Religion Flow Chart

[sechs]

Why do so many people call themselves Christians when they are Jehovah's Witnesses?
http://cdn.holytaco.com/www/sites/default/files/images/2009/10/Religion-Flowchart_1.jpg

 

[Howell]

Aww, boring generic Christian again? haha, I'm anything but boring or generic.

 

[Mercutio]

Aww, boring generic Christian again? haha, I'm anything but boring or generic.

Other than minor ecclesiastical quibbles about stuff like the nature of free will and the relative value of action vs. ritual vs. listening to some mope with slicked-back hair and a mail order divinity degree , the various branches of your religion seem to pretty much be the same to me.

 

[Howell]

Other than minor ecclesiastical quibbles about stuff like the nature of free will and the relative value of action vs. ritual vs. listening to some mope with slicked-back hair and a mail order divinity degree , the various branches of your religion seem to pretty much be the same to me.

The essentials of Christianity are often glossed over or worse forgotten by some very visible Christian representatives.

Most of the differences people on the outside notice are the various attempts to express the essentials. That is what you are describing. Personally, I don't spend much time thinking about the stuff you're describing.

What truly separates "following Christ" from everything else is not how to live your life but why. And then discovering and acting out what that looks like in your personal context. Most people who think of them selves as good Christians get this reversed. I say that not self-righteously just factually. Half the time I get this reversed. But then something or someone reminds me of the essentials and I start back at the beginning.

 

[LunarMist]

That's a heavily Western biased view.

 

[Mercutio]

What truly separates "following Christ" from everything else is not how to live your life but why. And then discovering and acting out what that looks like in your personal context. Most people who think of them selves as good Christians get this reversed. I say that not self-righteously just factually. Half the time I get this reversed. But then something or someone reminds me of the essentials and I start back at the beginning.

You sound like you derive your entire morality from your religion. Are you one of those people who thinks everyone needs the threat of eternal punishment to keep themselves from murder and rape?

Because that's an argument I get a lot when talking to christians.

 

[Howell]

That's a heavily Western biased view.

I wouldn't doubt it as I am heavily western (pun intended). Even so, most of the people who are reading it are in the midst of western culture and therefore it would applicable.

For the sake of education maybe you would like to provide a different side.

 

[Howell]

You sound like you derive your entire morality from your religion. Are you one of those people who thinks everyone needs the threat of eternal punishment to keep themselves from murder and rape?

Because that's an argument I get a lot when talking to christians.

I don't think anyone can escape the influence of local culture on the development of a personal morality. Personally, beyond that, historical thought in philosophy and religion do play a part. Eventually I have to make my own decisions.

For me, these decisions are made with the motivational undertone of 1: loving God, 2: loving other people.

A threat of eternal punishment doesn't enter my mind.

 

[Mercutio]

For me, these decisions are made with the motivational undertone of 1: loving God, 2: loving other people.

What does god have to do with it?
Would you make those same choices without a book that told you to act in a certain way?

 

[sechs]

What does god have to do with it?
Would you make those same choices without a book that told you to act in a certain way?

Better yet, do you need a book to empathize with people, or can you manage without it?

 

[Howell]

What does god have to do with it?
Would you make those same choices without a book that told you to act in a certain way?

What doesn't God have to do with it? I'm going to need a little bit of context for the question.

 

[Mercutio]

What doesn't God have to do with it? I'm going to need a little bit of context for the question.

Absent your religious beliefs, would you still act the same way?

 

[Howell]

Absent your religious beliefs, would you still act the same way?

Hmmmm. That is a difficult question; akin to asking if I would act the same if I were not a male. Hmmm, its hard to say. My religious beliefs don't act like handcuffs; keeping me from doing the raping and pillaging that I really wish I could do.

I'm not sure I'm a good person to ask because I've been studying Christianity for most of my life. I'll ask one of my friends tonight.

My best guess is that I would be less willing to look out for the less fortunate and more willing to screw anyone over if it benefited me and could not harm me in my lifetime. That's the nature of my competitive personality. But then again...

 

[LunarMist]

Hey I think Religion is not choice, it comes from your birth
you have to follow that only.

Beliefs are learned, not genetic. Whether it is practical to have different beliefs than your family or culture is another story. It's not uncommon in the US.

 

[Mercutio]

Hmmm, its hard to say. My religious beliefs don't act like handcuffs

Your religious beliefs look a lot like shackles to me, and what's more, given the number of times someone has told me their faith is the only thing that keeps them from doing terrible things, I think it's a valid question to ask.

 

[Howell]

Your religious beliefs look a lot like shackles to me, and what's more, given the number of times someone has told me their faith is the only thing that keeps them from doing terrible things, I think it's a valid question to ask.

I agree that it is a valid question to ask. I also think that trying to feel good about yourself by following a set of rules is not what Christianity is all about. That is what is known as legalism in Christian circles.

