Sump pumps which don't need water cooling

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jtr1962

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We've had basement flooding problems whenever it rains since we've moved here. I gradually fixed most of the problems except on one side of the house. The issue is caused by water flowing in under the driveway, then eventually filling the window wells, and spilling over into the basement. It also enters through cracks under the windows. Generally only two rooms get water, but it's an ongoing, annoying problem, especially since it seems changing weather patterns mean we either get no rain or torrential downpours, with nothing in between. Sump pumps in the window wells avoid the issue but they need to be turned on when it rains. I invariably forget to turn them off when the rain stops, and eventually they burn out. I'm looking for a sump pump which can run continuously dry. Any suggestions?
 
A float switch isn't going to work here. That's why I asked about sump pumps which can run dry in the first place. The water level never gets high enough to trigger any kind of float. Basically, the pumps are buried about 2" in gravel. I need them to be on as soon as water hits the bottom of the pump. In practice I turn them on via a switch inside the house when it starts raining and turn them off when it stops (if I happen to be awake or around, which often isn't the case). Also, the window wells regularly get filled with debris like leaves or garbage, so any type of float wouldn't work reliably in the long run, if it worked at all.

I've always been puzzled why sump pumps need water cooling in the first place. Once they're not pumping, the impeller should be more or less freewheeling. At most, the motor should be drawing a few watts. That shouldn't cause any appreciable heating. It sounds like these things still draw tens or even hundreds of watts when they're not pumping. Why?
 
jtr1962 said:
It sounds like these things still draw tens or even hundreds of watts when they're not pumping. Why?
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My guess is that, firstly the pumps are constant voltage. To vary how much power they draw, there would need to be some type of feedback loop to vary the current incorporated that would likely significantly increase the cost of the pump and adversely affect its reliability. Your use case seems very unique so I can see why there may not be a perfect solution on the shelf for you...maybe you could get some type of water or moisture sensor to automatically turn the pump on for you. Or perhaps you could use a timer on the pump so that it will automatically shut off after about 8 hours or so?
 
Pumps are also designed for a certain amount of 'head' or ability to pump water UP. For that reason I think they have high minimum power requirements.

For instance, mine can pump the water UP 20' at a minimum of 25 gal per minute. At 5 ft. it can achieve 72 gallons per minute.
 
Could you wire up a controller that triggers the pump whenever moisture is detected vs a float trigger? You could place that trigger down under the gravel...but you may still be at risk for overheating if the stones are wet but there is no actual water.

I'm not aware of a sump pump that can run continuously without water cooling it. Something may exist but it may be expensive or custom.
 
Clocker said:
My guess is that, firstly the pumps are constant voltage. To vary how much power they draw, there would need to be some type of feedback loop to vary the current incorporated...
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Uh... The current used is a function of the mechanical resistance on the shaft of the motor + plus some near constant baseline amount of current consumed by it spinning idle.
 
Yeah brainfart.

I'm sure the pumps are designed for a constant impeller speed at a given voltage though. The relatively high min speed to achieve the performance specification of the pumps for the different levels of head is likely the reason for the pump getting hot w/o being cooled by water. The bearings have to be strong enough for heavy loads (probably to the detriment of efficiency). Either way, I doubt a suitable 'moisture sensor' will be available so it seems to me the easiest solution will be to put a timer on the pump to shut it off after a given amount of time (since remembering to turn the pump on doesn't seem to be a problem). Also, there are thermally protected pumps (like mine) that may also provide some level of longevity.
 
I highly doubt a moisture sensor would work here given that the water is often muddy. The sensor would eventually get shorted with dirt, it would think there was always water, and the pump would always be running, bringing me right back to where I started.

Thermal protection seems like the best answer if no dry-running sump pumps are available. Incidentally, I don't need much head. I'm pumping the water right out the well into the driveway where it goes into the street. That's well under a foot of head.

The timer idea may or may not work. It's hard to tell when the rain will let up enough to allow the pumps to shut off without getting flooding. Weather patterns here can charitably be called erratic. I've seen it go from bright sunshine to torrential downpour in under 15 minutes.
 
jtr1962 said:
I've always been puzzled why sump pumps need water cooling in the first place. Once they're not pumping, the impeller should be more or less freewheeling. At most, the motor should be drawing a few watts. That shouldn't cause any appreciable heating. It sounds like these things still draw tens or even hundreds of watts when they're not pumping. Why?
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I read up on it, and it appears to be the seals. Making matters worse, under no load conditions the rpm increases dramatically so the friction from the seals skyrockets (eg. 3x rpm = 9x heat in seals = cooked seals or melted impeller or even cooked motor).

