Feeding your DSLR (flash memory)

[Stereodude]

Has anyone seen this article?

Do you agree with the test results, disagree, figure they're largely worthless?

Thoughts / comments?

 

[LunarMist]

The results are quite accurate in my considerable experience with DSLRs (100+ MP), CF cards (100s of GB) and SD cards. Notice that the write speed of some cheap cards does not measure up to snuff in real-world use. I used a similar home test - photographing a print at a fixed lighting level, ISO and exposure for consistency.

There are a few caveats to the data of course. Although new camera body results are sporadically added, the older camera bodies are usually not retested with newer cards. You are on your own in that case. Overall results may vary depending on scene complexity, ISO and accuracy of exposure, but should be proportional.

Card internal components may change over time, with the new versions usually being faster. For example the new SanDisk Extreme III cards are 50% faster than the previous ones and the difference is very noticeable in the write times. However, the different versions of some manufacturer's cards are not clearly identifiable. Some cards actually appear to be getting slower as x3 MLC memory is used to reduce production costs.

Formatting 4GB cards as FAT16 or formatting 8GB cards with larger than default clusters may improve performance in many, though not all, cases.

 

[Stereodude]

Card internal components may change over time, with the new versions usually being faster. For example the new SanDisk Extreme III cards are 50% faster than the previous ones and the difference is very noticeable in the write times.

So, in the Rebel XSi review which ones did they use? Can you tell?

 

[LunarMist]

The new EX3 cards are labeled 30MB/sec. and identified by "2008" in the tests. I did not find the latest Kiss/Rebel version. Maybe it is new. Nasty little bodies for normal hands to work with if my 400D is any example.

 

[Stereodude]

I did not find the latest Kiss/Rebel version. Maybe it is new.

The Rebel XSi SD / SDHC comparison is here, or were your comments about the CF Extreme III cards?

Edit: Nevermind, I saw it's specific to CF Extreme III's.

 

[LunarMist]

Perhaps the new Rebel bodies use the sh*t SD card system?

 

[Stereodude]

Perhaps the new Rebel bodies use the sh*t SD card system?

They do use SD / SDHC. What's the problem with SD / SDHC?

 

[udaman]

The new EX3 cards are labeled 30MB/sec. and identified by "2008" in the tests. I did not find the latest Kiss/Rebel version. Maybe it is new. Nasty little bodies for normal hands to work with if my 400D is any example.

Define *your* idea of 'normal' LM??? dd just bought the 450D and IIRC he's ~6ft 2"...but maybe he has little Asian hands and fingers, and conversely LM is a orangutan like Tea :rotfl: or Clinton, lol. I have US standard 'medium sized' hands and the Rebels are too big, too thick, too fat, too tall...too old, obsolete...ladies and gentlemen I am excited a pleased to be announcing today the Olympus Pico, the world's smallest and lightest dSLR (sorry my reality field distortion just temporarily morphed into Steve Jobs skit on SNL).

Only thing I don't like about the Rebel series as well as *all* smaller bodied dSLR's as far as ergonomics, is that they are not wide enough to hold ergonomically with two hands in standard SLR shooting fashion. Throw in a commander dial of the 40D, more to the right of the LCD than on the 40D, please; throw in the AF and other electronics including ISO6400 of the 1D MkIII, and we'd have a nice compact lightweight...serious dSLR, won't happen for another 5yrs or so.

Maybe I should just show you guys a picture of me holding, how it's done/was done with the ideal slim, lightweight, revolutionary Olympus OM-1/OM-2 body. Perhaps I could take my OM2 into Best Buy, and lay it next to the 450D, the *huge* 40D w/28-135IS and a D300 w/noticeably smaller 18-200VR as compared to Canon lens. The OM2 is as wide as a 40D or D300, but that's the only dimension that is the same.

Perhaps the new Rebel bodies use the sh*t SD card system?

LOL, I knew LM didn't know anything about the 450D, anymore than dd did when he bought his.

They do use SD / SDHC. What's the problem with SD / SDHC?

SDHC is limited to capacity compared to LM's preferred memory cards...you have to remember his bias, his use of cameras. If you don't take tons of pictures, in RAW mode, not a problem. Same for slightly lagging in top transfer/read/write speeds, not a problem for the majority of the target market...something LM, being biased by his own superiority like Tannin, can't understand.

