I need a new TV
- Thread starter Adcadet
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Pradeep
Storage? I am Storage!
Well it turns out the wife has Monday off so I'll be able to go to work. She took the news of the imminent arrival pretty well. Her exact words were "if it's over 50" I'll kill you." 
skeet
What is this storage?
Just poked my nose in to have a look and want to clear up a mis-conception. S-video is component. You might have different plugs depending on what type of compnent signal your dealing with ( I can think of 9 different types off the top of my head) S-video has basically two signals, luminance (black and white or "Y" for the techies) and colour (or "C" for the less bright among us) These are the the two "components" that make up the video. The broadcast version is YUV and has two colour signals (basically Red and Blue - Green is calculated) which is the equivalent of RGB in the computer world. YUV gives a better percieved picture quality over RGB when transmitted which is why we differ from a computers component signal. The reason component is better than composite (NTSC or PAL or SECAM) is because the colour signal isn't shoe-horned into a predefined transmittable bandwith, bigger colour bandwith = better quality. Still, anything is better than NTSC. Just my humble opinion.
skeet
What is this storage?
Just spotted Mercutio's intelligent reply. I have a question. The component that you speak of implies RGB. It's almost certainly YUV. Are we sure about RGB? Sony don't make any broadcast equipment with an RGB output so why would they put it on there tele's when Broadcasters globally are using YUV. And do we know if it's 4:1:1 or 4:2:2 (much more important). Just thought you might be able to clear it up. Personally, I play guitar rather than watch TV, I know what kind of w..kers make the stuff...
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I *thought* component it was sync-on-green RGB: one cable of luminence, and green-blue and green-red chroma. I might be mistaken, though.
Hi skeet, enjoyed the posts. Hope you drop by more often. Just thought that I would provide a clarification in that the "NTSC/PAL/SECAM" need not have been added to the above statement as they are, after all, only video standards and not the method of signal delivery. Although it is true that broadcast NTSC is transmitted in a composite signal, you can just as well have a NTSC source transmitted in a component signal - for example, from MPEG-2 encoded component video signals (DVDs, DTV etc..).skeet said:
Pradeep
Storage? I am Storage!
skeet said:
DVDs use 4:2:0. I Imagine HDTV uses more, but I don't know the exact number. Apparently the very high end DLP projectors used in digital cinema projectors use 4:4:4. Would be interesting to see.
Adcadet
Storage Freak
Post Script - got the Panasonic 27" HDTV and the Toshiba Tivo and love it. Just pulling in a regular (non-HDTV) signal off the cable (since our reception in the appartment sucks and I'm too lazy to figure out an antenna to get the HDTV stations that broadcast over the air). Regular broadcast looks so much better on HDTV than a regular tube....especially a 20 year-old regular tube.
Pradeep
Storage? I am Storage!
Does the Panasonic have a built-in HD tuner? If not you won't be able to receive HD signals without an external tuner.
PS Congrats
PS Congrats
Adcadet
Storage Freak
yes, the Panasonic has an internal HDTV tuner, though it doesn't get decent reception where it's at. The Tivo, however, is not HD so I can't record in HDTV. But for the price I decided the Toshiba DVD/Tivo unit was a steal ($200 for a DVD player and 80 hour Tivo with lifetime basic subscription).
Pradeep
Storage? I am Storage!
Sounds good. Especially with HD Tivos costing around $1000 buckaroos.
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
My wife & I are starting to discuss getting a 2nd TV set. We're also very likely going to ditch cable in favor of satellite. Funny, but the reason for doing so is not the cost nor the channel listings. The reason for doing so is the decoder box absolutely sucks. The UI is slow and primitive. You can only view 1/2 hour on the screen at any time. It has - get this - popup ads. You can't block channels you don't subscribe to or just don't watch. The remote is marginally adequate but that's about it. Really bad user experience.
