Video card for mid-range business systems

[Tea]

Video cards for family and gaming systems are easy right now: generic 64MB TNT M64 at the low end, generic 64MB Gforce II MX-400 in the mainstream, 128MB Sparkle Gforce III Ti200 in the upper mid-range, Leadtek Ti 4200s and 4600s at the high end. I have not the slightest intention of trusting my good name to anything that uses ATI drivers anytime this year (early next year I'll consider them again, ask for opinions on stability and compatibility, decide if they have a good enough reliability record yet), and I am very happy with the Nvidia-based cards we use. Plug-in, work. No fuss, no bother.

But we also make business systems. For the most part, an M64 or something similar is just fine. Most of these machines run nothing bar Word and Excel on a stock-standard 17 inch monitor at 800 x 600 or 1024 x 768. But now and then we get a call for a higher-end non-games machine. It might do a little CAD, some Photoshop, or run a drafting package, and probably ships with a 19 inch monitor (possbly an entry-level Delta, possibly a really nice Mitsubishi). In the past, we have used the Matrox G450s for these jobs, but the G450 is getting rather old now and still rather dear. Also, their distribution in Australia is sub-ideal: it's difficult to source Matrox cards in small quantities without paying ridiculous prices and it's just not worth buying 5 pcs of something that we sell in such small volume.

So what's the go for non-gaming systems where graphics are important? I'm not talking about high-end stuff here, just something that adds a touch of class to a machine that will wind up running business graphics apps. G550? Gforce III? Or something different? The practical price range, for the most part, is around $100 to $200 US. Decent picture quality, reasonable performance, price that won't scare the horses.

 

[Mercutio]

I know you don't want to hear it. Too bad. ATI 7x00. I like "actual ATI" better than the OEM stuff, but at $40-ish for a 64MB, DDR Radeon 7200, with 3dfx-good 2D quality and 3D that's up to snuff for everything that's out right now, they're a marvelous buy.

I think part of my beef with nvidia is that they're too hot in general. ATI cards seem less prone to that problem.

If not ATI, Matrox, if you can find them at a decent price. I don't find SiS's current offerings acceptable, and anything else that isn't nvidia at this point is "legacy".

 

[Buck]

I would recommend the MSI GeForce4 MX-440T or MS-8866. I sell this retail card for under US$90.00. Bandwidth is reasonable at 6.4GB and can handle a resolution of 1600x1200 at 85Hz. It has worked exceptionally well for the customer's you outlined Tannin. You can also include those who play a few games like AOEII. MSI has all of their GeForce4 cards running at 350Mhz. However, I would avoid the GeForce4 MX-420, it is an under performer. If you want, the GeForce4 MX-440 also has a AGP 8x version, but the cost is more (about $20.00 more).

 

[Bozo]

Been installing ATI Radeon 7500s without any problems. Runs on everything from NT4 to .NET.

Bozo

 

[time]

With the latest pricing, I don't think it's worth continuing with the MX400, unless you use it to replace the M64. You can get Sparkle MX440 for around US$50 now, and it's a much better solution.

I can't really comment on business graphics, but if display quality is the issue I wouldn't be using cheap nVidia stuff for that application.

 

[Stereodude]

Ti4200's are running around $100 in the states. That's a low end card IMHO.

Stereodude

 

[Mercutio]

I'll say it again, and in all seriousness: nvidia's cards run hot. Many need active cooling and are still pretty warm. "Hot" is not a desireable quality in a business system, and I don't see any advantage to 'l33t Quake framerates for word and excel users.

I'll admit I'm not the person most qualified to judge nvidia cards. The newest nvidia card I've used is a Geforce2 GTS (yes, I've completely avoided everything newer), but last I checked, 2D quality wasn't even close to 3dfx or ATI or (most especially) Matrox. If they've kicked up a notch, good, maybe they're on S3 or SiS level, but from what I gather they still lag where it counts for business use.

If only Matrox still made a product in the same category as their old G100 line...

 

[blakerwry]

I have a matrox millenium, a matrox g400 dual head, an ATI rage IIc, TNT 2 M64, and a Leadtek geforce 3 ti 200

The geforce 3 has better image quality than all of them. The TNT2 is next, with the G400 just slightly behind and the ATI is last. I have not run the millenium above 800x600 so I don't have a basis for comparison.


The G400 runs EXTREMELY hot, so hot i put a fan on it becasue I was worried it might melt... while the TNT2 runs just warm to the touch without a fan.

All geforce3's come with a fan and my leadtek's is still going strong.

At a LAN party I recently attended, my display was the sharpest of anyones. Most the people there were running Nvidia stuff, some ATI.

As far as i'm concerned a well built Nvidia card looks great. Better than ATI and better than Matrox. However, I also think there is a lot of variance between manufacturers of Nvidia's products. Some manufacturers simply suck while others shine.

