Anything into Oil?

Howell

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Technological savvy could turn 600 million tons of turkey guts and other waste into 4 billion barrels of light Texas crude each year.

http://www.discover.com/may_03/gthere.html?article=featoil.html

Can Thermal Depolymerization Slow Global Warming?

If the thermal depolymerization process WORKS AS Claimed, it will clean up waste and generate new sources of energy. But its backers contend it could also stem global warming, which sounds iffy. After all, burning oil creates global warming, doesn't it?
Carbon is the major chemical constituent of most organic matter—plants take it in; animals eat plants, die, and decompose; and plants take it back in, ad infinitum. Since the industrial revolution, human beings burning fossil fuels have boosted concentrations of atmospheric carbon more than 30 percent, disrupting the ancient cycle. According to global-warming theory, as carbon in the form of carbon dioxide accumulates in the atmosphere, it traps solar radiation, which warms the atmosphere—and, some say, disrupts the planet's ecosystems.
But if there were a global shift to thermal depolymerization technologies, belowground carbon would remain there. The accoutrements of the civilized world—domestic animals and plants, buildings, artificial objects of all kinds—would then be regarded as temporary carbon sinks. At the end of their useful lives, they would be converted in thermal depolymerization machines into short-chain fuels, fertilizers, and industrial raw materials, ready for plants or people to convert them back into long chains again. So the only carbon used would be that which already existed above the surface; it could no longer dangerously accumulate in the atmosphere. "Suddenly, the whole built world just becomes a temporary carbon sink," says Paul Baskis, inventor of the thermal depolymerization process. "We would be honoring the balance of nature."
— B.L.

Oil companies, who you'ld think would fight it, seem to like the prospects too.
 

Tea

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On the global warming thing, the point of it isn't how much you burn, it's more what you burn. If you cut down a tree and burn it and then you grow another tree, the net amount of CO2 in the atmosphere remains unchanged: the new tree soaks up 100% of the carbon released into the atmosphere when you burned the old tree. (Assuming that the two trees are the same size, of course.) If you dig up some coal, however, you are adding to the amount of carbon in the atmosphere. Same thing with oil.
 

Howell

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Does all vegetation absorb CO2 at a rate proportional to it's size or are there some that work better? Like say a corn stalk absorbing more than a tree of equivalent size. But surely it's related to surface area. So a tree would have to be much bigger than a corn stalk for equivalent surface area, no?
 

Howell

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Also, Is combustion necessary for the chemical reaction to produce CO2. I would think not considering we produce CO2 every minute.
 

Dïscfärm

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Howell said:
Does all vegetation absorb CO2 at a rate proportional to it's size or are there some that work better? Like say a corn stalk absorbing more than a tree of equivalent size. But surely it's related to surface area. So a tree would have to be much bigger than a corn stalk for equivalent surface area, no?

Vegetation consumes CO2 and produces O2 during daylight hours. But, at night, vegetation consumes O2 and produces CO2.

By the way, even though CO2 (carbon dioxide) is the most famous greenhouse gas, it is not the only one, nor is it the worst, actually. Water vapour is also a greenhouse gas and can hold more heat than CO2. So, put that in your pipe and smoke it. <<Argh>>


 

Tea

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Well, that depends on how you define combustion. The body "burns" carbon and hydrogen by combing them with oxygen but, through the use of some very clever catalytic chemicals called "enzymes", manages to do so at low temperatures. The result, though, is much the same.

The key issue isn't how rapidly vegetation absorbs CO2, it's what it does with it. A redwood tree, for example, can be seen as a great big tower of stored atmospheric carbon that locks it away for 1000 years. A corn stalk only locks it away for a few months. I should imagine that the best carbon sink vegetation is the stuff that stores the most atmospheric carbon per acre.
 

jtr1962

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Pros:
1)Finds a productive use for waste(hopefully garbage dumps can eventually be reclaimed)
2)Eliminates dependence on foreign oil(no more money flowing to sponsors of terrorism)
3)Municipalities can produce their own oil rather than being at the whims of oil companies
4)If universally adopted eliminates the net production of greenhouse gases, one of the reasons against using fossil fuels
5)Produces other valuable byproducts besides oil
6)Has potential to reprocess many hard to deal with toxic wastes
7)Will save remote areas like ANWR from being destroyed by oil drillers

Cons:
1)Since oil is no longer a non-renewable resource, and can be manufactured cheaply, there may be fewer efforts to make zero emission vehicles, or even more efficient ones
2)Process needs to prove itself commercially
3)There may be political opposition by the powers-that-be who wish to keep the oil companies in power