I can't see why you can't just keep the moisture probes far apart. Provided they're above the bottom of a window well, it would take a solid mass of wet debris extending right across the well to false trigger it. If in doubt, gang three in series.
 
time said:
I read up on it, and it appears to be the seals. Making matters worse, under no load conditions the rpm increases dramatically so the friction from the seals skyrockets (eg. 3x rpm = 9x heat in seals = cooked seals or melted impeller or even cooked motor).

I can't see why you can't just keep the moisture probes far apart. Provided they're above the bottom of a window well, it would take a solid mass of wet debris extending right across the well to false trigger it. If in doubt, gang three in series.
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Do moisture probes like that even exist? Most ones I see are really closely spaced.

Howell said:
Also, submerged pumps are water cooled, pedestal pumps are air cooled.
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So pedestal pumps might be the way to go? I'll look into it.

Howell said:
Can you waterproof the well better so the water takes longer to get into the well?
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We already tried that. A contractor put bricks and concrete in the wells. It didn't help much. That problem appears to be that water comes in under the driveway, sits against the foundation walls, then enters through cracks and/or the window wells when they start to overflow. The pumps prevent the worst of it, when they're working anyway.
 
Honeywell 470PB

But really, I was just thinking of something like two multimeter probes, as long as you could get sufficient corrosion resistance. Most moisture probes are designed to consistently measure moisture in soil, whereas you want a flood detection system.

Fibaro Flood Sensor is an interesting device, although you'd have to put something underneath it.
 
time said:
Honeywell 470PB
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That looks like it's used to trigger an alarm on the 5821 but I'm not seeing any way to use that to turn on a sump pump. Interesting device nonetheless.

But really, I was just thinking of something like two multimeter probes, as long as you could get sufficient corrosion resistance. Most moisture probes are designed to consistently measure moisture in soil, whereas you want a flood detection system.
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I'm sure I could make some sort of circuit. This issue here is there's a fine line between getting it to reliably turn on when there's water versus being stuck on all the time due to some sort of conducting path between the probes. The further apart the probes are the more sensitive it needs to be in order to trigger.

Fibaro Flood Sensor is an interesting device, although you'd have to put something underneath it.
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There are already bricks in the window wells with gravel on top to put this on.

In truth, even with a moisture sensor I would still want to go the "failsafe" route and have a pump which doesn't burn out if I don't turn it off in time.

BTW, the basement has water today from the rain. The pumps burned out more than two years ago. I haven't bothered replacing them simply because I got tired of going through the cycle of buying new pumps, having them last a few months, then needing to replace them. I was hoping something better exists.
 
time said:
Honeywell 470PB

But really, I was just thinking of something like two multimeter probes, as long as you could get sufficient corrosion resistance. Most moisture probes are designed to consistently measure moisture in soil, whereas you want a flood detection system.

Fibaro Flood Sensor is an interesting device, although you'd have to put something underneath it.
Click to expand...

That Fibaro flood sensor looks really nice. I hadn't seen that one before.
 
You need a moister sensor and two timers. When moister is detected set the first timer to pump the water out of the well, then shut off the pump. the second timer then starts and runs for enough time to allow the pumps to cool. Then timer 2 resets the circuit allowing the pumps to run again if needed...if the probes are wet. You can even design the circuit to keep the pumps running until the probes are out of the water, then then start the #2 timer.
I have seen water probes that actually need liquid on both probes to work. But right now I am drawing a blank as to where.
Submersible pumps are totally sealed and need the water for cooling. Pedestal pumps are usually air cool and not used outdoors.
 
"We already tried that. A contractor put bricks and concrete in the wells. It didn't help much. That problem appears to be that water comes in under the driveway, sits against the foundation walls, then enters through cracks and/or the window wells when they start to overflow. The pumps prevent the worst of it, when they're working anyway."

I don't think bricks and concrete in the well would help.

My suggestion is to dig deep around the window wells, and then put in a plastic perforated drainage pipe (covered in a cloth filter to prevent soil from getting in) that can take the excess water away from the wells and foundation. Backfill the window wells with gravel. Generally when they do basement foundations these days they do drainage pipes like these, but at the footer of the basement, one on the inside and one on the outside, then back filling with gravel on the outside. The idea being to avoid having water pooling against the basement wall.
 
DrunkenBastard said:
"We already tried that. A contractor put bricks and concrete in the wells. It didn't help much. That problem appears to be that water comes in under the driveway, sits against the foundation walls, then enters through cracks and/or the window wells when they start to overflow. The pumps prevent the worst of it, when they're working anyway."

