America is ungovernable

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
:erm: Reince Priebus, RNC Chairman is an idiot. Just like Boehner and McConnell. They could have actually done something... What they were actually sent to Washington to do, cutting spending. Instead they gave Obama exactly what he wanted, a lifeline to 2012. All the while they tell us this is better than nothing and this was the best they could do. Spare me... When your car is going over the cliff you stop it. You don't fight to set the cruise control at 70 instead of 80.

Just listen to what Harry Reid, Obama, and the rest of them are saying. They're all talking about tax increases and more spending. What a farce... :bibber:
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
Stereodude used this metaphor twice.

More brainwashing. Can't you guys try thinking for yourselves?
It's a perfect analogy. Who cares if it's not original to me?

But, somehow it's perfectly acceptable when the media and democrats have conference calls to get their messages on the same page where they use the same catch phrase over and over to pound a message home...
 

Howell

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
4,740
Location
Chattanooga, TN
Time, you have stated that companies routinely borrow money and that governments can reasonably be expected to do the same.

When does the amount or regularity with which a company borrows become a concern? How about a government?

With the agreement that companies typically borrow either as a cash flow buffer (very short payback) or as investment how much of a payback period is acceptable?
 

Howell

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
4,740
Location
Chattanooga, TN
Am I the only one concerned that so many people think you can reliably spend your way out of debt?

Can someone give me an example where I can reliably do it personally 'cause I'm ready to spend away.
 

Santilli

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
5,285
It's actually kind of funny. If you look back in history of the US taxes, there have been times when the tax rate for a married couple was 90%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States

Some of the 50's tax rates: 92%??? for 250k married.

Anyway, the government can revert to those rates, since it really doesn't produce anything, except by penalties, fees, etc. Sort of the huge monkey on our backs.
 

Will Rickards

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
2,012
Location
Here
Website
willrickards.net
Am I the only one concerned that so many people think you can reliably spend your way out of debt?

Personal debt and US debt are not even the same type of thing. You can't compare household finances to that of the country. Which is why I'm sad that politicians seems to do this on occasion.
 

Howell

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
4,740
Location
Chattanooga, TN
Personal debt and US debt are not even the same type of thing. You can't compare household finances to that of the country. Which is why I'm sad that politicians seems to do this on occasion.

Well I'm doing it now; sorry to make you sad. :p :) Here, have an irish sympathy card.:tgif:

You can obviously compare them. You have to compare them just to be able to say you can't compare them* but I understand your sentiment.

They are obviously conceptually similar so the question is really in what major way do they differ operationally. Obviously there are differences in scale; and if that is the only difference then we can break down how the differences in scale effect the comparison.

Both have analogies to AR and AP. And in both cases AR is not always reliable and AP is not always predictable. Both have overhead expenses for healthcare, defence, transportation, education, and I'm sure others I can't think of. But instead of listing all the ways they are similar I think we can make more progress identifying the ways they are dissimilar.

Name one major way you can't compare household finances to that of a country and the implications of that on the budget. Everybody now!



p.s. It would be better to not use shorthand from the media. I would have no idea what you are talking about.

*Requests for compare and contrast essays alwys rubbed me the wrong way too because literally contrasting is inherent in comparing.
 

Howell

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
4,740
Location
Chattanooga, TN
A household cannot print money whereas a government can.

Acknowledged. Can the government just claim the money it has made as income? No, but it can reduce its debt that way.

As money is added to the system out of thin air things begin to inflate. Inflation benefits those who owe fixed rate loans (mortgage holders and the treasury) at the detriment to lenders (mortgage companies and buyers of treasury notes). There is a tight line to walk there because the treasury needs those buyers but nobody wants to make worthless investments. So, practicly speaking there are limited applications of this tool. Some say the government should not have this ability.

Are there other major differences?
 

Howell

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
4,740
Location
Chattanooga, TN
Income for a household comes from employment or investments. Income for the country comes from taxes.


Is there an aspect of this difference that is important other than the time lag? Is a corporation's finances more like a person or the government?
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
The household equivalent of printing money out of thin air is claiming bankruptcy. Granted, it's now harder to do than in the past, but wiping out debt is functionally the same as making money out of thin air.

