Council rates

Tannin

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
4,448
Location
Huon Valley, Tasmania
Website
www.redhill.net.au
jtr1962 in another thread on another topic ... said:
... often much higher real estate taxes in the suburbs. For example, our real estate taxes are under $4000 a year. A similar house in one of the suburbs, either Long Island or New Jersey, might have real estate taxes three or four times as high.

Am I right in assuming that "real estate taxes" means the same thing as what I would call "council rates"? I.e., the tax charged by the local government body (city, town, district-level government, I mean) from which they provide services like mending the roads and collecting the garbage.

If so, howinhell can inner New York rates be so crazy high? I mean, I reckon I pay way too much and my rates average out at about $1000 per year - that's maybe $900 US.

So: are property taxes as high as this common in the US?

If so, what do they pay for?

In Oz, we pay:

Federal taxes - mostly income tax, excise on tobacco and alcohol, GST on everything - for defence, education, health, major highways, and most other stuff.

State taxes - mostly stamp duty on purchase of real estate, some gambling taxes, and a few other odds and ends - for a range of services, including public transport, police, the actual on-ground delivery of health and education (which are largely paid for by the federal government, which collects lots of tax and hands some of it over to the states), main roads, and other stuff.

Local rates - a straight duty on property owners - which pays for local roads, garbage collection, and a variety of minor social services.

How does it work in the US?
 

Stereodude

Not really a
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
10,865
Location
Michigan
So: are property taxes as high as this common in the US?
Yes
If so, what do they pay for?
Public schooling (K-12) mostly.
How does it work in the US?
  • Federal Income Tax
  • State Income Tax*
  • State Sales Tax*
  • City Income Tax*
  • City Property Tax
*Not all places have these. Most States have Sales and Income Tax, but a few don't have one or the other. City Income Tax is fairly uncommon (at least in Michigan) unless you live in a large / old city like Detroit or Pontiac.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
Our system is pretty similar except the local property taxes are assessed based on property value, rather than income, and pay for the bulk of education ( along with other things such as garbage collection, public transit, roads, etc. ). That's mainly the reason they're so high. While state and federal income taxes pay part of education, most schools are funded primarily via property taxes. Ours are low compared to outlying suburbs with lower population density. For example, my sister's house in worth less, and she pays more than twice what we do. I have an aunt in NJ with a modest home who pays over $10,000 annually. The major reason has to do with ever increasing education costs. This is in part due to the wrong IMO emphasis on smaller class sizes as improving learning ( and yet the schools seem to get worse every year ), as well as schools providing pre-school and afterschool programs. These programs are really a form of taxpayer-subsidized day care rather than education. They didn't even exist to any great extent when I was in school. Added to that is the fact that school aid from both the federal and state governments has been dropping for years. Ditto for mass transit aid. All those things mean higher local taxes.

Yes, it's crazy. The one thing which really needs to be gotten under control are the ludicrous costs of housing. Even modest housing here can more or less eat up the entire take-home pay of an average job.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,297
Location
I am omnipresent
In the area around Chicago, there are county and municipal-level sales taxes. Almost every town has them. They're a fact of life.

As for what we're paying for, the basic answer is probably a lot more infrastructure than you guys have down in Oz. We drive everyplace, litigate at the drop of a hat, need police on every corner and offer public education to a huge and diverse population, with all the difficulties that entails.

My parents pay $14,000 a year in property taxes.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,931
Location
USA
When I owned a house back around 2004, my property taxes were around $3500/year for central mass in a non-fancy town of Fitchburg.

If MaxBurn chimes in, you'll see a slightly different view on property tax for the state of New Hampshire (just north of where I live). I believe they do not have traditional sales taxes on retail commerce and instead increase property tax to offset this.
 

Tannin

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
4,448
Location
Huon Valley, Tasmania
Website
www.redhill.net.au
Thanks guys. Interesting. A few more points to note/ponder.

Council rates here are also generally calculated on property value, but with different rates depending on land use. For example, my shop is worth only a bit more than my house, but I pay roughly triple the rates, because they slug businesses really hard. (What the hell is their plan, do they want to drive all the small employers out of business?)

In Oz, state governments are responsible for education, but in reality they don't hane nearly enough money and rely on the federal government for (at a guess) two-thirds or three-quarters of the funding, either directly through tied grants ("here is some money. You will spend it this way") or indirectly through general-purpose federal >> state grants largely distributing GST money.

Now, about those huge property taxes you pay. Where is the justice there? JTR (just taking him as an example) has cost the city zero for education (he has no children) but the city slugs him $4000 a year to educate other people's children! That sucks. He has done the right thing, he is not contributing to population growth or urban sprawl, he is not spewing out lots of babies that cost a fortune to educate and then consume resources and pump out ever-more carbon to wreck the whole damn planet ..... so how come he is forced to pay for the selfish, irresponsible ones? That's backwards!

(We have the same idiot arrangement here, of course, whioh is why we too have housing prices so high that you can't afford a home unless you already own one, and a declining quality of life.)
 

Tannin

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
4,448
Location
Huon Valley, Tasmania
Website
www.redhill.net.au
Merc, I'd have thought the infrastructure levels are probably pretty similar, certainly by the time you account for distances and economies of scale. Last time I noticed, Oz income taxes were significantly higher (but there is only one - no State income taxes, and I think local government income tax would actually be unconstitutional) and then there is the 10% GST on absolutely everything.

I'm guessing that our higher income tax more-or-less balances the lower council rates and lack of state/local income taxes. No doubt there are some comparitive figures for total taxation and total government spend in (say) US/Oz/Canada/Germany/Japan. It would be interesting to revisit them - it's been maybe 20 or 30 years since I thought about this stuff much.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,931
Location
USA
When I was in school as a younger kid, I remember this very topic came up. The school was going to cancel the performing arts (music, drama, choir) because of lack of funds. The issue was that the older generation who had already gone through school and who had their kids go through school no longer wanted to continue to support the education system for the same complaint you made. There are of course many people like JTR who do not have kids with equal complaint.