I don't think bricks and concrete in the well would help.

My suggestion is to dig deep around the window wells, and then put in a plastic perforated drainage pipe (covered in a cloth filter to prevent soil from getting in) that can take the excess water away from the wells and foundation. Backfill the window wells with gravel. Generally when they do basement foundations these days they do drainage pipes like these, but at the footer of the basement, one on the inside and one on the outside, then back filling with gravel on the outside. The idea being to avoid having water pooling against the basement wall.
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Also known as a French drain. Usually conbined with water proofing the outside wall of the foundation. He would also have to trench and lay the drainage pipe all the way to an acceptable outlet location. When it is not financially feasible to do that you can accept that the water is going to get in and direct it toward a pump pit. He is essentially doing this in the window wells, its just that his "pit" is not deep enough to prevent the water from coming over the lip of the window.

JRT, Another prevention detail that I'm sure you have already addresses is to make sure all the water hitting your roof is transmitted away from the foundation in a direction that it will not migrate back by gravity.

Can you dig the pump down another foot or two and wrap the pump in landscape fabric? Cover the pump back over with large gravel. How effevtive this will be is really dependent on how much water is coming in by way of the window still vs transmission through the wall.
 
DrunkenBastard said:
"We already tried that. A contractor put bricks and concrete in the wells. It didn't help much. That problem appears to be that water comes in under the driveway, sits against the foundation walls, then enters through cracks and/or the window wells when they start to overflow. The pumps prevent the worst of it, when they're working anyway."

I don't think bricks and concrete in the well would help.

My suggestion is to dig deep around the window wells, and then put in a plastic perforated drainage pipe (covered in a cloth filter to prevent soil from getting in) that can take the excess water away from the wells and foundation. Backfill the window wells with gravel. Generally when they do basement foundations these days they do drainage pipes like these, but at the footer of the basement, one on the inside and one on the outside, then back filling with gravel on the outside. The idea being to avoid having water pooling against the basement wall.
Click to expand...
The issue here is that the driveway is on the same side of the house as the window wells. There's little I can do here in the way of outside measures without breaking up the driveway and paying to have it reinstalled. A picture is worth a thousand words:

Driveway.jpg

The first window well is right near the hose reel. The second is further back.

Howell said:
Also known as a French drain. Usually conbined with water proofing the outside wall of the foundation. He would also have to trench and lay the drainage pipe all the way to an acceptable outlet location. When it is not financially feasible to do that you can accept that the water is going to get in and direct it toward a pump pit. He is essentially doing this in the window wells, its just that his "pit" is not deep enough to prevent the water from coming over the lip of the window.

JRT, Another prevention detail that I'm sure you have already addresses is to make sure all the water hitting your roof is transmitted away from the foundation in a direction that it will not migrate back by gravity.

Can you dig the pump down another foot or two and wrap the pump in landscape fabric? Cover the pump back over with large gravel. How effevtive this will be is really dependent on how much water is coming in by way of the window still vs transmission through the wall.
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The water from the roof goes in the gutter and then down the drain into the city sewer system. Occasionally I need to clean the gutter but it usually works that way.

I could bury the pumps a little more. When they worked, they were pretty effective keeping the basement dry. Most of the water does come in by way of the window or the part of the wall just under it. Eventually I could address the cracks in the wall from the inside (not the best way but it's the only viable one without breaking up the driveway), but that involves removing the paneling inside. It's a big job which I'm not up to right now physically or timewise.
 
OK French drains aren't going to work there. If you can go with Howells suggestion to dig the window wells deeper.

You may want to investigate a pumptec/ pumpsaver device, I have one on my well pump. Basically it will sense when a pump is starting to pump dry by detecting the drop in current the pump is drawing, and will cut power to the pump, and then attempt a restart at a predefined interval. There's some calibration involved, but you could turn the breaker on for this device when you need pumping and it should work to turn the power to the pump off as needed to avoid pump burnout. I think total cost installed by plumber was around $300 (done while the well was being hooked into the house). Given the recent severe drought we've been in ours has been well worth the expense.
 
jtr1962 said:
The issue here is that the driveway is on the same side of the house as the window wells. There's little I can do here in the way of outside measures without breaking up the driveway and paying to have it reinstalled. A picture is worth a thousand words:

View attachment 1155

The first window well is right near the hose reel. The second is further back.
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jtr, the driveway appears to be a bit concave. Does water migrate toward the middle move along that axis? Also, the ground around appears to be sloping away from that side of the house on the whole or at least flat. Where is the water permeable ground that you think is forcing the water under the driveway?
 
Howell said:
jtr, the driveway appears to be a bit concave. Does water migrate toward the middle move along that axis? Also, the ground around appears to be sloping away from that side of the house on the whole or at least flat. Where is the water permeable ground that you think is forcing the water under the driveway?
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Correct, the driveway was poured so water goes into the center, and from there flows out into the street. The problem water appears to be coming in from underneath the driveway. It probably enters via the neighbor's grass on the left side of the picture, drains into the ground, then flows towards our foundation. Our street is actually on a hill. The neighbor's house is uphill from us.

One remedy might be an underground wall on the left side of the driveway, perhaps one or two feet deep. I'm thinking here that any soil deeper than that is probably not very permeable to water. If we stop water from entering the top two feet of ground underneath the driveway, that might fix the problem.
 
It's hard to tell, but is the down spout for the roof at the rear of the house? If so, are you sure the pipe leading to the street is not broken or plugged up?
 
Bozo said:
It's hard to tell, but is the down spout for the roof at the rear of the house? If so, are you sure the pipe leading to the street is not broken or plugged up?
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It's actually located a few feet behind the hose reel. The pipe isn't clogged or broken as far as I know but I could double check next time it rains.
 
jtr1962 said:
It's actually located a few feet behind the hose reel. The pipe isn't clogged or broken as far as I know but I could double check next time it rains.
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If the street outlet is visible in the gutter, just stick a running hose in the downspout and watch how much water is coming out. Try to compare with how many gpm you're getting direct from the hose.
 
jtr1962 said:
It's actually located a few feet behind the hose reel. The pipe isn't clogged or broken as far as I know but I could double check next time it rains.
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Does the downspout empty onto the driveway? Are you sure the water from the downspout is not running back toward the house? Does the middle of the driveway have a fibrous expansion gap filler running down the axis?
 
jtr1962 said:
One remedy might be an underground wall on the left side of the driveway, perhaps one or two feet deep. I'm thinking here that any soil deeper than that is probably not very permeable to water. If we stop water from entering the top two feet of ground underneath the driveway, that might fix the problem.
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It is much more difficult and expensive to stop the flow of water then to redirect the flow of water. This might be the place for the French drain.

You may use your natural water table as a guide to the depth. It is fruitless to go below it.
 
LunarMist said:
Have you consulted with a hydraulic engineer?
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Not really. This falls more into the category of a medium nuisance than a major problem, which is why I'm looking at DIY solutions. As I said, when I have working sump pumps little or no water gets in. Without them, I might get 1/2 to 1 inch of water in a few rooms. This isn't a case of getting a foot of water in the basement every time it rains.

time said:
If the street outlet is visible in the gutter, just stick a running hose in the downspout and watch how much water is coming out. Try to compare with how many gpm you're getting direct from the hose.
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The downspout drain connects directly to the city sewer. It doesn't go to the street.


Howell said:
Does the downspout empty onto the driveway? Are you sure the water from the downspout is not running back toward the house? Does the middle of the driveway have a fibrous expansion gap filler running down the axis?
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See above. I've never seen the drain overflowing or clogged since we've lived here. My neighbor's downspout drain did get clogged.

The driveway had one of those gap fillers. It eventually rotted away but there's dirt and weeds in the crack now. It's definitely not a major source of water. In fact, it seems almost impermeable to water.

Howell said:
It is much more difficult and expensive to stop the flow of water then to redirect the flow of water. This might be the place for the French drain.

You may use your natural water table as a guide to the depth. It is fruitless to go below it.
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The water table is way below where the problem occurs. One time I had dug down in the front of the house to fix the cracks outside my workroom. I dug down at least five feet. Didn't see any water.

Unfortunately, the presence of the concrete driveway prevents any major outside remedies like French drains. In retrospect, when we had the driveway replaced 23 years ago we really should have had someone come in and address the water problem prior to laying the new driveway. My mom suggested it but my father was too cheap to pay for it.
 
jtr1962 said:
We've had basement flooding problems whenever it rains since we've moved here. I gradually fixed most of the problems except on one side of the house. The issue is caused by water flowing in under the driveway, then eventually filling the window wells, and spilling over into the basement. It also enters through cracks under the windows. Generally only two rooms get water, but it's an ongoing, annoying problem, especially since it seems changing weather patterns mean we either get no rain or torrential downpours, with nothing in between. Sump pumps in the window wells avoid the issue but they need to be turned on when it rains. I invariably forget to turn them off when the rain stops, and eventually they burn out. I'm looking for a sump pump which can run continuously dry. Any suggestions?
Click to expand...

How about just extending the window well side walls above ground level six inches or so to limit how much run off can flow into them?
 
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