Barracuda ATA V announced

What ACTUAL seek time will the Barracuda ATA V have?

  • 9ms - Seagate always tell the truth

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 10ms

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 11ms

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 12ms

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 13ms or more

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
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Tea

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Anyone noticed that Seagate have announced the Cuda ATA V? 60GB/platter, Serial ATA to come as a running change in the northern autumn. They claim 560Mbit/sec and 9ms. I believe the first figure, don't believe the second one.
 

CougTek

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I see that John Paulsen's name is back on the press release pages. They hide his name for quite a while, dunno why.

I hope Seagate will have as much success as Western Digital with their 8MB cache version, planned for the serial ATA model. I doubt it though. If at least they can respect their advertized specification (about the seek/access time) for once, it would be great. Given their track record, the chances are low.
 

Tannin

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Done. For the record, Tea had "what actual seek time", only with the square brackets. I tidied it up. To risk dragging her thread off-topic, why is it that phpBB (a) doesn't allow BB code in poll questions, and (b) does not preview poll questions, only the associated post?

Sorry Tea, I'll get out of your thread now.
 

Mercutio

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I'd sooner believe Connor could rise from the dead again with a magical talking pony and palletloads of drives with that quoted spec than Seagate actually deliver an IDE drive with decent performance.

My personal bet is that the WD1200AB will be within 2% of the thing in every one of SR's benchmarks.
 

time

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The Barracuda IV actually does quite well on SR's benchmarks. As I've pointed out before, about the same as the equivalent Maxtor D740X. But both these drives fail to put much space between themselves and the WD1200AB.
 

Tea

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Time and others with the same point of view - if it's really 6000 RPM, I'll eat one. Fair dinkum, does anyone think a drive manufacturer would under report specs? And how much extra would they have to spend on non-standard parts to make that non-standard spindle speed? Long and the short of it, I'll bet you a slab of Cascade Pale Ale to a stubbie of XXXX on it.Are you on?

DB: it wouldn't be the first time that 5400 RPM drives have had better access times than a Seagate 7200. In fact it's routine for the better 5400s to beat Cuda ATAs.

PS: I seem to be out on a limb here on the Cuda ATA V access time: I plumped for 12ms, everyone else is going for 11 or 13. That's with AM off. With AM on, more like 13. But no odds offered on that one.
 

Mercutio

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time, let's just say my subjective impression of the 740X is that it's a faster drive. I've yet to use a *JB, so maybe I'm a bit biased there.
Or maybe seek time (where the Maxtor is faster than the Seagate) plays a big part in my subjective impression.

The *AB-series drives are remarkable, though, 5400 or 6000rpm. If WD brought their prices in-line with other 5400rpm drives they'd probably top my list of drive purchases.
 

Prof.Wizard

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This thread is bollocks. :(
Nah... I expect it to be 1-2ms of the specs. The 8MB in the S-ATA model is an added blessing. I'm confident that model would be a big hit...

I'm buying one anyway in September, I need storage... (ATA/100)
 

Buck

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time said:
There's a strong suspicion the AB is actually a 6000rpm drive.

Having seen one of these drives (from a customer), the mainstream AB is actually 5,400-rpm. The 6,000-rpm that I saw was an AB, but it was Apple OEM (X-Bit tested one of these and theorized about the speed). That tells you what Apple is asking its suppliers to do. I wonder if Compaq does the exact opposite, they have their suppliers slow things down. I've seen a load of WD200BB drives from Compaq that all had the nice metal plate covering the PCBA. At the time, I thought that only the Performer family had this feature, but again, OEMs have suppliers do odd things.
 

CougTek

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Prof.Wizard said:
This thread is bollocks. :(
Nah... I expect it to be 1-2ms of the specs. The 8MB in the S-ATA model is an added blessing. I'm confident that model would be a big hit...
A perfect example of impartiallity. We should all be ashamed of not taking Seagate's specifications for granted. Why none of us trust Seagate anymore? You are right as usual P.W. The barracuda ATA have always been tha bomb, especially the third generation. Winstone, IPEAK and all the other benchmarks are all wrong, the Barracuda ATA IV had a 8.9ms seek time in reality. It's true, I tell ya. The ATA 5 will spank the ass of all the other drives except Seagate's own SCSI drives. I tell ya. Why don't you believe me? Hey, Seagate said the Barracuda ATA 5 will be the fastest PC drive, IT HAS TO BE TRUE! You are all wrong!

