Intel Retail HSF Spec

[mubs]

Since there are system builders here, maybe someone can help, even though most are AMD only types.

I need to replace the fans on a couple of Intel retail heat sinks; they're very noisy. The procs are Coppermine P3 800/100 FC-PGA's sitting in Abit Slotket IIIs in a dual Slot-1 Tyan board. So size is an issue; the space between the two procs is minimal, and the Dimms are in front of Proc#2, and the Northbridge passive heat-sink is immediately in front of Proc#2. The Retail HS is 60x55x27.5 mm, and the fan is only 18mm deep, for a total depth of 45.5mm. The fans are really small (30mm?) and spin at ~ 4625 (Proc#1) and 4275 (Proc#2) RPM. Case temp is ~23° C; Proc#1 ~35°C and Proc#2 ~32°C.

Because of size constraints, few aftermarket HSF combos will fit. The heat sink alone of the beloved Spire/Speeze WhisperRock is the size of the HSF currently in use! I'd have to settle for 1U rackmount coolers which run the proc hot and are terribly noisy themselves, and costly besides. The cheapest option is to replace the fans. The other problem is that without knowing how much noise the present HSF is making (in terms of numbers), I think it would be foolish to buy something that could end up being just as noisy.

The goal is to quieten things down without losing too much by way of cooling. To accomplish this, I need to know the spec of the fans currently in use.

I'm finding it impossible to get noise/CFM info on them. The fans are made by Nidec, and Nidec says they're custom designed and proprietary to Intel and so won't divulge any info. I've shot an email to Intel but haven't heard back (don't think I will). Googling results in a very bad S/N ratio. Can someone help?

After researching fan mfrs., I've found some quite models made by Dynatron, Sunon. Anybody know offhand where I could buy those?

Thanks as always.

 

[Howell]

I have a few ppga heat sinks & fans that I would like to sell. I would bet that they are all higher quality than OEM. One of them has a copper base. I have the specs for the fans too. Let me know if you are interested and I'll dig up a price.

 

[Howell]

I remind you that the better the heatsink the slower/quieter you can run the fan and get the same temps.

 

[blakerwry]

your temps are fine.. i wouldnt worry about running those chips as hot as 50C or more.

If you know the size of the fan and you know how fast it spins why are you going through so much trouble?

it's simple, just get fans that spin slower and it will result in less noise... manufactur's claims about dB levels are just a bunch of crap, ignore the claims. If you get fans of the same dimensions then they are likey to produce the same amount of air when ran at the same speed.. so STOP WORRYING, you're doing too much thinking. KISS.

The fans are probably 40mm, i think the next lowest size is 25mm, but that is really small and I think 40mm is more likely.

In my experience Nidec fans are the most reliable out there.. and since mosts 40mm fans are crap I'd keep the nidecs and just get a fan mate or other variable fan speed controller.


If you don't like that idea, just buy a replacement ~3000-3500rpm 40mm fan for the HSFs

 

[mubs]

Blake, thanks, but the idea is to cut down the noise with little or no rise in temps. I think going with a slow 50-60mm fan should be ok.

Howell, thanks. The easiest would be to switch fans without removing the sink from the proc. Without going into the price issue, do your HSFs meet the size/noise criteria I'm looking for?

No info on the stock fan, I guess?

 

[blakerwry]

Blake, thanks, but the idea is to cut down the noise with little or no rise in temps. I think going with a slow 50-60mm fan should be ok.

Howell, thanks. The easiest would be to switch fans without removing the sink from the proc. Without going into the price issue, do your HSFs meet the size/noise criteria I'm looking for?

No info on the stock fan, I guess?

50mm fans are rare, but they're out there(directron.com)... 60mm fans would be far more available and would give you more choices. Off the top of my head, something 60x15mm and ~3000rpm would probably be an equivalent air movier to your 40's.

The problem would be mounting it... which is entirely related to the HSFs you're using. Funnels are generally bad... so if you can't just plain old stick the 60mm fan right on the HSF(screws or adheasive) then you should probably look for another HSF that will accept a 60mm fan.