 

[e_dawg]

Define *your* idea of 'normal' LM??? dd just bought the 450D and IIRC he's ~6ft 2"...but maybe he has little Asian hands and fingers, and conversely LM is a orangutan like Tea or Clinton, lol. I have US standard 'medium sized' hands and the Rebels are too big, too thick, too fat, too tall...too old, obsolete

Huh? Lots of people complain about how the Rebel series' grip is too small.

Only thing I don't like about the Rebel series as well as *all* smaller bodied dSLR's as far as ergonomics, is that they are not wide enough to hold ergonomically with two hands in standard SLR shooting fashion. [...]
Maybe I should just show you guys a picture of me holding, how it's done/was done with the ideal slim, lightweight, revolutionary Olympus OM-1/OM-2 body.

The OM bodies' "grip" is way too small as well. Hardly ergonomic. It's not like it saves space either because the lens protrudes much further than the body, making any nice-sized grip a positive in terms of ergonomics without much negative because it doesn't have a net impact on the depth of the camera-lens combination. Without a nice grip, you're essentially holding the camera by "pinching" it with your fingers, not too far removed from how you would a point & shoot.

 

[ddrueding]

The 450D's right-hand grip could be about half an inch thicker. That is my only complaint. It does use SD, but other than the fact I had accumulated CF cards, I have no complaints. They are smaller, not much slower, and hold enough (I'm using 8GB "Class 6" cards).

 

[ddrueding]

The OM bodies' "grip" is way too small as well. Hardly ergonomic. It's not like it saves space either because the lens protrudes much further than the body, making any nice-sized grip a positive in terms of ergonomics without much negative because it doesn't have a net impact on the depth of the camera-lens combination. Without a nice grip, you're essentially holding the camera by "pinching" it with your fingers, not too far removed from how you would a point & shoot.

Agreed.

 

[Stereodude]

The 450D's right-hand grip could be about half an inch thicker. That is my only complaint. It does use SD, but other than the fact I had accumulated CF cards, I have no complaints. They are smaller, not much slower, and hold enough (I'm using 8GB "Class 6" cards).

The interesting thing (at least to me) is that per the XSI tests on Rob Galbraith's site is there are plenty of Class 6 cards that are quite slow in the camera even though the same class 6 cards are as fast as the best in camera cards in a card reader connected to a PC.

Example:

Kingston Class 6 8GB
Camera: 1.982MB/sec / 2.911MB/sec
Card Reader: 21.655MB/sec

PNY Optima PRO 2GB
Camera: 11.039MB/sec / 14.335MB/sec
Card Reader: 21.678MB/sec

 

[e_dawg]

SDHC is limited to capacity compared to LM's preferred memory cards...you have to remember his bias, his use of cameras. If you don't take tons of pictures, in RAW mode, not a problem. Same for slightly lagging in top transfer/read/write speeds

I don't think SDHC cards are limited in capacity compared to CF cards anymore. SD has made a quantum leap in capacity since they started being used in camcorders as a storage medium for video. They're at 32 GB now and doubling every year. Speed is a different issue, as there are some fast cards out there, but as Stereodude points out, there are big differences between the fastest and slowest cards.

 

[ddrueding]

The interesting thing (at least to me) is that per the XSI tests on Rob Galbraith's site is there are plenty of Class 6 cards that are quite slow in the camera even though the same class 6 cards are as fast as the best in camera cards in a card reader connected to a PC.

Example:

Kingston Class 6 8GB
Camera: 1.982MB/sec / 2.911MB/sec
Card Reader: 21.655MB/sec

PNY Optima PRO 2GB
Camera: 11.039MB/sec / 14.335MB/sec
Card Reader: 21.678MB/sec

Yup. I finally had time to read the article this morning. I'm using Patriot 8GB SDHC Class 6, which didn't make his database.

 

[Stereodude]

Yup. I finally had time to read the article this morning. I'm using Patriot 8GB SDHC Class 6, which didn't make his database.

You could test it yourself. They basically tell you how they do it.

