reboots to finally get
the all-in-one to remember how it was supposed to work. HP tech
support was next to useless (a choice between "email and wait for a
response", or "pay the CC charge, and hope the technician will understand
the installation issue without trying to get us to use the original CD, which
we already know is non-functional")

Space notwithstanding, seperate devices also means that the office staff
would need to be retrained to deal with each funtion as a separate task,
instead of seeing the box in the corner as the printer/fax/copier/scanner.

 

[jtr1962]

I've never been a big fan of those all-in-one things, either. The basic problem is that by cramming three things into one case you need to replace or repair the entire unit if any one of those three things fails. Another good reason is that you usually get pretty much the low end on everything, and you can't upgrade the printer independently of, say, the scanner. And then most of those scanners in the all-in-ones are the sheet-fed type, which is next to useless except for full-page scans. About the only person I can think of who might actually need one of these would be somebody living in a 160 ft² studio in Manhattan who literally doesn't have the space for three separate peripherals.

I second mubs' feelings on inkjets. Now that color laser is starting to become affordable I feel inkjets are on their way out. If you don't need color, then it makes almost no sense at all to own one even now. Horrible things. You either spend a small fortune in cartridges, or try refilling yourself with all the attendant headaches and mess. Even when they're working right the printed pages run the minute they get wet. The printer maunfacturers sucker you in by selling the printer at cost or less, and then making many times that in consumeables.

DIE, INKJETS, DIE! :diablo:

 

[Mercutio]

Color lasers won't ever replace inkjets. Why? Photoprinting. Laser printers can't do it

 

[jtr1962]

You're kidding? Any technical reasons why not? You mean I'm stuck with inkjets forever(I print photos once in a while) unless I want to go for those printers with the crayons?

 

[Pradeep]

A colour laser simply doesn't replicate all the colour shades that an inkjet can. It just looks like crap to put it simply. I believe supercaff has(had?) a solid wax printer, ther are really more designed for business document output with solid colours (such as bar graphs. pie charts etc).

Dye sub gives you really nice photos without the mess of inkjets, however there is a fixed cost per page with them.

And I believe on the very high end there is a device called a LightJet that uses 3 lasers (RGB) to expose photo paper directly. I don't think you would get much change from $100K for one of those hoewever.

 

[Mercutio]

I think you were drooling over my Phaser 850.

Which makes way nicer output than any color laser I've seen, but not as nice as one of those 6-tank 2400dpi Epson inkjets.

 

[Buck]

And I believe on the very high end there is a device called a LightJet that uses 3 lasers (RGB) to expose photo paper directly. I don't think you would get much change from $100K for one of those hoewever.

Or you could just charge the customer for a quick setup fee on your new direct-plate imaging press and run a few sheets off for the them.

Sorry, this discussion took me back to my printing days.

 

[Pradeep]

Drool schmool Actually I wouldn't say no if I was offered one for free.

Right now I'm trying to dl all the ATI drivers required to get my AIW 7500 up and running, 24MB for the 8.6 MMC and another 23MB for the 3in1 driver pack is excrutiating on dial up (24kbps yay!). I need it to record the TV shows that clash, it'll be cheaper then getting another ReplayTV.

 

[SteveC]

Right now I'm trying to dl all the ATI drivers required to get my AIW 7500 up and running, 24MB for the 8.6 MMC and another 23MB for the 3in1 driver pack is excrutiating on dial up (24kbps yay!). I need it to record the TV shows that clash, it'll be cheaper then getting another ReplayTV.

Just FYI, the volume control doesn't work for me on my AIW8500 with MMC 8.6.

 

[blakerwry]

In every version of MMC I've ran the volume control controlled the mixer on the soundcard(vid card doesn't matter), perhaps you have the MMC software set to use the wrong input for the sound card or you have the wrong input source selected in the mixer. (Or there is a conflicting device typing up the mixer)

 

[Pradeep]

F$$$! Got the driver installed, and the control panel, and the WDM drivers. Then thought I installed the MMC but I guess it refuses to work with DX 8.1 Off to dl DX 9 I guess the only good news is Server 2003 is still functioning and hasn't BSOD'd like the last time I played with win2k and Catalyst.

 

[Adcadet]

for about a year I've been using an HP PSC750, and never had a problem with it in WinXP. I simply don't have room for a scanner/copier and a printer.


Never needed a fax machine, though efax.com is very nice for receiving faxes.

 

[e_dawg]

I've installed a brother MFC laser in my dad's office with much success (knock wood). The problem with brother laser print engines, however, is that they have separate drum and toner cartridges. The toner is nice and cheap, which one might think saves you money in the long run, but one finds out the hard way that the drum is extremely expensive and every once in a while you'll get stuck with a wonky one that only lasts about 2,000 pages (unlike the 10,000 or whatever it's advertised at). Spending $200 US on a new drum sometimes 4 months after you just installed a new one can make you wish you had an HP!

The HP LaserJet engines that they use in their multifunctions (incidentally, most of HP's LaserJet print engines are made by Canon) are quite problem-free except for the separation pads and pickup rollers that wear out after a year of use... the good news is that they are user-replaceable (in their laser printers anyways) and you can buy the parts for a reasonable price from HP.

As for inkjets, I feel the same way: they suck unless you need them for photo printing (which are so vastly superior to colour lasers it's not even funny). But if that's the way she wants it, I might just say HP because I think their inkjet printing engines and paper feeding mechanism have historically been the most trouble-free and lowest-maintenance in the business. Indeed, they have also historically had the most driver problems as well, but they seem to have gotten better with their Win2k drivers. (HP does need a few tries to get it right, though... v1.0 and 1.1 of their drivers still suck)

Epson and Canon inkjets do produce beautiful printouts with solid drivers, but their paper feeding and nozzle clogging problems are legendary (clogging and irreplaceable print heads moreso with the Epsons and paper feeding problems moreso with the Canons... although anytime you have vertical paper feed, it's more likely to have problems compared to a tray feed). HP inkjets have been relatively good in both these inkjet industry problem areas.

 

[Jake the Dog]

Ricoh are/were developing a professional use 7 colour laser printer/copier that uses special paper but does indeed make photorealistic prints. overall cost of an A4 photo print is designed to be cheaper than any comparable inkjet, esspecially hi-fi colour inkjets. I was involved in the development project on the RIP system side of this new print technology. this was about 3 years ago and I still haven't seen it hit the market but imagine it will someday soon.

 

[Tea]

Hmmm .... I'm not sure what to make of that. Lots of information (thankyou gentlemen) but no clear consensus. Tannin swore that he would never sell another HP product again after the incredible balls-ups they made of their RMA service over the last few years. I'm not sure how long "never" is, but I doubt that he would let me sell anything with an HP badge before he cools down sometime in 2006 or 07. Possibly 09 - he was seriously pissed off about it.

Lasers don't come into it - I don't think my customer would give up the colour thing.

At this stage, I'm trying to decide between the two most likely prospects:

(a) Epson or Canon AIO and modem for faxes. (I'll have to install the fax software that comes with a modem and see what it's like. Basic would be just fine, so long as it is functional.)

(b) Epson C61 printer, Canon scanner, and as above.

Any more thoughts?

 

[Mercutio]

New versions of Bitware are Computer Associates-badged. Consider yourself warned. Is there some other fax-software-that-comes-with-a-modem out there?

 

[i]

I had a positive experience with MightFax. Cheap ($19.95), easy to get (download from their site), and easy to use. Then again, I don't send or receive faxes too often.

 

[Tea]

Computer Associatyes used to be good. Their strange little word processing package Textor was simply superb. Written in France, I gather, which probably explains a lot. Have they gone to pot?

Also, how could you bugger up something as simple as a fax program?

(Thinks: fax is as nearly as simple as email. Remembers that Outlook is supposed to be an email; client. Hurriedly crosses out question, pretends never asked it.)

 

[e_dawg]

As I write this, I am having a pleasant experience receiving a fax through eFax.com, a fax service for people who don't have a fax machine mentioned above as suggested by Merc. You sign-up for a fax number in your area and they simply e-mail you any faxes received. You can fax signed documents back by printing, scanning, and sending it back through eFax.com to your recipient.

It costs $13 US to setup and $13 US/month to subscribe. I still have to go through the credit verification process before I can send faxes, but I am able to receive faxes.

I would go with separates unless your client has stipulated a single device only.

 

[Tea]

Neat idea, Doggy One. At this stage, I'll just present the alternatives - i.e., (a) and (b) above, and let her chose. Unless someone is very persuasive, I ain't ouching a Hewlett-Crapard. Tannin would kill me.

 

[Fushigi]

As I write this, I am having a pleasant experience receiving a fax through eFax.com, a fax service for people who don't have a fax machine mentioned above as suggested by Merc. You sign-up for a fax number in your area and they simply e-mail you any faxes received. You can fax signed documents back by printing, scanning, and sending it back through eFax.com to your recipient.

I don't know who the service provider is (it could be eFax) but this is what I do for a private fax line for work. I have my own fax # and anything I receive arrives as a TIFF attachment to an email. Multipages are all within the TIFF image and I use XP's image viewer to view/print. I can also send faxes, including attachments by emailing to targetfaxnumber @ somethingIforget.

 

[e_dawg]

Perhaps you could find out some details on this competing service for us? It would be nice to know what their offering includes and for what price.

 

[Fushigi]

Perhaps you could find out some details on this competing service for us? It would be nice to know what their offering includes and for what price.

I don't know anything about it, really. I'm just a lowly user. 8) But you can read a little about it here: http://www.rfax.biz/products/default.htm?c=1009

 

[Howell]

I was going to comment on the fact that I had set up an enterprise fax software solution that would be too expensive. Similar to Rightfax, it's called VSIfax.