And I don't necessarily agree that governments have to borrow. Governments could take in more taxes than they need during good times, invest the surplus, then draw on those investments during the years they engage in deficit spending.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
I'm sorry, but I believe that the US tax system is ass-backwards. The poorest should outright be paying the lowest rates and the richest need to be paying the highest rates. This is regardless of capital gains or any other attempts at social engineering through the tax-code. There should be a maximum limit for all tax credits and deductions in each bracket to enforce the concept that the higher your income the higher the tax. Tax brackets should be automatically COLA'ed so that your tax rate won't increase because of inflation. There should be a fixed-rate national asset tax (like a property tax but covers all assets when a persons assets exceed an arbitrary X hundreds of thousands dollars).

The tax-code is just plain screwy when the less you earn and have, the more you pay in taxes.
I agree wholeheardly with the idea of an asset tax, although my version might not kick in until $10 million or so (and indexed for inflation annually once put into effect). The reason is threefold. One, it would bring in large amounts of money. Two, it would discourage hoarding assets. If someone makes, say, $20 million a year, they would be encouraged by the tax code to spend most of it somehow on depreciable items, helping the economy in the process. You might have certain classes of assets, such as charitable endowments, which are exempt. Three, it would probably discourage paying huge salaries in the first place because the person really couldn't hold on to most of the money. This in turn would either result in lower prices, or more equitable pay between the lowest and highest paid employees. In the end, $10 million (in 2011 dollars) is plenty enough for anyone to live well. Sure, all the huge estates, yachts, other things the super wealthy spend their money on might no longer exist, but I can't see how that would be a bad thing. Money is like food. None is bad, some is good, a lot causes more problems than it solves. The societies that frown on accumulating excess wealth are usually the ones which end up surviving in the long haul. I've heard the mantra "greed is good". To some extent it is because it motivates people to do something productive instead of remaining idle (lack of motivation to produce is a big flaw of communist systems). Like anything else in life though, there should be limits. Once you make your $10 million, step aside and give someone else a chance instead of going for $100 million or a billion. You can still live fantastically on that $10 million (which can grow with inflation without being taxed furtherr) for the rest of your days.
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,742
Location
Horsens, Denmark
And I don't necessarily agree that governments have to borrow. Governments could take in more taxes than they need during good times, invest the surplus, then draw on those investments during the years they engage in deficit spending.

This. But the problem is that politicians can't be trusted to make good long-term decisions. Hell, they can't be trusted to think beyond the next election (every 2 years).

Because of that, and because spending money is far more popular than collecting it, I feel the budget should be kept always in balance or net positive. If there is a surplus at the end of the year, just pay it as a dividend.
 

Will Rickards

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
2,012
Location
Here
Website
willrickards.net
Is there an aspect of this difference that is important other than the time lag? Is a corporation's finances more like a person or the government?

It is more important that the two are completely different types of income.
Tax laws are complicated making tax revenue variable. Versus your salary or hourly wage is pretty easy to figure out and pretty steady for most people. Taxes come from many places but I'll just consider the income tax for the discussion purposes. The income tax depends on the wages of the citizens. If unemployment is high and wages are stagnant or falling, that tax revenue is not received making budget shortfall more likely. And if we are in a economically good period, there are more revenues as employment is high and wages for a given job increase.

Also just at the time when the expense of unemployment is needed the most, the income is falling. So unemployment is a real budget issue.

For a person if they lose their job all income stops, except investments if they have them. For this to happen for the country, everyone would have to be out of work.

Corporations have different income altogether as it depends on sales of some sort or another. So there is demand driven income. When demand goes down, so does the company's revenue. But while a person just has their effort to produce work, a company needs materials and resources of some sort. So there are margins involved which affect revenue.

The three are completely different animals with different sources and ultimate uses/purpose of that revenue.
 

Will Rickards

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
2,012
Location
Here
Website
willrickards.net
A household can have a budget but then that gets blown by unexpected medical expenses or household repair or even car repair. Similar happens for the US. In times of economic downturn, the social safety net costs more. In times of war, the defense costs more. Natural disasters also are unexpected expenses. So a balanced budget may not be possible in those times. A household would hopefully have an emergency fund for that. The US has no such concept.

