Buying 17" LCD monitors

[time]

Well, it's less than six weeks since I complained that LCD monitors were still too expensive in Oz. Since then, prices have dropped like stones (and I suspect will continue to do so).

I'm now looking for 17" displays for business use (looks like 19" will be the same price inside a few months). I can get these brands:

Acer
Aopen
AG Neovo
Benq
Fujitsu
Gigabyte
IBM
LG
Philips
Mitsubishi
NEC
Panasonic
Samsung
Viewsonic

A 3-year pickup warranty is standard in Australia - except probably for Dell, but in any case, why would I want to add more aggravation to my life?

I'm only interested in DVI equipped units, so that leaves out Aopen here. Similarly, the Gigabyte DVI version has no ETA.

Sony just makes me laugh. Let's stick in a bigger lamp and boast about how bright they are - too bad about the rest of the specs. Does anyone buy this overpriced rubbish? I've yet to see one for sale.

I didn't get past the pricing with IBM.

As I said earlier, Samsung is too expensive in this country - and hardly any of their current models have DVI. The suppliers I've checked aren't bothering to carry stock for most models. Same for NEC.

Panasonic is also expensive and I'm not sure what you get for the extra money. Plus I have a policy of avoiding Panasonic-branded products that I always regret breaking.

Viewsonic bit me with really poor warranty service a few years ago (had to call Singapore to even talk to anyone). And their stuff looks pricey without any improvement in specs.

I used a few Philips units last month and I have no complaints. Well made with good specs for the price, including zero defect warranty. Unfortunately, the price has stayed up and I don't have wholesale access - they're uncommon in Australia.

The cheapest DVI-capable AG Neovo 17" is the same price as their 19" F-419. :roll: Meaning it's way overpriced at more than US$300.

LG models were frighteningly expensive, but the newest ones aren't too bad. Probably about US$265. I'm prepared to overlook the poor service reputation that LG has acquired here.

"Mitsubishi Electric" branded monitors may or may not be NEC - it's impossible to say. Their latest pricing is probably about the same as LG.

The Fujitsu offering looked interesting; zero defect warranty etc for US$250. However, I've since realized that Fujitsu sold their LCD panel business earlier this year - which is why they're now being marked down. I'll still consider them if anyone can put in a good word ...

Finally, we get to the value end of the market. There's Benq and Acer, perversely once the same company. The Benqs I've seen didn't impress me, but your standards change when things become cheap enough.

The one I'm focusing on is the Acer 1715SMD, a usually analog-only monitor with DVI tacked on: 12mS, 500:1, 300cd/m2, 150/135 viewing angles for US$220.

After all these ramblings, what does everyone think?

 

[Tannin]

We have been selling the Acer one you mention with great satisfaction. (At least I think it must be that model: they have about three in 17 inch:

* A slightly cheaper one that is OK. Just OK.
* The one we sell which is ugly (crappy black-silver colour scheme, flimsy-seeming but in practice perfectly practical oval-shaped plastic base)
* A new one which is supposed to be a few ms faster or a bit cheaper or something or other I forget. I said we would stick with our current version because it has excellent picture quality and that is the only thing that actally matters.

Zero failures, noticably better picture quality than any others we have looked at in the sensible price range.

Mitsubishi LCDs are no longer manufactured by Benq, alas, as the old Benq made Mitsubishis were truly excellent. Their current ones are sourced elsewhere and a rather patchy bunch. Some seem good, others are lacking in clarity.

Benq screens also seem to vary from model to model. The 17 inch ones we tried were just OK, we did get one 19 inch model that seemed really nice on a quick inspection.

Phillips don't exist any more. It's just a brand name owned by ... er ... samsung? Hyndai? Can't remember. An Asian company with markedly better commitment to quality control than Phillips ever had. (Which isn't saying much.)

PS. I don't understand what the point of DVI is. It's supposed to offer better picture quality but I've tried it out a few times and couldn't see any difference at all. Does it only provide better quality at very high resolutions (that no affordable current LCD does anyway) or if the DACs (at either end of the cable) are crappy? Maybe my Matrox habit makes the point moot or something. Anyway, I can't remember if our excellent Acer 17 inch LCDs have DVI or not. Nor do I care.

 

[Tannin]

I remembered. Phillips is LG. (I think.)

 

[P5-133XL]

What, He Speaks!

I thought that Tannin had long since gone to visit the Gods, never to return.

 

[paugie]

can you give us the 17" Acer model you say you like?

Hello Tannin,
Acer is doing a promo here in the Philippines. Give them a working 17" CRT and they slash 4,000 pesos off the list price of some LCD models.
Your post is one of the first things I've read saying something good about Acer LCD's. So if you could give me the model number of the one you are happy with, I could try matching it up with the model numbers they are selling. Then maybe I could get a good deal.
thanks.

