Outsourcing rejection
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Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Yup, that's her.
Salon is a great site. I don't visit as often as I should, partly because there are pretty much always stories related to my, uh, personal trauma.
The first time I read this, it was heartbreaking in a way. I've probably been through those interviews. I certainly didn't get a job from them.
It's infuriating to think that this is what business is like today, but honestly, for the SFers who aren't in stable job situations right now, when was the last time you even got the F7-letter?
Oh. Yeah. Yes, I have it memorized. It really is its own kind of profound.
Salon is a great site. I don't visit as often as I should, partly because there are pretty much always stories related to my, uh, personal trauma.
The first time I read this, it was heartbreaking in a way. I've probably been through those interviews. I certainly didn't get a job from them.
It's infuriating to think that this is what business is like today, but honestly, for the SFers who aren't in stable job situations right now, when was the last time you even got the F7-letter?
Oh. Yeah. Yes, I have it memorized. It really is its own kind of profound.
I received a token, "Don't call us, we'll call you," postcard once. The few places I actually had any form of person-to-person contact were pretty decent. They were just doing their best to deal with a flood of applicants for one or two positions. You're right though, the vast majority of places just never sent any acknowledgement whatsoever.
But there were a couple of companies that were just plain jerks during interviews. In one case I'm sure it was the VP exacting revenge for all those years during the dot-com explosion where he had cocky hotshots arriving in his office for an interview and starting off with things like, "I'm told I should ask for $80,000 to start."
Well, that's too damn bad for that VP. If he was dealing with accumulated issues by taking them out on prospective employees during the bust, there's no way I'd have worked there anyway. What really annoyed me though was that I'd spent the dot-com era working for a publicly funded university. During the hardest years, I worked 80 hour weeks on a regular basis (with no overtime - it was pure volunteer work after 35 hours). After 5 years of occasional advancement, my salary for the year I left was about $28,000. I effectively missed the whole dot-com boom.
If I try to look at it objectively, I have to say I'm grateful that I did. I'm sure it's made the mixture of unemployment and underemployment I've dealt with over the past 2 years easier to deal with than if I'd been making $80,000 sitting at a desk designing webpages. The most valuable work is often the hardest work. Sometimes the "most valuable work" means making a difference for 18,000 students who are depending on you to make things work right. Other times the "most valuable work" just means the job that allows you to buy some food and manage to pay rent that month. I consider myself fortunate to have never been through a period where that wasn't made abundantly clear to me.
I'm still underemployed. My technical skills are steadily rusting away in most areas (as my more and more simplistic requests for help here illustrate), but I could bring them back up to speed if I had the opportunity. It seems unlikely though. And my BA in geography has never really been put to use. It probably never will be, I guess. It seems like someone else's life now, but ten years ago, I started off at university in astrophysics. I often wonder what would have happened if I'd stayed in that field.
I was out of work from January 2002 - November 2002. My unemployment ended a few days after I got the heck out of North Carolina ("The Great Depression State") and came up here to Virginia. I arrived at the very end of November with virtually no savings left. I took a "seasonal" job at a department store's call center over Christmas. They liked me, so I was given the priviledge of staying on. I was grateful for that. Eventually though I found something slightly more challenging elsewhere - as an intern. Truthfully even it proved to be stuff I could have done way back when I was in high school, but the work was NOT customer service. Woohoo! A few of the people who'd had secure jobs at the company all through the dot-com era and up until the present tried to stifle laughter when they found out I was 28 years old and interning. I did my best to brush it off. I should have pointed them to that CBSnews.com series from a couple of months earlier that told the stories of a whole slew of individuals and families who were in much worse shape than I. I wonder if the employees would have laughed at them too.
Now 8 months later after starting the internship (i.e. just a couple of weeks ago), a job opened up at the company and I was transferred to full time status. Yay!
The only drawbacks are that I'm still very much underemployed (I am capable of SO much more than this position requires), and the hours are still 4am - 11:30am, Wednesday through Sunday. Those hours are slowly killing me. Physically and socially. Case in point, I've lived in this city for a year now and I don't know anyone. Furthermore, with 3 exceptions I haven't had a lengthy, personal conversation with anyone in 3 years. You think you don't meet people easily Mercutio? I can't say I find it as hard as you do, but I can surely empathize.
If I had a personal anthem for 2003, it'd be "Entry of the Gladiators." Don't know it? I'm sure you do, if perhaps not the name. Search for it on Google.
I mostly gave up looking for other jobs months ago. When I do send out an application, I put a huge amount of effort into it - and, as you say Mercutio, don't even get an acknowledgement that they received my application. It's long been at the point that I send my applications out by Fedex. That way I can see a signature at the Fedex tracking site. At least that way I know a real, live human being - at least for a moment - actually held my application. Before throwing it in the trash or smoking it, or whatever they do with them.
I'm going to be so dead tired in the morning. I'm supposed to be asleep by 7:15 in the evening at the absolute latest. I have to get up at 3:15am every day. Maybe it's going to be easier if I just stay up for the next 2 hours. I can always reload Slashdot over and over again...
But there were a couple of companies that were just plain jerks during interviews. In one case I'm sure it was the VP exacting revenge for all those years during the dot-com explosion where he had cocky hotshots arriving in his office for an interview and starting off with things like, "I'm told I should ask for $80,000 to start."
Well, that's too damn bad for that VP. If he was dealing with accumulated issues by taking them out on prospective employees during the bust, there's no way I'd have worked there anyway. What really annoyed me though was that I'd spent the dot-com era working for a publicly funded university. During the hardest years, I worked 80 hour weeks on a regular basis (with no overtime - it was pure volunteer work after 35 hours). After 5 years of occasional advancement, my salary for the year I left was about $28,000. I effectively missed the whole dot-com boom.
If I try to look at it objectively, I have to say I'm grateful that I did. I'm sure it's made the mixture of unemployment and underemployment I've dealt with over the past 2 years easier to deal with than if I'd been making $80,000 sitting at a desk designing webpages. The most valuable work is often the hardest work. Sometimes the "most valuable work" means making a difference for 18,000 students who are depending on you to make things work right. Other times the "most valuable work" just means the job that allows you to buy some food and manage to pay rent that month. I consider myself fortunate to have never been through a period where that wasn't made abundantly clear to me.
I'm still underemployed. My technical skills are steadily rusting away in most areas (as my more and more simplistic requests for help here illustrate), but I could bring them back up to speed if I had the opportunity. It seems unlikely though. And my BA in geography has never really been put to use. It probably never will be, I guess. It seems like someone else's life now, but ten years ago, I started off at university in astrophysics. I often wonder what would have happened if I'd stayed in that field.
I was out of work from January 2002 - November 2002. My unemployment ended a few days after I got the heck out of North Carolina ("The Great Depression State") and came up here to Virginia. I arrived at the very end of November with virtually no savings left. I took a "seasonal" job at a department store's call center over Christmas. They liked me, so I was given the priviledge of staying on. I was grateful for that. Eventually though I found something slightly more challenging elsewhere - as an intern. Truthfully even it proved to be stuff I could have done way back when I was in high school, but the work was NOT customer service. Woohoo! A few of the people who'd had secure jobs at the company all through the dot-com era and up until the present tried to stifle laughter when they found out I was 28 years old and interning. I did my best to brush it off. I should have pointed them to that CBSnews.com series from a couple of months earlier that told the stories of a whole slew of individuals and families who were in much worse shape than I. I wonder if the employees would have laughed at them too.
Now 8 months later after starting the internship (i.e. just a couple of weeks ago), a job opened up at the company and I was transferred to full time status. Yay!
The only drawbacks are that I'm still very much underemployed (I am capable of SO much more than this position requires), and the hours are still 4am - 11:30am, Wednesday through Sunday. Those hours are slowly killing me. Physically and socially. Case in point, I've lived in this city for a year now and I don't know anyone. Furthermore, with 3 exceptions I haven't had a lengthy, personal conversation with anyone in 3 years. You think you don't meet people easily Mercutio? I can't say I find it as hard as you do, but I can surely empathize.