 

[ddrueding]

You could test it yourself. They basically tell you how they do it.

I will when I get home, I finally have some work

 

[Stereodude]

I will when I get home, I finally have some work

Any results to report?

 

[LunarMist]

SD cards are too small, flimsy, and fiddly to efficiently use in the field. They are better suited to cheapie DSLRs, P/S digicams, small video cameras, and consumer electronics.

SD technology and capacity vs. performance will probably continue to lag behind CF. CF will be using SATA modes by the time SD achieves the higher transfer rate of the current CF protocol.

 

[ddrueding]

Any results to report?

I will later today. It's supposed to be 100F here today (!) so we'll be heading down to Monterey, maybe taking my sailboat out.

 

[ddrueding]

SD cards are too small, flimsy, and fiddly to efficiently use in the field. They are better suited to cheapie DSLRs, P/S digicams, small video cameras, and consumer electronics.

SD technology and capacity vs. performance will probably continue to lag behind CF. CF will be using SATA modes by the time SD achieves the higher transfer rate of the current CF protocol.

Your speed argument I can understand, though SD has been making significant strides in that area. But the "small, flimsy, and fiddly" I don't. It is smaller, but that strikes me as a plus. I did some destructive testing with some smaller cards, and they held up quite well. Also the side-contact connections should hold up better and be easier to clean than the pin-based connectors on CF.

Heck, I'm really enjoying the MicroSD card in my cellphone. If they could get the speed/capacity up on those, I'd have a wallet full of them that was the size of a single CF card!

 

[e_dawg]

Say what you want about SD, but it's light years ahead of the pitiful xD crap that Olympus and Fuji keep trying to annoy us with. At least Fuji has somewhat backed away from xD, but Olympus put it right back into their latest dSLRs. Thakfully, they're not completely stupid. At least they have a CF slot in there too. So many brilliant engineers between the two companies, but they haven't managed to put it together...

 

[e_dawg]

And speaking of Fuji and Olympus, let's bring up the Four-Thirds consortium with Panasonic, Leica, Kodak, and Sigma counting amongst their members. How embarrassing that between the 6 of them, they are struggling to compete in the market. Both Kodak and Leica were on the verge of bankruptcy, Panasonic has, what, 0.1% of the dSLR market?... for every 10 Sigma lenses, it seems 1 or 2 of them are faulty, and Fuji has virtually left the dSLR market. What is with these clowns?

 

[ddrueding]

Any results to report?

Patriot Memory 8GB Class 6 SDHC (PSF8GSDHC6-PC)

RAW Writes from Canon 450D - 5.366MB/s with a StdDev of 0.091 after 10 tests.

It could be better, and I'll likely get one really fast one to use as my primary, but in real life it is fine. If you shoot JPEG large fine, you can shoot until the card is full. Only in RAW is the buffer limiting at all.

 

[e_dawg]

Rats. Just realized that the SD card I got from B&H a couple weeks ago is a Kingston Class 6 , placing quite low in the camera --> card test. Wish I knew about this test before I ordered it.

 

[Stereodude]

If you guys are feeling adventurous and don't have a fear of rebates...

Check out this deal!

The best deal is the 3 4GB Extreme III SDHC cards for $15.97 total after rebate ($41.99 * 3 - $110 rebate).

The 4GB Extreme III cards rank pretty high in terms of speed, and $5.32 each is pretty cheap.

 

[ddrueding]

Wow, Stereodude, nice find. Too bad the math isn't as favorable with 8GB cards. The 4GB is just too small with a 12MP body.

 

[Stereodude]

The 4GB is just too small with a 12MP body.

How do you figure? I have used 1GB cards for years with a 6MP EOS 10D without any complaints. The RAW files were about 7MB meaning I can fit ~140 on a card. In contrast, the Rebel XSi has 12MB (RAW) and 16MB (RAW+JPEG) files. That would be ~250 (RAW + JPEG) or ~340 (RAW) images on a 4GB card.

What am I missing?

 

[Handruin]

I can usually fit 250-ish RAW-only on a 4GB card with the 10MP 1D MIII (average RAW size for me is roughly 12MB, with some as low as 10 and as high as 15MB). That's enough for me to manage on a cards just fine.