 

[mangyDOG]

I have been selling the Mitsubishi DV175 and DV195 and have been pretty happy with the display quality.

What I am after personally is a larger LCD monitor. I have been thinking about the Mitsubishi DiamondPoint UX21LCD professional screen, as it has a very good price point against similar sized models from Samsung and Phillips. I tried a google search for reviews on this monitor and came up blank, has anyone had a chance to check one of these screens out?

Cheers,
mangyDOG

 

[LiamC]

Don't get me started on LG's "service" :x

Most LG panels use 6-bit TN film displays. OK for browsing or games. Crap for colour work. For serious work, you would be better served with a proper 8-bit panel. IN the links below there is some interesting stuff on specifications and how marketing spin them.

Aside: Come the revolution, those in marketing will be first up against the wall.

These I found useful

http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2415

http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2332
NOTE: apparently the 1905 started out using a Samsung panle and now uses an AUO--so the review may no longer be relevant.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/19inch-3.html

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/response-8.html

http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2289

 

[time]

Thanks for the links. Although I was aware that faster panels were associated with shrinking viewing angles, I didn't know why, or about the massive reduction in color gamut.

As far as I can see, virtually all 17" panels are now 6-bit TN, with 19" following fast. So it appears that apart from response times, we're actually going backward 3-4 years. :evil:

I enjoyed the Xbit articles, but thought they made the Anandtech articles look like amateur hour. Apart from a lack of suitable equipment, Anandtech insisted that brightness was the key spec, while contrast and viewing angles were irrelevant. They also claimed that you should run monitors at as high a brightness as possible, mitigating this with bright room lighting. They ran their tests with monitors at maximum brightness. :roll: And I couldn't help but notice that Dell products received huge plugs in each of their last six monitor tests - even when the review was about a different brand. Last year's Dell had less than half the measured contrast of some other brands, yet still received their accolades and editor's choice!

Anyway, I've ordered just one Acer to try - it looks like there's not much point spending more in the 17" segment at least.

 

[LiamC]

Let us know how it performs. I must admit to a staggering distrust/dislike of Acer products as that (apart from a brief Dell fling) is what has been used at work for the last 8 years plus, and the vast majority of Acer 17" & 19" CRT's have vied with each other in the "lets make this text fuzzy" stakes--and taken the trifecta to boot! Honestly, this LG 76i I am using (circa '98-'99--since the DV19NF died ) is better! Their Veritons aren't much chop either. Java/WebSphere dev on a 1.6GHz Willamette P4 is painful.

 

[Buck]

Dell monitors are very bright, and in my opinion, that is their achillies heel. I want contrast and color reproduction, not a bright light.

Time, as far as your quest goes for 17" LCDs, I'd skip the idea and move straight to 19" LCDs. Both usually have the same native resolution (1280 x 1024), which makes objects too small on 17" panels from my experience. My panel preference, in order of brand favorites:

Samsung
AG Neovo
AOpen

 

[ddrueding]

Dell monitors are very bright, and in my opinion, that is their achillies heel. I want contrast and color reproduction, not a bright light.

Time, as far as your quest goes for 17" LCDs, I'd skip the idea and move straight to 19" LCDs. Both usually have the same native resolution (1280 x 1024), which makes objects too small on 17" panels from my experience. My panel preference, in order of brand favorites:

Samsung
AG Neovo
AOpen

I'll second all that. I'm running on a 191T+ right now an it's a great screen.

 

[timwhit]

If a monitor is very bright, can't you turn down the brightness level so that it is acceptable?

 

[i]

If a monitor is very bright, can't you turn down the brightness level so that it is acceptable?

Buck has tried.

I'm very happy with my Dell 2001FP though. It just boils down to preferences.

 

[Handruin]

I just got my 2001FP and I have to agree, it's very nice. I don't find the brightness to be over powering at all. I was afraid that at 1600x1200 the fonts would be too small, but they actually look fine.

 

[Buck]

I just got my 2001FP and I have to agree, it's very nice. I don't find the brightness to be over powering at all. I was afraid that at 1600x1200 the fonts would be too small, but they actually look fine.

Must be my aging eyes. :blue:

 

[Handruin]

Well, let me change my comment slightly. The monitor is definitly brighter than the CRT's I use at work. Yesterday I was home all day so I didn't have much to compare to. Today I just got home from work and I'm noticing the brightness a bit more than I noticed yesterday. With that said, I still don't think it's too bringht to use.

I am noticing the monitor sits taller than my others. Even with the base lowered all the way, it sits taller than I'm used to.

 

[Fushigi]

Anyone have any experience with the Acer AL1912B 19" LCD? I'm not even really in the market for an LCD but at $270 shipped and no rebates to muck with I am sorely tempted.