If I had a personal anthem for 2003, it'd be "Entry of the Gladiators." Don't know it? I'm sure you do, if perhaps not the name. Search for it on Google.
I mostly gave up looking for other jobs months ago. When I do send out an application, I put a huge amount of effort into it - and, as you say Mercutio, don't even get an acknowledgement that they received my application. It's long been at the point that I send my applications out by Fedex. That way I can see a signature at the Fedex tracking site. At least that way I know a real, live human being - at least for a moment - actually held my application. Before throwing it in the trash or smoking it, or whatever they do with them.
I'm going to be so dead tired in the morning. I'm supposed to be asleep by 7:15 in the evening at the absolute latest. I have to get up at 3:15am every day. Maybe it's going to be easier if I just stay up for the next 2 hours. I can always reload Slashdot over and over again...
CougTek
Hairy Aussie
I also sympathize with you i. I've been trough something similar, although I'm one of those who earned big and dropped out to little more than peanuts. I'm about to return to my past (wealthy) salary level, but it's been one very rough ride these past two years and a half.
The only thing I can tell you is good luck. If my company ever lift off, I'll send you an employment offer (don't expect it for Christmas).
The only thing I can tell you is good luck. If my company ever lift off, I'll send you an employment offer (don't expect it for Christmas).
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
I completely understand what you're going through, i. In fact, I've never really had a job which I enjoyed or wasn't underemployed.
When I graduated college in 1985 I sent out over 100 resumes and didn't get a single interview. Maybe two dozen companies sent me back form letters. There just weren't any electrical engineering jobs in NYC, and I was unable and unwilling to relocate as most high-tech places were in the boondocks where I would hate living with a passion. This went on for two years, and finally with my student loan in default the point came where I had to take any job I could find. I took a job taking inventory at $5.50 per hour. Horrible job-no benefits, no sick days, no vacation, a few of the employees were ex-cons. I did this job for eight months, and was going to pack it in as I couldn't stand the boredom any more. One day I saw an ad while I was reading the paper for a bench technician at a taximeter shop. I went there after work for an interview, even though I wasn't dressed for it. I had to take an IQ/aptitude test before the interview. I had the highest score the manager had seen, and he was in general impressed with me. He called back a few days later to tell me the job was mine if I wanted it, and the pay was starting at $7/hour.
I took the job because the pay and working conditions were paradise compared to my last job. After about a year I was making $10.76/hour. With the usual 10+ hours of O/T this wasn't bad money back in 1988. Eight months after I got the raise I learned the company was closing its NYC office. I was offered a job in Virginia, my manager one in New Jersey. The other five people were to be let go. The thought of living in a suburb made me violently ill, and I was getting tired of the job anyhow, so I decided to collect unemployment. My boss bought the company's NYC office to try to run it as his personal business.
Fast forward to now. I've been freelancing for my ex-boss for twelve years. I don't make much as he doesn't have much for me usually, but per hour of my time I actually see $25 to $50. This year was actually good compared to other years and I'll end up making about $8,000. Not much, but then I'm hardly working and have time to pursue other potential means of making money. I could never, ever work as an employee again unless it was at $100K or more. I figured once that with a $35,000 per year job after I account for taxes, carfare, and travel time I actually take home about $8.50 for every hour of my time. These days $35,000 jobs are fairly hard to get, so the picture is even worse with typical $20,000 to $30,000 jobs. Low pay might not bother me if I truly enjoyed what I was doing, but service sector jobs are mind-numbingly boring. Interesting jobs in R&D just don't seem to exist, especially in big cities like New York. I really wish you luck in the future, but with the outsourcing of jobs and downsizing I think freelancing combined with long periods of unemployment/underemployment are going to be the norm from now on.
When I graduated college in 1985 I sent out over 100 resumes and didn't get a single interview. Maybe two dozen companies sent me back form letters. There just weren't any electrical engineering jobs in NYC, and I was unable and unwilling to relocate as most high-tech places were in the boondocks where I would hate living with a passion. This went on for two years, and finally with my student loan in default the point came where I had to take any job I could find. I took a job taking inventory at $5.50 per hour. Horrible job-no benefits, no sick days, no vacation, a few of the employees were ex-cons. I did this job for eight months, and was going to pack it in as I couldn't stand the boredom any more. One day I saw an ad while I was reading the paper for a bench technician at a taximeter shop. I went there after work for an interview, even though I wasn't dressed for it. I had to take an IQ/aptitude test before the interview. I had the highest score the manager had seen, and he was in general impressed with me. He called back a few days later to tell me the job was mine if I wanted it, and the pay was starting at $7/hour.
I took the job because the pay and working conditions were paradise compared to my last job. After about a year I was making $10.76/hour. With the usual 10+ hours of O/T this wasn't bad money back in 1988. Eight months after I got the raise I learned the company was closing its NYC office. I was offered a job in Virginia, my manager one in New Jersey. The other five people were to be let go. The thought of living in a suburb made me violently ill, and I was getting tired of the job anyhow, so I decided to collect unemployment. My boss bought the company's NYC office to try to run it as his personal business.
Fast forward to now. I've been freelancing for my ex-boss for twelve years. I don't make much as he doesn't have much for me usually, but per hour of my time I actually see $25 to $50. This year was actually good compared to other years and I'll end up making about $8,000. Not much, but then I'm hardly working and have time to pursue other potential means of making money. I could never, ever work as an employee again unless it was at $100K or more. I figured once that with a $35,000 per year job after I account for taxes, carfare, and travel time I actually take home about $8.50 for every hour of my time. These days $35,000 jobs are fairly hard to get, so the picture is even worse with typical $20,000 to $30,000 jobs. Low pay might not bother me if I truly enjoyed what I was doing, but service sector jobs are mind-numbingly boring. Interesting jobs in R&D just don't seem to exist, especially in big cities like New York. I really wish you luck in the future, but with the outsourcing of jobs and downsizing I think freelancing combined with long periods of unemployment/underemployment are going to be the norm from now on.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Some of you guys know this and some of you don't, but I tried for years and years (five of them, in fact) to get a professional, corporate-type job. If you can imagine going to interview after interview, taking call after call from recruiters for temp work, and not getting anything - during the whole .com boom, that's what I went through.
By my own count, over that period I sent out about 10,000 resumes. Most with at least a custom-tailored cover letter.
I heard "You're overqualified for this" a lot, when I heard anything at all, or "You don't have the right experience." for everything I wasn't overqualified for. 95% of the time, I got no responses at all. I had some really awful, sometimes even humiliating experiences with the whole process.
Every once in awhile I'd get a decent temp job for my efforts. Six months here, 4 months there. Something where I was paid outrageously for my skills. Enough to make all the BS I put up with trying to land the next job worthwhile.
2001 was worst year. The calls dried up. The bubble burst, and corporate tech jobs just weren't out there.
Through it all, I picked up a number of small-business customers. One I did some contract programming for in the mid-90s. Others I picked up with a posting at my barber shop. A few more called ME out of the blue. Eventually I got some friend-of-a-friend jobs outside my community. Doctors and lawyers and an Investment firm.
The little jobs were peanuts compared to what I made every time I found a big business to pay for my time. But it added up, and for all the times I needed to have a way to make money, I did.
Look back far enough on this site, and the story of how I got my "day job" as an IT trainer is available. I keep up my small business clients, drive around a lot, and basically serve as the IT department for a dozen businesses, and between the two, I make a living that's actually pretty good. Maybe even a little better than if I had taken one of those corporate jobs I wanted.
By my own count, over that period I sent out about 10,000 resumes. Most with at least a custom-tailored cover letter.
I heard "You're overqualified for this" a lot, when I heard anything at all, or "You don't have the right experience." for everything I wasn't overqualified for. 95% of the time, I got no responses at all. I had some really awful, sometimes even humiliating experiences with the whole process.