 

[NRG = mc²]

Keep the heatsinks, detach the fans and use a Zalman FB123

http://www.zalman.co.kr/english/product/fb123.htm

This way you can hang the 92mm fan above both (if it doesn't cover both CPUs then use a 120mm fan), and have it turned down (~20dB) with the included resistor. This should give more than adequate cooling and whisper quiet.

The fans are really small (30mm?)

Most P3 fans are 50mm IIRC. 25mm are used almost exclusively in laptops and are noisy, inefficient buggers.

Alternatively, Molex does the radial fin coolers rated at 18dB but they tend to get noisy and clogged up with dirt over time. The Zalman fan solution is probably the best cooling and cheapest.

 

[NRG = mc²]

I know a few people who just yank the fans off the heatsinks and run them stable passive. They get hot alright but they work, apparently.

 

[blakerwry]

i run a passive pIII 650... it doesn't even get hot.. just a little warm.

I don't understand why you would want to cool down your CPU below say 40C... there's no advantage to having your CPU cooled below that point and there are obvious disadvantages (noise, money, power draw).

 

[Jan Kivar]

i run a passive pIII 650... it doesn't even get hot.. just a little warm.

I don't understand why you would want to cool down your CPU below say 40C... there's no advantage to having your CPU cooled below that point and there are obvious disadvantages (noise, money, power draw).

I used to run PIII 600 MHz (Coppermine, undervolted to 1.3V) with retail HSF. At full fan speed the processor (measured from the HS) had temp of 32 deg C. When I found SpeedFan, I could drop the fan speed to 70%, seeing only 1-2 deg rise. At that point the fan was inaudible, or all fan noise I could hear was the noise of the PSU fan.

I upgraded the computer with 1.3 GHz Celeron II with retail HSF (BTW nice to see Tualatin in BX mobo... Thanks PowerLeap!). With the fan at full blast, I get 35-36 degs, with the fan turned down to 65% (again the fan inaudible), I get temps around 38-40 (depending on the ambient temp). Measured again from the HS, with the thermistor taped under the HS.

I tried to turn off the fan (You can do it with SpeedFan, if the motherboard supports fan speed adjusting!). I watched the temps rising up to 54 deg C, at which point I turned on the fan again. The temp rose by one degree in every 2-4 seconds, and most certainly would have climbed even more if I hadn't turned the fan back on.

I should have tested the same with the PIII. I haven't underclocked the CII yet. The PowerLeap adapter has minimum voltage of 1.1V (CII's stock is 1.5V), so I'll have some headroom. Too bad that the voltage is selected by four jumpers and the adapter comes only with two. Standard jumpers won't fit. IIRC I can set 1.3V with only two jumpers, so I'll have some more testing to do.

Cheers,

Jan

 

[mubs]

Thanks everybody.

NRG, that Zalman bracket you linked to looks interesting. Where does the bracket itself mount? Looks like the shelf into which add-in cards are screwed into? Wouldn't the weight of the bracket and the fan, and the rotating forces of the fan be too much for the shelf to handle? Even in cases made of 1mm steel, the shelf is pretty flimsy. The other issue is that this motherboard is a slot-1, so the hatsink is not looking up but is looking at the inside of the front of the case. Not sure if the fan fixed to the Zalman bracket can be angled to blow a little more directly on the face of the heatsinks.

Blake, my "goal" is not to keep the CPU temps below 40°C; that's the way they're running now. Since I have no idea of the CFM of the present fans, I was just concerned that putting too slow a fan (on what is probably a pretty lousy HS) might heat things up too much. A socketed motherboard offers a lot more options that a slot-1 motherboard for cooling. If this one was socketed, I'd probably remove the fans from the HS, cut an intake blowhole in the side panel, fix a 120mm Panaflo in there, and rig a ducting system (made of cardboard) to direct air to the CPU and chipset areas.

 

[blakerwry]

Thanks everybody.