That's not to say I never find myself thinking that way sometimes.

What would an unshackled version look like to you?

 

[ddrueding]

I think the shackles are the "or else" part of any structured religion. It's the part you have to do for no other reason then belief in their claims.

If I am a good person, always acting generously, etc, basically doing everything that the christian religions ask except believing in god or going to church, do I make it to heaven? It's the MLM and profiteering portions that I dislike the most. Well, except for the pro-life bit, well, except for the anti-gay bit...but those are flaming topics that can sit this round out

 

[Mercutio]

What would an unshackled version look like to you?

ddrueding kind of joked about it, but truthfully, Leviticus is filled with hateful bile. The Bible does not exactly teach equality or tolerance, and those are things I see as crucial to morality.

 

[Howell]

ddrueding kind of joked about it, but truthfully, Leviticus is filled with hateful bile. The Bible does not exactly teach equality or tolerance, and those are things I see as crucial to morality.

You said more about what you don't like about the Bible but you didn't really answer the question.

BTW, people who follow Christ are not morally bound by Levitical law. It is there for reference. The Bible as a whole does teach equality and tolerance.

 

[Howell]

If I am a good person, always acting generously, etc, basically doing everything that the christian religions ask except believing in god or going to church, do I make it to heaven?

Without a belief in God what is heaven?

 

[ddrueding]

Without a belief in God what is heaven?

My question was actually based on a true story. At one point (and only one point), I was dating a fairly religious girl. At the time I was a very good, upstanding, and law-abiding individual. She was obsessed with "saving" me, yet the only thing she wanted to do was get me to church.

 

[Mercutio]

You said more about what you don't like about the Bible but you didn't really answer the question.

The Bible as a whole does teach equality and tolerance.

Is that the part where God encourages the slaughter of any but his chosen people or his worshipers? Or the part where certain duties are proscribed for women and not men or men but not women?

Half the big ten commandments (surely those were not rejected with the rest of the old testament?) have nothing to do with morality, but about stroking the ego of a purportedly omnipotent, omniscient being... and those commandments are placed ahead of those for murder and theft.

If you're going by things attributed to Jesus, then you're having to put up with massive contradictions between the Gospels. The same guy who sat down with whores and sinners also told his followers that in order to be holy they need to abandon their families to truly follow him, and smote a tree for not having fruit to give him.

There is a common, agreed-upon human morality. For society to function, we do not kill one another without extreme cause. We do not steal or cause deliberate harm to others. We act with charity when we possibly can. Those things have existed for as long as human civilization, and probably much longer. I suspect that every human society reaches the understanding of these principles, and that doing so has far less to do with religious belief and much more to do with allowing us to live in groups in the first place.

 

[Mercutio]

Without a belief in God what is heaven?

Getting to be the suntan lotion boy at the Playboy Mansion for all eternity.

 

[LunarMist]

At the time I was a very good, upstanding, and law-abiding individual.

And now...:scratch:

 

[ddrueding]

And now...:scratch:

Good at the moment, though there was some time in-between that I'm still cleaning up after.

 

[Howell]

My question was actually based on a true story. At one point (and only one point), I was dating a fairly religious girl. At the time I was a very good, upstanding, and law-abiding individual. She was obsessed with "saving" me, yet the only thing she wanted to do was get me to church.

That is an unfortunate misrepresentation she gave. If she really believes that its not good for her either.

 

[sechs]

So, she was a Jehovah's Witness?

 

[jtr1962]

Half the big ten commandments (surely those were not rejected with the rest of the old testament?) have nothing to do with morality, but about stroking the ego of a purportedly omnipotent, omniscient being....

And that's always been the biggest problem I've had trying to make any sense of most religions. OK, I'll grant that there exist beings more powerful than humans, more advanced. Perhaps millions of years more advanced. As Charlton Heston said in Planet of the Apes: "I'm a seeker too. But my dreams aren't like yours. I can't help thinking that somewhere in the universe there has to be something better than man. Has to be." Now the part I don't get is why some arbitrarily advanced being would need to have its ego stoked by a relatively insignificant lifeform such as human beings. For that matter, would a very intelligent, advanced being even have much of an ego? I tend to find with humans as a rule that the more intelligent the mind, the smaller the ego. Look at some of our most brilliant scientists. Most are quite humble, even self-deprecating. They didn't seem to need or in some cases even want peer approval. And some being 1000 times more intelligent would want the intellectual equivalent of cockroaches (sorry but that's what humans are relative to them) worshipping them? It's like me going to a termite mound, and then destroying it because the inhabitants don't give me tribute. No, that's the main part of religion which I've found makes the least sense. The rest about treating your fellow man as you want to be treated can just as easily be valid in a context without the existence of a higher being. In some sense it's in your self-interest to treat other humans decently. And it's even in your self-interest to some extent to care about future generations as your children may be among them.