 

[ddrueding]

My RAW files are averaging 16.4MB a piece. That means about 220 shots on a 4GB card. That is an afternoon for me, which would do fine, but I really don't like changing cards. Using 8GB cards means I don't need to carry spares for a day. I know Lunar likes to keep the number of shots per card down to reduce the risk, but has anyone actually had a card failure lead to poss of pictures?

 

[Stereodude]

My RAW files are averaging 16.4MB a piece. That means about 220 shots on a 4GB card. That is an afternoon for me, which would do fine, but I really don't like changing cards.

Wimp!

Using 8GB cards means I don't need to carry spares for a day. I know Lunar likes to keep the number of shots per card down to reduce the risk, but has anyone actually had a card failure lead to poss of pictures?

You can get 3 8GB cards for $61 after rebate now ($67 x 3 -$140). They just lowered the price a few bucks. That's only $20.33 per card.

 

[LunarMist]

My RAW files are averaging 16.4MB a piece. That means about 220 shots on a 4GB card. That is an afternoon for me, which would do fine, but I really don't like changing cards. Using 8GB cards means I don't need to carry spares for a day. I know Lunar likes to keep the number of shots per card down to reduce the risk, but has anyone actually had a card failure lead to poss of pictures?

Yes, thousands of people. It's like asking if you have ever had a hard drive fail. A home user with only a drive or two at one time may never have a failure. Of course you know better than that when seeing large numbers. The top tier cards such as SanDisks may have lower failure rates, but knows except them?

 

[ddrueding]

Well, I went ballistic this afternoon and only did ~200 shots in an hour. I think the 3 8GB cards I have now will hold me for a while.

 

[Stereodude]

Well, I went ballistic this afternoon and only did ~200 shots in an hour. I think the 3 8GB cards I have now will hold me for a while.

Someone should give you a film body to use for a day with only 36 shots and see what you get. No chimping, no deleting pictures, no taking hundreds of pictures.

 

[ddrueding]

Someone should give you a film body to use for a day with only 36 shots and see what you get. No chimping, no deleting pictures, no taking hundreds of pictures.

The primary reason for my trigger-happiness was a single bird and high wind. In order to get the shutter speed high enough I was shooting ISO400 and f5.6. Because of that the DOF sucked, and because of the wind the bird was all over the place. On top of that, I wasn't keeping it stable enough for the AF to function correctly, so I was doing manual focusing as well. The best I could do was just lean on the shutter and try to frame as best I could.

Out of ~100 pictures, I ended up getting three decent ones. If I had been shooting with film, I wouldn't even have tried.

 

[LunarMist]

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

 

[LunarMist]

Someone should give you a film body to use for a day with only 36 shots and see what you get. No chimping, no deleting pictures, no taking hundreds of pictures.

Hey, let's send David out there with an old Technika V and a half-dozen film holders.

 

[ddrueding]

Just send me out with 2 36MB SD cards

I would have for a couple hours, revisit several spots, and spend an hour setting up the shot. I'm already considering bringing a stool so I can park behind the tripod and contemplate the framing, lighting, etc.

IMHO, taking a million pictures only accelerates the learning curve. I could go out there, frame a bunch in the viewfinder, and then not hit the shutter. But with an 8GB card I can take the shot and give it a second thought later.

 

[LunarMist]

If you guys are feeling adventurous and don't have a fear of rebates...

Check out this deal!

The best deal is the 3 4GB Extreme III SDHC cards for $15.97 total after rebate ($41.99 * 3 - $110 rebate).

The 4GB Extreme III cards rank pretty high in terms of speed, and $5.32 each is pretty cheap.

Good luck on that. :roll: I bought 3x8GB EX3 (2008 model) and have yet to receive a rebate. I'm not expecting it given the wretched feedback on the recent SanDisk rebates.

 

[Stereodude]

Good luck on that. :roll: I bought 3x8GB EX3 (2008 model) and have yet to receive a rebate. I'm not expecting it given the wretched feedback on the recent SanDisk rebates.

I have pretty good luck with rebates. A lot of the people on Slickdeals got their rebates from earlier this year when the same promotion was going on. A few who had problems called and got 'em cleared up easily.