NRG, that Zalman bracket you linked to looks interesting. Where does the bracket itself mount? Looks like the shelf into which add-in cards are screwed into? Wouldn't the weight of the bracket and the fan, and the rotating forces of the fan be too much for the shelf to handle? Even in cases made of 1mm steel, the shelf is pretty flimsy. The other issue is that this motherboard is a slot-1, so the hatsink is not looking up but is looking at the inside of the front of the case. Not sure if the fan fixed to the Zalman bracket can be angled to blow a little more directly on the face of the heatsinks.

Blake, my "goal" is not to keep the CPU temps below 40°C; that's the way they're running now. Since I have no idea of the CFM of the present fans, I was just concerned that putting too slow a fan (on what is probably a pretty lousy HS) might heat things up too much. A socketed motherboard offers a lot more options that a slot-1 motherboard for cooling. If this one was socketed, I'd probably remove the fans from the HS, cut an intake blowhole in the side panel, fix a 120mm Panaflo in there, and rig a ducting system (made of cardboard) to direct air to the CPU and chipset areas.

what's keeping you from drilling a hole in the top of the case? and using it as a blow hole, having a fan at the bottom of a duct and blowing the hot air up and out of the case?

 

[NRG = mc²]

The bracket screws on to the case using the holes that hold the PCI cards in place. You put in your PCI cards, then put the fan bracket on top, and pass the screw through all of them. It is held very firmly in place.

Furthermore you can use the bracket to hang another fan of any size (case dimensions permitting) to the bottom part so that you also get ventilation on your PCI cards.

Heres a pic of one in the system I use for demonstrations. (I am a silent compnent reseller). The fan position can be adjusted to be directly in line with the heatsink. I wouldn't bother about the fact that it would be blowing on the side of the heatsink, I'm 99% sure it would work fine like that.

 

[NRG = mc²]

Whoops heres the pic:

http://www.quietbits.co.uk/img/fb123.jpg

 

[NRG = mc²]

Damn, strange, it won't let me link directly...

oh well try this one:

http://www.rotting-energy.net/Forums/fb123.jpg

And yes, you can install cards in the slots covered by the fan

 

[mubs]

NRG, thanks for the link and the pics - very clear how it works. Amazingly, Zalman's own pics don't show that crucial part - how it's frixed to the case!

Blake, I think you've misunderstood the entire problem. As of now, all temps are fine, but noise is a problem. I started this thread with the intention of reducing noise but not having my CPU temps go steeply up in the process. The case temps are absolutely fine, and I don't need more air flow through it.

Removing the CPU fans would create hotspots - the two slot-1 CPU's are in close proximity.

 

[blakerwry]

NRG, thanks for the link and the pics - very clear how it works. Amazingly, Zalman's own pics don't show that crucial part - how it's frixed to the case!

Blake, I think you've misunderstood the entire problem. As of now, all temps are fine, but noise is a problem. I started this thread with the intention of reducing noise but not having my CPU temps go steeply up in the process. The case temps are absolutely fine, and I don't need more air flow through it.

Removing the CPU fans would create hotspots - the two slot-1 CPU's are in close proximity.

lol, i think i should just stay out of this thread because we obviously are not communicating on the same lines.

 

[Howell]

Howell, thanks. The easiest would be to switch fans without removing the sink from the proc. Without going into the price issue, do your HSFs meet the size/noise criteria I'm looking for?

I have one Alpha PEP66T + YSTech fan:

Alpha PEP66T, 65 x 62.4 x 60 mm, side mount, & YS-Tech FD1260257B-2A, 12V, .18A, ballbearing, 60x60x25mm, 26.10cfm, 35.0dB(A), 4,200rpm, 3-wire

http://www.dansdata.com/coolercomp.htm#Alpha PEP66
http://www.overclockers.com/articles527/

Note that the fan can be mounted on either side of the shroud. I actually bought this HSF for exactly the application you want it for.

It would really help me to know how much room you have to work with so I can investigate my pile. I was working with a dually so I used a ruler. Besides the PEP66T I have three or four others that might work.