So we're looking at satellite. I used to have DirecTV and it was fine. Anyone have any opinions on Dish vs. DirecTV? Both offer the same basic channels we are after for the same (or similar) price point. Both offer some HD capability. Both offer DVR recievers. Both have free startup costs. Really, there doesn't seem to be much to differentiate. Which is more reliable? Which company has better long term viability?
And on the TV side, there are two basic options:
1. Buy a cheap stereo (but not HD) 27" tube and put in the bedroom. Leave the 35" tube in the family room. Probably spend under $350.
2. Move the 35" to the bedroom and buy an HD-capable set, at least 40" and widescreen, for the family room.
Now, before you say a 35" TV is too large for a bedroom, our master BR is 16'x22', not including the 2 walk-in closets or master bath. It's actually a hair larger than the family room.
While I'm a technology freak, the constant price reductions on HD-capable sets tells me that taking option (1) may be wiser and then just plan on buying the HD set in a couple of years when prices will likely be 30-40% cheaper.
OTOH, buying the HD set now lets me start watching some HD content now instead of having to wait. It'd probably also make the DVDs we watch look better.
As to HD options, as I mentioned we'd go 40" or larger. RPTV, LCD, or plasma. Not tube (too bulky) and not a projector/screen (no proper ceiling mount w/out redoing the ceiling fan and some other stuff). I would also want 768 lines minimum; 1080 preferred.
Budget hasn't been set, but I'd like to stay in the $1500-$3000 range. We could go higher but that really starts to push the WAF. Not to mention this will be a cash purchase and funds aren't exactly unlimited.
I'm fairly open on brands but I'm not willing to consider the cheap Chinese brands. Samsung, Hitachi, Panasonic, Toshiba, Mitsubishi, Pioneer would all be fine as would most other known names.
Opinions on which option to take? On brands to consider? Or technologies to buy/avoid? RPTVs are definitely cheaper but the entry ones are apparently 480p.
So we're looking at satellite. I used to have DirecTV and it was fine. Anyone have any opinions on Dish vs. DirecTV? Both offer the same basic channels we are after for the same (or similar) price point. Both offer some HD capability. Both offer DVR recievers. Both have free startup costs. Really, there doesn't seem to be much to differentiate. Which is more reliable? Which company has better long term viability?
And on the TV side, there are two basic options:
1. Buy a cheap stereo (but not HD) 27" tube and put in the bedroom. Leave the 35" tube in the family room. Probably spend under $350.
2. Move the 35" to the bedroom and buy an HD-capable set, at least 40" and widescreen, for the family room.
Now, before you say a 35" TV is too large for a bedroom, our master BR is 16'x22', not including the 2 walk-in closets or master bath. It's actually a hair larger than the family room.
While I'm a technology freak, the constant price reductions on HD-capable sets tells me that taking option (1) may be wiser and then just plan on buying the HD set in a couple of years when prices will likely be 30-40% cheaper.
OTOH, buying the HD set now lets me start watching some HD content now instead of having to wait. It'd probably also make the DVDs we watch look better.
As to HD options, as I mentioned we'd go 40" or larger. RPTV, LCD, or plasma. Not tube (too bulky) and not a projector/screen (no proper ceiling mount w/out redoing the ceiling fan and some other stuff). I would also want 768 lines minimum; 1080 preferred.
Budget hasn't been set, but I'd like to stay in the $1500-$3000 range. We could go higher but that really starts to push the WAF. Not to mention this will be a cash purchase and funds aren't exactly unlimited.
I'm fairly open on brands but I'm not willing to consider the cheap Chinese brands. Samsung, Hitachi, Panasonic, Toshiba, Mitsubishi, Pioneer would all be fine as would most other known names.
Opinions on which option to take? On brands to consider? Or technologies to buy/avoid? RPTVs are definitely cheaper but the entry ones are apparently 480p.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I just saw a Digital Cable box for the first time. The Comcast box distributed in Northwest Indiana doesn't even have an Svideo output, and the TOSLink out is apparently disabled (or maybe it was broken on the unit I was trying to work with).
WTF is that all about?
DirecTV allows for DirecTivo, and offers more HD options if you go that route. IIRC it costs a little more, than Dish.
On the other hand, Dish isn't the company suing every single person in the US who purchased smart-card reading equipment and it's the company that tried to do the right thing and not accept a cost increase Viacom ultimately forced on it (something that I certainly do respect).
I really like my Samsung DLP set. It's technically projection but IMO it's more than bright enough, and it's smaller than a CRT. I can move mine by myself. IIRC the little one is pushing the edge of your $3000 budget.
WTF is that all about?
DirecTV allows for DirecTivo, and offers more HD options if you go that route. IIRC it costs a little more, than Dish.
On the other hand, Dish isn't the company suing every single person in the US who purchased smart-card reading equipment and it's the company that tried to do the right thing and not accept a cost increase Viacom ultimately forced on it (something that I certainly do respect).
I really like my Samsung DLP set. It's technically projection but IMO it's more than bright enough, and it's smaller than a CRT. I can move mine by myself. IIRC the little one is pushing the edge of your $3000 budget.
blakerwry
Storage? I am Storage!
The DVR boxes time warner gives out are crappy too. The UI is extremely slow, but its interface is ok. No popups ;-) Even switching channels is very slow (think 2 seconds minimum, sometimes longer)
The box have coax digital out, but it is unreliable. During content with dolby digital it works great. But when you switch back(or just switch channels) to stereo television, sometimes the box forgets to switch back to PCM mode and instead stops outputting sound altogether... It does have Svideo and I think it even has component video out.
The box have coax digital out, but it is unreliable. During content with dolby digital it works great. But when you switch back(or just switch channels) to stereo television, sometimes the box forgets to switch back to PCM mode and instead stops outputting sound altogether... It does have Svideo and I think it even has component video out.
blakerwry
Storage? I am Storage!
Oh, but the plain digital cable boxes are fine in my experience (atleast the pioneer one I had.. they now use scientific atlanta) has USB, Ethernet, Svideo, coax digital audio...
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
Mine does have S-Vid out. Unsure about TOSlink. Definitely no coaxial audio capability. It's a Motorola with an AT&T remote.
While not Tivo, Dish does have DVR receivers: http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/products/receivers/dvr/index.shtml The 522 I can get for free AR. Main limitation is you have to watch what you're recording. But that can be circumvented as the unit is a dual-decoder; just feed the 2nd decoder to the PIP input. But it's not HD. The 921 that does HD is also about a grand.
Looking at Samsung's site right now. Geez it's slow.
While not Tivo, Dish does have DVR receivers: http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/products/receivers/dvr/index.shtml The 522 I can get for free AR. Main limitation is you have to watch what you're recording. But that can be circumvented as the unit is a dual-decoder; just feed the 2nd decoder to the PIP input. But it's not HD. The 921 that does HD is also about a grand.
Looking at Samsung's site right now. Geez it's slow.
My F-in-Law as a SA Explorer 3250 digital cable box for his HD cable TV. I believe it has S-Video and the three Component video outputs as well as coaxial digial composite audio output. Probably has the composite and analog video outputs too but I wasn't really looking to close.
My Explorer 3200 (non HD) box has S-video as well as Composite video out and coaxial digital audio out (which only works with the digital channels (300-520 or so)) and composite audio output. I use the digital audio to get the 5.1 sound for the channels that broadcast the 5.1 movies. I had to but a coaxial-to-optical convert to make it work with my HT system though (about $20).
C
My Explorer 3200 (non HD) box has S-video as well as Composite video out and coaxial digital audio out (which only works with the digital channels (300-520 or so)) and composite audio output. I use the digital audio to get the 5.1 sound for the channels that broadcast the 5.1 movies. I had to but a coaxial-to-optical convert to make it work with my HT system though (about $20).
C
Pradeep
Storage? I am Storage!
One thing I have noticed is that whilst my 47" appeared to be way too big at delivery, over the weeks it has shrunk down in perceptible size. I would say that even the massive 65"ers would be Ok after a while. However SD is going to look like diarrhea on something that large.
DLP sets are nice and compact and have 720p capability, but check that you don't see rainbows before buying one. Great if you use one for gaming as burn-in is not a factor (as long as you can afford an occasional bulb).
All the current RP CRT based sets are 480p/1080i, most can take a 720p signal and convert it to 1080i. By the end of the year there will be 1080p DLP sets available, not cheap however. Other options for 1080p are LCOS/D-ILA etc.
For your money, if you can take the larger weight/depth, you just can't beat CRT rear projection in value. If you go for one of the higher end Mitsubishis they use 9" CRTs and have very high resolution capability. My 47" has 7" guns and it looks pretty damn good to me. Admittedly I have only seen the Sammy DLPs at CC display (not ideal conditions) but they seemed a bit pixelly/digital to my eyes. Especially any kind of panning/motion.
DLP sets are nice and compact and have 720p capability, but check that you don't see rainbows before buying one. Great if you use one for gaming as burn-in is not a factor (as long as you can afford an occasional bulb).
All the current RP CRT based sets are 480p/1080i, most can take a 720p signal and convert it to 1080i. By the end of the year there will be 1080p DLP sets available, not cheap however. Other options for 1080p are LCOS/D-ILA etc.
For your money, if you can take the larger weight/depth, you just can't beat CRT rear projection in value. If you go for one of the higher end Mitsubishis they use 9" CRTs and have very high resolution capability. My 47" has 7" guns and it looks pretty damn good to me. Admittedly I have only seen the Sammy DLPs at CC display (not ideal conditions) but they seemed a bit pixelly/digital to my eyes. Especially any kind of panning/motion.
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Circuit City told me $300. I'm assuming I'll be able to find them for less than that when I get around to needing one.
Bookmage
What is this storage?
Thats about the right. I've seen the Samsung bulb for around 250$ with an average lamp life of 8000 hours. I've asked our TV Tech about those and if I remember right, we ( Circuit City) gets the bulbs for around 200$-300$. I'll have to double check with him tomorrow, but I know sometimes they use refurbished parts. Although I don't think we use refurbished bulbs...
Most parts come from the manufacturer, (I know Sony ones do) but they may ship refurbished parts.
Check out the Samsung DLP FAQ at AVS
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=256065
Most parts come from the manufacturer, (I know Sony ones do) but they may ship refurbished parts.
Check out the Samsung DLP FAQ at AVS
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=256065
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
Thanks for the link, Bookmage. Sounds like waiting until later this year would be wise. By then the Samsung 1080 DLPs will be out. Not interested in the 61" model listed, but something in the 42-55 range would be fine. Maybe the budget will improve by then as well.
That still leaves the satellite question unanswered. Ideally I want an HD-capable, PVR-equipped decoder/receiver that has dual-tuner capability and can record HD as well as standard def material. And can record one source while watching another (hence the dual-tuner). And a multi-room capable dish.
While I'm at it I'd like it to be free. After rebate acceptable. 8)
That still leaves the satellite question unanswered. Ideally I want an HD-capable, PVR-equipped decoder/receiver that has dual-tuner capability and can record HD as well as standard def material. And can record one source while watching another (hence the dual-tuner). And a multi-room capable dish.
While I'm at it I'd like it to be free. After rebate acceptable. 8)
Pradeep
Storage? I am Storage!
Fushigi said:
The HDTivos have two ATSC (OTA) tuners and two sat tuners. You can record two shows at once, in any combination, whilst watching a third already recorded show. Or watch one show live whilst recording another. For the dual tuner models I believe they run two lines of co-ax from the dish to the receiver.
The Dish 921 is still in very limited release AFAIK, I believe it only has a single OTA tuner, in addition to the dual sat tuners. Either way it's about a grand either option. Makes paying $5 bucks a month to the cable company for an HD DVR box quite attractive, even with the higher monthly cost of subscription. I'm guessing you will still have cable for your broadband?
Personally I'm looking at Dish simply because they look like the only providers that show cricket. But if it's not offered in HD I might as well get the cheaper dual tuner SD recorder.
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
Yes. Work re-imburses me for that so it stays. I will lose the TV-Internet bundle discount, but, well, work re-imburses me.Pradeep said:
About a grand for the ideal DVR, huh? Ouch. Maybe I'll talk to Comcast afterall. If the UI on the HD cablebox is decent and not so totally crappy as the regular one I may just stay the course.
Thanks.
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
The subject had mostly died off for a while, but a recent visit to Radioshack brought it back to life. It appears Dish Network has an interesting offer for $799:
- 1 HD Satellite decoder that also accepts & decodes over-the-air HD broadcasts & includes an antenna.
- 1 34" or 40" HDTV monitor that does 1080i (made by Thomson).
- Free installation (after rebate).
That doesn't include an HD PVR, but that can be added for another $600 (25 hours with a 250GB disk). I'd probably pass on that at least to start.
How is this a bad deal? What am I missing?
- 1 HD Satellite decoder that also accepts & decodes over-the-air HD broadcasts & includes an antenna.
- 1 34" or 40" HDTV monitor that does 1080i (made by Thomson).
- Free installation (after rebate).
That doesn't include an HD PVR, but that can be added for another $600 (25 hours with a 250GB disk). I'd probably pass on that at least to start.
How is this a bad deal? What am I missing?
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Tube made by Thompson?
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
Yeah, I know. Visions of cheap RCA / Thomson / Philips garbage has danced through my head. Online reviews of the combo seem to be in short supply. But as a 'starter set' for $800, even if it doesn't last that long or the pic isn't as good as the brand new Mitsu DLPs (very, very nice. Better than Sony, Samsung, etc.), it should still be a nice improvement over the SD tube we watch now.
Pradeep
Storage? I am Storage!
I believe reviews of the combo pack in avsforum came out to be good, especially in the value for money side.
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
Sorry; should be "Visions ... have" instead of "has". At least I caught it before the grammar police.
The thing that bothers me a little still is the SD picture is supposedly not that good. But others have chimed in to say it's not the TV but the Dish decoder at fault. I suppose it should matter, unless I can't get HD locals over-the-air. Also a little wary about that since most of their antennae are 30+ miles away. How far does an over-the-air HD signal carry?
This set would also let me upgrade DVD output from S-Video to Component. My current DVD player doesn't offer DVI or HDMI as it's from around 1999. Amazingly enough, it appears Pioneer still sells the same model today, although it looks like they've cheapened the case by removing the rosewood side panels.
That was my general impression as well. When discussing the whole 'let's get another TV' thing with my wife, it has been along the lines of two choices: Cheap SDTV (maybe $400-500) or very nice HDTV ($4K+). This offer seems to be a good compromise. Get what seems to be an OK HDTV for just a small premium over the SDTV option. If it proves to only be an OK set, it'll still probably do for 2-3 years, allowing prices on the better sets to fall further.Pradeep said:
The thing that bothers me a little still is the SD picture is supposedly not that good. But others have chimed in to say it's not the TV but the Dish decoder at fault. I suppose it should matter, unless I can't get HD locals over-the-air. Also a little wary about that since most of their antennae are 30+ miles away. How far does an over-the-air HD signal carry?
This set would also let me upgrade DVD output from S-Video to Component. My current DVD player doesn't offer DVI or HDMI as it's from around 1999. Amazingly enough, it appears Pioneer still sells the same model today, although it looks like they've cheapened the case by removing the rosewood side panels.
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
I think you're safe from the Grammar Police, they seem to have fallen asleep.
