Schiavo

Howell

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time said:
As just one example of the dubious content of the affidavit, the Schiff fMRI study is quoted, but without mentioning the additional tests that showed any such response in PVS patients was automatic rather than conscious.

I reiterate that my feelings on the matter revolve around whether or not she is imprisoned in her own mind or an ex-person.

You did not refer to any specific "other tests" (Would you care to?) so I had to dig some up on my own. At any rate, I think your "any such" is a little too sweeping. I don't think of you as particularly glib.

Schiff:
In the case of the patient language-related tasks, auditory stimulation with personalized narratives elicited cortical activity in the superior and middle temporal gyrus.

Other tests:
In control subjects, auditory click stimuli activated bilateral auditory cortices [Brodmann areas (BA) 41 and 42] and the contralateral auditory association cortices (BA 22). In the patients, although resting metabolism was decreased to 61% of normal values, bilateral auditory areas 41 and 42 showed activation as seen in the controls, but the temporoparietal junction cortex (BA 22) failed to be activated. Moreover, the auditory association cortex was functionally disconnected from the posterior parietal association area (BA 40), the anterior cingulate cortex (BA 24) and the hippocampus, as revealed by psychophysiological interaction analysis.
 

sechs

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Now they get to argue over what to do with her body!

If I recall correctly, the husband wants to cremate it and give everyone ashes, and the family wants her burried in the their plot.
 

RWIndiana

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Amen. And may we not take any more away from their families to kill them.
 

RWIndiana

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Mercutio said:
Since when is a husband not part of a family?

If my brother in law was abusive to my sister, he would not be a part of my family. But that's beside the point:
I think this question should better be phrased "since when is the husband the only family?" Since that is what the judicial system has judged. That is a huge step backwards for women's lib, since the husband now apparently OWNS the wife, and no one else can say or do anything (not even the president and congress) to stop him from starving her to death. Incredible!
 

Pradeep

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RWIndiana said:
Mercutio said:
Since when is a husband not part of a family?

If my brother in law was abusive to my sister, he would not be a part of my family. But that's beside the point:
I think this question should better be phrased "since when is the husband the only family?" Since that is what the judicial system has judged. That is a huge step backwards for women's lib, since the husband now apparently OWNS the wife, and no one else can say or do anything (not even the president and congress) to stop him from starving her to death. Incredible!

One would hope that your sister would divorce from your abusive brother-in-law, and then he wouldn't be a part of her family either.

I'm glad the President and Congress couldn't stop the process, despite all their futile efforts, the Executive branch has no businesss meddling in the affairs of the Judicial branch, or the individual lives of US citizens.
 

i

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I promised myself I wouldn't post in this particular discussion, but here I am...

RWIndiana said:
If my brother in law was abusive to my sister, he would not be a part of my family. But that's beside the point:
I think this question should better be phrased "since when is the husband the only family?" Since that is what the judicial system has judged. That is a huge step backwards for women's lib, since the husband now apparently OWNS the wife, and no one else can say or do anything (not even the president and congress) to stop him from starving her to death. Incredible!

I am so surprised by you RWIndiana. Out of all the people here I figured you'd be amongst the last to start attacking the sanctity of marriage. I guess you're just another one of those people nowadays who thinks of marriage as being nothing more than some cheap legal thing, that can easily be thrown away with a divorce sometime later if it, "all turned out to be one big mistake."

Or in this case because mommy and daddy decided they didn't like their daughter's choice.

Where I come from, marriage is about two people who are in love. Do you understand what love is, RW? Your trivialization of marriage makes it clear to me that you do not.

I'm sitting here shaking my head over what you wrote.

Part of what that love is is a respect for the other person ... not "owning" anyone (RW, that statement of yours disgusted me). I don't know what kind of sad experiences you've had around married people RW, but not everyone is like that. Michael Schiavo was committed to his wife, and he wanted to follow her wishes to the very end. But people like you - people who had NO BUSINESS INTERFERING IN ANOTHER COUPLE'S TRAGEDY - decided that his marriage meant nothing.

Who are you to judge whether this couple was in love or not? Who are you to judge another man YOU'VE NEVER EVEN MET ONCE? Who are you to judge?

I have something called faith, RW. I have faith that Michael Schiavo married Terri because they were in love.

RW, you've claimed to be religious, but there is nothing religious about you. I'm seeing now that you're just another random troll out for a laugh on the Internet. Go crawl back under your rock.
 

i

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I'm still fuming.

RW, it's like you've suddenly revealed here that you're playing the card game of life and you've only got 11 cards in front of you. Good grief, man! There are 52 cards in the deck! You can't play this game if you don't have all the cards!

Of course the needs of a marriage come before the needs of ones' parents.

Most of us started to clue into this by about the 6th grade after our introduction to a pair of families: the Montagues and the Capulets. Perhaps you've heard of them? No? Well, consider it a clue towards finding a few more cards.

It's people like you, RW, who are waging a quiet assault on family in this country. And in my book, that is an assault against a critical component of America's very stability.

In my apparently archaic view, when two people are married, they become the beginning of a new family. At that point, the needs of the husband and wife and any children (current or future) must be held above all others. This is such a critical point that I see being eroded here that it actually scares me. If you allow the members of the past -- the Montague parents and the Capulet parents -- to determine the rules of that new family, you are condemning family - and thus the nation - to death and decay.

