Beef

[sechs]

I think the stress of living in the wild for a fish is a hell of a lot more than the stress of being fed in a lake without any predators. But that's just me.

First, you presume that fish think about this a lot. They *are* fish-brained.

Second, I'm not so sure that spending my life in a 20 by 20 by 20 pen with a hundred or so other fish is really the life of luxory.

 

[blakerwry]

I use the term stress differently than if I were to ask you if your day was stressful. I'm sure they don't go home to their wife and tell her how lousy their day was.

But I am sure they do feel some form of stress and the daily life of living in the wild is much more stressful physically than that of captivity.

 

[Tea]

But I am sure the daily life of living in the wild is much more stressful physically than that of captivity.

Brother, you don't know nuffin!

 

[jtr1962]

What we really need is lab-grown meat.

I'm serious.

Think giant trays (or whatever) in a sterile factory that, over the span of a few weeks with the right ingredients and nutrient supply systems, can produce 60 foot long, perfect steaks. Or chicken. Or swordfish. Or whatever*.

And it'll probably happen sooner than we think. In the event that it doesn't, I've already tasted "veggie" hamburgers, meat balls, ribs, chopped meat, and a few other things. In most cases it was as good as the real thing. The only drawback is that it costs as much or more, so most people would rather buy the real thing. In my opinion, the only thing to do is to get the price way down, and I'm guessing most people will switch and never look back. Whether with "veggie" meat or lab-grown meat, at least we'll finally get organizations like PETA off our backs once and for all.

I personally stopped eating beef (mainly as part of a larger dish like meatballs or meat in sauce or in a taco) when this Mad cow thing started. After reading how they're raised, and all the junk needed to keep them from dying on a corn-fed diet, I doubt I'll ever go back to eating it. As it is I only eat meat a few times a week anyway. I personally look forward to lab-grown meat. No added chemicals, no chance of infection, consistent taste, much healthier for you, probably much lower price, and best of all no guilt trip about killing some poor cow/pig/chicken/turkey/fish/human. Woops, only kidding about the last one. Then again, I wonder how my mailman's liver would taste with fava beans..... :mrgrn:

I wonder if the obesity epidemic is in part caused by bovine growth hormone. I'm also wondering if the fact that it seems young females in general have much larger breasts than those of my generation or those before has to do with the use of estrogen implants. These are certainly two negatives caused by the use of drugs in meat production. The effect of antibiotics is obvious as well. As a population we're sicker than ever thanks to the proliferation of "superbugs". Frankly, we as a population would be healthier if meat went back to being a one or twice a week luxury item. The reason for being of industrial beef production is so Joe Sixpack can have his two Big Macs a day-something his heart and waistline certainly don't need.

 

[Howell]

So jtr, you're not familiar with the Atkins diet?

 

[jtr1962]

So jtr, you're not familiar with the Atkins diet?

I'm aware of it, and I don't see how it can possibly be good for you in the long term even if it does cause you to lose weight faster. An all-meat diet is no good (unless you're a cat or dog), too much fat is no good. The Atkins diet basically combines these two things while getting rid of carbohydrates. Humans are omnivores. We're meant to eat a little of everything. I'll even say that a 100% vegetarian diet probably isn't healthy either as it lacks some trace minerals only found in meat.

 

[Howell]

Perhaps "basicly". But only in the most basic of terms. It's only entirely carb free for the first two weeks. Maybe one week.

IMO, the three biggest contributors to US obesity is 1) large portion sizes, 2) eating foods high in sugars immediately after a meal, 3) intake of too many carbs.

 

[jtr1962]

4 ) Sedentary lifestyle because of office jobs, automobiles, TV, and computers.
5 ) Ingesting growth hormones in the foods we eat.
6 ) General acceptance of "fat" as just another body type (in essence this amounts to throwing in the towel on weight loss).
7 ) Easy availability and low cost of highly addictive "snack" foods.
8 ) Jerry Springer (i.e. he needs a steady stream of "guests", and they are seemingly always morbidly obese). Maybe he pays people to fatten up.

 

[sechs]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/meat/

They'll be replaying this episode next week where I am. Some additional interesting material.

 

[Mercutio]

You forgot a few, jtr:

One is an issue of climate. When I was in college I knew a guy from Florida who swore up and down that midwesterners eat to entertain themselves because they can't go outside all winter. Ever since I've observed that, and there seems to be some truth to it.

One of the wonderful side effects of my depression has been weight gain. Not just a little. A lot. 60lbs? Could be a medicinal side-effect, could be that depression has rendered me even more sedentary, could just be that I eat more than I used to.

Like it or not, food is one of the very few things that might give someone comfort against the joylessness of life. Food is actually a socially acceptable binge. At least time not altering my brain chemistry or killing neurons.

One more thing, while jtr continues to hate on the circumfrentially challenged (#6, specifically): Fat people are one of the few groups of people that it's still pretty much OK to mistreat. No one blatantly makes racist or sexist remarks any more, but I've had people, in professional settings, tell me to "lose some weight fatass", or ask me "how I let myself get like that."