And stop telling me that Windows sucks and that Santa Claus doesn't exist, cause you are wrong on BOTH!
 

Prof.Wizard

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Jeez Coug, I was only joking... (see my comment on the frontpage news release :right: I'm interested only for its quietness)
I had run HDTach myself and saw that ATA IV was indeed well beyond specs (even if less than 2ms if I recall correctly).

However admit that this thread is (again?) an oh-how-much-it-sucks-Barracuda one... OK, it sucks... But it's soooooooo pretty quiet... :D
 

time

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That was uncalled for Coug.

Let's not degenerate into an unrelated slanging match, please.
 

time

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Tea said:
Time and others with the same point of view - if it's really 6000 RPM, I'll eat one. Fair dinkum, does anyone think a drive manufacturer would under report specs? And how much extra would they have to spend on non-standard parts to make that non-standard spindle speed? Long and the short of it, I'll bet you a slab of Cascade Pale Ale to a stubbie of XXXX on it.Are you on?
See Buck's post. 6000rpm parts may indeed exist. But hey, don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger.

From Storage Review:

AnalyzeDisk pegs the WD800AB's access time at 14.1 milliseconds, a score quite good for a 5400 RPM drive. Subtracting 5.6 milliseconds to account for the average rotational latency of a 5400 RPM spindle speed yields a measured seek time of just 8.5 milliseconds, a figure that handily beats WD's 9.5 ms claim. At 14.9 milliseconds, average write access time is equally impressive.

This brings up an interesting angle on Western Digital's recent "5400 RPM" drives. A while back in a discussion thread that has unfortunately been lost, several readers pointed out that the 60-gig WD600AB featured a "nominal" spindle speed of 5400 RPM and rotation latency that was not 5.56 milliseconds as one would expect from such a drive but rather "nominally" 5.0 milliseconds, a figure that would represent a 6000 RPM unit. Assuming a rotational latency of 5.0 milliseconds yields a measured seek time of 9.1 ms, still well below the 9.5 ms claim. Any way you slice it, the drive over-performs in this particular test.


I couldn't put it better than Eugene, but I will note that WD is now claiming 9mS rather than 9.5, which would be nearly bang on ...

Seriously, you know the shenanigans WD plays with variants within the same external model number. If I was cynical, I might suggest they submitted 6000rpm versions for review.

But no, I'm not prepared to risk a carton of Cascade on wild speculation. Maybe a carton of XXXX, but I might have trouble with takers ...

it wouldn't be the first time that 5400 RPM drives have had better access times than a Seagate 7200. In fact it's routine for the better 5400s to beat Cuda ATAs.
If you insist on going out on a limb, it's too tempting to try out that new chainsaw. :p

Again, from Storage Review (pity we can't just link this stuff):

Maker and Model RPM Latency Seek Access Net
Maxtor D740X: 7200 4.2mS 8.5mS 12.3mS 8.1mS
Samsung P40: 7200 4.2mS 8.9mS 13.6mS 9.4mS
Barracuda IV : 7200 4.2mS 9.5mS 13.9mS 9.7mS
WD WD800AB: 5400 5.0mS 9.0mS 14.1mS 9.1mS
Samsung V30: 5400 5.6mS 9.0mS 14.6mS 9.0mS
Maxtor D540X: 5400 5.5mS 9.6mS 14.8mS 9.3mS

RPM, Latency and Seek are as quoted by the manufacturer.
Access is as measured, and Net is the derived read seek time.

As you can see, most measurements are within 3% of the claimed figures, with the exception of the D740X (Maxtor now claims sub 8mS seeks on their site, but the datasheet still says 8.5), and the Samsung P40.

Comparing the Barracuda IV with the Maxtor D740X is interesting. Results are split four each across the eight SR tests. The Maxtor does best in the simulation of a lightly loaded server (15% ahead, although the gap closes as the load increases), and the Seagate stars in Eugene's boot drive tests, with a lead of 18%.

What does all this mean? No idea. :) But it is not true to say that 5400rpm drives offer better access times than the Barracuda IV. Neither is it true to claim that Seagate wildly exaggerates their specifications. And finally, the Seagate is competitive with its peers.
 

Tea

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No no, my slab of Tassie's best, your stubbie of Queensland Yellow. That's 24 to 1 odds I'm offering, even if we were to agree on an exchange rate of 1 Cascade = 1 XXXX, which is questionable. (Not that I don't like XXXX, it's a damn good beer, but Cascade Pale Ale is just wonderful. Even Tannin likes it.)
 

Prof.Wizard

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time said:
But it is not true to say that 5400rpm drives offer better access times than the Barracuda IV. Neither is it true to claim that Seagate wildly exaggerates their specifications. And finally, the Seagate is competitive with its peers.
Amen. :)

Actually, Barracuda IV is competing very good with almost all 7.2K drives in SR 2002 benchmarks. Excluding WD's SE models of course.
 

Tea

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Recent Seagate Drives - claimed vs measured seek

Barracuda ATA-IV
Claimed seek: 8.9ms
Measured seek: 10.8ms
Seagate's untruth: 1.9ms - 21%


Barracuda ATA-IV
Claimed seek: 8.9ms
Measured seek: 11.2ms
Seagate's untruth: 2.3ms - 26%

U Series 5
Claimed seek: 8.9ms
Measured seek: 13.8ms
Seagate's untruth:4.9 ms - 55%

U 10
Claimed seek: 8.9ms
Measured seek: 12.5ms
Seagate's untruth: 3.6ms - 40%

This is hardly honest. I'm surprised that they have not been prosecuted actually. Under Austrailian law it is clearly illegal.
 

Tea

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Some examples of 5400 RPM drives that blew the 7200 RPM Barracuda ATA-III into the weeds. (Listed in order of access times - best first, worst last.)


14.2ms Quantum Fireball LCT 10 4400 RPM!
14.4ms Samsung SpinPoint V102005400 RPM
14.4ms Samsung Spinpoint V20400 5400 RPM
14.7ms IBM Deskstar 40GV 5400 RPM
14.9ms Western Digital Caviar WD600AB 5400 RPM
15.4ms Western Digital Caviar WD450AA 5400 RPM
15.4ms Seagate Barracuda ATA III 7200 RPM

At 13.9ms, the Cuda ATA-IV manages to out-access the 5400s. Just. There are two reasons for this: (a) the ATA IV is substantially improved over previous models and (b) the standard of 5400 RPM drives has declined in recent years, as performance has become less and less of a factor in this market segment. Even so, for an allegedly "high-performance" drive, beating a decent 5400 RPM value-class drive by a mere 0.5ms is a poor effort. And being 0.3ms ahead of the old 4400 RPM Quantum Fireball LCT is a disgrace.

Yeah, we sell them. But we don't use them for high-performance applications, we use them because their reliability is OK and the 60GB and 80GB models are very cheap - like AU$20 less than a 60/80GB Samsung or Western Digital 7200. At the same price as a 60GB Samsung 5400, the 60GB Cuda ATA is good value. If it was the same price as a 60GB BB or P40, I wouldn't go near it unless I was stuck for stock or cared more about accoustics than performance.
 

flagreen

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Tea said:
No no, my slab of Tassie's best, your stubbie of Queensland Yellow. That's 24 to 1 odds I'm offering, even if we were to agree on an exchange rate of 1 Cascade = 1 XXXX, which is questionable. (Not that I don't like XXXX, it's a damn good beer, but Cascade Pale Ale is just wonderful. Even Tannin likes it.)
Translation please! Slab? Stubbie? Queensland Yellow?
 

Tea

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A slab is 24 stubbies. Or cans.

A stubbie is a small bottle, the same size as a can... er ... 375ml, I think.

"Queensland Yellow" is one I just made up. Queensland's most popular beer is XXXX (pronounced as 'four X'). It is despised by most of the nation, but loved by most Queenslanders. Time and I are maveriks: he's from Qld and hates it, I'm from Victoria and like it. Neither one of us is representative of our states! It is a little paler than the common Victorian brews and has a yellow label. Hence "Queensland Yellow".
 

time

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Firstly, I can't see anywhere in the thread or title where it says we're discussing U series drives. :p

Secondly, wheeling out the Cuda III may have seemed like a master stroke, but that means I can also drag in the Cuda I and II. :p

Barracuda II
Claimed seek: 8.2mS
Measured seek: 8.3mS
Seagate's untruth: 0.1mS (1%)

12.5mS Seagate Barracuda ATA II 7200rpm :mrgrn:

And thirdly, Seagate's claimed seek for the tested Cuda IV is 9.5mS, not 8.9. And I don't know where you got your measured figure from. I got mine from the most recent info at SR.

So I, II and IV have all been within spitting distance of their claimed spec (I'm going to conveniently ignore III as the very black sheep of the family). Does this mean we are betting on which ancestry V will take after?
 

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If a server benchmark result is the real projection of performance of the drive in an actual (low- and high-end) server enviroment, why you all care so much about access times?

This is a serious question, so I expect a serious, objective, and evidence-based answer.
 

Tea

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Woops! I'd thought they had the usual 8.9ms bull. Checking on their site I see that they are claiming 9.0 and 9.5ms for the ATA-IV. Is it not extraordinary that they can produce a faster drive, and yet claim a higher seek for it than the old model, and still be nowhere near their promised performance level? The old Seagate would never have done that.

Two sources for my Cuda ATA seek times:

(a) SR

(b) Me

I've run Winbench seek time tests on several Cuda ATA-IVs, and my figures agree pretty closely with SR's. Or at least they do once I turn the accoustic management crap off. With it on, they are even worse.

Hey - they are not a bad drive. Hell, I'll go so far as to say that (unless absolute reliability is your number one concern, in which case you should use a Spinpoint or a Cheetah) they are the best 5400 RPM class drive on the market.

The Cuda I and IIs were, as you say, excellent.
 

NRG = mc²

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I'd buy one if

a) it is as quiet or quieter than ATA IV
b) it is faster than the ATA IV.

Right now I'd go for a 800JB since it combines excellent performance and very good acoustics (good enough performance to discount the Cuda's noise-level difference IMO).

However, perhaps the 8mb cache of the 'Cuda will allow it to surge ahead, we'll have to see about that... When will we see this drive? I hope they don't do a Quantum on us and bring it out next year... S-ATA sounds nice also.
 

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NRG = mc² said:
However, perhaps the 8mb cache of the 'Cuda will allow it to surge ahead, we'll have to see about that... When will we see this drive? I hope they don't do a Quantum on us and bring it out next year... S-ATA sounds nice also.
The 8MB model will be an EMPEROR! :D

I'm so pleased Seagate did again its hat trick...
 

NRG = mc²

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I doubt it will be faster overall than the JB series. It will, however, have a higher STR, if that is of any interest...
 

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Mercutio said:
time, let's just say my subjective impression of the 740X is that it's a faster drive. I've yet to use a *JB, so maybe I'm a bit biased there.
Or maybe seek time (where the Maxtor is faster than the Seagate) plays a big part in my subjective impression.

The *AB-series drives are remarkable, though, 5400 or 6000rpm. If WD brought their prices in-line with other 5400rpm drives they'd probably top my list of drive purchases.

Merc, you should have picked up a couple of the 120GB AB's for $109 from outpost.com a few weeks back, tho they are now asking $149 for them :(
 

DrunkenBastard

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Tea said:
A slab is 24 stubbies. Or cans.

A stubbie is a small bottle, the same size as a can... er ... 375ml, I think.

"Queensland Yellow" is one I just made up. Queensland's most popular beer is XXXX (pronounced as 'four X'). It is despised by most of the nation, but loved by most Queenslanders. Time and I are maveriks: he's from Qld and hates it, I'm from Victoria and like it. Neither one of us is representative of our states! It is a little paler than the common Victorian brews and has a yellow label. Hence "Queensland Yellow".

The heathens would call it a "case" of beer. And we all know the J.B Premium Lager is the world's finest ;)
 

Mercutio

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DrunkenBastard said:
Merc, you should have picked up a couple of the 120GB AB's for $109 from outpost.com a few weeks back, tho they are now asking $149 for them :(

I did. I sold the 800ABs (in complete systems) I'd bought maybe two weeks before to pay for them.
 

Prof.Wizard

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Just read the PDF of the specs.

For the sake of objectivity, I comment that the new Barracuda will not be so quiet as IV. :(
I'm somehow disappointed by this. All sound emissions will be higher for all modes (idle, quiet, performance)...
 
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