Every once in awhile I'd get a decent temp job for my efforts. Six months here, 4 months there. Something where I was paid outrageously for my skills. Enough to make all the BS I put up with trying to land the next job worthwhile.
2001 was worst year. The calls dried up. The bubble burst, and corporate tech jobs just weren't out there.
Through it all, I picked up a number of small-business customers. One I did some contract programming for in the mid-90s. Others I picked up with a posting at my barber shop. A few more called ME out of the blue. Eventually I got some friend-of-a-friend jobs outside my community. Doctors and lawyers and an Investment firm.
The little jobs were peanuts compared to what I made every time I found a big business to pay for my time. But it added up, and for all the times I needed to have a way to make money, I did.
Look back far enough on this site, and the story of how I got my "day job" as an IT trainer is available. I keep up my small business clients, drive around a lot, and basically serve as the IT department for a dozen businesses, and between the two, I make a living that's actually pretty good. Maybe even a little better than if I had taken one of those corporate jobs I wanted.
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
Job histories, eh?
Started 'consulting' in Fall '87 for $8/hour, no benefits. Really just a contract software tester. That lasted a few months until the consulting company's clinet pushed us out because my boss, who was also contracted to the company, wasn't doing what he was supposed to. They had to lay me off as there were no other clients.
About three weeks after that, in May '88, I landed a job as a Lead Operator for a non-profit in Indy. $7.35 an hour, 35 hour work week, benefits. I usually had some OT an average closer to 45 hours a week. Got promoted to Ops Specialist so I had not only the site I was Lead for but the other site downstate, and moved to salaried so I lost the OT money. Had the ?pleasure? of reviewing resumes and making hiring recommendations as well as firing recommendations a couple of times. Had a Lead Operator quit on me on Christmas Eve, causing me to do a double shift.
At some point I moved to northwest Indiana as my wife had gotten a teaching job in the area. The non-profit couldn't keep me employed but still wanted my services so I contracted with them for a while.
That lasted until late '91 when that work was drying up and I found a job with a candy manufacturer. This was my first exposure to AS/400s. Interesting job, but some of the MIS staff just had no management capability. When the VP started humming, you knew he was no longer paying attention to you, even if he did maintain eye contact.
Towards the end, my supervisor, who has been hired in over me, was proving himself to be a clueless idiot. He also chose to bring in (buddy) consultants and follow their recommendations vs. mine (who knew the existing infrastructure well). And switch from top-tier PC brands to clones and Best Buy specials with basically no service/warranty. Anyway, I was fed up and started looking.
I found a financial services company that needed an AS/400 person as they sold software that ran on the machine. Travel was part of it but I was divorced by then so that was fine. Stayed there 11 months until it was evident that the sales VP was booking revenue too soon and paying the sales staff commissions before the company received payment from the clients. In fact, the clients, thanks to the company's lovely accounting, often weren't even properly billed. They actually found several million in outstanding receivables that had never actually been billed.
Luckily, I found a new job and left for greener pastures. Theoretically, at least. Large corporation, lots of AS/400s, lots of money to spend. All was good until the corporate accounting fiasco which caused them to re-state earnings down something like $2.5 billion. The $10 billion corporation wound up selling itself out to a company 1/4 their size. You might recognize the name. There's a decent chance it's painted on a dumpster near you. :wink:
So with the buyout, we were laid off and transitioned to an outsourcing company. We all knew that we would only be employed for a short while so many, like me, looked for something else. Four months later, I found my current employer.
I will have been there 5 years in a couple of weeks. They've had some rocky times like everyone else but are surviving.
Corporate-type jobs aren't always a good thing. I've had to change jobs a couple of time because upper management wasn't managing. Still, by staying with decent-sized firms, I've never taken a pay cut and have generally gotten better-than-COLA raises.
Started 'consulting' in Fall '87 for $8/hour, no benefits. Really just a contract software tester. That lasted a few months until the consulting company's clinet pushed us out because my boss, who was also contracted to the company, wasn't doing what he was supposed to. They had to lay me off as there were no other clients.
About three weeks after that, in May '88, I landed a job as a Lead Operator for a non-profit in Indy. $7.35 an hour, 35 hour work week, benefits. I usually had some OT an average closer to 45 hours a week. Got promoted to Ops Specialist so I had not only the site I was Lead for but the other site downstate, and moved to salaried so I lost the OT money. Had the ?pleasure? of reviewing resumes and making hiring recommendations as well as firing recommendations a couple of times. Had a Lead Operator quit on me on Christmas Eve, causing me to do a double shift.
At some point I moved to northwest Indiana as my wife had gotten a teaching job in the area. The non-profit couldn't keep me employed but still wanted my services so I contracted with them for a while.
That lasted until late '91 when that work was drying up and I found a job with a candy manufacturer. This was my first exposure to AS/400s. Interesting job, but some of the MIS staff just had no management capability. When the VP started humming, you knew he was no longer paying attention to you, even if he did maintain eye contact.
Towards the end, my supervisor, who has been hired in over me, was proving himself to be a clueless idiot. He also chose to bring in (buddy) consultants and follow their recommendations vs. mine (who knew the existing infrastructure well). And switch from top-tier PC brands to clones and Best Buy specials with basically no service/warranty. Anyway, I was fed up and started looking.
I found a financial services company that needed an AS/400 person as they sold software that ran on the machine. Travel was part of it but I was divorced by then so that was fine. Stayed there 11 months until it was evident that the sales VP was booking revenue too soon and paying the sales staff commissions before the company received payment from the clients. In fact, the clients, thanks to the company's lovely accounting, often weren't even properly billed. They actually found several million in outstanding receivables that had never actually been billed.
Luckily, I found a new job and left for greener pastures. Theoretically, at least. Large corporation, lots of AS/400s, lots of money to spend. All was good until the corporate accounting fiasco which caused them to re-state earnings down something like $2.5 billion. The $10 billion corporation wound up selling itself out to a company 1/4 their size. You might recognize the name. There's a decent chance it's painted on a dumpster near you. :wink:
So with the buyout, we were laid off and transitioned to an outsourcing company. We all knew that we would only be employed for a short while so many, like me, looked for something else. Four months later, I found my current employer.
I will have been there 5 years in a couple of weeks. They've had some rocky times like everyone else but are surviving.
Corporate-type jobs aren't always a good thing. I've had to change jobs a couple of time because upper management wasn't managing. Still, by staying with decent-sized firms, I've never taken a pay cut and have generally gotten better-than-COLA raises.
Howell
Storage? I am Storage!
On December 12 I will be leaving my current work site. Luckily, I have found another 6-9 month contract 4 blocks away. They wanted to hire me to work for the engineering (not IT) department at the current (for now) but there is no money.
I had an FT job interview recently that I think went well. But there were more interviews after me so who knows. The ironic thing is that two or three months ago I had submitted a resume and cover letter for this exact same job and received no response.
i, have you considered combining your computer interests and geography interests and looking for a job working with GIS software? Maybe sales or support.
I had an FT job interview recently that I think went well. But there were more interviews after me so who knows. The ironic thing is that two or three months ago I had submitted a resume and cover letter for this exact same job and received no response.
i, have you considered combining your computer interests and geography interests and looking for a job working with GIS software? Maybe sales or support.
mubs
Storage? I am Storage!
I am amazed that so many of us share so many similarities WRT our careers. When a person like Merc can't get hired, you know something is terribly wrong with corporate America.
My own career has been extremely rocky. Not of my own making. I do all the due diligence one can, everything looks great, then in a few months, they go downhill and then belly-up. Sometimes I think I'm jinxed and am bad for my employer; that's how consistent this problem has been. For the most part though, what I have seen is what Fushigi said: management screwing up and running the business into the ground.
During the mad dot-com boom, I was working my ass off, making significant things happen for my employer, making a pittance despite my track-record, experience and knowledge. I tried to find a better job, but couldn’t.
I'm a member of several job-networking groups on Yahoo, and see that the pain is spread deep and wide. There are guys who are far more qualified and accomplished than I am, who have been unemployed for 2+ years. One of them reported that he did an analysis of the stock market with 100 years data; an extensive statistical analysis and he believes it will be 10-25 years before we see good times again. He says in the meantime, there is going to be severe global recession/depression. He’s taken a low paying job in retail (after making $150-250k at places like Motorola) because he believes that is the one sector that will pull through. I certainly don’t share his pessimism, but it is true that the structure of the U.S. economy has changed significantly in the last 10 years.
My career has now reached a very critical point; an "inflection-point" as Andy Grove would put it. After 20+ years in IT, I may end up getting completely out of IT. Not out of choice, but out of necessity.
In my embattled and battle-scarred state, I’m groping for answers to fundamental questions of life. It’s neither easy nor pretty.
To i, my advice would be that well-worn cliché – find what you like to do and focus on it. In the long haul, you’ll be better off for it.
My own career has been extremely rocky. Not of my own making. I do all the due diligence one can, everything looks great, then in a few months, they go downhill and then belly-up. Sometimes I think I'm jinxed and am bad for my employer; that's how consistent this problem has been. For the most part though, what I have seen is what Fushigi said: management screwing up and running the business into the ground.
During the mad dot-com boom, I was working my ass off, making significant things happen for my employer, making a pittance despite my track-record, experience and knowledge. I tried to find a better job, but couldn’t.
I'm a member of several job-networking groups on Yahoo, and see that the pain is spread deep and wide. There are guys who are far more qualified and accomplished than I am, who have been unemployed for 2+ years. One of them reported that he did an analysis of the stock market with 100 years data; an extensive statistical analysis and he believes it will be 10-25 years before we see good times again. He says in the meantime, there is going to be severe global recession/depression. He’s taken a low paying job in retail (after making $150-250k at places like Motorola) because he believes that is the one sector that will pull through. I certainly don’t share his pessimism, but it is true that the structure of the U.S. economy has changed significantly in the last 10 years.
My career has now reached a very critical point; an "inflection-point" as Andy Grove would put it. After 20+ years in IT, I may end up getting completely out of IT. Not out of choice, but out of necessity.
In my embattled and battle-scarred state, I’m groping for answers to fundamental questions of life. It’s neither easy nor pretty.
To i, my advice would be that well-worn cliché – find what you like to do and focus on it. In the long haul, you’ll be better off for it.
I strongly urge everybody here to read the full article at FastCompany. While the article analyses the sociological factors of the dot-com/Enron fiascos, there are some important messages for all of us in there.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
To be honest mubs, I probably don't strike most white collar types as corporate material.
There are "guys like Merc"... and mubs, and i and Howell who struggle constantly with employment. Ours is not an easy path.
We contract and we temp and we never get to know the people around us or the routines of business. It's a trap to even bother to introduce yourself (easier for somone like me, or for you perhaps), since our time is worth so much; too much socializing and we're not productive. Not enough and we're "that creepy guy", just right and, "That's where I met the greatest bunch of people. Too bad I don't work there any more.".
We make a good living then go two months with no living at all.
We deal with people whose skill with computers are enough to make us wonder if they know how to dress themselves.
And if we're still doing it, despite everything that's happened in the last three years, the only thing I can think is that we must love it.
As far as corporate management goes, all I can say is, we've known for years that pretty much everyone is getting screwed. I've started to think that the American dream isn't to own a home with a white-picket fence, with a new car in the garage and 2.3 children. I think the American dream is to be one of the people who get's to do the screwing.
I don't want to get political about that right now.
I've been where you are mubs. I don't have any advice, but it kills me every time I send a student out in the world, and every time I hear about a good IT person who is going without.
There are "guys like Merc"... and mubs, and i and Howell who struggle constantly with employment. Ours is not an easy path.
We contract and we temp and we never get to know the people around us or the routines of business. It's a trap to even bother to introduce yourself (easier for somone like me, or for you perhaps), since our time is worth so much; too much socializing and we're not productive. Not enough and we're "that creepy guy", just right and, "That's where I met the greatest bunch of people. Too bad I don't work there any more.".
We make a good living then go two months with no living at all.
We deal with people whose skill with computers are enough to make us wonder if they know how to dress themselves.
And if we're still doing it, despite everything that's happened in the last three years, the only thing I can think is that we must love it.
As far as corporate management goes, all I can say is, we've known for years that pretty much everyone is getting screwed. I've started to think that the American dream isn't to own a home with a white-picket fence, with a new car in the garage and 2.3 children. I think the American dream is to be one of the people who get's to do the screwing.
I don't want to get political about that right now.
I've been where you are mubs. I don't have any advice, but it kills me every time I send a student out in the world, and every time I hear about a good IT person who is going without.
Tannin
Storage? I am Storage!
The longer term big picture is not good for the USA. For half a century or more, Uncle Sam has ruthlessly expanded, buying up land, resources, marketing networks and most of all jobs from other, smaller and poorer countries.
American workers were highly skilled and highly paid, and American companies always needed more of them. This was tough luck if your home country was Malaysia or Australia or Nigeria or anywhere else outside Europe - not only were you lucky to have a job, but it was not well paid and the company you worked for was either American-owned or (sooner or later) sold out to American interests, and the same could be said of the country you were born in.
Eventually, the United States became the richest and most powerful country on the globe, and American companies became truly multi-national. They were tired of being told that they served US interests first and foremost, and though they had denied that all these years, now they really did divorce themselves from the hopes and needs of the US worker and the US customer. No longer did they operate in foreign countries but repratriate the profits to the USA, making that country rich and all others poor.
No, now the major companies operate in a whole new environment, and they pay homage to no country, not even the USA. Now they park the profits wherever it is cheapest so they can avoid as much as possible of their fiscal responsibility to the nations that produce their goods and buy their profits.
No longer are the best jobs reserved for American citizens. No, now the jobs go wherever labour is the cheapest, bribery most cost-effective, and laws to safeguard worker and consumer safety least enforced: India, China, Mexico, and so on.
Don't hold your breath, guys.
Welcome to the Third World.
American workers were highly skilled and highly paid, and American companies always needed more of them. This was tough luck if your home country was Malaysia or Australia or Nigeria or anywhere else outside Europe - not only were you lucky to have a job, but it was not well paid and the company you worked for was either American-owned or (sooner or later) sold out to American interests, and the same could be said of the country you were born in.
Eventually, the United States became the richest and most powerful country on the globe, and American companies became truly multi-national. They were tired of being told that they served US interests first and foremost, and though they had denied that all these years, now they really did divorce themselves from the hopes and needs of the US worker and the US customer. No longer did they operate in foreign countries but repratriate the profits to the USA, making that country rich and all others poor.
No, now the major companies operate in a whole new environment, and they pay homage to no country, not even the USA. Now they park the profits wherever it is cheapest so they can avoid as much as possible of their fiscal responsibility to the nations that produce their goods and buy their profits.
No longer are the best jobs reserved for American citizens. No, now the jobs go wherever labour is the cheapest, bribery most cost-effective, and laws to safeguard worker and consumer safety least enforced: India, China, Mexico, and so on.
Don't hold your breath, guys.
Welcome to the Third World.
CougTek
Hairy Aussie
In short, what Tony described is the definition of Neo-Liberalism. A kind of Jungle-Law, but applied to the economy.
BTW, most of you Americans complaining against the bloody Liberals are suporting the Republicans who are themselves even more devoted to the application of neo-liberal politics than the supposedly pro-liberal Democrats.
BTW, most of you Americans complaining against the bloody Liberals are suporting the Republicans who are themselves even more devoted to the application of neo-liberal politics than the supposedly pro-liberal Democrats.
mubs
Storage? I am Storage!
Just you wait till the elections, Coug. The pain is deep and wide throughout America. I'll bet that Mr. Bush will be a one-trick pony like his dad.CougTek said:
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
I've already given a bunch of money to Clark and to Dean, but unfortunately, I think the blank "war" check we let Mr. Bush write two years ago will keep him in office.
(Besides, I live in the state that gave the world "Senator Quayle")
The outrageous thing is that our economy - measured at the business level - is supposedly growing again. But there aren't any signs of increase in real wage or job creation (something we need very badly right now). Disgusting.
(Besides, I live in the state that gave the world "Senator Quayle")
The outrageous thing is that our economy - measured at the business level - is supposedly growing again. But there aren't any signs of increase in real wage or job creation (something we need very badly right now). Disgusting.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
The truth is neither party really knows what they're doing as far as running the country or creating jobs. Democrats will bring the economy under with taxes, handouts which discourage working, and too many regulations. Republicans will bring it under with deficit spending, too little regulation, and cutting taxes on the wrong people. Neither side has a clue about R&D to develop new technologies that will create decent jobs. Neither has the courage to take on the AARP with their greedy baby boomers who will get every morsel they can off the backs of the younger workers. Neither will take on the CEOs whose bonuses are stupidly tied to profit, and who can therefore get rich firing workers and otherwise running a company into the ground. Neither will take on the automakers, airlines, or oil companies who are mortgaging the planet's future by destroying the environment.
I tend to agree that it will be a long time, if ever, before we see good times again. The lack of enlightened leadership both in the public and private sectors is the reason why. Nobody thinks long-term any more.
I tend to agree that it will be a long time, if ever, before we see good times again. The lack of enlightened leadership both in the public and private sectors is the reason why. Nobody thinks long-term any more.
Thanks for all the comments/advice/offers earlier ... I would have posted sooner with specific replies, but I'm dead tired. The problem with trying to find meaning in your life is that work offers a cheap quick-fix...and the next thing you know, you're there for 14 hours a day.
This stunned me at work today:
Slashdot posted this story a few days ago.
Within that story, the link to the news article in turn has a link back to the student's webpage.
Load that URL for the student's webpage and study the photograph for a minute. I mean really study it.
Now load today's front page PDF for Al Hayat (an International newspaper published for Arab speakers/readers). Note: that link takes you direct to the PDF so Acrobat will spring to life.
Ok?
Scroll to the bottom of the PDF. See how they have a story about Ms. Oxenhielm? No, I can't read Arabic either, but it's the PICTURE I'm talking about.
Play "spot the difference" between the photograph Ms. Oxenhielm made the conscious decision to display to the world on her website - the picture she wanted everyone to see when they asked, "who's Elin Oxenhielm" - and the one that Al Hayat used on their front page.
I can't believe they did that. I mean, it's kind of confusing me. Is this a laughably trivial thing to edit ... or not? It's just absurd.
This stunned me at work today:
Slashdot posted this story a few days ago.
Within that story, the link to the news article in turn has a link back to the student's webpage.
Load that URL for the student's webpage and study the photograph for a minute. I mean really study it.
Now load today's front page PDF for Al Hayat (an International newspaper published for Arab speakers/readers). Note: that link takes you direct to the PDF so Acrobat will spring to life.
Ok?
Scroll to the bottom of the PDF. See how they have a story about Ms. Oxenhielm? No, I can't read Arabic either, but it's the PICTURE I'm talking about.
Play "spot the difference" between the photograph Ms. Oxenhielm made the conscious decision to display to the world on her website - the picture she wanted everyone to see when they asked, "who's Elin Oxenhielm" - and the one that Al Hayat used on their front page.
I can't believe they did that. I mean, it's kind of confusing me. Is this a laughably trivial thing to edit ... or not? It's just absurd.
*sigh*
I just ate a whole large pizza. Looks like I'll be up for a while, so...
Thanks Coug. If I suddenly become rich at some point in the future I'll make an investment in your company. Either way, I hope it works out for you. I had considered starting a company at one point, but aside from a little research, I never went anywhere with it.
Sorry to hear you've been through the same sort of stuff jtr. I hope things don't work out the way you fear ... I'm still optimistic that things will improve employment-wise. Oh sure, I doubt they'll be like they were during the dot-com era for at least another 70 years or so (i.e. until people have forgotten the lessons learned during this one) ... but I really don't believe they can stay this bad forever.
Mercutio, I hadn't realized you'd been through all that insanity in the job market. I'm really kind of stunned (I mean in a, how the heck does that happen, kind of way).
Ahh Fushigi ... someone with some optimism. I think. Maybe?
mubs, you brought to a close really the direction everyone left me headed: "find what you like to do and focus on it. In the long haul, you’ll be better off for it." I have a close friend (months away from completing 8 years of schooling and becoming a doctor) who says almost the exact same thing.
The problem is that I don't know what I want. Or more precisely, I don't feel passionate about anything anymore.
I used to have things I was really passionate about, but it's funny ... having spent several years at university, everything just sort of started to lose its lustre.
That and I'm such an oddball. Even the personality tests I take leave me in weirdo-world. I love technology, but I'm nowhere near as good at learning through "normal" methods it as others are. Then again, given time to learn hands on and it's a totally different story. Plus, I'm insanely dedicated. Case in point ... I spent just over 13 hours solid at work today. (i.e. no break, not even for food ... restroom maybe once). It's not intentional - I just wind up with a personal goal in mind and I'll pay pretty much any price to achieve it. But then, personal goals are a strange thing with me. I can't just set them on a whim like others seem to. I can't just say, "ok, this is something I'm going to do." It has to have immediate value to myself, or better, meaning or value of any time-frame for others. Otherwise my perspective is there isn't any point in setting the goal.
One thing I have learned this year is that goals or tasks have to have a genuine, well-defined point for me to be able to put 100% effort into them.
Wow, I'm really tired, and really rambling.
One thought came to my mind yesterday when I was trying to respond to this thread the first time:
He who charts no course, charts a course for mediocrity.
That just came to my mind ... sounds cliched enough that someone else famous has probably already said it. But whatever ... it nicely summarized one of the things that worries me about my life these days. I'm completely adrift.
I just ate a whole large pizza. Looks like I'll be up for a while, so...
Cougtek said:
Thanks Coug. If I suddenly become rich at some point in the future I'll make an investment in your company. Either way, I hope it works out for you. I had considered starting a company at one point, but aside from a little research, I never went anywhere with it.
Sorry to hear you've been through the same sort of stuff jtr. I hope things don't work out the way you fear ... I'm still optimistic that things will improve employment-wise. Oh sure, I doubt they'll be like they were during the dot-com era for at least another 70 years or so (i.e. until people have forgotten the lessons learned during this one) ... but I really don't believe they can stay this bad forever.
Mercutio, I hadn't realized you'd been through all that insanity in the job market. I'm really kind of stunned (I mean in a, how the heck does that happen, kind of way).
Ahh Fushigi ... someone with some optimism. I think. Maybe?
(Glad to hear you have some measure of certainty for the short-term at least.) As for me, yes I'd considered geography-related work. The same sort of thing happened though when I sent resumes to geography-oriented companies ... I'd hear nothing at all (or maybe a "don't call us, we'll call" you message).Howell said:
mubs, you brought to a close really the direction everyone left me headed: "find what you like to do and focus on it. In the long haul, you’ll be better off for it." I have a close friend (months away from completing 8 years of schooling and becoming a doctor) who says almost the exact same thing.
The problem is that I don't know what I want. Or more precisely, I don't feel passionate about anything anymore.
I used to have things I was really passionate about, but it's funny ... having spent several years at university, everything just sort of started to lose its lustre.