It gets really fucking old. Walk a mile in my shoes before you talk about what I should or shouldn't look like, what I should or shouldn't eat.

 

[Fushigi]

Atkins goes likes this:

1st 2 weeks: Try for <20 carbs a day. Diet will be pretty much any meat, anything dairy except milk, and most vegetables (pretty much anything green, onions, etc. No potatoes and minimal carrots/beets since they have natural sugars/starches).
After 2 weeks: Slowly add carbs in until you achieve the balance where you're losing an appropriate amount of weight, like 1.5#/week. The # of carbs/day will vary by person so there's no set formula.
Then: Maintain that lifestyle until you reach your goal.
Finally: Add in a few more carbs so your wieght stays constant.

If you 'fall off the wagon', just start over again.

Everyone who complains about the unhealthiness of the plan is typically focused solely on the 1st 2 weeks, the 'induction' period. They also talk about the ingestion of so much fat, but fail to realize that you can still trim the fat off your cut of meat or eat otherwise lean meats.

Atkins primary issue, BTW, was with the way we have processed our foods and changed our dietary habits since around 1890. Looking back, there were very few overweight/obese people in those days. The use of processed grains and refined sugars, etc. are what he believed were truly responsible for our weight gain, high triglycerides & cholesterol, etc. Even more so than our sedentary lifestyle.

I would encourage anyone interested to spend the $8 and buy the paperback. Even if you don't do the diet it's interesting reading and fully explains the pros and cons of the diet. And why the medical industry doesn't support it.

 

[jtr1962]

One more thing, while jtr continues to hate on the circumfrentially challenged (#6, specifically): Fat people are one of the few groups of people that it's still pretty much OK to mistreat. No one blatantly makes racist or sexist remarks any more, but I've had people, in professional settings, tell me to "lose some weight fatass", or ask me "how I let myself get like that."

It gets really fucking old. Walk a mile in my shoes before you talk about what I should or shouldn't look like, what I should or shouldn't eat.

I'm not one to just run around calling people names. My father is about 100 pounds overweight. My mother and I have explained to him numerous times why it would be good for him to lose weight, especially in light of the fact that he had a heart attack in 1989, and is essentially being kept alive by pills. He either doesn't want to hear it, or is incapable of changing his diet, and the fact that he seems (to me anyway) to be chronically depressed doesn't help. Maybe if he did something about his depression (which he won't even admit he has), the pounds would come off of their own accord. His mother was no lightweight, either, although I suspect in her case it was specifically to repulse men because she had been abused as a child, rather than because of depression. Anyway, she was 5'6" and an easy 325 pounds. Unfortunately, obesity runs on my father's side of the family.

Does depression cause weight gain? Most likely it can as the food replaces whatever is missing in your life. I have a cousin who has a combination of mental problems (schizophrenia, depression, low self-esteem, maybe a few more) who at one point reached 600 pounds. That's not a typo-and the guy is only 5' tall (my mother's side is really short, even the men, although she is a good height - 5' 2"). Anyway, given your other problems, I'm certainly not about to berate you for being overweight. You will be healthier and feel better if you lost weight, but in your present state that may be difficult or impossible. I've been fighting to get rid of 20 or 25 extra pounds myself, so I can symphathize with someone who has 100+ to lose. In fact, I have the dubious distinction now of being the fattest of my siblings. My sister was for most of her life (borderline obese), but now is a well-muscled 140 pounds (she's 5'6"), and my brother was always as thin as a rail (5'9", 138 pounds). I'm the same height but heavier even at my proper weight (160-165 pounds) because I have more muscle mass, but unfortunately my weight has been floating in the 180s for far too long. I lost five pounds because of the flu, and my stomach shrunk so I'm taking advantage of it with smaller portions. Hopefully sometime in the summer I'll be a proper weight, and then I'll just have to maintain it.

All that being said, there are plenty of people in this country with no mental problems or other excuses who are not only overweight, but in many cases twice what they should weigh. This is really what bothers me, not ten or twenty extra pounds. Besides the plethora of health problems that obesity causes, it just plain makes you look physically unattractive. I've seen and heard about obese people being depressed because they can't find a significant other, yet none have ever bothered to ask if perhaps their excessive girth was repulsive to the opposite sex, and maybe the reason why they have nobody. It becomes a vicious circle-you're fat because you're depressed and have nobody, but the reason you have nobody is because you're fat. And I'll even say this problem is worse for men than women. There are men who love fat women for whatever reason, but no significant numbers of women who like the way fat men look.

