Random Hard Drive Shutdowns

[jtr1962]

The last few weeks I've noticed something strange going on. Generally, after my computer has been on for a few days straight, I 'll hear one of the hard drives shut down and restart. This totally freezes the system, and the drive won't recognize again until I power the system on and off. After that, everything is fine until the next time it happens. All my drives scandisk fine and Dtemp shows no SMART problems, either. My 40 GB drive seems to regularly reallocate a sector every now and then(the total number is now up to 19 over the two years I've had the drive). The other two drives have no reallocated sectors. In short, I don't think a failing drive is to blame.

I haven't been able to pin down whether or not this happens after the system is on for exactly the same number of hours. If so, it could be that one of the drives shuts down every so often via firmware, but I've had the same three drives in this machine for about six months, and I haven't noticed this until recently. BTW, the drives are all Maxtors-5T040H4, 6Y080P0, and 4G100J5.

Can a virus do this type of thing?

 

[Mercutio]

I had similar problems with a 40GB Quantum drive a few years ago. I swore up and down there wasn't anything wrong with the drive, except for the times when there was.

Back your data up off that thing, jtr, and RMA it if you can; that might live several more months, but it's dying right now.

 

[CougTek]

Have you tried PowerMax to detect any possible problem not seen by Windows' scan utility?

 

[blakerwry]

Usually when a drive cant read a sector it will park and unpark (may or may not spin down). So your noticing of the bad sectors plus the spinup/down noise in assosiation with the freezing is a good sign this is a bad drive.

The fact that your computer freezes might be partially controller related though. Some controllers really hate bad sectors or they can even lose drives like you said if the drive resets improperly.

 

[P5-133XL]

Check voltages on your PS. - Run a monitor program with an alarm capability.

Change Molex plug - You may have an intermittant connection.

 

[jtr1962]

Thanks for the ideas. I'll check the power connections and use the PowerMax utility. I think the drive may still be under warranty. I back up regularly so no worries there but I think I'll start using my 80 GB for my boot drive. I was planning to switch soon anyway as the 40 GB is getting a bit cramped.

The number of reallocated sectors was about 3 or 4 for the longest time, and in the last few months crept up to 19. Maybe the drive is on the way out. In any case I'm not taking chances. I'll just use the 40 GB(or whatever I get if I RMA it) to back up my 80.

BTW, any experiences RMAing drives with Maxtor? Frankly, I'm a little reluctant to use any replacement drive sent to me via UPS. I never purchase drives via mail order because I don't feel comfortable with the handling issues. Should I just switch everything to the 80 GB and use the 40 GB as a spare? Chances are that it'll last a long time if it's not my boot drive(less seeking). Plus I've become somewhat attached to it. :wink:

 

[CougTek]

BTW, any experiences RMAing drives with Maxtor?

Yes. If you're willing to give them your credit card number, they'll ship you a replacement drive within a few days and ask you to send back the defective unit. The drive they send is well packed in a kind of plastic/foam shell. I sent back the defective units I've had in the same package that they used to send me the replacement drive. You'll have 30 days to ship the defective drive. They pay UPS shipping both ways. I've had no problem with their RMA'ing service so far. I don't use it often either.

 

[Mercutio]

I'm 3 for 4 on Maxtor sending back bigger drives on those I've RMA'd.

I've had two Maxtor drives fail on me in warranty period. One was a 740x, the other a DM8.

Usually I get back about 20GB more than I sent in. One thing I will point out though, is that they've NEVER sent back the same kind of drive as I sent in. I got a DM9 for a 740x, a 740x for a DM8 (only time the drives were the same size), a DM60 for a Quatum AS and a DM40+ for a different AS.

 

[timwhit]

I had good luck with Maxtor replacement service as well. I didn't trust the replacement drive so I just sold it on eBay and got way more for it then what it was worth. Then I put that money towards a newer larger drive.

 

[CityK]

I've had to RMA to Maxtor twice (the second time because the first replacement drive they sent was horrible....the second drive they sent was brand new). Overall, quick and painless experience....though I didn't like the fact that UPS just left the packages in between the side doors to my house.

They pay UPS shipping both ways.

Are you sure about the return shipping? If so, then crap, I could have saved myself 10 bucks ($5/RMA via express post). I didn't get any return labels or anything....just a whole lot of duplicate paper work in the plastic shelve on the outside. Did the shipping label on the box also serve as a return label?