That and I'm such an oddball. Even the personality tests I take leave me in weirdo-world. I love technology, but I'm nowhere near as good at learning through "normal" methods it as others are. Then again, given time to learn hands on and it's a totally different story. Plus, I'm insanely dedicated. Case in point ... I spent just over 13 hours solid at work today. (i.e. no break, not even for food ... restroom maybe once). It's not intentional - I just wind up with a personal goal in mind and I'll pay pretty much any price to achieve it. But then, personal goals are a strange thing with me. I can't just set them on a whim like others seem to. I can't just say, "ok, this is something I'm going to do." It has to have immediate value to myself, or better, meaning or value of any time-frame for others. Otherwise my perspective is there isn't any point in setting the goal.
One thing I have learned this year is that goals or tasks have to have a genuine, well-defined point for me to be able to put 100% effort into them.
Wow, I'm really tired, and really rambling.
One thought came to my mind yesterday when I was trying to respond to this thread the first time:
He who charts no course, charts a course for mediocrity.
That just came to my mind ... sounds cliched enough that someone else famous has probably already said it. But whatever ... it nicely summarized one of the things that worries me about my life these days. I'm completely adrift.
*sigh*
I just ate a whole large pizza. Looks like I'll be up for a while, so...
Thanks Coug. If I suddenly become rich at some point in the future I'll make an investment in your company. Either way, I hope it works out for you. I had considered starting a company at one point, but aside from a little research, I never went anywhere with it.
Sorry to hear you've been through the same sort of stuff jtr. I hope things don't work out the way you fear ... I'm still optimistic that things will improve employment-wise. Oh sure, I doubt they'll be like they were during the dot-com era for at least another 70 years or so (i.e. until people have forgotten the lessons learned during this one) ... but I really don't believe they can stay this bad forever.
Mercutio, I hadn't realized you'd been through all that insanity in the job market. I'm really kind of stunned (I mean in a, how the heck does that happen, kind of way).
Ahh Fushigi ... someone with some optimism. I think. Maybe?
mubs, you brought to a close really the direction everyone left me headed: "find what you like to do and focus on it. In the long haul, you’ll be better off for it." I have a close friend (months away from completing 8 years of schooling and becoming a doctor) who says almost the exact same thing.
The problem is that I don't know what I want. Or more precisely, I don't feel passionate about anything anymore.
I used to have things I was really passionate about, but it's funny ... having spent several years at university, everything just sort of started to lose its lustre.
That and I'm such an oddball. Even the personality tests I take leave me in weirdo-world. I love technology, but I'm nowhere near as good at learning through "normal" methods it as others are. Then again, given time to learn hands on and it's a totally different story. Plus, I'm insanely dedicated. Case in point ... I spent just over 13 hours solid at work today. (i.e. no break, not even for food ... restroom maybe once). It's not intentional - I just wind up with a personal goal in mind and I'll pay pretty much any price to achieve it. But then, personal goals are a strange thing with me. I can't just set them on a whim like others seem to. I can't just say, "ok, this is something I'm going to do." It has to have immediate value to myself, or better, meaning or value of any time-frame for others. Otherwise my perspective is there isn't any point in setting the goal.
One thing I have learned this year is that goals or tasks have to have a genuine, well-defined point for me to be able to put 100% effort into them.
Wow, I'm really tired, and really rambling.
One thought came to my mind yesterday when I was trying to respond to this thread the first time:
He who charts no course, charts a course for mediocrity.
That just came to my mind ... sounds cliched enough that someone else famous has probably already said it. But whatever ... it nicely summarized one of the things that worries me about my life these days. I'm completely adrift. And time isn't slowing down any.
I just ate a whole large pizza. Looks like I'll be up for a while, so...
Cougtek said:
Thanks Coug. If I suddenly become rich at some point in the future I'll make an investment in your company. Either way, I hope it works out for you. I had considered starting a company at one point, but aside from a little research, I never went anywhere with it.
Sorry to hear you've been through the same sort of stuff jtr. I hope things don't work out the way you fear ... I'm still optimistic that things will improve employment-wise. Oh sure, I doubt they'll be like they were during the dot-com era for at least another 70 years or so (i.e. until people have forgotten the lessons learned during this one) ... but I really don't believe they can stay this bad forever.
Mercutio, I hadn't realized you'd been through all that insanity in the job market. I'm really kind of stunned (I mean in a, how the heck does that happen, kind of way).
Ahh Fushigi ... someone with some optimism. I think. Maybe?
(Glad to hear you have some measure of certainty for the short-term at least.) As for me, yes I'd considered geography-related work. The same sort of thing happened though when I sent resumes to geography-oriented companies ... I'd hear nothing at all (or maybe a "don't call us, we'll call" you message).Howell said:
mubs, you brought to a close really the direction everyone left me headed: "find what you like to do and focus on it. In the long haul, you’ll be better off for it." I have a close friend (months away from completing 8 years of schooling and becoming a doctor) who says almost the exact same thing.
The problem is that I don't know what I want. Or more precisely, I don't feel passionate about anything anymore.
I used to have things I was really passionate about, but it's funny ... having spent several years at university, everything just sort of started to lose its lustre.
That and I'm such an oddball. Even the personality tests I take leave me in weirdo-world. I love technology, but I'm nowhere near as good at learning through "normal" methods it as others are. Then again, given time to learn hands on and it's a totally different story. Plus, I'm insanely dedicated. Case in point ... I spent just over 13 hours solid at work today. (i.e. no break, not even for food ... restroom maybe once). It's not intentional - I just wind up with a personal goal in mind and I'll pay pretty much any price to achieve it. But then, personal goals are a strange thing with me. I can't just set them on a whim like others seem to. I can't just say, "ok, this is something I'm going to do." It has to have immediate value to myself, or better, meaning or value of any time-frame for others. Otherwise my perspective is there isn't any point in setting the goal.
One thing I have learned this year is that goals or tasks have to have a genuine, well-defined point for me to be able to put 100% effort into them.
Wow, I'm really tired, and really rambling.
One thought came to my mind yesterday when I was trying to respond to this thread the first time:
He who charts no course, charts a course for mediocrity.
That just came to my mind ... sounds cliched enough that someone else famous has probably already said it. But whatever ... it nicely summarized one of the things that worries me about my life these days. I'm completely adrift. And time isn't slowing down any.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
i said:
I think anyone who has spent enough time doing things they mostly dislike, whether at work or school, ends up feeling like that. For a really long time after graduating school I wasn't passionate about anything. I chalked it up to burnout, a tragic love affair, an abortive suicide attempt, and doing the above mentioned jobs which I hated. I mean really, truly despised to the point that I used to scream at my alarm clock on Monday morning. Every day was a repeat of the day before almost as though it was scripted. I felt like an automaton. By the time I was laid off I was actually grateful even though I lost the weekly income. I can't fathom how so many people can do the same job for years and not go crazy.
After I started working at home and setting my own schedule the passion gradually started coming back, along with an appreciation for the small things in life. To some extent this was time of day related. I've always been a night person. Typical school schedules and day shifts on all the jobs I had just plain didn't agree with my physiology. I'm tired all the time when I have to be up in the early morning. Furthermore, keeping to a set routine just wears me down. Some people thrive on regimentation. On me it has the opposite effect. Once I could set my hours I started to feel better physically. Eventually, I started doing electronics projects and pursuing other interests. Computers have been one of my hobbies for the last five years, along with so many other interests, including a rediscovery of my love for writing thanks to discussion boards like this. I get passionate, even obsessive about something for a while. Eventually it gets played out and I move on to something else.
If I had to guess I would say first of all you're just plain burned out. Second, you may not enjoy doing any one thing enough to do it daily as a job. This is really what my problem is, so I simply do whatever I make decent money with. Now it's repairing electronics. Next year it might be fixing model trains or laying ceramic tile. I doubt I would find a job, especially in the current economy, that would be both interesting and well-paying, so I'd rather just continue to freelance. Truth is, there may not be a job for people like us in any economy. I'm the type who would likely switch jobs every year or so just to keep from stagnating. In the end boredom and stagnation are the real paths to mediocrity.
mubs
Storage? I am Storage!