As you can see, I think there are more good than bad things about this. My main concern is that since the greenhouse effect will no longer be an issue if we stop mining oil and coal then we will slacken in our efforts(albeit feeble thus far) to reduce use of oil as a power source. In my opinion the environmentalists made a huge mistake by choosing the greenhouse effect as the poster child for their conservation efforts. The world's scientists are still in disagreement as to whether or not the effect exists, or is merely an outlier of normal climate patterns, even though I personally think it's for real. Rather, they should have focused on the proven negative effects of burning oil-cancer, asthma, acid rain, toxic runoff from roads, smog, generally filthy smelling air around roads and in large cities. These are all real, and are all good reasons to stop burning oil yesterday. The oil from this process needn't be burned to provide power anyway. Rather, it can be fed to a fuel cell as a source of hydrogen, and produce electricity as a byproduct. Perhaps this would be the best use of this process. Process the waste, and generate electricity on site via fuel cells. The electricity can be sold to the municipality for more money than the oil is worth, and the waste products from the fuel cells can be fed back into the "reactor". This electricity can be used to replace the electricity currently produced by coal burning plants. Since the fuel is free, I can see electricity becoming very cheap, and electric cars charged from the power grid(or perhaps simply using inductive pickups to get electricity from cables buried in the road) replacing oil burners. Of course, you can also use the oil produced to feed fuel-cell powered cars as well. As I said earlier, I just hope we continue development of zero emission vehicles(both cars and planes) even if this process comes into widespread use. Growing medical costs are becoming one of the single biggest issues nowadays, and I suspect fossil fuel use is one cause of such a huge number of generally unhealthy and depressed people. How could you not be depressed always breathing filthy air? BTW, the term "fossil fuel" will become something of an anacronyism should this idea become successful.
 

Tea

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jtr1962 said:
In my opinion the environmentalists made a huge mistake by choosing the greenhouse effect as the poster child for their conservation efforts. The world's scientists are still in disagreement as to whether or not the effect exists, or is merely an outlier of normal climate patterns, even though I personally think it's for real.

Very, very few scientists are in the slightest doubt, JTR. There are te paid lackeys of the fossil fuel industry - and I'm deadly serious about that charge, the number of fake "independant" bodies out there that are funded by the fossil fuel companies is quite stunning - but them aside, the number of qualified scientists who are not convinced is greater than zero but not significantly so.

It's real.

I see the effects every day.

Of all the problems we have in this part of the world, it is second only to population - and, of course, population is a major cause of greenhouse anyway, so in a sense, greenhouse is the biggest problem of all.
 

mubs

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Paid lackeys; PR people; spin doctors. I have never understood these and never will. When all your tarining, skills, knowledge tell you something is bad, how can you take the opposite stance, just for money?

I could never do it. Maybe that's one reason I'm not rich. In the monetary sense, that is.
 

jtr1962

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I don't doubt the greenhouse effect is for real either Tea. We've had crazy weather here the last 10 or 15 years. Mostly, it's been hotter, but also erratic as well. When I was young it was rare to have a day over 90° F in summer. Most summers in the last decade have strings of days over 90, and even a handful over 100. One summer it hit 113°F. This was plain old unheard of in NYC. Besides that the weather goes from warm to cold and back again in the span of a few days. For example, this April is one of the coldest on record so far. Today it was 40°F when I rode my bike. A few days ago it was 80. It's not uncommon to have high temperatures differ by 30 or 40° from one day to the next.

Besides the erratic and often extreme temperatures, you'll have periods of little or no precipitation and weeks of drenching rain or heavy snow. This past winter was one of the snowiest on record, and also among the coldest. In 1993 we actually broke the snowfall record with 76" IIRC. The year before that we had a few days below zero which is very rare here(CougTek and e_dawg are the resident experts on cold weather). Now one year or two of crazy weather doesn't make a pattern, but a decade or two has to. My biggest fear is if the trend continues and we start evaporating large amounts of water from the oceans due to higher temperatures we could very well reach a point of no return and end up like our sister planet Venus. To think "scientists" paid for by oil companies will lie outright in the face of all the evidence is disgusting. Even more disgusting was what one oil company executive said. He didn't deny that global warming exists but said that it wasn't necessarily a bad thing as many people prefer warmer climates. Too bad the guy wasn't in the same room as me. I think I would have poured gasoline on him, set him on fire, and asked him how he liked the "warmer climate".
 

Mercutio

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The issue is so much whether greenhouse gasses cause warming, but how much warming greenhouse gasses cause. We haven't had daily whole-planet weather data very long, and the fossil record isn't exectly a fine-grained tool for this kind of information.

I don't think we can really judge long-term patterns in the weather yet. Five years of record highs surrounded by 250 years of below-average temperatures, and someone on a human time-span is only going to want to talk about the highs.

OTOH, I live at the southern tip of Lake Michigan, which, by all accounts, means I should see postively awful winters, and it's only really snowed more than a couple inches twice in the last three years.

Just a thought. Carry on.
 

mubs

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Don't mean to hijack this thread, but anyone heard of this guy? He talks about an impending magnetic shift and how the earth's crust will move. Result: midwest will be the U.S.'s new west coast. Yup, and Manhattan, NYC, et. al. will disappear too. There's not much info on the web site (you're supposed to buy his book, I haven't), but I did see the large version of his new world map at someone's home just as I was leaving, and had barely enough time to skim through the brief explanation in the side bar.

I'm not taking sides on this issue, but don't dismiss him right off. For a second, think what it'll be like if he is indeed correct. I'll need to stick a cable up from the ocean to chat with you guys.
 

time

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He's actually ripping off The HAB Theory, a 1976 SF novel by Allan Eckert (which I happen to have).

Which in turn was based on a theory proposed by Hugh Auchinclos Brown in his own book of 1967.

You can read all about it at http://www.habtheory.com

Here's an extract from a letter by Alan Eckert:
Am I interested in still striving to "warn" people of impending disaster?  Actually, no, not at all.  When I see all around me, wherever I go in North America or elsewhere, the devastating and irreversible destruction that the human animal is wreaking upon this planet on so massive a scale, I cannot help but feel that I would welcome such a cataclysm, to give this tired and abused old earth a new opportunity to heal itself and begin again.
 
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