Tyan S2460 Troubles

[Buck]

About two months ago, I put together another new workstation for me.

Tyan S2460
Athlon MP 1600+
CoolerMaster Heatsinks & Fans
Asus V6800 (GeForce256 32MB DDR)
512 MB DDR RAM
WD102BA & WD400BB
Enermax 410w PS
Case Fans
Windows XP Professional

To this day, it will still freeze on me. I've updated to all of the latest drivers. I've swapped out the RAM. I'm wondering if there is a compatability issue between the board and my old GeForce card? Any thoughts? I was wondering if going to a Matrox G550 would help solve that problem, if it is video. It is a shame that I have these issues on such an expensive system and cheap dual PIII system runs flawlessly.

BR

 

[Tannin]

You just have to start swapping stuff out, Buck. One bit at a time. Tedious, but it's the only way to sort the hard ones.

Start with the RAM. (You already did that.)

Next, take a spare hard drive and do a complete clean install of your OS. (Leave your actual drive disconnected till you have determined if the problem is hardware or software.)

After that, gut feel has to guide you. And also the little matter of how difficult it is to find spare bits and plug them in.

Guess I'd go in this order:

PSU. Also, try doing something to reduce the drain on the PSU you have: disconnect the CD drives, use an old, low-power video card (a 1MB PCI will do), single CPU only, stuff like that.

Video card. Don't think that just swapping the video card will be a proper test! You need to swap to a different brand of card (i.e., not Nvidia-based) and use your clean install drive to test with, because Nvidia drivers can still cause you problems even after you think you have unistalled them and swapped out the card. (Other brands too, I assume.) Get hold of some older Detonator drivers from back when they used to come as a Zip file. The newer Dets can be problematic.

Then the big one: motherboard. My guess is that the board is your real problem, but I don't suggest testing that first because they are both time-consuming and expensive things to change.

Then the other obvious suspect. Remove XP and, using your trusty spare hard drive, install another OS, one that you are very familiar with. I'd use 98SE, but whatever you have handy. If it still locks up under SE with no device drivers loaded and with a really plain vanilla software install - no TSRs, no unusual stuff, no anti-virus, no Norton crap, then it has to be hardware.

Now the odd-bod things: sound card, network card, optical drives, CPUs, every single component, right down to removing it all from the case and running it on the testbench mother-naked if you have to. You can get some really weird, hard to spot stuff happening via eddy currents sometimes - I had one just yesterday: a Celeron 300 that refused to boot with a floppy drive plugged in, no matter what I did. On a hunch, I changed the case over (keeping the same PSU and all other components) and that fixed it. The original case was cheap but OK, and the board was mounted correctly - I triple checked. Makes no sense - but show me the law that says computers have to make sense.

Sound like it will take days and days to track down in the worst case?

Yup.

Welcome to the stupidest damn way to make a living I ever heard of.

 

[Buck]

Believe me Tannin, I'd love to do all that. The problem is that I'm dealing with WindowsXP. I've already reached the limit of installations with this copy. I have to call Microsoft for a special key to install it again. I've gone through 5 installations because it was originally so buggy. Putting in the spare parts is no problem, I have plenty of inventory, I just don't want to use new parts.

I did try a new PSU. That was able to stabilize a bit. Getting the correct amperage on the 3.3v and 5v line help a lot.

I tried Windows2000, and the problems was worse.

I tried a different drive, that didn't help.

I swapped out the NIC to a different brand, that didn't help.

I also went from an Adtronics case to a InWin case, problem wasn't solved (that is also when I purchased a new PSU).

I also switched from a Sony 50X CD-ROM, to a Plextor 16x10x40x Writer. That didn't help. I've also tried a Creative Labs 52x, no deal.

I also changed the heatsinks and fans because the original copper Vantec units were terribly loud, even causing an annoying vibration in the original case. With the new CoolerMaster units, peace is restored and the temperatures remain just as low.

