Merging Computers Part II: the media center

Adcadet

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hey all -
my fiance and I have been talking some more, and it seems we might want to turn my current desktop (Dual Athlon 1.2GHz, 512MB, two 19" monitors, etc) into a sortof media station. My fiance really likes cable TV, and she tends to record many shows for me (don't ask which ones, please...it's kindof embarrasing). HD TV is coming, making her 13" TV obsolete soon, not to mention a pain to watch. I also hate VCRs. We dont' have a regular DVD player, just our computers. So I mentioned to her that we could turn my desktop into a "media center" with a TV tuner card and a large HD to record TV shows. And with the dual 19" monitors, my fiance can do other stuff (editing pictures/udating her website, or surfing) while watching TV.

Does anybody have experience with TV tuner cards and video capture systems? Is it worth while to get something like an ATI All in Wonder, or is a separate TV tuner/capture card needed? What about HD space? How many GBs would we need for, say, 6 hours of good quality video? How many millions of dollars will this cost us?

Thanks!
Adcadet
 

jtr1962

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I've been thinking of doing something similar myself but instead running the TV output from the card to a regular TV and using the PC to store my shows. Problem is that TV resolution stinks and the flat screen HDTVs are still too pricey starting at about $5,000 for 40". Hopefully they'll have flat screen 27" within a few years for under $500. I'm not buying another bulky picture tube TV ever, whether it's HD or regular resolution. The ones you can hang on a wall like a picture are so much better. I'm not thrilled about watching TV on a 15" or 17" monitor, either, even though the resolution is better.

I can't offer any suggestions on tuner cards but you're going to need a lot of disk space if you're fairly prolific at taping shows. A 2-hour DVD movie takes 4 or so GB, so I'm guessing you'll get about a half hour per GB of disk space. Make sure you have software that lets you edit the recorded show so you can get rid of the commercials. Lately they've been averaging about 18 minutes worth for every hour of programming.

You don't need anything fancy in the hard disk department. 5400 RPM is plenty fast for this type of use, and quieter than 7200 RPM. Just go with the cheapest cost per GB. Occasionally CompUSA and BestBuy will have specials, such as the 100GB drive I picked for $99 after rebate six months ago. Probably you'll be able to get 200 GB for that price by spring.

It might be a good idea to have another large hard disk or a DVD-RW drive to make backups of your shows(if they're important to you). If not, and you lose them, chances are they'll be on again sometime. I don't think backing up TV shows is as critical as backing up other data, but that's just me.

I'm personally going to wait a bit for the cost per GB of drives to drop before I go this route. Once I do, I know I'll wish they had terabyte drives so I can put my whole videotape collection on my PC. I currently have something like 1500 hours on tape, and my father about the same. That's enough to fill a 6 TB drive. My reason for such a large collection is simple. There's very little worth watching on TV, even with cable, so when I find something I like, I keep it for those times I feel like relaxing and there's nothing on. Having everything on my PC would make the process so much more convenient. Even so, I still doubt I'd watch more that 5 hours of TV in an average week. It's really gotten that bad, especially on the networks, which I don't watch at all any more(except Star Trek:Enterprise on UPN).
 

jtr1962

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Adcadet said:
JTR -
why not just watch the shows on your computer monitor?

On a 15" monitor? I like to watch TV on my bed in case I fall asleep(which is likely with the quality of most of today's programming), and that's 6 feet from my computer, plus it's at a right angle to the screen. Both factors make for rather uncomfortable viewing, to say the least. The room would be a pain to rearrange, and I couldn't get the monitor much closer anyway without putting either my bed or computer desk away from the wall.

I might consider doing that once I get a larger monitor, at least until a decent sized HDTV becomes affordable. Or perhaps 27" monitors will become common in a few years. :)

I read in one of my electronics magazines that they made a demonstration 15" organic LED display only 1.4 mm thick. The era of affordable wall-hanging TVs might be upon us sooner than we think.
 

SteveC

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Adcadet said:
Does anybody have experience with TV tuner cards and video capture systems? Is it worth while to get something like an ATI All in Wonder, or is a separate TV tuner/capture card needed? What about HD space? How many GBs would we need for, say, 6 hours of good quality video? How many millions of dollars will this cost us?

Thanks!
Adcadet
I just replaced a generic BT8x8 card with an AIW, not for the difference in capture quality, but because I wanted to get rid of my crappy video card, and give my capture card to my parents. If you already have a decent video card, I would just get a cheap stereo BT8x8 based card, since there really isn't much difference between the two. Figure about 2GB/hr for 640x480 in good quality MPEG-2 video. One other thing is static shows up much more noticeably on computer monitors than on TV screens, which is something to keep in mind if you have bad cable connections.