If your TNT's are sharp at high resoluitions, I'd say to sell them. They can handle upto 1600x1200 @ 100 hz, which is probably more than most monitors support.

 

[Mercutio]

The sky is blue in my world, blakerwry. What color is it in yours?

G400s don't get anything like hot. Warm, maybe, as in "a couple degrees over air temperature", but also not "I dare you to touch it after four hours of Max Payne" hot like nvidia cards manage.

Image quality is subjective and depends on your monitor as much as anything else. If a TNT-anything looks good to you, though, I think you're due for an eye exam.

 

[blakerwry]

Trust me, my g400 dual head gets too hot to touch. My TNT2 M64 is barely warm to the touch after hours of quake 3... same computer, same everything... Infact, I find that alot of cards are actually hot just running the desktop than playing a 3D game.

 

[blakerwry]

*hotter running the desktop than if playing a 3D game.

 

[blakerwry]

But like I said, Nvidia producers vary a great deal. So, I suggest Tannin test the cards out. If he finds them acceptable, then he should sell them.

This is my opinion and I will be happy to know that you paid twice as much for your matrox than I did for my TNT and I ended up with the better product.

 

[Cliptin]

I was under the impression (from reading) that NV cards did not match any other cards with regards to image quality until the Gf4 series and at this point the issue was rendered moot. IIRC, they accomplished this by using an external DAC from IBM(or something like that).

 

[blakerwry]

There was alot of problems with the geforce and geforce 2 MX series because many manufacturers used sub par (below what nvidia recommended) components in their designs... this was to cut corners on a low-end product obviously.


When you buy Matrox, you know it was built by matrox, a good manufacturer; When you buy ATI, you know it was made by ATI... as far as I know their components are good quality.

But, when you buy Nvidia you have no idea what you're getting unless you have bought from that specific manufacturer before.

You may end up with something of superb quality or you may get a piece of junk. Those are the breaks and that is one reason why people shouldn't shop on price alone if they want quality components in their PC.

 

[Mercutio]

I've never seen an nvidia product that I would say is of high enough quality that I'd want it in my own PC. I had a VisionTek Geforce 1, and I thought its display was lousy. I had a Chaintech Geforce 2 MX, and it wasn't any better. I had a Chaintech Geforce 2 GTS, and it was worst of all.
I've worked with nvidia cards from Hercules, Jaton, Chaintech, Asus, LeadTek, Creative, Diamond, Gainward, Visiontek and eVGA. And Dell, whatever brand Dell uses.

My informed opinion of cards from Riva128 to the GF2 GTS is that the 2D quality is sub-par and that the cards get a great deal warmer than anything else on the market.

 

[honold]

the bad 2d quality was well-documented, and was corrected by a number of vendors (most notably leadtek) in the geforce3 line. starting with the geforce4 line, nvidia mandates quality control on 2d and they all look 'perfect' (indistinguishable from a g550 or radeon 8500)

 

[Mercutio]

A look at the cooling system on the NV30 reference board:

The Tom's hardware article also says that this heat pipe system was audible over that of an already noisy computer, and that the air coming out the back was "hot to the touch".

And suddenly, the largish fan on a Radeon 9700 looks downright appealing...

 

[Buck]

Any URL? Thanks.

 

[Mercutio]

I'll like to Anand's "chock-full-o-ads" preview rather than Tom's, but a quick visit to either site will get you to a preview of some kind.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1749

 

[Fushigi]

And suddenly, the largish fan on a Radeon 9700 looks downright appealing...

And the availability of the Radeon 9700 AIW is making me tempted.

Must .... resist .... urge .... to .... upgrade!

- Fushigi

 

[Mercutio]

I bought one this weekend.

 

[Buck]

I bought one this weekend.

Thank you for the link.

 

[Fushigi]

I bought one this weekend.

And? Is it just a good card or does it knock your socks off?

- Fushigi

 

[blakerwry]

A look at the cooling system on the NV30 reference board:

The Tom's hardware article also says that this heat pipe system was audible over that of an already noisy computer, and that the air coming out the back was "hot to the touch".

And suddenly, the largish fan on a Radeon 9700 looks downright appealing...

And only ~40% faster than the 9700.....

 

[Pradeep]

I bought one this weekend.

Oooh you lucky bastard. How's the twin TV tuners working? Can you capture two shows at once without dropping frames? Drools .......

 

[Pradeep]

A look at the cooling system on the NV30 reference board:

The Tom's hardware article also says that this heat pipe system was audible over that of an already noisy computer, and that the air coming out the back was "hot to the touch".

And suddenly, the largish fan on a Radeon 9700 looks downright appealing...

And only ~40% faster than the 9700.....

But you have to wait till February and pay $400-$500. We shall have to see what's good value at the time of availability.

 

[Mercutio]

AIW9700: I can watch a movie on on VCR and cap off another (@640x480 MPEG1, 5000kbps) without dropping appreciable numbers of frames on an XP2100. I still can't cap and do anything particularly interactive at the same time (e.g. I'll drop frames if I start a game of Freecell). It was an impulse buy for me. I haven't decided if I'll keep it or sell it, though. It makes a little bit more noise than my 8500DV - which does everything I need - and I don't really need the 3D features. Mostly I just wanted to see how the new Rage Theater 200 chip compared to the old Rage Theater. Output is a bit sharper on screen, especially from NTSC sources. I don't know if that's something the card is doing or the difference between the monitors I'm using for output.

In one year I've gone from an ATI Rage VIVO to a AIW7500 to an 8500DV to the monster. ATI has got to quit releasing new AIW cards.

Fushigi, are you still selling SVHS VCRs?

 

[Pradeep]

Doesn't the 9700 AIW have hardware mpeg2 capture?

 

[Mercutio]

Yes, but I don't want to use it, since ATI's MPEG2 files don't open up in FlaskMPEG or in XMPEG, or anything else I've tried.

I haven't tried it with the 9700, though. Maybe it's different now.

 

[Pradeep]

I have the same probs with the AIW7500. Though the MPEG2 files playback fine with winDVD or PowerDVD. So I just avoid WMP.

 

[Mercutio]

Oh. Yes. Playback. Playback of ATI's MPEG2 files is fine. But my need is to capture and encode in a more efficient format. Hence the high-bit-rate MPEG1.

 

[SteveC]

I have the same problem with my BT8x8 card. If I captue in MPEG2 with PowerVCR (the program it came with), I can't edit it in any program I've tried. I've also tried capturing with WinDVR in MPEG2, and it does the same thing. Only capturing with MPEG1 or HuffyUV can I produce files that I can edit. I was hoping that it was different with the ATI AIW cards.

 

[Mercutio]

Yeah. Now I'm curious. I'm grabbing a bunch of different packages from doom9.net to see whether I can do MPEG2 with anything that's out there. I think the "Plus" version of TMPGEnc handles MPEG2. Maybe I'll try that.

 

[Fushigi]

Fushigi, are you still selling SVHS VCRs?

I still have the following from JVC: HR-S9500U, HR-S9600U, HR-S6800U (9 years old and still a solid deck), HR-S5400U. There's a POS Toshiba HiFi deck (not S-VHS), but it isn't worth anything (it records fine but audio is messed up if used as a play deck).

I use the 9600 (mostly for timeshifting ER & Crossing Jordan). It and the 9500 have a 4MB TBC that does a good job of improving signal quality. Read up on them here: http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?modelId=MODL022150&archive=true

The 6800, circa 1993, just plain works. For it's age it does a pretty darn good job with everything I've ever tossed it's way. One thing it has that no other consumer deck has is 2 sets of audio out, which is really nice if you don't have a switch/splitter and want to use both the composite & S-Video lines at the same time.

The 5400 is a bit more of a no-nonsense mid-grade deck. No TBC but everything works. The closest to a no-frills deck in my lineup.

I have one more 9600 that I'm selling to a friend right now.

Believe it or not, that's a reduction in # of decks compared to a couple of years ago. I topped out at 8 decks. The rest were not S decks & have been sold off to friends & family. All still work.

Mercutio, if you're serious I would sell either the 9600 or the 5400 for a pretty good price. I also have gobs of tapes that have been used rarely (like once or twice) that I would part with dirticus cheapicus. The VHS are Maxell P/I (Professional/Industrial) VHS; the S tapes are either Maxell XRS Black or Fuji HR471s, which are the best S tapes we ever found & used for masters.

- Fushigi

 

[SteveC]

Yeah. Now I'm curious. I'm grabbing a bunch of different packages from doom9.net to see whether I can do MPEG2 with anything that's out there. I think the "Plus" version of TMPGEnc handles MPEG2. Maybe I'll try that.

TMPGEnc Plus works! The free version is supposed to have MPEG2 functionality for 30 days, but it never worked on any of my files, which is why I didn't try the Plus version before now. Finally, I can edit the all of captures I have. Just in time too, as I'm running out of disk space.

Steve

 

[Mercutio]

I was actually playing with TMPGenc Plus last night also. I got amazing results setting up virtualdub to frameserve from TMPGenc. That gave me more flexibility than I ever thought I'd possibly get.

I was able to get TMPGenc to open some decoded .VOB files directly, but not very many. Gotta look into how that's supported.

 

[Mercutio]

Upon further investigation, the AIW9700 is clearly awesome. Today is the first time I've played games with it and, wow, what a difference from my Voodoo5.

 

[SteveC]

Is there any discernable difference in capture quality between the 8500 and 9700? Also, by any chance have you tried the component video out adapter on either card?

 

[Mercutio]

I don't think the 9700 caps MPEG1 any better than the 8500. I tried several different bit-rates and examined the files in slow-motion with virtualdub. Most of the "MPEG-blocks" were even in the same places.

I haven't played with component out yet.