CK

 

[CougTek]

They pay UPS shipping both ways.

Are you sure about the return shipping? If so, then crap, I could have saved myself 10 bucks ($5/RMA via express post). I didn't get any return labels or anything....just a whole lot of duplicate paper work in the plastic shelve on the outside.

Yes I am and yes, I did the same thing that you did too. While there is no label, one of the paper sheets has the returning number for UPS shipping (same sheet as the one with the returning address IIRC). But the last time I returned a drive to them, I forgot about it and returned it via Canada Post (cost me around 5-6$). I had many things to do that day and I only remembered that I had to ship the drive...but forgot that I could ship it for free via UPS.

 

[CityK]

just a whole lot of duplicate paper work in the plastic shelve on the outside.

Doh! I meant sleeve.

While there is no label, one of the paper sheets has the returning number for UPS shipping (same sheet as the one with the returning address IIRC)....could ship it for free via UPS.

Doh!Doh!Doh!Doh!Doh!Doh!Doh!

 

[jtr1962]

The hard drives check out error-free with PowerMax, I fixed the pins to make better contact, and the problem still persists. At this point I think it is probably not hard drive related because it seems to occur whenever there's a lot of activity on any of my drives. I'm thinking my power supply might be on the way out. I received this computer from a friend who bought it c. 1998. He used it constantly and I use it constantly. I suppose after five years the power supply might start shutting down intermittantly under high loads. Any thoughts on this? I haven't seen the problem happen when the drives are idle(as when I leave the system running overnight, for example).

Some more information of my configuration: The three hard disks are on a Promise TX2 Ultra 100 controller. One drive power cable from the P/S supplies all three drives plus a zip drive(I added two plugs with soldered connections for this). The other drive power cable supplies the two optical drives and the floppy. I don't know how helpful any of this is. I'm hoping someone has seen and fixed a problem like this before. It's starting to occur more frequently now. If I try running MS Train Simulator(this causes heavy hard drive activity) I get a hard drive reset and the system freezes within a few minutes.

 

[CougTek]

If you suspect the PSU then it would be wise to replace it as soon as possible. Depending how the PSU sings it last song, it can cost you a lot more than just a new power supply unit. I'm sure NewEgg or Googlegear must have some free shipping sales on acceptable PSU right now.

 

[Howell]

PSU are manufactured with enough power connectors for the power rating of the PSU. You may be overloading the PSU on just one of the lines. Possibly also combined with the age of the PSU but I'm stretching on that one. Try disconnecting say the zip and an optical drive. As you know, drives pull a lot of current on startup.

 

[jtr1962]

Thanks, Howell. I was thinking of that and yesterday I took the 100GB drive of out the machine(it is in a removeable drive bay). The problem hasn't remanifested itself yet, even when I was playing MS Train Simulator for an hour. I'm going to just do what I normally do, leave the PC on 24/7, and see if the problem reoccurs. If not, then your hypothesis of 3 drives on one power line causing the problem seems feasible. Only problem is that the other line powers the processor. That Powerleap upgrade that I did last year receives its power via a hard drive plug from the drive power cable, so I tend to think between that and the two optical drives that line might already be tapped out.

I have yet to open up the power supply. Dust buildup may be causing the problem, and maybe I can find a marginal component(perhaps a filter cap is starting to fail). As an electronics engineer and repairperson, I can speak with certainty that the most difficult problems to trace and fix are intermittant ones like this. When you can't reproduce a problem at will, it is hard to fix it. I'll probably buy a new P/S anyway just in case this one goes belly up, but I would like to be sure that this is really the cause of my problem. Also, it's entirely possible there is something wrong with the 100GB drive, which was last on my list of suspects since the problem only occurred with heavy activity on the other two. Once again, however, PowerMax, NU, DTemp, and Scandisk find nothing wrong with any of my drives. The closest thing to a problem is 20 reallocated sectors on my 40GB drive(my other two drives have none). However, since it's 2 years old, and has been subject to a few shutdowns while writing due to power interruptions, I don't consider this unusual or cause for alarm.

 

[Howell]

Glad I could help.
I'm pretty sure the amperage ratings for the PSU is for all wires of that voltage. So if I understand your supposition correctly, it doesn't matter on which leg you added the connectors just that say the 12V line has too much power draw. One characteristic of more expensive PSUs is that they provide more current per line than cheaper PSUs.