* Sigh *
Deep problems, experienced universally, for which there are no easy answers. After several thousand years, you'd think humans would have figured all these things out and nurtured and guided young ones in society to become bright, fulfilled, happy, people. Based on personality, traits, likes & dislikes, strengths & weaknesses.
This guidance was especially lacking in my life. When young, I had too many interests (lack of focus) and spread myself thin; as I grew older, what i and jtr describe happened, to the point where I've lived with a "virtual" lobotomy for the last 13 odd years. I'm just brain-dead now. Too jaded, too cynical, too poisoned. I've never had hallucinatory drugs, ever. Maybe I should try now (not that I have the money, ha ha). Huxley's "Doors of Perception" is certainly persuasive enough.
Deep problems, experienced universally, for which there are no easy answers. After several thousand years, you'd think humans would have figured all these things out and nurtured and guided young ones in society to become bright, fulfilled, happy, people. Based on personality, traits, likes & dislikes, strengths & weaknesses.
This guidance was especially lacking in my life. When young, I had too many interests (lack of focus) and spread myself thin; as I grew older, what i and jtr describe happened, to the point where I've lived with a "virtual" lobotomy for the last 13 odd years. I'm just brain-dead now. Too jaded, too cynical, too poisoned. I've never had hallucinatory drugs, ever. Maybe I should try now (not that I have the money, ha ha). Huxley's "Doors of Perception" is certainly persuasive enough.
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
I tend to think of my 'success' as the product of several factors. In no particular order:i said:
1. Ability to communicate effectively, especially when writing. For some reason this is rare among technical people.
2. Good timing / 'luck'. I've left jobs before getting laid off a couple of times. Reasons varied but the writing was always on the wall if one would care to look for it.
3. Enjoying what I do for a living. Or, rather, doing what I enjoy. I admit it; I like dealing with midrange systems, PCs, WANs/LANs, infosec, etc. in the corporate environment.
4. Avilability of training.
5. Analytical ability, which often boils down to applying what I already know to new environments. For some reason, many people aren't good at this. But heck, all computers and all OSes do fundamentally the same things. Just the commands and structure vary.
mubs
Storage? I am Storage!
You know, Fushigi, you can have most of these and still be stuck in the mud.
I easily have #1, #3 and #5 (as does most everybody at SF). My nose is quite large, and functions pretty well; I've always seen the writing on the wall much sooner than anybody else, but have always had difficulty finding another position. #3 I have been promised in interviews, but the company has always had "no money" to actually make it happen (I wasn't singled out for poor treatment; it was an IT-wide problem).
There is a factor beyond abilities, timing and everything else. Most every humble, successful person (rare to find, obviously), when pressed for the reasons for their success, has always mentioned "luck".
Like religion, this is a dangerous word, extremely subjective, and varying widely in interpretation.
I easily have #1, #3 and #5 (as does most everybody at SF). My nose is quite large, and functions pretty well; I've always seen the writing on the wall much sooner than anybody else, but have always had difficulty finding another position. #3 I have been promised in interviews, but the company has always had "no money" to actually make it happen (I wasn't singled out for poor treatment; it was an IT-wide problem).
There is a factor beyond abilities, timing and everything else. Most every humble, successful person (rare to find, obviously), when pressed for the reasons for their success, has always mentioned "luck".
Like religion, this is a dangerous word, extremely subjective, and varying widely in interpretation.
CougTek
Hairy Aussie
To the 5 factors Fushigi mentioned, I would add a sixth and probably by far the most important : charisma. You don't have it, you won't work in a corporate environment (or at least you'll have a hard time doing so).
In my experience, business environments are full of ass-lickers and pseudo-sophisticated nerd types. If you don't fit the mould in their views (agreeing with their often ignorant opinions, looking like a genuine good ordinary guy and saying what they want to ear), your chances to enter are slim to none.
In my experience, business environments are full of ass-lickers and pseudo-sophisticated nerd types. If you don't fit the mould in their views (agreeing with their often ignorant opinions, looking like a genuine good ordinary guy and saying what they want to ear), your chances to enter are slim to none.
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
I wouldn't call myself charismatic. I'm still relatively introverted (although much less than how I was back in high school).
And I'm certainly not an ass-kisser. In fact, I think several past managers and my present one have liked that about me. I'm not afraid to tell them that something they want or the company is doing sucks. I'll do it but I'll back it up with why it sucks so it's not just an opinion.
Anyway, I've seen the butt-buddy syndrome and it ain't pretty. I've seen people who can talk the lingo but who otherwise couldn't get work done if their grandmother promised them fresh baked cookies. I've seen managers keep their friends close and choose them for promotions before the more deserving people who aren't part of the 'in crowd'. I've seen the back-stabbing.
But I've also seen honesty and fairness. Ethical behavior. Rewards for a job well done.
So maybe my list should be expanded to include being fortunate enough to have experienced some great managers. Managers that cared about their staff and made honest efforts to develope them as people and not just as 'human resources'.
And I'm certainly not an ass-kisser. In fact, I think several past managers and my present one have liked that about me. I'm not afraid to tell them that something they want or the company is doing sucks. I'll do it but I'll back it up with why it sucks so it's not just an opinion.
Anyway, I've seen the butt-buddy syndrome and it ain't pretty. I've seen people who can talk the lingo but who otherwise couldn't get work done if their grandmother promised them fresh baked cookies. I've seen managers keep their friends close and choose them for promotions before the more deserving people who aren't part of the 'in crowd'. I've seen the back-stabbing.
But I've also seen honesty and fairness. Ethical behavior. Rewards for a job well done.
So maybe my list should be expanded to include being fortunate enough to have experienced some great managers. Managers that cared about their staff and made honest efforts to develope them as people and not just as 'human resources'.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Anyone here seen the 1975 version of Rollerball?
I just watched it for the first time. It's almost frighteningly prophetic in this context.
I just watched it for the first time. It's almost frighteningly prophetic in this context.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
Yep. I saw it back in the day. And it is very prophetic.
Another movie I think is relevant in this context is Soylent Green. Global warming, overpopulation, and an even wider disparity between the haves and have nots than today. Sadly, I think this is what the next century will be like. Our civilization reached its pinnacle and it will be all down hill from here.
Another thing-on some day in 2021 the Earth's population is projected to become infinite. Of course it won't, but the sudden increases in population will create chronic shortages of necessities that will lower us to our basest instincts, including cannibilism. Depressing, yes, but unless there is a sea change in thinking, attitude, and leadership worldwide I don't see any other possible timeline.
I just turned 41 today. I tend to think my most comfortable years are behind me. I'll probably be spending my old age scrapping for food in dumpsters like everyone else here, or maybe if I'm really lucky I'll find a nice big rat to hold me for a few days. I really hope this is all just my cynical side coming through and one day I'll laugh about it. Then again, maybe not. That's the most frightening part.
Another movie I think is relevant in this context is Soylent Green. Global warming, overpopulation, and an even wider disparity between the haves and have nots than today. Sadly, I think this is what the next century will be like. Our civilization reached its pinnacle and it will be all down hill from here.
Another thing-on some day in 2021 the Earth's population is projected to become infinite. Of course it won't, but the sudden increases in population will create chronic shortages of necessities that will lower us to our basest instincts, including cannibilism. Depressing, yes, but unless there is a sea change in thinking, attitude, and leadership worldwide I don't see any other possible timeline.
I just turned 41 today. I tend to think my most comfortable years are behind me. I'll probably be spending my old age scrapping for food in dumpsters like everyone else here, or maybe if I'm really lucky I'll find a nice big rat to hold me for a few days. I really hope this is all just my cynical side coming through and one day I'll laugh about it. Then again, maybe not. That's the most frightening part.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
BTW, Merc, I just spent the better part of an hour reading those porn clerk stories. They tend to reinforce my feelings that society is falling to its basest level. I wouldn't even think to do the stuff that some of those customers do, let alone actually do it. While you or anyone else of reasonable intelligence can view porn for what it is, I think it has a really negative effect on the general population, and those live strip clubs that we can't shutter on free-speech grounds make me cringe. Not because of any puritanical views on sexuality on my part, but due to the scum they attract. I think of them as roach motels for humans except that the humans (unfortunately) don't get stuck inside and die.
