Empire in Decline

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
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The people working at the three letter agencies are just as Trumpy as everyone else.
No one is coming to save us from ourselves.

I don't believe that a poor showing in 2026 elections will be allowed to stand. I think we're done.
 

sedrosken

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Yeah, jtr I'd say at this point it's optimistic to think we'll have mid-term elections at all.

The vulnerable populations -- those who are some variety of LGBTQ, people of color (especially of hispanic or middle eastern origin) and those with disabilities and illnesses needing management need to be out of here, like, yesterday. Soon enough it'll probably extend to women in general and white folks who don't kiss the ring. The end of birthright citizenship means no one is a citizen. Meaning no one has rights. There needs to be a concerted effort to get those most vulnerable to this regime's abuses of power out of range of their retaliation to their continued existence.
 

jtr1962

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Soon enough it'll probably extend to women in general and white folks who don't kiss the ring. The end of birthright citizenship means no one is a citizen. Meaning no one has rights. There needs to be a concerted effort to get those most vulnerable to this regime's abuses of power out of range of their retaliation to their continued existence.
It'll definitely extend to women and girls in general. I'm sure part of the hidden agenda of Project 2025 is to make females property again. You'll probably even have people wearing MFPA hats. This way the incel "white grievance" males don't have court women to get laid. They can just buy them at auction. And yeah, I'm fully expecting any of us here who have spoken out against this regime to eventually get deportation notices, or even have ICE show up at our doorstep. After all, once they're done deporting Mexicans we'll have to find a way to keep them busy.
 
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Chewy509

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Yeah, I'd say the military is brainwashed enough to just fall in line.

I used to think our armed forces had enough integrity and dignity to not follow illegal orders, but I've been proven wrong.
It's not that they're brainwashed, but the USMCJ (US military code of justice) is rather problematic in its procedures/ruling around illegal orders. Soldiers are also generally trained to assume that any order they are given is lawful and must be followed.

In most other NATO/Western countries, it's codified into military law that any enlisted personal, non-commissioned officer or commissioned office can ignore/not follow clearly illegal orders with few/little repercussions. (eg things listed in the Geneva Conventions, or known state/federal laws that are deemed to common knowledge). They even have the right to question orders at the time without repercussion. (This is for orders that most people would consider illegal, eg shot unarmed civilians who are protesting). For more nuance orders, well, document and cover your arse. (eg formal notice that you believe the order is unlawful, but following the order in protest, as the lawfulness of the order cannot be determined at the time). Good commanders and leaders will side with their sub-ordinates in these matters and push it uphill.

The US, not so much. Whilst personal are required to ignore/not follow illegal orders, they themselves have no/little legal authority to define what is a legal/lawful or illegal/unlawful order. That is left up to a convened Court-Martial. Basically a solder, themselves on dis-obeying an illegal order are themselves placed under arrest (under the charge of disobeying a lawful order), and then their sole defence is proof that the order itself was illegal. While the court-martial is convened they are stripped of all privileges, and are generally incarcerated. The court-martial is permanently on record, and the solder will often be seen as not a team player, and so on.

For some matters, proving an order was illegal is trivial to do (eg breaking the convention of rules of warfare), but in most cases it can be very-very hard to do. When a soldier is deployed they are often given a general "rules of engagement" (ROE) that is essentially the do/do-not list of things they can/cannot do. The soldiers must follow the ROE even if they may result in unlawful actions. (basically a solder needs to follow the USMCJ, federal laws, state laws, deployment rules and ROE).

Now on the deployment of Marines in LA. I would assume that their mission is to secure/protect federal buildings (a lawful deployment of a federal military unit), and would have an ROE based on that mission. If a civilian attempts to enter said building without lawful intent, then the solders on the ground can perform any actions as deemed appropriate in the ROE. For example, shooting a civilian is unlawful except in self-defence, but the ROE may require/allow some use of force to prevent entry, eg shooting a civilian now becomes lawful under the ROE, or for example a solder in there general duties is not allowed to detain/arrest a civilian (they are not law enforcement), but can detain a civilian in accordance with the ROE if the ROE deems it necessary, and the arrest part comes into effect when Law Enforcement (eg the police) are onsite. A Marine in this instance cannot go out beyond the provided ROE and start detaining "illegals", as this is a breach of federal law, USMCJ and the ROE/deployment rules given.

Basically there is a lot of nuance in the USMCJ handles unlawful orders, and it's not in favour of the people receiving said orders. There are many examples (especially from the early GWOT era) where solders have attempted to not follow orders, as their personal belief they were unlawful, only to front a court-martial to find out otherwise. This may have lead to fear about not following any orders, even clearly unlawful ones.

Now at the top of the food chain, eg the Generals getting the orders, this is where the real push back should be coming from, and unfortunately in the US (from an out-side observer) the higher you go, the more political the appointment, not to mention the "boys-club" effect. There should absolutely be an entire legal team inside the pentagon and at the top of each branch giving over every and all orders given from the executive branch to determine if they are legal, and what ROE should be applied to those orders to ensure they are lawful.
 

jtr1962

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I don't believe that a poor showing in 2026 elections will be allowed to stand. I think we're done.
The perpetual optimist in me says this too will pass. The realist says otherwise. What's amazing is all these MAGAs defending policies which will hurt them in Trump's so-called Big Beautiful Bill. Or more accurately Big Raging Dumpster Fire.
 

sedrosken

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Gotta love how one of Trump's campaign promises was to make the Epstein files public, and now the official line is that there are no Epstein files. Wonder who he's protecting with that move.
 

sedrosken

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It's not that they're brainwashed, but the USMCJ (US military code of justice) is rather problematic in its procedures/ruling around illegal orders. Soldiers are also generally trained to assume that any order they are given is lawful and must be followed.

[...]

The US, not so much. Whilst personal are required to ignore/not follow illegal orders, they themselves have no/little legal authority to define what is a legal/lawful or illegal/unlawful order. That is left up to a convened Court-Martial. Basically a solder, themselves on dis-obeying an illegal order are themselves placed under arrest (under the charge of disobeying a lawful order), and then their sole defence is proof that the order itself was illegal. While the court-martial is convened they are stripped of all privileges, and are generally incarcerated. The court-martial is permanently on record, and the solder will often be seen as not a team player, and so on.

For some matters, proving an order was illegal is trivial to do (eg breaking the convention of rules of warfare), but in most cases it can be very-very hard to do. When a soldier is deployed they are often given a general "rules of engagement" (ROE) that is essentially the do/do-not list of things they can/cannot do. The soldiers must follow the ROE even if they may result in unlawful actions. (basically a solder needs to follow the USMCJ, federal laws, state laws, deployment rules and ROE). [...]

I was aware of this, but it feels like a deliberate obfuscation tactic to enable a "I was just following orders" defense considering the penalty for disobedience in wartime can include being put to death.

There's even a sort-of foolproof method by which one can get through an insubordination trial under this administration -- you just know Trump wouldn't be able to resist tweeting about anyone on trial for insubordination in this situation, and what he thinks should be done to the defendant -- no doubt hanging 'like the old days' or something similarly macabre and ghoulish -- which would be seen as the commander in chief putting the tribunal or whatever decides the guilt or innocence of these cases under undue and inappropriate pressure. The armed forces tries very very hard to avoid any appearance of this and would thus throw the case out. It's why after Obama simply said that those found guilty of sexual harassment or assault within the military should be discharged resulted in a sexual harassment case being thrown out in the twilight years of his term.

That said that's assuming they don't start operating like they'll be governing forever and don't have to be held accountable to anyone. Kind of like they already are.

I'm expecting a Kent State moment any day now. And then I expect Kent State moments to become the norm. I'm hoping I'm wrong, but hope has stopped springing eternal.
 

jtr1962

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Gotta love how one of Trump's campaign promises was to make the Epstein files public, and now the official line is that there are no Epstein files. Wonder who he's protecting with that move.
Probably most of the Republican party. Trump thought there would be mostly Democrats in those files. When he found out otherwise, there were suddenly no Epstein files.
 

Mercutio

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I think there is only one name being protected.
Not the minimize the issue, but the fact that actual millions of deaths can be laid at Trump's feet for his administration's handling of Covid, not to mention the cuts to medicaid and food assistance that will kill even more, is a far greater crime than rich men banging 14 year olds.

Have we talked about the fact that ICE is going to turn into a de facto unaccountable military force outside control of the Pentagon? The budget that was just passed includes plans to increase staffing by 20x, potentially around 150,000 agents. We're literally getting Secret Police.

We can jump up and down and scream about all of this but short of a popular uprising, I don't see an end to any of this. Even if the Administration were deposed, there are still too many billionaires who will just buy off whatever comes after.
 
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