Now that you remind me of the Powerleap adaptor I think that would certainly contribute to the problem. For drives the 12V line powers the motor and the 5V line the electronics. I think CPUs run off the 12V line.

Monitor the 12V line for dips.

 

[NRG = mc²]

I have been getting the same problem for the past 6 months with my WD800JB with the only difference that it happens once every couple of weeks, and that it just goes clunk without freezing the system (though it is the boot drive). As I have no critical data on it and can afford to rebuild the system if/when it goes tits up I haven't bothered to look into it.

In my case its definately not the PSU as

a) The PSU is rated to well over the power draw of the system and is a quality Zalman (SPI/FSP/Sparkle) unit rated at 300W - my system probably draws well below 200W under load.

b) I have swapped the PSU and the problem did persist

It is likely it is your PSU as others have pointed out - a cheap PSU running on 5 years will become flakey, especially if overloaded. I would reccomend you buy a quality PSU like an Antec or FSP unit as you can use it in a future upgrade too. Skimping on power quality is one thing I wouldn't reccomend.

 

[NRG = mc²]

Now that you remind me of the Powerleap adaptor I think that would certainly contribute to the problem. For drives the 12V line powers the motor and the 5V line the electronics. I think CPUs run off the 12V line.

It probably runs off the 5v line - there are less heat losses involved in regulating 5v down to the 1.6 or so that the Tualatin chip requires, but they may have used 12v for whatever reason - check the traces on the Powerleap adaptor to see which rail it uses - it might even use both so might not be possible to tell easily.

 

[Jan Kivar]

Now that you remind me of the Powerleap adaptor I think that would certainly contribute to the problem. For drives the 12V line powers the motor and the 5V line the electronics. I think CPUs run off the 12V line.

It probably runs off the 5v line - there are less heat losses involved in regulating 5v down to the 1.6 or so that the Tualatin chip requires, but they may have used 12v for whatever reason - check the traces on the Powerleap adaptor to see which rail it uses - it might even use both so might not be possible to tell easily.

I think it runs on both (well, at least both 5 V and 12 V go to the adapter). IIRC max. current rating for the wire used in PSU cables (16 AWG) is 6 A. That's per one wire.

I did run a PowerLeap & 1,3 GHz Tualatin with 230 W Enlight PSU. Compared to the old processor (PIII 600E @ 1,3 V) I could easily tell that the computer was more powerful - the PSU fan started revving up much. I replaced it with the FSP350-60PN(PF).

Cheers,

Jan

 

[jtr1962]

It turns out the 40 GB drive is not the culprit. My 80 GB Diamondmax Plus 9 may be. Or perhaps my power supply is starting to get flacky and the DM Plus 9 interacts with it in such a way as to get the problem to manifest itself. I temporarily disconnected the DM Plus 9 and so far the problem hasn't repeated. The problem was occuring when this drive was the only one on the system. I still may have a flaky power supply. I notice a high-frequency chirping from the P/S immediately before the resets occur. I've been around electronics long enough to know that this sounds like a switching power supply going out of regulation. Whether the drive is causing problems with the power supply or vice versa I have no idea. I opened up and cleaned out the P/S (yech-it was really dusty in there). Apparently no leaky electrolytics but there still could be marginal components in there. It didn't fix anything but at least it eliminated another variable (possible heat buildup). I also swapped out my Promise card with an identical one-same thing but yet another variable eliminated.

I'm thinking along the lines of getting a new power supply and seeing if this solves the problem. If not, I'll RMA the drive. At least I have it narrowed down to one drive, and not the one I suspected, although I can think of other ways to spend the better part of a day. At least while I had the case open I put in a nice bright white LED in place of the green power indicator, and an ocean blue one for the amber hard drive activity indicator. Looks cool. 8)

 

[NRG = mc²]

It does sound like a PSU related problem with that chirping. I take it you can't borrow a PSU from anyone else?

 

[jtr1962]

I probably can swap power supplies with another of my machines, but my only other machine with an ATX power supply is even older-a Pentium machine I found by the curb and refurbished with parts from eBay. Everything else I have uses AT supplies. As you can tell, I have a lot of older equipment. :wink: