Time for Heresey!
- Thread starter JSF
- Start date
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Powers that be? This site?
It comes up every few months - ways this site can attract more visitors. Truth is, we can't think of many. We get the occasional visitor with an off-the-wall question, or someone who linked through redhill.net.au, but in trying to be distinct from SR we really do try to avoid actively "advertising" there.
Short of actual advertising, the kind that costs money, no one has any spectacular ideas regardling driving additional visitors to this site. Some technology-related articles, maybe.
If you guys have any ideas, feel free and speak up.
(I've been trying to get "pr0n.storageforum.net" for months. Now Handruin is actively teasing me about it.)
It comes up every few months - ways this site can attract more visitors. Truth is, we can't think of many. We get the occasional visitor with an off-the-wall question, or someone who linked through redhill.net.au, but in trying to be distinct from SR we really do try to avoid actively "advertising" there.
Short of actual advertising, the kind that costs money, no one has any spectacular ideas regardling driving additional visitors to this site. Some technology-related articles, maybe.
If you guys have any ideas, feel free and speak up.
(I've been trying to get "pr0n.storageforum.net" for months. Now Handruin is actively teasing me about it.)
Prof.Wizard
Wannabe Storage Freak
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2002
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Dude! And I thought I was the black sheep here... :roll:Mercutio said:
Howell
Storage? I am Storage!
JSF said:
Joe, frustrated rants are in good supply around here. You are in good company.
Your primary criticisms are related to not growing as quickly as ___ and your feelings as an outsider.
It is a "Good Old Boys Club", by the way. But not exclusive. It is also a photography club, an AV club, an AA club
, a history and politics club, a car club, an environmental sensitivity club, a power-efficient lighting club and occasionally we advise each other on computing issues. If you wish to enjoin in conversation feel free. Feel free to start a thread about a topic you enjoy. Ask a pointed question. It is rare that a new thread goes for more than a few days without any response at all.Relax Joe, Novice to Expert, Newcomer to Old-hat, we are all peers here.
PS, SR is probably in better shape by not being our primary posting place. All that storage and bandwidth costs.
Mickey
Learning Storage Performance
You might want to keep those sheep away from him!Prof.Wizard said:
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
Howell said:an AA club
I rezemble that remark!
Bartender
Storage is cool
It's rezent you fool! Hey, what iz with thiz keyboard?
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
I don't know, I juzt bought thiz lot from an Oz diztributor.
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
honold said:
Good idea Honold, but what should we write about?
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
Is this thread going to turn into Answer & Question Time?
I forgot about that thread.
In all seriousness, what kind of articles would appeal to our community? Can we write something worthy enough to be linked to? Will our site have a strong enough focus to continue writing articles if it draws members?
In all seriousness, what kind of articles would appeal to our community? Can we write something worthy enough to be linked to? Will our site have a strong enough focus to continue writing articles if it draws members?
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
The standing offer I can make is to move my teaching outlines to SF.
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
Handruin said:
Aceshardware is able to go for months without a new article, we should be able to accomplish at least that.
Handruin,
I have a couple of articles that I'm sitting on that I was going to publish before I canned my site - one on setting up Linux/SAMBA as a home server for those that want to multi-boot and the pitfalls,
one on interpreting benchmarks and bias - more of a rant really, and a mini one on setting up large partitions on a W2K box. Probably old hat to most of the regulars, but bound to trap n00bs, plus a couple of others.
Mike Magee and a few others normally give me linkage. If your interested, it might generate some traffic.
I have a couple of articles that I'm sitting on that I was going to publish before I canned my site - one on setting up Linux/SAMBA as a home server for those that want to multi-boot and the pitfalls,
one on interpreting benchmarks and bias - more of a rant really, and a mini one on setting up large partitions on a W2K box. Probably old hat to most of the regulars, but bound to trap n00bs, plus a couple of others.
Mike Magee and a few others normally give me linkage. If your interested, it might generate some traffic.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Handruin said:
Musta been.
Howell
Storage? I am Storage!
Greg, when the horse starts to smell you should stop riding it.
Prof.Wizard
Wannabe Storage Freak
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2002
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- 1,460
Dude, don't translate english... :excl:flagreen said:Howell said:
When the horse starts to smell.... divorce her.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
honold said:
Next he'll be mentioning hot grits.
Howell
Storage? I am Storage!
No, it started whe he bought the SCSI drives.
The JoJo
Wannabe Storage Freak
SCSI rulezzzz.....
(Sorry about that ). Drinks for everyone!
(Sorry about that
). Drinks for everyone!
Santilli
Hairy Aussie
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2002
- Messages
- 5,285
I hate to say I told you so but:
IDE PERFORMANCE MILESTONES by Santilli
1. Scsi hits 15k and 3.9 ms three years ago.
2. IDE hits an 8 mb of cache, on a 7200 rpm drive, and it's hailed as the second coming. However, it took longer. taking about 3 years to go from the previous milestone of 2mb cache, and 7200 rpm.
Why, in ide discussion, does 7200 rpm keep coming up, :roll: :?:
3. MY really favorite part is the prices for an ide controller, compared to scsi. So, to buy a less reliable, less then half speed drive, I have to pay an outrageous amount of money, since the ide interface keeps changing, and the only way to take advantage of the the GREAT IDE speed increases
:roll: is to buy a current controller card.
Meanwhile, storagereview is writing about the fantastic increase in the new ide drives, and trying to write a test that justifies such statements, by making a test the drive can do well on...
(In the background, I hear Splashe's 100 some odd computers running
twin cheetahs, in Raid 0 24/7, and they continue to purr along, as he spends his IT budget on better things then hardrives, warrantied to last a year, on an inferior interface....
I, meanwhile, am hired by a school district with tons of failed computers.
To furnish my classroom, I end up replacing failed ide drives,
and get the computers up and running.
Odd, the scsi based macs just keep on running,....funny how that works, and the drives in those are sometimes 12 years old.
More later...
IDE PERFORMANCE MILESTONES by Santilli
1. Scsi hits 15k and 3.9 ms three years ago.
2. IDE hits an 8 mb of cache, on a 7200 rpm drive, and it's hailed as the second coming. However, it took longer. taking about 3 years to go from the previous milestone of 2mb cache, and 7200 rpm.
Why, in ide discussion, does 7200 rpm keep coming up, :roll: :?:
3. MY really favorite part is the prices for an ide controller, compared to scsi. So, to buy a less reliable, less then half speed drive, I have to pay an outrageous amount of money, since the ide interface keeps changing, and the only way to take advantage of the the GREAT IDE speed increases
:roll: is to buy a current controller card.
Meanwhile, storagereview is writing about the fantastic increase in the new ide drives, and trying to write a test that justifies such statements, by making a test the drive can do well on...
(In the background, I hear Splashe's 100 some odd computers running
twin cheetahs, in Raid 0 24/7, and they continue to purr along, as he spends his IT budget on better things then hardrives, warrantied to last a year, on an inferior interface....
I, meanwhile, am hired by a school district with tons of failed computers.
To furnish my classroom, I end up replacing failed ide drives,
and get the computers up and running.
Odd, the scsi based macs just keep on running,....funny how that works, and the drives in those are sometimes 12 years old.
More later...
yeah, screw those real-world benchmarks! as we all know, the bulk of a user's experience is copying massive files back and forth. so, str is all that matters, right? :roll:
on a loaded server lengthy queue depths and and str (not to mention the nice, high mtbf ratings) are going to make a difference. on a desktop, it's not.
on a loaded server lengthy queue depths and and str (not to mention the nice, high mtbf ratings) are going to make a difference. on a desktop, it's not.
Groltz
My demeaning user rank is
SSD rulezzzz.....
Drinks for everyone! But I'll have to pay with IOU's for the time being. :roll:
Drinks for everyone! But I'll have to pay with IOU's for the time being. :roll:
Santilli
Hairy Aussie
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2002
- Messages
- 5,285
Access time, cache, algorithims, all that neat stuff.
I just like everything about scsi but the price, and the fact that it's expensive since royalties are paid to Intel, but the world isn't perfect.