 

[Mercutio]

No, but the Scepter Xg9 19" costs about the same and is really nice.

 

[time]

I don't understand what the point of DVI is ... Does it only provide better quality at very high resolutions (that no affordable current LCD does anyway) or if the DACs (at either end of the cable) are crappy?

I'd guess your assessment is spot on. The issue is interference, resulting in 'worms' and possibly a jittery picture. The worms were particularly bad on the aforementioned Philips monitors - the text came alive in ways you really don't want to see ...

It's far better on this Acer 1715SMD, but still obvious if you display certain test patterns etc.

 

[CityK]

At low resolution, I find the difference between VGA and DVI to be noticeable but only in a very subtle way. Specifically, I find that if you use DVI for an extended period of time and then switch back to a VGA connection, you'll find yourself wondering what happened to the crisp text and overall sharpness of the display.

 

[time]

Well, we've had a sample Acer 1715SMD here for a couple of days now, and it's shaped up pretty well.

• One stuck pixel (green) - 5/6 of the way across and halfway up. Doesn't particularly bother me.
• Includes a DVI cable - this is worth quite a bit here because I haven't found a cheap wholesale source.
• Viewing angle is not great, but not terrible either.
• Color rendition is way better than expected.

Out of the box, contrast was set to 50, brightness to 100, and color temperature to "Cool". The picture wasn't very good.

After a fair bit if fiddling while gazing at test patterns, I came up with:

Color temperature = User
Red = 100
Green = 93
Blue = 90

With Brightness below 50, you lose significant detail. Raising it above 50 only increases the halo, so I'd suggest setting it to 45-50 and leaving it there unless the Sun is shining on it.

Above 50, Contrast costs you differentiation between brighter shades. Lowering it too far causes color shifts. However, dropping it to zero does get the glare down enough for me to consider using it in a dimly lit room. For daytime use I've settled on 33.

I'm currently fiddling with the 'Focus' control, which seems to achieve much the same effect as ClearType?

The above impressions were made with the VGA input, not the DVI.

My daughter sneered at it for graphics work, but agreed it's better than other low cost screens. You're never in any doubt that it's an LCD monitor, but overall, it's a winner - particularly at that price. :aok:

 

[iGary]

Mitsubishi LCDs are no longer manufactured by Benq, alas, as the old Benq made Mitsubishis were truly excellent. Their current ones are sourced elsewhere and a rather patchy bunch. Some seem good, others are lacking in clarity.

I'm not aware of the Benq-Mitsubishi connection, but I suspect that in recent times Benq was selected to manufacture Mitsi's (and maybe NEC's) consumer grade LCDs, as NEC/Mitsubishi has decided to concentrate on manufacturing their mid-range and upscale LCD monitors in-house.


In the beginning, the top-of-the-line Mitsi LCDs were manufactured completely by Mitsubishi. Then, for the past 2 years, Mitsi LCD monitors have been manufactured by the Mitsubishi + NEC joint venture. Mitsubishi LCDs and NEC LCDs were then made from the same components, which were mostly NEC components. Nowadays, NEC/Mitsubishi an independent company with their parents -- NEC and Mitsubishi -- filling the role as investors, only. This NEW company is now called NEC Displays. (Yes, it's confusing.)


The original idea of the joint venture was that NEC was pretty big in the LCD marketplace but fading fast in the CRT marketplace. Mitsubishi was top dog in the CRT marketplace but seemed to be permanently stuck somewhere in the middle with respects to the burgeoning LCD marketplace. The joint venture would marry their respective marketing, warehousing, and manufacturing efforts -- starting off in North America, then worldwide if everything worked out. Well, everything worked out well.

Phillips don't exist any more. It's just a brand name owned by ... er ... samsung? Hyndai? Can't remember. An Asian company with markedly better commitment to quality control than Phillips ever had. (Which isn't saying much.)

Philips (just one "L" in there) definitely exists. They are a multi-national conglomerate. The last I heard, Philips is simply using LG Electronics (of South Korea) as an OEM.

PS. I don't understand what the point of DVI is... Does it only provide better quality at very high resolutions (that no affordable current LCD does anyway) or if the DACs (at either end of the cable) are crappy?...

DVI is digital all the way from the frame buffer on your graphics card to the LCD display panel. There is no A/D or D/A conversion occurring with a DVI-connected "digital" display (LCD, LED, etc).


Conversion to analogue will soften the visual display by some amount. Since the Matrox DACs are quite sharp at the resolution you are using, the sampling of the analogue level signal by the A/D converter in the LCD monitor is not converting noise (which will induce a milky look to the visuals), because whatever noise is there is not perceivable.

No, but the Scepter Xg9 19" costs about the same and is really nice.

When I was looking 19-inch LCD monitors earlier this year, I looked at Sceptre, AG Neuvo, and some others. I recall liking the Sceptre quite a bit, but I knew that the glossy surface on the display panel would -- in my environment -- cause problems with reflections. The 19-inch AG Neuvo I bought has a low-reflective "etched" display panel surface. The "etching" does reduce the contrast a very slight amount, but it is worth it.

 

[Tannin]

Bit late, but the Acer I like is the AL1715. It does have DVI, I see. I'll try to find a spare moment to recheck the difference if any soon. Obviously, not on the Matrox G450 it usually attaches to.

Also, we got a 19 inch AL1913 just now. Great price, but not an outstanding monitor by any means. In fact, on the whole, I'd rather the smaller AL1715. It's crisper and all-round easier on the eye. The 19 inch one has the same resolution and looks a bit dotty, plus it lacks the solidity (the colours squrm around on you, so to speak, where with a really good TFT they are rock solid. No DVI on the 1913 either.

 

[Tannin]

Oh, and the 1915 uses one of those power brick things, where the 1715 has a proper 240V plug in the back of it.

For 19 inch, I'll see if there is a higher-end Acer model or else go back to Mitsubishi, I think.

 

[Tannin]

PS to my PS. Great ingo, Igary. Thanks.

 

[Tannin]

I mean info

 

[paugie]

wrong model

arrgghhh! the Acers they have on promo here are the 1714 and the 1751.
No 1715. I am sorry for me.

 

[Handruin]

Anyone use the AOpen F90JS 19" LCD?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824174024

Active Matrix, TFT LCD
Screen Size 19"
Display Type SXGA
Maximum Resolution 1280x1024
Recommended Resolution 1280x1024
Viewing Angle 140°(H) / 140°(V)
Pixel Pitch 0.294mm
Brightness 250 cd/m2
Contrast Ratio 500:1
Response Time 16ms

Newegg has it for $220 after mail-in rebate... I was considering it for my sister. The user reviews on newegg are positive, and I can't find any reviews on the net about this panel.

 

[i]

The user reviews on newegg are positive...

Aren't they always though? Sure, some are less positive than others sometimes, but you'll never read "fightin' mad" reviews on newegg. Then again, if there were a lot of people unhappy with this product, there would be at least a few negative write-ups at other sites, right? I can't find any.

I found a quick review posted by a new owner. That was the best I could find.

Why don't you post a review here, Handy?

(After you've become the guinea pig. :wink: )

 

[Mercutio]

Handy, I *really* like the Scepter Xg9 19" models from Newegg. There are two models, maybe a $20 price difference between them. The one with the faster response time is a little less bright according to spec, but I've really had good luck with those displays.

 

[Handruin]

I did see your comment regarding the scepter, and I looked at newegg and couldn't find the model you suggested...I must not have looked hard enough. When I search on scepter, it found nothing. However, now I've gone through the monitor list and found them...odd, my mistake.

My sister has $200 remaining for her budget, and she really wants an LCD due to limited space. I've been leaning towards the 17" dell for $200, but the AOpen seemed reasonable for $20 more being slightly larger...

The Scepter's are a bit more than the AOpen in price (although I'll have to deal with a MIR for AOpen). I can't say if it's better or worse, but I do trust your opinion on the Scepter. There are several 19" models that vary in price. At first glance I don't see a difference:

SCEPTRE X9g-Komodo VII Black 19" 12ms LCD Monitor - Retail $280

SCEPTRE X9g-NagaII Black 19" 12ms LCD Monitor - Retail $310

SCEPTRE X9g-GAMER Black 19" 12ms LCD Monitor - Retail $320

SCEPTRE X9g-Naga III Black 19" 8ms LCD Monitor - Retail $335 (this one has the obvious difference)

 

[Mercutio]

Oh. The Sceptre monitors are out of budget, then.

I and the customers I've given them to have been quite happy with the $280 19" model. Mainly, the thing that recommends them to me is the combination of low cost, good dot pitch (some of the cheapie monitors have .28!) and excellent brightness and contrast specs. Oh, and DVI support. Always a plus, that.

In your sister's case it's hardly important, but DVI is a minimum criteria for me.

The other low-cost guy I've looked at and liked is the Polyview V17E. $202. It's the cheapest DVI 17" LCD on Newegg. I've bought about a dozen of them. I've liked them better than the Mag and Viewsonic units I've seen in big electronics stores, but not as well as the Sceptres.

 

[i]

When I search on scepter, it found nothing.

Scepter or sceptre?

 

[Handruin]

Heh. I copied and pasted the name from Merc's post, 4 posts up from here. So it was not entirely my fault. I should have been searching on sceptre, not scepter. Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't even notice.

 

[Handruin]

I'll see if my sis can squeeze out a few extra bucks out of her budget for a sceptre.