In an article titled, "Speak Now or Forever Hold Your Peace: On the Communal Nature of Marriage," posted at the Family Resource Council's website, Dr. Allan C. Carlson shows that he understands this. He eloquently puts into words something that some of us inherently understand: marriage involves concentric circles of interest. Here they are:

The First Community Circle: Parents and Their Unborn Children
The Second Community Circle: Extended Family, or Kin
The Third Community Circle: The Neighborhood
The Fourth Community Circle: The Community of Faith
The Fifth Community Circle: The Nation as a Community

You'll note that this article is on the subject of what consitutes healthy marriages. In other words, what should be taken into consideration when considering whether a marriage would truly be viable or not. That's tangential to what we're talking about here, but I wanted to post it because it shows that even before a marriage has occurred, even the Family Research Council is highlighting one fact: the first circle is that of the "Parents and Their Unborn Children."

Michael and Terri had no children in this saga (and if they did, as Dr. Carlson highlights, their needs would have been on par with their parents), but they were two prospective parents. And as a result, their needs came first. It has to be that way in order for family, and thus society, to survive. You cannot cling to the past (#2). You cannot expect a neighborhood (#3) or a church (#4) to be the core of a family. You cannot expect a nation to grow a successful family (#5). All those groups play a role in support, but the core, once again, is formed by the parents and their children.

And so when I see so many people - including you, RW - launch into an attack on the dominance of marriage in society, I am in mixed state of fear and disgust.

What you are advocating, RW, by implying that the demands of the Terri's parents should have come above the demands of the married couple - and indeed, Terri herself - is the destruction of the "First Community Circle."

In other words, you and others like you, through your efforts to move yourselves up from your rightful place in circle 4 and 5, are thus attacking the core of the family.

Get back in your place, boy!

Here's another hint for some more cards: if you want to be in circle number one, you need to marry someone. Maybe if you understood that, by corollary you'd understand a bit more about what Michael Schiavo has been through.

I am sick and tired of people like you who make grandiose, hand-waving statements about how you cherish life, and yet instead of taking true steps towards protecting life - which in human terms is really marriage and what stems from it, family - you instead attack it, by attacking the very sanctity of marriage.

The wishes of Michael and Terri Schiavo must be held above the wishes of all other parties.

Get this through your head: marriage, and any children that result from that marriage, must be held above all else in order to assure the survival of the family, and thus the nation. If you intervene when a brain damaged woman is allowed to die, as her husband has requested and we have been told the very woman herself requested, then you are taking us further down the slippery slope to the destruction of the family. Intervene this time to violate the wishes of a brain damaged woman and her husband, and what is it next time?

Hopefully my point has sunk in a little, so let's shift gears for the conclusion: how do we know what Terri's wishes really were? Well, due to the nature of this situation, that boils down to a matter of faith, doesn't it?

RW, you have faith that a man murdered a woman he did not love in an act of pure evil.

I have faith that a man loved his wife so much that, instead of just walking away as he could have done, he endured years of howls and barbs from complete strangers in order to carry out her final wishes.

In all sincerity I ask, which would a religious man believe?
 

Mercutio

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I think it's very forward thinking of RW, attacking the sanctity of marriage like that. Yup. RWIndiana and thousands of loving homosexual couples, all trying to wear away the sanctity of matrimony.
 

RWIndiana

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Ouch, i that hurts. Heh. Actually I don't disagree with you, not entirely, but I have a hard time believing that you actually believe everything you said. Now it's going to sound like I'm on the defensive here, but sometimes I just have to explain things to people who just don't get it. Just so you know, I am NOT women's lib, so any argument against me assuming such is debunked. I in fact believe that women should have their heads veiled at all times.

Now as far as Terry Schiavo is concerned, I don't know why I keep trying to explain what I think about it, other than that it's good for humorous responses. I will say this much--if he refuses to allow her to have a Catholic burial as he well knows would be her wish (and her family's), he is the villain. Anyone who can't see it by then is an idiot. If he does allow it, then I will try to whittle my pride down enough to swallow it! :) Though that doesn't prove him innocent either.

Unfortunately for the autopsy credibility, they aren't allowing expert observation of it. I wonder why?

Oh and by the way, I'm sure your right about him loving her so much. He even loved her so much that he decided not to marry his mistress--with whom he has children--until she (Terry) died. Wow.
 

sechs

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RWIndiana said:
sometimes I just have to explain things to people who just don't get it.

Talking to yourself again? You really should stop that....
 

e_dawg

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Hmm...

While I absolutely support the right to compassionate euthanasia and the right of the husband to execute the wishes of his wife over that of the parents -- good post, i -- I do have my suspicions that Mike's intentions are not entirely on the up and up.

Granted, I don't know Mike and Terry or her parnets nearly well enough to have formulated any opinion on the matter, but then again, neither do any of us here. Indeed, i, you mentioned that you have faith that Mike "loved his wife so much that, instead of just walking away as he could have done, he endured years of howls and barbs from complete strangers in order to carry out her final wishes." Your faith is certainly reasonable and probable, but it is not necessarily the truth.

Call me a cynic if you will, but I think there might be more to Mike than just noble intentions.
 

time

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edawg said:
Call me a cynic if you will, but I think there might be more to Mike than just noble intentions.
I'd call you cavalier. You haven't the faintest idea what sort of less than noble intentions you're inferring, yet you're happy to use innuendo.

For anyone who wants uncolored information on this sorry saga, here is the report of the Guardian Ad Litem appointed in response to the governor's request:

http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/wolfson's%20report.pdf

It's a 1.9MB PDF file.
 
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