In closing I'd have to say that lack of physical activity is the major reason people are overweight. The human body is set up to make a diet of 3000 or so calories per day feel satisfying. Unfortunately, most people don't do near enough physical activity to burn that many calories (I only do when I cycle 20 miles a day, or do a lot of work in the garden, neither of which I do consistently). Therefore, we need to cut calories to about 2000 to 2500, but this doesn't satisfy us so we eat more and gain weight. In essence, we're fighting evolution. Having society set up so more people are forced to walk long distances to go about their business (i.e. less car use, more public transportation, more living in urban areas) would help quite a bit. Sure, there are obese people in NYC, but the percentage is a heck of a lot less than in suburban areas. Indeed, every time I watch something on suburban high schools, most boys and every girl is overweight. In the city, the percentage of overweight kids is also increasing, but it's nowhere near this bad. Clearly something needs to be done on a national level besides making fat jokes (something I do not approve of).

 

[jtr1962]

Atkins primary issue, BTW, was with the way we have processed our foods and changed our dietary habits since around 1890. Looking back, there were very few overweight/obese people in those days. The use of processed grains and refined sugars, etc. are what he believed were truly responsible for our weight gain, high triglycerides & cholesterol, etc. Even more so than our sedentary lifestyle.

A good point. One thing I heard about was the use of fructose instead of glucose as a sweetener. And then you have all sorts of additives and preservatives which may interact in as yet unknown ways to contribute to weight gain. Finally, most processed foods these days are far too soft. The chewing reflex is one thing which satiates our hunger as much as the actual ingestion of food. Most food these days leaves a lot to be desired in that department, which is one reason I'm enjoying food less and less besides the "processed" taste. Believe or not, I sampled a bit of bird seed, and that left me more satisfied than most snack foods in large part because it actually had to be ground down (no, I haven't started chirping yet). I guess nuts are an acceptable substitute, although I don't plan to eat the shell. :wink:

Don't underestimate the contribution of our sedentary lifestyle to obesity. Why do most people get fat as they get older? Mainly because they move less but eat the same. Think back to how much walking you may have done as a kid and compare it to what you do now, for example. In many causes, you'll be shocked (I still try to get in at least a mile a day of walking, preferably more). What about other activity? A half hour at a gym three times a week (common for many adults) doesn't begin to substitute for the myriad forms of daily acitivity most people did as a child. Sadly, even our children are emulating an adult lifestyle these days, and as a result becoming overweight like many adults. In my opinion, there is no good reason for children to spend hours surfing the Internet, playing video games, or watching TV. Parents should limit these activities for their children (and themselves) to more reasonable levels, and encourage more interaction with the real world. Unfortunately, in many cases the real world of suburban life is very boring compared to these other things, so this is yet another reason to encourage a migration back to urban areas.

 

[sechs]

One thing I heard about was the use of fructose instead of glucose as a sweetener.

And what's wrong with using fructose instead of glucose as a sweetener?

Fructose is sweeter, so you don't have to use as much of it...,

 

[jtr1962]

And what's wrong with using fructose instead of glucose as a sweetener?

Fructose is sweeter, so you don't have to use as much of it...,

Increased LDL, uric acid, and triglyceride levels in some people, and I think it's more prone to end up as fat than excess glucose. It's also slower to metabolize than glucose, which is both a plus and minus. On the plus side, there's less insulin response. On the minus side, it can't be used as rapidly for "quick energy", which is the primary purpose of sugar. What isn't used right away either comes out in urine (the more desireable response) or ends up as fat.

Basic Fructan Info

Dieting Myths

Top 10 Fad Diets

Why People Are Getting Fatter

A Guide to Using Healthy Sweeteners

 

[sechs]

I think that you need to do a little more research. Fructose is a simple structural isomer of glucose. Most cells in your body have as enzyme to convert between the two sugars.

Sugar, as always, is a fat free food.

 

[CougTek]

Sugar, as always, is a fat free food.

You don't only become fat by eating fat food. You become fat because you intake more energy than you spend daily. Sugar, while technically not being fat in itself, becomes stored in your organism in form of fat when you take more than you burn.

 

[sechs]

Actually, it's pretty difficult to take sugars and other carbohydrates and convert them into fats. Your body uses enough energy on a regular basis to use most sugars that you ingest; extra often comes out in sweat and urine.

What can and does happen is that you don't burn fat, and end up storing it elsewhere. Since those cells which can utilise fat for energy will not so do without using glucose at the same time, you need to ingest carbohydrates to lose fat.

 

[e_dawg]

sechs, you are forgetting about the fact that sugars and carbs are the most efficient triggers of insulin release in the body. This is not a good thing. Insulin is a powerful anabolic hormone that promotes storage of glycogen and fat.

Allow me to recycle the post I wrote on carbs, sugars, and glycemic index/load in the "Getting into shape" thread:

http://www.storageforum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=33932#33932

 

[sechs]

Insulin has little directly to do with fat. It causes the uptake of glucose by cells. Yes, cells in your liver will make glycogen with some of the glucose they take up, but they will only make so much of this -- it is regularly used to certain extent.

Unless you are on an unusual diet, your body doesn't convert a lot of carbohydrate into fat.

Insulin also isn't a steroid hormone, so it doesn't build muscle; it's a protein. It is both anabolic and catabolic in action.

If you want to lose weight, you should eat fewer calories, eat more often, and exercise more.