 

[mubs]

Thanks, Howell, for now we need to hold off though.

Installed a Vantec Nexus NXP-201 4-channel voltage controller. It's a great product, but I need to reconfigure a little bit to see whether it's sufficient (have too many fans in the case) or the HSFs still need to be replaced. Will post back here with a Merc-style mini-review.

Blake, FYI: the case is an Antec SX-1030. The front was Dremelled to enlarge the two 80mm fan intakes to 92mm. There are two 92mm Panaflo L1As in there now, mounted with screws (the Antec fan snap-in brackets had to go to enlarge the holes). The rear two 80mm exhaust setup from the original was left unchanged, but there's only one fan there now, a Panaflo 80mm L1A. The stock Antec PP-303x (or whatever 300W PS) has an automatic fan in it as well. Then there are the two HSFs. Two HHDs. One FDD. Used to have three opticals; one was pulled out. Almost the enire case has been lined with Accumat (to reduce vibes and rattle). Overall the case is well made and has good air flow.

Someday I'll seal off the two rear 80mm openings and make a 120mm blowhole in the top panel to exhaust warm air.

 

[jtr1962]

I upgraded the computer with 1.3 GHz Celeron II with retail HSF (BTW nice to see Tualatin in BX mobo... Thanks PowerLeap!). With the fan at full blast, I get 35-36 degs, with the fan turned down to 65% (again the fan inaudible), I get temps around 38-40 (depending on the ambient temp). Measured again from the HS, with the thermistor taped under the HS.

Interestingly, I'm getting similar temps(<40°C) with my Tualatin upgrade as well even though I have the 1.4 GHz version and it's overclocked to 1.568 GHz. I haven't bothered yet trying to turn down the fan speed, but based on my experience playing around with heat sinks, fans, and thermoelectric modules you get about a 25% temperature rise by cutting the fan speed to 2/3 so your results are right in line assuming the temp inside the case of around 27° C.

 

[Jan Kivar]

I upgraded the computer with 1.3 GHz Celeron II with retail HSF (BTW nice to see Tualatin in BX mobo... Thanks PowerLeap!). With the fan at full blast, I get 35-36 degs, with the fan turned down to 65% (again the fan inaudible), I get temps around 38-40 (depending on the ambient temp). Measured again from the HS, with the thermistor taped under the HS.

Interestingly, I'm getting similar temps(<40°C) with my Tualatin upgrade as well even though I have the 1.4 GHz version and it's overclocked to 1.568 GHz. I haven't bothered yet trying to turn down the fan speed, but based on my experience playing around with heat sinks, fans, and thermoelectric modules you get about a 25% temperature rise by cutting the fan speed to 2/3 so your results are right in line assuming the temp inside the case of around 27° C.

Actually, I think that the temp inside the case is higher than that. The case I'm using is an old version ofEnlight EN-7237 with 235W PSU. The case has really poor cooling, only fan is in the PSU. There is a 80mm fan mount in the front, but it has no use in cooling. The motherboard's other temp sensor shows temps around 39-43, but I think that it's too near to the Voodoo3 2000 that I have. It has only 30z30 mm heatsink, and I've added a 40mm fan to cool it more, but it's still very hot.

I'm unsure whether the PSU has a thermistor controlled fan or not, but I'm starting to think that the noise gets louder as the computer gets hotter. I've thought of getting a new case (to reduce the noise), but I'd have to get rid of this case first.

I planned to get the 1.4 GHz version too, but unfortunately the store didn't have it in stock when I went to buy. They don't even sell the 370-pin Celerons anymore, only the PIII Tualatins.

Cheers,

Jan

 

[blakerwry]

[quote="Jan KivarActually, I think that the temp inside the case is higher than that. The case I'm using is an old version ofEnlight EN-7237 with 235W PSU. The case has really poor cooling, only fan is in the PSU. There is a 80mm fan mount in the front, but it has no use in cooling. [/quote]


That's alomost sacreligious. I'm using a 7237 and it has the best cooling I've seen out of any case I've ever used. Not because it has a bajillion fan mounts, but because it has just 2 in addition to the PSU and still cools better than any thing else at the same noise level.