Our memories are short, few remember or think about the realities of the down times when it is the good times. We do need to plan for those.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
Regarding the home mortgage deduction, this is a perfect example of social engineering of the tax code which has had a long term negative effect. Either eliminate the home mortgage deduction, or allow deducting rents also. As it is, the tax code skews finances in favor of home ownership. This is a bad thing when people can only marginally afford a home. It's even worse for other reasons. Encouraging private home ownership basically encourages sprawl with all the negatives that implies. This in turn affects energy policy, increases health care expenditures (non-walkable communities increase obesity rates), uses huge swaths of viable farmland for exurban housing, and reduces population density below the threshold where public transit is viable. Time to reverse the big mistake and eliminate the home mortgage deduction. Denser living not dependent upon fossil fuels would help cut huge amounts from the federal budget, particular foreign military ventures to secure oil supplies.

On Obamacare-the current health care crisis has little to do with large numbers of Americans being uninsured (which includes me-I haven't been to a doctor since 1980). Rather, it's caused by large numbers of Americans needing lots of expensive health care on account of a poison sedentary lifestyle which encourages obesity and the attendant health problems (heart disease, stroke, diabetes, depression). Until you fix that health care spending will grow like a monster. The reason European countries can afford universal health care is because most of their population is active enough to remain basically healthy into their 80s. And when the body finally starts going, they don't spend exorbitant amounts to extend life by mere months or even weeks. In countries where obesity rates are up, like the UK, there is already push to contain costs. We need to fix that fundamental problem first or we're just drilling a hole in water. Encouraging development which is walkable/bikeable is the best way to do this in the long run. Instead, we're focusing on only diet which is a big mistake.
 

Santilli

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
5,285
Funny, but I had the same thought. I was sitting here wondering why and what Bill Gates is going to do with 56 BILLION dollars. I was also thinking about the incredible amount of money we have funneled into the middle east for oil, where it is kept in the hands of a few ultra-rich people.

Those people have used that money to collapse the stockmarket, and create this down turn.
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,742
Location
Horsens, Denmark
Balancing a household budget is possible because you are making decisions based on your own interests, and they aren't changing for most of your life.

The problem with politicians is that they are acting in their own best interest (I would argue that this is impossible to avoid), which isn't the country's best interest. Aligning these two would be the ultimate resolution. Same for corporations.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
I agree wholeheardly with the idea of an asset tax, although my version might not kick in until $10 million or so (and indexed for inflation annually once put into effect). The reason is threefold. One, it would bring in large amounts of money. Two, it would discourage hoarding assets. If someone makes, say, $20 million a year, they would be encouraged by the tax code to spend most of it somehow on depreciable items, helping the economy in the process. You might have certain classes of assets, such as charitable endowments, which are exempt. Three, it would probably discourage paying huge salaries in the first place because the person really couldn't hold on to most of the money. This in turn would either result in lower prices, or more equitable pay between the lowest and highest paid employees. In the end, $10 million (in 2011 dollars) is plenty enough for anyone to live well. Sure, all the huge estates, yachts, other things the super wealthy spend their money on might no longer exist, but I can't see how that would be a bad thing. Money is like food. None is bad, some is good, a lot causes more problems than it solves. The societies that frown on accumulating excess wealth are usually the ones which end up surviving in the long haul. I've heard the mantra "greed is good". To some extent it is because it motivates people to do something productive instead of remaining idle (lack of motivation to produce is a big flaw of communist systems). Like anything else in life though, there should be limits. Once you make your $10 million, step aside and give someone else a chance instead of going for $100 million or a billion. You can still live fantastically on that $10 million (which can grow with inflation without being taxed further) for the rest of your days.
You can't possibly think this will work do you? People can and will find ways around the taxes. They always do. There's a reason why the gov't only collects about 19.5% of GDP in taxes no matter what the tax rates or tax code.

Regardless though we shouldn't punish people for being successful. Why do you think US companies are reincorporating in foreign countries? You try to soak the rich they will simply leave and head to Hong Kong or somewhere else with more economic freedom.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
The problem with politicians is that they are acting in their own best interest (I would argue that this is impossible to avoid), which isn't the country's best interest. Aligning these two would be the ultimate resolution. Same for corporations.
You're overlooking that a large portion of the people in gov't want to create a permanent underclass that's both a voting majority and completely dependent on the gov't for their survival so they will have power in perpetuity.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
You can't possibly think this will work do you? People can and will find ways around the taxes. They always do. There's a reason why the gov't only collects about 19.5% of GDP in taxes no matter what the tax rates or tax code.