Steve
 

CityK

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What about HD space?
The more the merrier.

How many GBs would we need for, say, 6 hours of good quality video?
Depends upon several variables, but most notibly at what resolution your capturing and what you define as a good quality picture - a purely subjective issue so there is no definitive answer. You can, however, get some idea of your storage needs by considering the following:

Not including audio (which btw doesn't account for very much), an uncompressed analog NTSC video signal (which we'll define for argument sake as being 720x480 - note: its not the true resolution but its close enough for purposes here) runs at ~20MBps = ~70GB per hr. Which, obviously, means that a 120GB drive would allow you ~1.75 hrs of record time.

However, no one in their right mind should use uncompressed considering that if you use a loseless (ie. no quality differnece from uncompressed stream) video codec like Huffyuv, the transfer rates are approximately cut in half ( say ~35GB per hr - actually, you can do even better with huffy, but we'll leave it at this). So the same 120GB HDD would give you close to around 3.5 hours. If the material you are recording is something you wish to archive, then you want to use a loseless codec. That way, you can doing all your editing (cut out commercials etc.), apply any filters you which to use, and save it without taking a generation loss in picture quality before you (if you want to for space reasons) render it to another format such as Divx, Xvid....

For things such as PVR, Tivo/Replay, DVCR or whatever you want to call this type of functionality, for shows your just going to watch once and then record over (and are not overly concerned about obtaining the best possible picture) then your looking at MPEG2 and perhaps even Divx or the like. For lousey (as in some picture information is discarded) codecs such as these, the storage requirements are going to depend upon the bit rates you set them to operate at....the higher the rate the larger the captured file, conversely, the lower the rate the more the picture is compressed and the smaller the resultant file. Resultant picture quality will depend a fair amount upon the chipset your capture card uses, better cards will give you a petty descent picture. With avg to higher quality Mpeg2 capture settings, your looking at around 5GB/hr. Divx considerably less (if you can find a SMP capture app those two cpu's of yours should be able to handle this without any problems)............so as you can see, something like a 120GB drive would give you many many hours of PVR capturing and storage capabilities.

Is it worth while to get something like an ATI All in Wonder, or is a separate TV tuner/capture card needed?
Many variables here too and your decision really depends upon what you like to do with your system and your budget. Seperate tuner/capture cards are nice in that they you can upgrade your video card more frequently than you might otherwise. AIW are very nice too and easy to use, and probably less likely to have any sort of strange compatibility problems with other hardware. I'm pretty sure that Mercutico has a Radeon 9700AIW, so he could probably answer any questions you have about that card and supporting software etc. In the mean time, questions you want to ask your self are: Are you a gamer? Do you upgrade that often? Do you want quality TV-out? etc etc

You'll have to do some homework on the potential cards that your looking at ie. what chipset does the card use, what's its application support like, what about driver support (vfw or WDM) etc etc....Actually, driver support is a big thing with capture cards (read the source of most aggrevation)... you can have the fanciest piece of hardware, but without good drivers it will be utterly useless. Drivers (vfw or WDM) will also determine which apps you will or won't be able to use succesfully.

One last thing is that the introduction of digital television is (very slowly) begining to change the landscape in tv-tuner world, so pending upon your ability to recieve terrestrial (over the air aerial reception) or satalite/cable reciever signals, your descion may differ....just something to think about.

I would advise you stay away from the BT878 based cards [1) newer and better quality stuff is available, 2) although a few have pretty good quality, with the majority of these cards the quality lacks]....however, that said, if you just want basic vcr record and watch once function, then one of these cheapies would probably fit the bill (plus there is a good 3rd party driver for it available......

How many millions of dollars will this cost us?
A lot less than what you probably think.
 

CityK

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I'm assuming your using windows btw....support in Linux would be tricker, but it exists (ATI AIW is a good bet for support in Linux) and is growing.

pc pvr software sucks
True, to a large extent, but it is getting better. But, tossing aside the flexibility of Tivo's, how hard is it to program your capture app each day/or once a week anyways?
 

Mercutio

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Some advice from someone who has a PC/home theater that needs 14 electrical outlets...

1. Tivo is generally cheaper. They're basically pretty cool, but It's super-easy to just add another hard drive to a PC, and as much as PC-based VR software sucks, that just can't be overlooked.