CougTek
Hairy Aussie
Sorry, didn't find one with 41 candles.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
Thanks, Coug. For what it's worth, actually being 41 is better than I thought it would be when I was 19 or 20. I had visions of myself at 41 as a fat, bald, white-haired old man. Thankfully, that isn't true. Besides, celebrating your 41st, 51st, 61st, whatever birthday sure beats the alternative.
I have a statement and a question to you all.
The statement is this, the difference between Liberal’s democrat and conservative republican, Liberal Democrats try to protect the working class from high finance and the exploiting companies, as a number of you have described above.
Republican conservatism is the exploitation of workers and protecting their assets from the workers.
Than the question is this; if the above statement is correct How is it the republicans conservative can get into political power because there is no country in the world today that has more than 50 percent of its population as Owners off all the different types of companies they have.
So this must lead one to this unfortunate conclusion there are far too many Foolish and stupid people out there today who play this game. I know there will be many who disagree with me and they will use words like “we must survive” and all the other different way of denial but what about those little words call “Self Respect” and don’t forget all you Fair minded patriotic republicans out there to tune in to Fox News for your daily dose off Fair and Balanced garbage reporting Hogwash.
Am I missing something or am I totally wrong?
The statement is this, the difference between Liberal’s democrat and conservative republican, Liberal Democrats try to protect the working class from high finance and the exploiting companies, as a number of you have described above.
Republican conservatism is the exploitation of workers and protecting their assets from the workers.
Than the question is this; if the above statement is correct How is it the republicans conservative can get into political power because there is no country in the world today that has more than 50 percent of its population as Owners off all the different types of companies they have.
So this must lead one to this unfortunate conclusion there are far too many Foolish and stupid people out there today who play this game. I know there will be many who disagree with me and they will use words like “we must survive” and all the other different way of denial but what about those little words call “Self Respect” and don’t forget all you Fair minded patriotic republicans out there to tune in to Fox News for your daily dose off Fair and Balanced garbage reporting Hogwash.
Am I missing something or am I totally wrong?
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
People vote for elected officials usually on the basis of the cadidate's positions on one or two issues.
- Right-to-lifers will generally vote republican as Rs are generally against abortion and Ds are generally pro-choice.
- Environmentalists will generally vote democratic as, while Ds aren't necessarily doing a world of good for the environment, Rs tend to actively participate in it's destruction.
- Some people somehow think Reaganomics actually worked so they vote R. Don't ask me; Reaganomics cut funding for everything from eduction to NASA and still wound up causing a recession.
etc.
Beyond that is the charisma of the candidate. Gore might have won the electoral as well as the popular vote if he had been more charismatic. Well, been charismatic at all. Clinton & Reagan were very charismatic. Clinton in person is supposedly a master of communication. Not only remembering names but just a really good public speaker.
What I personally don't get is how people can think the R party stands for the good of the individual when everything they do seems geared towards worsening the condition of the average person for the benefit of the wealthy.
- Right-to-lifers will generally vote republican as Rs are generally against abortion and Ds are generally pro-choice.
- Environmentalists will generally vote democratic as, while Ds aren't necessarily doing a world of good for the environment, Rs tend to actively participate in it's destruction.
- Some people somehow think Reaganomics actually worked so they vote R. Don't ask me; Reaganomics cut funding for everything from eduction to NASA and still wound up causing a recession.
etc.
Beyond that is the charisma of the candidate. Gore might have won the electoral as well as the popular vote if he had been more charismatic. Well, been charismatic at all. Clinton & Reagan were very charismatic. Clinton in person is supposedly a master of communication. Not only remembering names but just a really good public speaker.
What I personally don't get is how people can think the R party stands for the good of the individual when everything they do seems geared towards worsening the condition of the average person for the benefit of the wealthy.
jtr1962
Storage? I am Storage!
You really don't understand American politics, its.fubar. There are no clear lines any more on which party is better for the average person. The Democrats generally try to help people with regulations that stifle business and handouts that the middle class ends up paying for but is rarely eligible to get. They also support labor unions. While labor unions were a good thing fifty or a hundred years ago as they fought for decent working conditions, today they've become dinosaurs which exist only for their own good. Labor union rules frequently mean companies can't reassign workers as they see fit thanks to "job descriptions". Therefore, a worker's job will be gone if he/she has no more work rather than having them reassigned to a busier department. Everything with labor unions is based on seniority, so an ambitious worker really has no way to get raises or promotions for good performance. Labor unions basically cater to lazy and unambitious workers who are happy to stagnate for their career.
While the Republicans do tend to destroy the environment and do tend to also favor the rich, many people will vote for them for whatever tax cuts they'll promise. When you're not eligible for government benefits, and get small or no raises, a tax cut is the only way to see more money. While I don't favor tax cuts if they'll result in deficit spending, I'd rather see a tax cut over a new benefit program that I'll likely be ineligible for any how.
People also vote for certain parties based on social policies. Democrats generally favor abortion, gun control, and are against the death penalty. Republicans tend to be just the opposite. I find this a little annoying because if you happen to think differently than the party line, there is no candidate for you. Anyway, by and large these three issues, especially abortion, are largely irrelevant to me personally compared to how I think a candidate will run the country. I couldn't care less which way a candidate goes on the abortion issue, the death penalty will never be used as much as I think it should(i.e. for every major felony like rape and worse) so it ends up being unimportant. While I wish it were easier for trained members of the general public to get firearms, I recognize that at least some regulation is needed to keep criminals from obtaining weapons. Therefore, neither party really reflects my views on gun control so that also ends up being irrelevant. Sadly, few candidates these days really seem like leadership material. I've tended to vote mostly Republican mainly for the tax cuts, but I wouldn't hesitate to vote Democratic or for a third party should I feel the person would be a better leader. And charisma is totally unimportant to me in candidate. I'd rather have someone who can't tie their shoelaces if they'll bring half a brain to the job.
While the Republicans do tend to destroy the environment and do tend to also favor the rich, many people will vote for them for whatever tax cuts they'll promise. When you're not eligible for government benefits, and get small or no raises, a tax cut is the only way to see more money. While I don't favor tax cuts if they'll result in deficit spending, I'd rather see a tax cut over a new benefit program that I'll likely be ineligible for any how.
People also vote for certain parties based on social policies. Democrats generally favor abortion, gun control, and are against the death penalty. Republicans tend to be just the opposite. I find this a little annoying because if you happen to think differently than the party line, there is no candidate for you. Anyway, by and large these three issues, especially abortion, are largely irrelevant to me personally compared to how I think a candidate will run the country. I couldn't care less which way a candidate goes on the abortion issue, the death penalty will never be used as much as I think it should(i.e. for every major felony like rape and worse) so it ends up being unimportant. While I wish it were easier for trained members of the general public to get firearms, I recognize that at least some regulation is needed to keep criminals from obtaining weapons. Therefore, neither party really reflects my views on gun control so that also ends up being irrelevant. Sadly, few candidates these days really seem like leadership material. I've tended to vote mostly Republican mainly for the tax cuts, but I wouldn't hesitate to vote Democratic or for a third party should I feel the person would be a better leader. And charisma is totally unimportant to me in candidate. I'd rather have someone who can't tie their shoelaces if they'll bring half a brain to the job.
blakerwry
Storage? I am Storage!
You could probably replace that with "if you think for yourself".
I was watching the democratic debate the other day... pretty dissapointing. I haven't followed the candidates very well, from the speech I liked General Clark, disliked Kucinich, and thought the ganging up on Dean was stupid.
When looking for a president I also look for the best leader. All candidates try to play for the most votes so their choices on issues wont necessarily be the same as yours, it is the way they lead/direct the nation to the future that matters most.