Regardless though we shouldn't punish people for being successful. Why do you think US companies are reincorporating in foreign countries? You try to soak the rich they will simply leave and head to Hong Kong or somewhere else with more economic freedom.
This isn't giving disincentives to be successful. From where I stand, $10 million is a lot of money. All my idea would do is discourage those who have already been successful from accumulating more. To me it makes all the sense in the world once you've made your wealth to step aside and give someone else the chance. This is actually the primary benefit of this idea, not the small amount of extra tax revenue it might bring in.

And I didn't say anything about corporations, only individuals. There are valid reasons why corporations would need to retain more than $10 million in assets, and I wouldn't do anything to interfere with that.

As for ways around the tax code, well, there are always ways but at least a tax on assets over $10 million might create a societal stigma against hoarding more wealth than you can reasonably use. It's sort of the same analogy as with food. Would you consider it moral or ethical for a very rich individual to hoard enough food to feed a country while everyone in the country is starving? He/she could never eat that much food, so why would they need to keep it? What positive end is served either for individuals or society when people accumulate more wealth than they can use in a thousand lifetimes? To me it's just another form of hoarding, basically an illness, and yet society glamorizes the megarich.

You're overlooking that a large portion of the people in gov't want to create a permanent underclass that's both a voting majority and completely dependent on the gov't for their survival so they will have power in perpetuity.
You're right, and to add to this I think the ruling class (which includes corporate CEOs) wants a permanent underclass so they always have a ready supply of employees willing to work for wages so low they end up living paycheck to paycheck. I hear so many of the ruling class giving sound bites to upward mobility. The reality is that upward mobility is the lowest it's been in decades. You can do everything right, get an education, work hard, but still find yourself barely able to make ends meet. And I think the fundamental underlying reason is because the ruling class are hoarding an ever increasing share of wealth. They refuse to share the wealth either in the form of higher taxes or living wages. If past history is any indication, it's only a matter of time before the proletariat revolt. Sad to say, the end result of such revolts is usually a lot of bloodshed, confiscation of the wealth of the upper classes, and installation of lousy forms of government (i.e. communism, naziism, Khmer Rouge, etc.). Best those in power realize it's in their long term best interests to part with some of their wealth now, rather than lose everything, perhaps also their lives, in a full-blown coup d'etat.

Oh, and China will experience the same thing if those in power decide to hoard the wealth, so fleeing the US isn't any kind of panacea.
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,742
Location
Horsens, Denmark
You can't possibly think this will work do you? People can and will find ways around the taxes. They always do. There's a reason why the gov't only collects about 19.5% of GDP in taxes no matter what the tax rates or tax code.

Tax evasion (the legal kind, at least) is a byproduct of a complex tax system. If we git rid of every possible deduction, write-off, and discount, they will have nowhere to hide. This has 4 advantages:

1. Makes the wealthy (who can afford all the accountants and tax lawyers they want) pay their share.

2. Allows the poor (who can't afford the pros) to do it themselves and not be at a disadvantage.

3. Lowers the tax rate in general due to less evasion at the top.

4. Less lawyers.

Regardless though we shouldn't punish people for being successful. Why do you think US companies are reincorporating in foreign countries? You try to soak the rich they will simply leave and head to Hong Kong or somewhere else with more economic freedom.

It will always be cheaper to incorporate elsewhere, because some country will always be willing to take a very small slice of the corporate pie so long as they don't have to provide anything for the employees. We couldn't charge a low enough tax rate if we wanted to; it is financially impossible.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
There's a big difference between having the highest corporate tax rate and having the lowest. I'm not saying we need to have the lowest, but having the highest doesn't help.
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,742
Location
Horsens, Denmark
There's a big difference between having the highest corporate tax rate and having the lowest. I'm not saying we need to have the lowest, but having the highest doesn't help.

Saying we have the highest is not particularly relevant. Evasion is so widespread, common, and socially acceptable that the corporations can practically pay whatever they want. Honestly, I think we could get away with a really low rate so long as everyone had to pay their share. In the end this would help productivity as the corporations wouldn't waste all the resources they currently do jumping through hoops to avoid paying the taxes in the first place.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
Frankly we should set the corporate tax rate to 0%. Corporations don't pay taxes, it's just a cost they pass on to their customers. By having the highest corporate tax rate in the world we simply make it harder for companies in the US to compete with international corporations that are located where the taxes are lower. Instead we whine that companies are moving their operations overseas. I wonder why...
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,742
Location
Horsens, Denmark
Frankly we should set the corporate tax rate to 0%. Corporations don't pay taxes, it's just a cost they pass on to their customers. By having the highest corporate tax rate in the world we simply make it harder for companies in the US to compete with international corporations that are located where the taxes are lower. Instead we whine that companies are moving their operations overseas. I wonder why...