I guess my real specific liking is for Seagate's Cheetahs. Haven't found one I didn't like...
s
I just like everything about scsi but the price, and the fact that it's expensive since royalties are paid to Intel, but the world isn't perfect.
I guess my real specific liking is for Seagate's Cheetahs. Haven't found one I didn't like...
s
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Gotta concur with Greg and honold:
The desktop lives and dies on low access times. High STRs are basically meaningless. How often are you loading 20MB in a sustained burst from a disk drive? How often are you seeking around to access DLLs?
I'd be a die hard SCSI guy in a heartbeat, except that my dominating storage need is for capacity, the one place where SCSI falls down flat.
The desktop lives and dies on low access times. High STRs are basically meaningless. How often are you loading 20MB in a sustained burst from a disk drive? How often are you seeking around to access DLLs?
I'd be a die hard SCSI guy in a heartbeat, except that my dominating storage need is for capacity, the one place where SCSI falls down flat.
Bartender
Storage is cool
Groltz said:
No worries Groltz, your money isn't necessary here anyway.
Prof.Wizard
Wannabe Storage Freak
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2002
- Messages
- 1,460
Gee, SCSI attack:
OK guys, what about:
1) overall costs (which include the SCSI adapter)?
2) capacitites (which are still lame for the 15K HDDs)?
I'm not arguing about SCSI-IDE here, but they are supposed to be addressed to different customers. There is no point in a SCSI vs IDE discussion...
OK guys, what about:
1) overall costs (which include the SCSI adapter)?
2) capacitites (which are still lame for the 15K HDDs)?
I'm not arguing about SCSI-IDE here, but they are supposed to be addressed to different customers. There is no point in a SCSI vs IDE discussion...
Fushigi
Storage Is My Life
To simulate SCSI performance in a non-SCSI environment, you would best achieve it by adding additional RAM to the system. It's not a perfect wash but the caching capability provided by the RAM would help a lot (and is about the only thing you can do). The cost of that RAM would likely cancel the cost of the SCSI adapter. Now you're left with just the price premium for the drive. I would argue that, based on warranties and the cost to replace a failed drive, you would go through two almost-3yr-warranty ATA units for each 5 year warranty SCSI unit and thus potentially eliminate the ATA price advantage as well.
Capacities by and large don't matter for the non-hardcore, non-server system. A 36GB SCSI drive will hold any modern OS and still provide plenty of room for data files created with Office or an equivalent, including a fair amount of downloaded music. Even an 18GB drive is enough for the average box. Compare that to a 40GB ATA drive and there's no significant difference. There are, BTW, 147GB 10K SCSI drives and 73GB 15K drives. (While I have about 180GB online, my wife's PC has 36 and every other machine I 'support' has 20 or less)
For the non-average system, the comparisons don't matter. These systems are speced and purchased based on the need and budget of the purchaser. Most business servers will, at a minimum, use a (mirrored) SCSI boot drive. Database/email servers need the capabilities that only SCSI drives currently offer. For file servers, it depends on the workload. Most hobbyist/enthusiasts will get the best they can afford (or can put on plastic).
For the most part I don't care to argue SCSI vs. IDE. To generalize: SCSI = wonderful boot drives but isn't necessary for mass storage unless the machine is in a multi-user environment. IDE = good mass storage and decent boot. SCSI has typically held a large advantage when it comes to seek time and, up until recently, in STR. Modern IDE drives meet/surpass SCSI STRs but still lag in the seek department. So buy what fits your needs, budget, and desires. I'm currently doing the SCSI boot + IDE mass storage route. Both drives are plenty fast for my simplistic needs, but I can afford them so why not?
- Fushigi
Capacities by and large don't matter for the non-hardcore, non-server system. A 36GB SCSI drive will hold any modern OS and still provide plenty of room for data files created with Office or an equivalent, including a fair amount of downloaded music. Even an 18GB drive is enough for the average box. Compare that to a 40GB ATA drive and there's no significant difference. There are, BTW, 147GB 10K SCSI drives and 73GB 15K drives. (While I have about 180GB online, my wife's PC has 36 and every other machine I 'support' has 20 or less)
For the non-average system, the comparisons don't matter. These systems are speced and purchased based on the need and budget of the purchaser. Most business servers will, at a minimum, use a (mirrored) SCSI boot drive. Database/email servers need the capabilities that only SCSI drives currently offer. For file servers, it depends on the workload. Most hobbyist/enthusiasts will get the best they can afford (or can put on plastic).
For the most part I don't care to argue SCSI vs. IDE. To generalize: SCSI = wonderful boot drives but isn't necessary for mass storage unless the machine is in a multi-user environment. IDE = good mass storage and decent boot. SCSI has typically held a large advantage when it comes to seek time and, up until recently, in STR. Modern IDE drives meet/surpass SCSI STRs but still lag in the seek department. So buy what fits your needs, budget, and desires. I'm currently doing the SCSI boot + IDE mass storage route. Both drives are plenty fast for my simplistic needs, but I can afford them so why not?
- Fushigi
Santilli
Hairy Aussie
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2002
- Messages
- 5,285
I've never understood the need for huge storage these days, when you can burn CD's for data, and DVD's for data, for 50 cents or less, for 600 MB.
Seems like it's been neglected, but I suspect server type caching algorithims, and the large caches on cheetahs, function better in a random access enviornment like a desktop machine.
Overall I tend to agree that RAM has made a huge difference, along with processors. Also, the faster all the other components gets, the less noticeable the ide drive slowness is.
Currently we have two 512 mb ram systems, with Quantum LM's, 20-30 gigs, and 400-450 MHZ P3 processors. The speed, or lack their of, is more noticeable on these machines then, say a 1.7 ghz Pentium system, but, it is still the limiting factor in the system.
Also neglected is the quality of the processors on Raid cards, their cache, and their caching algorithms.
Suffice to say the ATTO cards seem to take full advantage of the 16mb of drive cache, and the dual processors seem to be very high quality, compared to any, except perhaps 3 wares, ide controllers.
I'm also certain that recalls are far less with Granite Digital cables, vs. your average ide cable.
Hopefully the new standards, sata, etc. will diminish the performance gaps, and the costs...
s
Seems like it's been neglected, but I suspect server type caching algorithims, and the large caches on cheetahs, function better in a random access enviornment like a desktop machine.
Overall I tend to agree that RAM has made a huge difference, along with processors. Also, the faster all the other components gets, the less noticeable the ide drive slowness is.
Currently we have two 512 mb ram systems, with Quantum LM's, 20-30 gigs, and 400-450 MHZ P3 processors. The speed, or lack their of, is more noticeable on these machines then, say a 1.7 ghz Pentium system, but, it is still the limiting factor in the system.
Also neglected is the quality of the processors on Raid cards, their cache, and their caching algorithms.
Suffice to say the ATTO cards seem to take full advantage of the 16mb of drive cache, and the dual processors seem to be very high quality, compared to any, except perhaps 3 wares, ide controllers.
I'm also certain that recalls are far less with Granite Digital cables, vs. your average ide cable.
Hopefully the new standards, sata, etc. will diminish the performance gaps, and the costs...
s
Prof.Wizard
Wannabe Storage Freak
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2002
- Messages
- 1,460
Santilli said:
Next time you go for a picnic in the mountain with your family, friends and your dogs... rent a Ferrari!
this is my analogy for going SCSI if what you really need, is quietness and capacity
Santilli, there is a great need for big storage. CDs and DVDs were cool and indeed useful until hard disks surpassed them in capacities by 10x and more times. I personally hate them, and only burn CDs when I need portability or hear the odd mp3 in my car. Many of us have Gigabytes of movies, games, porn, TV shows, progies, or simple documents and office-type files. I don't want to move them in CDs, I have so many it's just totally not plausible.
Last, you are a lawyer in the United States. Successful or less, I guess you're not into many financial difficulties to buy whatever you like in the for-personal-use IT world. I envy you, but I can't do the same. I have to stick with IDE. I wish I had 2 15K Cheetahs RAIDing 0 in my box, but I have to stick with my IDE drives...