I've only used one Sound Card, but it was not part of the original installation. The problem existed days before the Sound Card was installed.

The only components that have not been swapped are the CPU's, Motherboard, and Video Card. The Video Card is the next least expensive item for me to swap. When I have time...

BR

PS: Thanks for your methodical reply. At least it gave the a chance to answer all of the pertinent questions.

PPS: This is an expensive system.

 

[Mercutio]

Ten to one it's the power supply.

And I say that will full knowledge of Buck's embrace of the goat-raping horror that is nvidia. The other parts of the system inspire confidence - bad motherboards, in particular, usually do things more annoying than just freezing every so often.

 

[Buck]

Ten to one it's the power supply.

And I say that will full knowledge of Buck's embrace of the goat-raping horror that is nvidia. The other parts of the system inspire confidence - bad motherboards, in particular, usually do things more annoying than just freezing every so often.

Replace the power supply again? I would much rather blame this issue on nVidia. Alas, I'll see what I can put together.

BR

 

[Pradeep]

What NIC were/are you using? Also, are you using registered DDR?

 

[Buck]

What NIC were/are you using? Also, are you using registered DDR?

Yes on the memory, it is Registered ECC.

The old NIC was 3COM the new NIC is LinkSys.

BR

 

[Tannin]

Believe me Tannin, I'd love to (follow standard proceedure to troubleshoot my system in the only possible way). The problem is that I'm dealing with WindowsXP. I've already reached the limit of installations

This is the most appalling inditement of that ludicrous "product activation" scheme I have ever heard. Why, why why do you voluntarily, of your own free will put up with that incredible arrogance? Where are your W2k CDs?

I hadn't thought of that aspect of XP till you mentioned it just now, and the feeling of dread I have now that I think about the inevitable endless, mindless years of struggling with XP product activation in a busy computer workshop that I am facing .... Gods!

The sooner someone shoots that bastard Gates and grinds the remains up into hamburger the better.

Three to one it's the motherboard.

 

[Buck]

So much ridiculous work!

My downfall has been an appreciation for the new look of XP.

Tannin, have you tried Athlon MP CPUs on Soltek SL-75DRV2 boards?

BR

 

[Tannin]

No Buck. But I've used a million XPs on them, of course. Isn't an MP just an XP with multiple CPU certification?

 

[Sol]

I hate to sound like a raving software pirate (well I hate to sound like I'm raving anyway). But perhaps you should try cracking XP. Sure you probably wouldn't have access to Microsofts tech support (that is assuming they ever found out, and why would they). But is that really a bad thing anyway? All the windows update stuff still works and you still use your own product keyso all this future updates may lock out pirate key stuff wouldn't apply. Frankly I can't see any downside at all, unless you happento be some sort of sick-o who's really just after an excuse to call Bill Gates everythime he (or she as not all sick-os are male I suppose) wan'ts to wipe his/her bum.
This said I actually have no idea how to do this. I assume however that there would be many tutorials on the net for the searching. I am fairly cirtain that it is quite a simple procedure which, at worst, may require making a copy of the XP CD with a crack and reinstalling. Even so since you are allowed one backup it would still be entirly legal, if thats the sort of thing that worries you.

and Tanin, if the thought of the XP activation procedure is an issue I can easily furnish you with a copy of XP which does not suffer from that fate, although it would have to be professional.

I'd have to agree that I also think it would be the power supply, Enermax are fairly reputable but they are a bit cheap as far as I could tell, and they look very cool so the odds of them being able to cope with the stress of a duel CPU system too is pretty slim. Not a very scientific perspective I know.

 

[Buck]

Thanks for your input.

My next step has been to swap out the GeForce256 Video Card (which was not on Tyan's HCL) and dropped in an Inno3D Tornado GeForce2 MX-400 64MB. The problem seems to have greatly lessened within Windows.

However, the issue (which I don't think I previously described, shame on me) of the system not being able to restart properly has continued. For example, I'll install an update for WindowsXP and am asked to restart the system. I'll do such, but during the reboot, all 12v devices whir and spin like usual, but there is no video, and no BIOS beep. I'll have to proceed by powering the PS down with the onboard-PS switch. It usually takes another 10 minutes of power-down time before the system powers up and boots up properly. Similarly, if I say "NO" to the dialogue box asking to restart the system and then do a "Shut-down" in Windows, the same thing will happen.

So, I've been looking at the AOpen FSP350-60BT PS as an option, and or RMAing the motherboard.

BR

 

[Pradeep]

I've had no problems with my 2460 and a Geforce2MX card, and presently an ATI Radeon 7500 AIW. I would say that it's either the PSU or the mobo from that description. Perhaps the last resort before sending it away would be to try upgrading to the latest BIOS (1.04)?

 

[Tannin]

That shut-down and restart problem suggests AGP problems, Buck. Best diagnosis is an ISA video card. Failing that, a PCI one - but ISA is best. If you can shut down and restart properly then, it's time to look at your main board. Other main candidate is PSU, but mainboard is the prime suspect.

 

[Pradeep]

Did you install the drivers off the CD? If I recall there was an AGP patch included in there somewhere.

Oh and those AOpen power supplies are fantastic, can't recommend them highly enough.

 

[Tannin]

Oh, Sol, much as it would be a clear and obvious benefit to our customers to spare them from that perversion MS call PA, I think that it would place us in breach of the licencing agreement. Instead, we do our best to persuade people to buy something else instead. I'm thinking about putting a surcharge on XP preinstallations. XP is costing us a lot of time, and time is money, after all.

 

[Buck]

Did you install the drivers off the CD? If I recall there was an AGP patch included in there somewhere.

Oh and those AOpen power supplies are fantastic, can't recommend them highly enough.

Yes, the AGP patch was applied. Thank you for the thumbs-up on the PS.

BR

 

[Adcadet]

could it be the memory? Are you by chance using Crucial ECC DDR? I have had problems with periodic problems with Crucial RAM. You might want to see about getting some Corsair DDR to try.

 

[Buck]

could it be the memory? Are you by chance using Crucial ECC DDR? I have had problems with periodic problems with Crucial RAM. You might want to see about getting some Corsair DDR to try.

Thanks for the heads-up Adcadet, but I'm using Corsair memory (I rarely buy Crucial) and I've already swapped the memory which resulted in no change.

BR

 

[Drakantus]

Enermax 410w PS

BR

I would replace this with a 550watt supply.

Insanity? Overkill?

Maybe, but perhaps not.

I had very similiar problem. Had random lockups in any OS> It could run for days in windows, but anything intensive like 3d games woul lock up after 15-30 minutes. Tested every single part, swapped video card, NIC, sound card, CPU's, even swapped to a different S2460. I thought the whole time that there was no way my 430Watt enermax was the issue, after all I originally booted okay with a mere 330watt. Well, I was wrong. $180 later, with a 550watt supply, everything was rock solid.

Yes, it was a lot to pay for a power supply.

It was worth every penny.

 

[time]

Change the PS before you muck about sending back the motherboard. Enermax power supplies have a mixed reputation.

There is no such doubt about Aopen, but be aware that dual Athlon setups are pushing the envelope. Skallas has often had something to say about this on SR.

I notice that AMD is pushing a new breed of power supplies for dual setups, none of which we can probably actually buy. Never mind the quoted rating on possible replacements, check out AMD's test results.

 

[Buck]

This is what has transpired thus far:
Put Original System Together...
Tyan S2460
Dual Athlon MP 1600+
Vantec Heatsinks & Fans
Asus V6800 (GeForce256 32MB DDR)
1000 MB DDR RAM
WD102BA
Plextor CDR-W
Addtronics Case W8500 w/400 W PSU
80mm Case Fans
Windows XP Professional

... trouble began during installation, namely dark-blue screens of death. I tried Windows 2000, resulting in regular blue screens of death, so I switched back to XP. My first suspect item was the memory. I initially dropped in 1GB of ECC memory and thought that the BIOS settings were not correct for this type of RAM, after a few adjustments and finally reducing my RAM down to 1 stick (256 MB), Windows was able to get past dark blue-screens.

Second suspect item was the PSU, since it was designed for WATX systems (i840 chipset). At the same time, the case was amplifying the vibrations from the 7,800-rpm 60mm fans on the CPU heatsinks, resulting in an annoying noise. So, I decided for a new case and PSU. I purchased an In-Win Case and a 410 Watt Enermax PSU (with the appropriate 3.3 & 5 volt fulfillments).

The installation went smoothly except for some network issues, so I decided to replace the 3COM card with a LinkSys. After the installation, I regularly had problems with the system freezing, and applications coming up with errors, reporting that they must close. That is ok; no ‘new’ drivers were installed yet, so I installed the Tyan drivers and the recommended XP updates (all of which was not easy, because XP continued to freeze and shut down applications (like IE), which in turn made downloading updates difficult). After all of the drivers were installed, things began to mellow out, so I installed my Turtle Beach sound card. Windows continued to show signs of instability; IE and Explorer would report errors and required that they be closed. On occasion, I would have to reboot, but during POST there would be no video. I would wait a bit, and things would fire back up.

I also figured it was time to increase my RAM count, since I wanted more than 256 MB. So, I stuck in 3 more sticks for a total of 1 GB. After I fired the system up, Windows dark blue-screened and was unable to recover. I halved my RAM count and reinstalled Windows XP. Windows XP installed, and the above previously mentioned instability existed, but I now had 512 MB of RAM.

Interim to my Windows issue was the loud noise that my 60mm fans were creating. It is true that the new case minimized the vibrations, but the annoying noise persisted. So, I decided to bring the system to my workshop and make two changes: (A) New heatsinks & fans (B) New video card. As was alluded to by others, part of my Windows issues could be related to the AGP bus. So, I put in my usual Coolermaster DP5 6I31 C-A1 heatsinks and their accompanying fans. Additionally, I replaced my Asus V6800 video card with an Inno3D Tornado GeForce2 MX-400 card. Since the case was open, I also put in a WD400BB disk drive. I closed everything up, fired up the machine, and the quiet hum of my new fans was beautiful.

Back at home (about 10 feet from the shop), I plugged everything back in, reinstalled the nVidia drivers and off I went. For the most part, Windows XP operated well, but there were still stability issues. If the machine was left alone for some time, it would freeze. If I would reboot, POST would not be successful for the first few tries. I ran this way for about two weeks (I don’t use this system that often, maybe a couple hours every other day). Finally, I decided, lets go into the BIOS (we hadn’t done this since our original installation) and I was shocked. The hardware monitor read:
CPU1: 70 degrees Celsius
CPU1 Fan: 0 rpm
CPU2: 41 degrees Celsius
CPU2 Fan: 4,800 rpm

Hoolie Doolie! Shutdown, open case, check fan, fan header disconnected, plugged it back in . . . end of story. No more problems.

Those new AMD Athlon MP processors are quite resilient to heat, and thankfully, my motherboard would not let me operate above certain temperatures. That is why a reboot wouldn’t always work (CPU1 too hot), and that is why Windows would freeze (CPU1 again, too hot).

So, I ended up having two issues:

1. Incompatible nVidia video card
2. Incompetence when replacing the card

Thanks for all of your input, sometimes you forget whether you checked all steps, and using others as a sounding board works for me.

System upon completion:
Tyan S2460
Dual Athlon MP 1600+
CoolerMaster DP5 6I31 C-A1 Heatsinks and fans
Inno Tornado (GeForce MX-2 400 64MB DDR)
Turtle Beach sound card
512 MB DDR RAM
WD102BA
WD400BB
Plextor CDR-W
Creative 52x CD-ROM
In-Win Case – Enermax PSU
80mm Case Fans
Windows XP Professional

BR