My next case certainly wont be an overpriced hunk of steel, it'll be another Enlight.

 

[Jan Kivar]

[quote="Jan Kivar]Actually, I think that the temp inside the case is higher than that. The case I'm using is an old version ofEnlight EN-7237 with 235W PSU. The case has really poor cooling, only fan is in the PSU. There is a 80mm fan mount in the front, but it has no use in cooling.

That's alomost sacreligious. I'm using a 7237 and it has the best cooling I've seen out of any case I've ever used. Not because it has a bajillion fan mounts, but because it has just 2 in addition to the PSU and still cools better than any thing else at the same noise level.

My next case certainly wont be an overpriced hunk of steel, it'll be another Enlight.[/quote]

Blake, I'd like to emphasize on "old version": The case was bought in 1999. It has the notorious one-piece cover and only the front fan mount. There is no back fan mount (allthough I've started to think about making one). I have nothing against the case per se, nor to Enlight. It just doesn't have a back fan mount. I'm betting You have the newer version with separate cover pieces. My friend had one, and it was so much easier to open and close (plus my case is bit bent, so I have to put the cover on with force).

Cheers,

Jan

 

[blakerwry]

i got mine circa 2000


front plastic bezel... seperate left and right side panels and a riveted on top and maybe bottom panel.

Not exactly the easiest case to get into, but it's not hard.

are you saying yours has one exterior panel that covers the sides and the top?

 

[Jan Kivar]

i got mine circa 2000


front plastic bezel... seperate left and right side panels and a riveted on top and maybe bottom panel.

Not exactly the easiest case to get into, but it's not hard.

are you saying yours has one exterior panel that covers the sides and the top?

Yup, that's right. First I have to rip the front bezel off, then the whole cover slides off... Or it should, as I mentioned, the case is bit bent, so it comes off with force. PITA compared to my Antec...

Jan

 

[Tea]

Anyone mind if I ask a dumb question?

(Why should anyone mind, Tea? It's not as if they are not used to it.)

(Thanks, Tannin. Remind me not to forget about putting salt in your tea. Ahem ... Az I waz zaying ...)

I thought that P-4s simply clock throttled themselves back to maintain a sensible temperature no matter how bad the cooling was?

 

[Jan Kivar]

I thought that P-4s simply clock throttled themselves back to maintain a sensible temperature no matter how bad the cooling was?

Yes, Tea, they do. Too bad that we have zero PIVs in this thread though. These Celerons are based on the Tualatin-core (PIII, that is).

The cooling is not so bad either (below 40 deg C), I just could lower the noise a bit if I had any extra fan mounts in the back.

Cheers,

Jan

 

[Tea]

OK, zo I'm ztupid. What else is new? :-?

 

[Jan Kivar]

OK, zo I'm ztupid. What else is new? :-?

No, Tea, You are not. The only stupid question is the one which is not asked...

Jan

 

[Tea]

Thankyou Jan. OK, I know I'm off topic in this thread, but do P-4s behave like that? I'd have a hard time forcing myself to run any modern CPU without proper cooling, but I gather that, if ou were dumb enopugh to want to do it you could use a P-4, yes?

 

[Jan Kivar]

Thankyou Jan. OK, I know I'm off topic in this thread, but do P-4s behave like that? I'd have a hard time forcing myself to run any modern CPU without proper cooling, but I gather that, if ou were dumb enopugh to want to do it you could use a P-4, yes?

Unless the processor is something like 3 GHz with Hyper Threading enabled, the only time PIV will throttle back is when the CPU fan stops/breaks. IIRC there is/was a video at Tom's Hardware where the HSF was removed from PIV and Athlon XP when running Q3. PIV kept going (though it slowed down), and Athlon fried almost instantly.

So it's more like fail-safe than an useful feature.

Cheers,

Jan