Pradeep
Storage? I am Storage!
Fushigi said:
I can sometimes get Buffalo HD which is over 50 miles away. It all depends on what kind of hills/mountains are in the way I guess, and your antenna.
Rosewood side panels? Sounds like an Elite model. Have you got many LDs?
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
Chicagoland is fairly flat & some stations have their antennae on the top of skyscrapers anyway (CBS is on the Sears Tower). So maybe OTA HD isn't too far fetched.Pradeep said:
Yes, the DVL-919 is an Elite. I still have around 100 movies + 125 or so anime LDs. While I've converted a few to DVD, I keep the capability for a few reasons:
- Imports that can't really be replaced.
- Some, like my Star Wars LD box, cost a lot of money and contain the non-screwed up version.
- The limited edition Amadeus box set .. mine is #7 of 10,000 (my retailer was the first to get shipments).
- Some things are available on DVD for a decent price, like the BBC show The Prisoner, but I've little actual reason to re-buy them.
- Resale on used LDs stinks.
I also still have an Onkyo turntable (almost 20 years old) and around a hundred LPs.
One reason I went with my Denon AVR-5700 was it still had a phono connector while many other amps were dropping them.Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
Can't say I have but then I've been mostly ignoring tube sets this time around. Prior to the Dish offer I wasn't considering anything smaller than 50".i said:
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Circuit City carries them. They look really nice.
Jake the Dog
Storage is cool
sorry to drag this duscussion back to signal format but I thought I might be able to contribute.
merc and skeet are right when they say s-video and RGsB are component video but techincally any seprated video signal is "component video". typically though non-professionals use the term component to describe YIQ/YUV. the various RGB flavours are typically refferd to as "RGB component". S-Video is usally termed S-Video or incorrectly, S-VHS.
skeet, I'd be interested to hear more on why you say "YUV gives a better percieved picture quality over RGB when transmitted." RGB requires more bandwith than component and can suffer from poor cabling etc, but when transmitted appropriately, RGB is the ultimately best.
merc and skeet are right when they say s-video and RGsB are component video but techincally any seprated video signal is "component video". typically though non-professionals use the term component to describe YIQ/YUV. the various RGB flavours are typically refferd to as "RGB component". S-Video is usally termed S-Video or incorrectly, S-VHS.
skeet, I'd be interested to hear more on why you say "YUV gives a better percieved picture quality over RGB when transmitted." RGB requires more bandwith than component and can suffer from poor cabling etc, but when transmitted appropriately, RGB is the ultimately best.
Pradeep
Storage? I am Storage!
Whilst this thread is resurrected I might as well update it too. Finally moved to the new digs and got digital cable. Got the SA 8300HD DVR from TWC, it can record two shows in HD whislt showing an already recorded show. HDMI and component outputs, and co-ax digital audio out. Has an external SATA port for adding an additional HDD.
HD looks absolutely unbelievable. It's hard to go back to watching SD. I'm in the process of putting up an antenna in the attic to get Buffalo or Syracuse CBS/FOX, currently local CBS affiliate only broadcasts in SD digital. And FOX HD channel isn't carried by TWC (they are fighting over money).
HD looks absolutely unbelievable. It's hard to go back to watching SD. I'm in the process of putting up an antenna in the attic to get Buffalo or Syracuse CBS/FOX, currently local CBS affiliate only broadcasts in SD digital. And FOX HD channel isn't carried by TWC (they are fighting over money).
Jake the Dog
Storage is cool
now that's a DVR :thumbleft:
we have very little HD content down here. like 3 hours per day on free to air, none on cable and only a few HD titles in stores. in way it's a good thing as I can't allow myself the cost of all the HD gear I would want to have! :roll:
we have very little HD content down here. like 3 hours per day on free to air, none on cable and only a few HD titles in stores. in way it's a good thing as I can't allow myself the cost of all the HD gear I would want to have! :roll: