6500K (Daylight) CFLs......

[ddrueding]

Just to be clear,...

Very important, this is, in a thread about light bulbs.

Indeed, considering that the likelyhood of recieving lightbulb peices is much higher when dealing with federal employees.....

though technically, the place I deal with is a "branch" of the post office...the forms I filled out were distinctly for a PO box.

 

[e_dawg]

So now I know how to smuggle drugs into the US...

 

[ddrueding]

So now I know how to smuggle drugs into the US...

Yes, though fedex overnight is a pretty reliable method as well...

 

[Buck]

Speaking of light, today is the December Solstice. Tannin should be happy, all remnants of Winter should be far behind for the next several months. Plus, the need for extra shop lighting at the Redhill outlet is moot, the sun will stay around longer, shining its brilliant rays into the late hours of the day.

 

[ddrueding]

Speaking of light, today is the December Solstice. Tannin should be happy, all remnants of Winter should be far behind for the next several months. Plus, the need for extra shop lighting at the Redhill outlet is moot, the sun will stay around longer, shining its brilliant rays into the late hours of the day.

While here in the northern-US, it's getting dark around 4PM

 

[jtr1962]

A couple of useful links here:

GE fluorescent products catalog

Philips fluorescent/CFL catalog

Sylvania fluorescent catalog

These should help if anyone needs to find a particular type of tube. Philips makes a daylight T-8 tube that has better specs (2850 lumens, 86 CRI) than GE's (2700 lumens, 75 CRI). They also make a 5000K T-8 tube with a CRI of 86 putting out a whopping 3200 lumens (100 lm/W efficiency 8) ). This is their F32T8/ADV850/ALTO tube.

 

[e_dawg]

Went to HD today and picked up a bunch of PAR20 & 30 halogen floods. I noticed that they also sell Philips Natural Color T-12 48" flourescents that have awesome specs: CCT of 5000 K and a CRI of 92! Even better than the Alto Daylight Deluxe (6500 K, CRI 84), and the GE Sunshine tubes (5000 K, CRI 90). Unfortunately, they are also very expensive: $9 CDN ($7.25 US) IIRC.

 

[iGary]

On a side note...

I've been noticing over the past year or so, locally, that there seems to be a concerted effort to replace all "conventional" traffic signal bulbs (halogen, I would presume) with what appears to be LED arrays.

 

[sechs]

The ROI is huge. There's not reason to not do it.

 

[ddrueding]

All the stoplights here have been LCD for quite some time. As soon as they get LCDs bright enough, I'm sure they'll replace the street lights as well.

 

[ddrueding]

BTW, My GF was so impressed with the 5900K lights in my bedroom that I got her some for christmas (as well as the usual 4k jewlery)! I've never given lightbulbs as a gift before, you should have seen the look on her parent's (ignorant-assed) faces

 

[iGary]

All the stoplights here have been LCD for quite some time. As soon as they get LCDs bright enough, I'm sure they'll replace the street lights as well.

L C D or L E D?

I've noticed the occasional traffic signal light that had odd-looking square glass lenses that seem to magnify the light source (maybe more of a directional beaming effect). Those possibly could be LCD.

The LED traffic signal bulbs I'm talking about have an array or maybe, oh, 120 *bright* little red or orange or green LEDS peppered upon a pitch black facing. They are pretty good overall, but I have noticed a few with a dead LED or 2 or 3.

Since I started taking a notice of these presumably LED traffic signal lights, I've noticed more so that some of the remaining incandescent traffic signal lights have a somewhat burnt spot right in the middle of lenses from all the years of 24/7 lightbulb hell.

 

[iGary]

How would you like one of these in yer living room???



Boy oh boy! I'm off to get my airline tickets to visit the Traffic Signal Museum! :eekers:

http://www.trafficsignalmuseum.com/

 

[jtr1962]

Went to HD today and picked up a bunch of PAR20 & 30 halogen floods. I noticed that they also sell Philips Natural Color T-12 48" flourescents that have awesome specs: CCT of 5000 K and a CRI of 92! Even better than the Alto Daylight Deluxe (6500 K, CRI 84), and the GE Sunshine tubes (5000 K, CRI 90). Unfortunately, they are also very expensive: $9 CDN ($7.25 US) IIRC.

That's actually pretty reasonable for a tube of those specs. I paid $7 + shipping for the full-spectrum tubes that I ordered (32W T-8, 2950 lumens, CCT 5000K, CRI 91), and that was by far the best price I had ever seen on those kind of tubes. Considering that the tubes last at least 20,000 hours (mine are rated for 34,000), the price difference between that and a $2 tube wouldn't really concern me. BTW, what were the lumens for those tubes (I assume they were 40W, T-12 tubes)? Anyway, since they are very close in spec to mine, the light should be very nice. Mine seem just like sunlight.

 

[e_dawg]

Don't remember the lumens, but I bet it was pretty low. Those high CRI tubes are usually a little dimmer than their 62 CRI bulk commercial cousins. And yes, they were 40 W T-12's, so you could probably ballpark it by using the GE Sunshine tube as a proxy.

 

[jtr1962]

On a side note...

I've been noticing over the past year or so, locally, that there seems to be a concerted effort to replace all "conventional" traffic signal bulbs (halogen, I would presume) with what appears to be LED arrays.

NYC did that a few years ago, and also replaced the walk/don't walk signs with LED ones using international symbols (don't walk is a red-orange hand, walk is a lunar white person walking). The amber lights weren't replaced (presumably because they're only on a short time). Anyway, since the LEDs last 25 years versus three or four for the incandescents (special 116W long life non-halogen bulb, BTW), they pay for themselves just in labor savings. As for energy saved, figure the incandescents get maybe 8 lm/W because they run at a lower filament temperature (to prolong life), and only 25% or so of the light gets passed through the color filter lens, so the net efficiency is about 2 lm/W. Green and red LEDs get efficiencies ranging from 20 to 50 lm/W, and 100% of the light is at the desired wavelength, so the net efficiency is at least 10 times that of the bulb. I think the LED replacements consume 8 to 11 watts, and are brighter than the 116 W incandescent they replace.

LED streetlights will probably be here about 2015 when white LED efficiency reaches about 150 lm/W. I'm looking forward to getting rid of those awful yellow-orange streetlights and having them replaced with something close to sunlight-type light. They'll probably be better designed to stop light pollution as well, so I'll finally be able to see more than a few stars at night. Here is an interesting article about studies which determined that higher color temperature lights with the same number of lumens appear brighter (it has to do with photopic versus scotopic sensitivity). This is why sodium vapor streetlights, which were selected mainly because they had higher lumens per watt than mercury vapor, ended up appearing dimmer than the lights they replaced.

 

[jtr1962]

Don't remember the lumens, but I bet it was pretty low. Those high CRI tubes are usually a little dimmer than their 62 CRI bulk commercial cousins. And yes, they were 40 W T-12's, so you could probably ballpark it by using the GE Sunshine tube as a proxy.

That's probably a good estimate (2250 lm for the Sunshine tubes), although the place I ordered from also has 40W tubes (same specs as the 32W) getting 3600 lumens, or more than the typical 3200 to 3400 lumens of the bulk tubes you mentioned. It all depends on the phosphors used. Anyway, as the article I linked to in my last post shows, the higher color temperature compensates for the reduced photopic lumens. My GE Sunshine tubes don't seem as dim compared to standard tubes as the lumen difference (2250 vs 3200) would suggest. The 3600 lumen tubes I mentioned earlier would probably appear about 45% brighter than a 3200 lumen cool-white tube due to the higher CCT.

 

[iGary]

...Anyway, since the LEDs last 25 years versus three or four for the incandescents (special 116W long life non-halogen bulb, BTW)...

Well, I remembered that I had a fairly large lightbulb catalogue here. So, I was thumbing through it and noticed US$35.00 each 120-volt traffic signal lightbulbs using krypton, not halogen.

...they pay for themselves just in labor savings.

That I figured was at least motivator #2, with power consumption being #1.

I'd hate to have the job of changing out burnt out traffic signal lightbulbs -- having to deal with a swinging metal beast as traffic zooms around your cherry picker in the middle of an intersection.

I'm looking forward to getting rid of those awful yellow-orange streetlights and having them replaced with something close to sunlight-type light.

That may not exactly happen. That yucky orange sodium vapour lighting is not as bad about blinding you during foggy conditions as the blue-ish daylight mercury vapour lighting.

They'll probably be better designed to stop light pollution as well, so I'll finally be able to see more than a few stars at night.

As it has been hammered into me over the years, the largest problem in this respect is urban light sources that needlessly transmit light upwards away from the ground, even the ones that shine upwards at shallow angles.

 

[Fushigi]

How would you like one of these in yer living room???

That'd be horrible! I mean, what should be yellow & red is lighting up green. No one would ever stop and there'd be traffic accidents at the stairway every evening during the dinner table rush hour. :lol:

 

[jtr1962]

I'm looking forward to getting rid of those awful yellow-orange streetlights and having them replaced with something close to sunlight-type light.

That may not exactly happen. That yucky orange sodium vapour lighting is not as bad about blinding you during foggy conditions as the blue-ish daylight mercury vapour lighting.

True, although fog is very rare in NYC, and the mercury vapor were a distinct bluish-green which causes more blinding than pure white would. IIRC they replaced a 400W mercury vapor lamp with a 250W sodium vapor one during the energy crisis in the early 1970s. Both allegedly had about the same light output (~25000 lumens), but the sodium vapor seemed much dimmer. Now I know why. For energy consumption purposes you need the least number of photopic lumens with higher CCT lighting, so I imagine we might be able to have similar lighting levels with a well-designed fixture (no upward light spill) using maybe 15000 lumens worth of LEDs if they have a CCT of 5000K to 5500K. At the predicted efficiencies this means replacing a 250W sodium vapor lamp with 100W worth of LEDs. I'm sure it'll be done, although it will be interesting to see the colors they pick. I'm betting on pure white similar to the metal halide lamps you see in many parking lots these days.

 

[Howell]

...they pay for themselves just in labor savings.

That I figured was at least motivator #2, with power consumption being #1.

I'd hate to have the job of changing out burnt out traffic signal lightbulbs -- having to deal with a swinging metal beast as traffic zooms around your cherry picker in the middle of an intersection.

In addition, it would be rare for all of the LEDs to fail at once. They could plan to replace the array after 2/3 of the LEDs fail. This would help with the man-power scheduling as this scenario is not an emergency situation. And then there is the safety aspect for the motorists who can still use the light even if it is not "fully" functional.

 

[CityK]

Arrgh,

On a previous visit to Home Depot I spotted what looked like a decent Philips "Daylight" CF (they have a working display above the shelf of bulbs). The packaging for this bulb is unlike any other Philips uses (mainly white and light blue) and rather non-descript except for informing you that it is a 23W, Daylight, Energy Saving Bulb, 1400 Lumens, 6000 hour life. Priced at $7 something. I wrote down what I thought might have been the model number so as to look up its specs later at home on ye ol'internet. However, I copied the wrong number, as opposed to the correct one given in the UPC. Finding myself back in HD on this past weekend, I decided "what the hay" and picked one up.

Interestingly enough, the model (0-46677-12881-4) is no where to be found in the land of Philips. This model is identical except for having a CCT of 3000K, and its bulb is a EL/DT. My bulb also states on its base that it is a Marathon Decorative Twister, but is a EL/dT.....and the philips search feature only has the former type and EL/mDT bulbs as a selection option. I'm guessing that my model also has a CRI 82, and is 6500K. I also discovered that I'm not the only one wondering about this mysterious model. Note the brilliantly incorrect Indian tech support (or, at least, so I persume) response.

Anyways, after several days usage, I definitely notice a lot less eye strain. Colours are decent. Would prefer a little less blue (5700-6000K would probably really do the trick), but overall I'm quite pleased.

On a similar note, yesterday while grocery shopping (Loblaws), I noticed that they were carrying Sylvannia CFs too. Yucky 3000K though.

PS. HD has a good selection of T-8 and T-12 tubes and ballasts now, or at least it appeared to me to be that way.

 

[e_dawg]

Ah, yes. The infamous mystery Philips Daylight CF. I noticed that too at HD. I also stayed away from it because (1) I don't like eerie blue 6500 K flourescents anyways, and (2) the packaging makes it look like a contractor grade bulb (whether it is or not). If you've seen those regular T-12 48" FL tubes in a box of 30 or so, you know what I mean. Those contractor grade tubes have awful specs: CRI of 60-something. Just as long as it emits light and is cheap...

Speaking of Loblaws and Sylvania bulbs, to my surprise, they carry Sylvania Daylight incandescent bulbs. Much whiter than the standard 2700 K incandescent bulb. I'd put it at about 4000 K. It takes a bit of time to get used to them, but once you do, you'll never go back. IMO, they are superior at colour rendition and emit a more natural colour temperature than any CFL. If only mfr's made a CFL as good as their T-12 tubes: e.g., Philips Natural Color 5000 K and 92 CRI.

I eventually did purchase those Philips Natural Color T-12's, BTW. It took a while to get used to their bluish hue compared to the 4100 K Cool White tubes I was used to, but I find them to be excellent now. The only problem is that they don't sell them in a 24" length. We use 48", 36", and 24" T-12's in the kitchen. It looks kinda funny with 5000 K tubes all around and 2x 6500 K or 2x 4100 K tubes (I tried them both) in the 24" sockets. The 6500 K tubes are a little closer match, but the problem is that they are not very compatible with the ballast, which seems to require a Rapid Start tube.

 

[jtr1962]

Ah, yes. The infamous mystery Philips Daylight CF.

Can't say I know what this looks like but Home Depot's Commercial Electric 6500K CF actually has pretty decent color rendering, and really does look like 6500K. Some of the cheaper grade daylight CFs not only have poor color rendering, but are actually closer to 8000K than 6500K. These look as yucky as the yellow 2700K CFs.

I eventually did purchase those Philips Natural Color T-12's, BTW. It took a while to get used to their bluish hue compared to the 4100 K Cool White tubes I was used to, but I find them to be excellent now. The only problem is that they don't sell them in a 24" length.

A change like that generally does take a bit of time to get used to. My GE Chroma 50s seemed a little blue at first until I got used to them. Now 4100K Cool Whites seem a little on the yellow side. Most 24" magnetic ballasts that I've seen require a starter so 24" tubes are usually not completely compatible with rapid start ballasts. We only have one fixture with 24" tubes. I wanted to get rid of the starters. Fortunately, Home Depot has a replacement ballast (termed a trigger start ballast), which more or less operates like a rapid start ballast. Anyway, I haven't found any 24" tubes yet which aren't flaky in that fixture. Generally, you need to hold the switch on for a few seconds while the ends of the tubes glow red, turn it off, and then turn it right back on. This generally starts the tubes. For many reasons it's good to standize on 48" tubes if you're putting in new fixtures. There's a wider variety of choice. 48" T-8s currently seem to offer the most selection, and since they all run on an electronic ballast you avoid the flickering.

24" tubes will work fine with most CF ballasts. If you can get your hands on two burned out CFs in the 19 to 23 watt range and feel like tinkering, you can probably convert your 24" fixture to an electronic ballast by removing the ballasts and wiring them into the fixture. As a bonus, most electronic ballasts seem to lower the CCT of tubes by a few hundred K, so the 6500K will look a little less blue. I replaced the ballast in the laundry room with an electronic one a few months ago and put in 6500K tubes. They don't look much bluer that the 5000K ones in my workroom running on that particular ballast. Reds aren't as good because the tubes have a CRI of 84, but other than that they provide a perfect light for folding clothes. Stains seem easier to find for some reason under a slightly bluer than 5000K light.