2. Reasonable VHS-like quality can be had at about 2.5Mbps in MPEG1, which is something like 1.2GB/hour, but your tastes may vary. Obviously, NTFS or ext2/3 lends itself to this application. When I'm being a hard-ass about recording something perfectly, it goes in at 6Mbps. For watching straight from the file, though, MPEG2 is superior. MPEG2 players seem better optimized for dealing with huge files (on a 2GHz machine it takes about 10 seconds to seek within a long MPEG1 using Media Player). It's much easier to edit MPEG1, though, so there's a real trade off.

3. ATI cards don't work with dscaler. You'd like a bt8x8 card for that. dscaler is a beautiful thing, but IMO, the native quality of the ATI cards makes it a tough race to call. The Rage Theater II chip (9700AIW) and dual tuners (record on one, watch on the other!) are what finally tip the scale. ATI's hardware DVD decoding is also very, very good and is something you want if you're wanting an "appliance". Too bad ATI hasn't done a standalone RTII tuner card... 'cause I still have a crisis of doubt every time I think about how much I paid for that card.

4. Your HTPC will be a wiring disaster area like nothing you've ever seen. Have someplace to hide the cables or get used to looking at them. You've been warned.

5. Lower-end AIW cards don't have dual display support. This, to put it mildly, sucks. TV out used for anything but watching DVDs or TV is just awful. Hope you have a decent PCI video card lined up for that second monitor.

6. ATI's scheduler software works well, but every once in awhile, the MMC software just won't start when it's supposed to, usually because media player or something crashed. So you have to check that it's able to run every now and again. PowerVCR and VirtualVCR also work, but all PC-based PVR apps have the common flaw of only being able to tune channels through the card's hardware tuner, which can be damn near useless depending on your video source (do you need a cable box?
)
 

honold

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Mercutio said:
1. Tivo is generally cheaper. They're basically pretty cool, but It's super-easy to just add another hard drive to a PC, and as much as PC-based VR software sucks, that just can't be overlooked.

uhhhhhhh

you can put 2 120gb drives in a tivo easily. my roommate got a 14hr tivo for beans, bough a lifetime subscription, and put 2 80gb drives in it a year or two ago - that was my inspiration to buy one when i moved somewhere else. i have an upgraded tivo series2.
 

Dozer

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Here's an interesting piece of software--sort of a media center, it allows you to organize your music, watch TV, record TV, DVDs, play CDs, etc. The interface looks similar to TiVo.

I pieced together a machine and connected it to my entertainment center, using ShowShifter to play audio files. Works quite well.
 

Mercutio

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Let us compare, for just a moment.

Tivo: Void warranty. Open case. Clone drive with prepared Linux box. Run Tivo-specific setup programs. Install drive. Pray you did it right and didn't just trash your Tivo.

PC: Open case. Install drive. Run disk setup utilities (fdisk, disk management, whatever). Add additonal IDE channels and/or external storage as you see fit.
 

honold

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Mercutio said:
Tivo: Void warranty. Open case. Clone drive with prepared Linux box. Run Tivo-specific setup programs. Install drive. Pray you did it right and didn't just trash your Tivo.

the tivo hardware warranty is only 3 months, and the installation is done via a bootable cdrom. the worst case scenario with the software install is that it takes you a while to get done.
 

adriel

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reliability: Capture cards, their capture software, supporting software, and the supporting hardware, taken as a capture system, can be more prone to failure than I would like. Hit the capture button...doesn't start capturing...bad news you've just missed a crucial section of the most crucial episode. Or something froze up during a timed capture while you were away. The mass market grade PC capture platforms are especially prone to failure.

TiVo sounds more reliable.
 

adriel

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You hate them, but as a backup consider programming or using a VCR for critical tv. The recorded vhs tape is very handy when something went wrong with the PC capture.
 

blakerwry

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Just thought I should mention I noticed the AIW 8500DV is running at $166 from mwave.com

I was thinking about purchasing it.

Merc, does this use the Rage theater II chip you like so much?
 

Mercutio

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Nope. The Rage Theater II comes with the 9700. It's the reason I bought a 9700. The Rage Theater chip in an 8500DV is identical to the chip found in the at-this-point ancient ATI Rage 128 All in Wonder (Also the Rage VIVO, Radeon VIVO, Radeon AIW, 7500AIW and 8500AIW).

3D Performance of the 8500DV is somewhere between the 7500 and the 8500 proper, in the same ballpark with the ATI 9000 (non-pro).
I'd suggest either buying the cheaper and just as nice 7500AIW (almost all the same features, except no digital tuner), or saving up for the big guy.
 
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