Can't do it. Companies require infrastructure and cost the state and feds money. They should cover those costs.

And to restate what I wrote earlier, we will never have the lowest corporate tax rate so long as their are countries who will collect some tiny amount of money (practically a bribe) and not provide anyone with anything. Being able to incorporate elsewhere when the bulk of your employees/customers is here is a tax loophole that needs to be plugged.

Edit: I would be more inclined to ditch corporate taxes if we stopped treating them like people. No legal status, no liability, no holdings, etc.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
A sales tax in lieu of both corporate and personal income taxes gets around all the issues you mentioned. Anyway way you look at it, figuring out how much income tax a corporation owes is highly complex. It requires a huge expenditure of manpower. Even then, there is no "correct" number due to the complexity of tax laws. A sales tax on the other hand is very simple. You sell an item, then collect tax at whatever the rate is for that class of item. This can all be automated at the point of sale. Every so often, you remit a check to the government for whatever amount the grand total is.

There's less incentive for evasion with a sales tax because the company isn't paying it, and the customer really has no choice but to pay it if they want to buy an item. Occasional spot checks could ensure that businesses aren't doing "cash sales" with preferred customers to avoid the tax. And for all the talk about how regressive a sales tax is, you can exempt necessities like food or non-luxury clothing. And on the flip side you can have a much higher tax rate on expensive, totally optional, luxury items. A sales tax is the way to go. Every analysis shows it would stimulate the economy and boost government revenue. Unfortunately, every time it's bought up all the accountant lobbies come out against it for obvious reasons.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
Can't do it. Companies require infrastructure and cost the state and feds money. They should cover those costs.
That's precisely my point though. They're not really covering those costs now. The people who buy their products are covering the costs. The companies not in the US don't have those costs baked into their products and have a competitive advantage as a result.
 

Santilli

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
5,285
None of this is going away. The IRS is FAR too powerful, and entrenched in the American system.

The system employees a large number of people, both the IRS and accountants, tax lawyers etc.

I have little doubt that those groups are powerful enough to stop any real change in the system.
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
The gov't will never do it because they enjoy using the tax code to control people and their behavior. They will never give up that control.
 

fb

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
728
Location
Östersund, Sweden
That's precisely my point though. They're not really covering those costs now. The people who buy their products are covering the costs. The companies not in the US don't have those costs baked into their products and have a competitive advantage as a result.

Who finances these things for the "companies not in the US"? I haven't studied national economics so its possible that I have missed something here, but I only see two alternatives:

1. The tax payers in the other country.
2. The end consumers.
 

LunarMist

I can't believe I'm a Fixture
Joined
Feb 1, 2003
Messages
17,497
Location
USA
The RAID 0 cannot withstand the cycles and now the computer hangs at boot.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
The RAID 0 cannot withstand the cycles and now the computer hangs at boot.
Yes indeed, that's the problem in a nutshell-RAID 0 which hits alternate sectors of the economy but has no inherent backup against catastrophy, and sometimes causes the entire economy to hang.
 

snowhiker

Storage Freak Apprentice
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
1,668
Frankly we should set the corporate tax rate to 0%. Corporations don't pay taxes, it's just a cost they pass on to their customers. By having the highest corporate tax rate in the world we simply make it harder for companies in the US to compete with international corporations that are located where the taxes are lower. Instead we whine that companies are moving their operations overseas. I wonder why...


When a corporation passes the cost of higher taxes onto its customers it does results in higher cost products, absolutely. However this can help small businesses that don't have huge economies of scale and help them compete. I'd rather have 1000 small/independent neighborhood booksellers Vs one AMAZONion company being the only choice/place to buy.

I think companies would rather pay an Indian programmer $15/hour Vs. $80/hour for the U.S. counterpart, etc, etc, etc. Taxes do play a part in outsourcing, but I feel it's just one small part of their goal to make as much short-term profit as possible.
 
Top