Does that mean my parents were irresponsible for having my sister and I and putting us through public school? They paid their taxes and worked hard during those years (and many beyond). If people stop paying for the public school after they're done then something else has to make up for the cost. If it isn't property tax, then state and federal would pick up which means increase taxes to the masses. If it isn't taxes, it means reducing costs which usually translates into loss in education.

There are certainly issues with the quality of schools because they are based on property value support. A school in a wealthy town certainly has a lot more resources to offer their kids, but it also means the people who live in that town will also have to make a lot more money to pay for their house, and also for their taxes. This is certainly viewed as an unfair for inner city kids who should have access to a good education even if their family is of a lower income.

In your example, I'd argue that JTR did not do the right thing. You know he's a smart guy with his head on straight. If anything I'd rather see him reproduce and have children with his knowledge and values than many of the planet that decides to reproduce.
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,931
Location
USA
While making myself lunch this afternoon I poked through my bills and was reminded of another tax item that is not fair. In the state of Mass we have a tax know as the excise tax. It's a tax on your motor vehicle (and I think travel trailers) at 2.5% of valuation. Taxing me on the property is fine, but what I don't agree with is that the tax is based on the value of the vehicle. There are multiple things I don't agree with here. First is that someone else determines the value of my vehicle based on some market and it's not easily (if at all) negotiable. The value is almost always lower than what the books say if I were to sell or trade it in, but regardless it's not considerably lower.

I also don't see why the value of my car should dictate how much in taxes I spend. I likely have a car that costs more than the average. That was my choice, but my vehicle is also fairly safe and doesn't weigh any more than the average (likely, I haven't checked).

The reason I mention weight is that since the US is heavily biased to people with SUVs and AWD trucks, etc...those vehicles are likely to cause more infrastructure wear and tear than my average sedan. The excise tax money goes towards a general fund, but tax money is still used to repair roads and service vehicles. If the tax was based on vehicle weight and safety (or lack there of), then I think that's more appropriate. A tax based on weight might be an additional incentive to drive a smaller and/or lighter vehicle.
 

Pradeep

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
3,845
Location
Runny glass
The reason I mention weight is that since the US is heavily biased to people with SUVs and AWD trucks, etc...those vehicles are likely to cause more infrastructure wear and tear than my average sedan. The excise tax money goes towards a general fund, but tax money is still used to repair roads and service vehicles. If the tax was based on vehicle weight and safety (or lack there of), then I think that's more appropriate. A tax based on weight might be an additional incentive to drive a smaller and/or lighter vehicle.

In New York, cars have the same registration costs (once every two years for a sticker that you put in your front window.

However, for a pickup truck, when you get commercial plates, you choose how much you want to be able to haul in terms of GWM, and pay the appropriate fee. So in that aspect, they tax more for heavier vehicles that presumably cause more wear and tear on the roads.

Of course there is still a loophole where I believe anything over 8000lbs gets special exemptions in terms of taxes.

At least be thankful you aren't in Europe, at least in the UK they tax based on your engine displacement/CO2 emission levels.
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,742
Location
Horsens, Denmark
The reason I mention weight is that since the US is heavily biased to people with SUVs and AWD trucks, etc...those vehicles are likely to cause more infrastructure wear and tear than my average sedan. The excise tax money goes towards a general fund, but tax money is still used to repair roads and service vehicles. If the tax was based on vehicle weight and safety (or lack there of), then I think that's more appropriate. A tax based on weight might be an additional incentive to drive a smaller and/or lighter vehicle.

An interesting add-on to this is that the largest SUVs and trucks are exempt from almost all regulation, as they qualify (by weight) as commercial vehicles. I remember reading somewhere that most large SUVs (Escalade, etc) are so heavy, that they shouldn't be allowed on residential streets without a permit.
 

Pradeep

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
3,845
Location
Runny glass
Yup:

"Under the United States income tax code, the cost of vehicles over 6,000 pounds (2722 kg) can be deducted from income. This deduction was enacted decades ago to assist self-employed people in purchasing a vehicle for business use. The weight minimum was intended to limit the deduction to commercial-type trucks. For many years, the deduction remained below the average cost of a new vehicle, since large trucks were relatively inexpensive. Since it is a reduction in taxable income, the actual value of this deduction averages 30% of the price of the vehicle in question.

The increasing popularity of these vehicles in the last decade, however, pushed their average price to nearly double the average passenger car cost. In response, the 2002 Tax Act increased this "Section 179 depreciation deduction" to $75,000, and it rose again to $102,000 for the 2004 tax year. This is more than three times the current average cost of a passenger car in the United States and covers a large number of luxury models, including the Hummer H2. In late 2004, the deduction was again reduced to $25,000."

http://listing-index.ebay.com/cars/Hummer_H2.html

I won't lie, I'm looking at getting a used Surburban to haul the kiddies and all their stuff around. Two adults, two children and a large dog do not fit well in the Elantra. Doggie needs a third row of his own. We'd still have the Elantras for commuting at 30+ MPG. We'd have the 10-12mpg beast as an option. Sometimes we have to take both cars where as with the surburban we could all travel in the one.
 

Sol

Storage is cool
Joined
Feb 10, 2002
Messages
960
Location
Cardiff (Wales)
When I came to the UK I was a little stunned by the taxation. As a renter I was used to not paying any council tax in Australia (It's paid by the property owner) so going from that to almost 4000GBP/year for a 1 bedroom apartment in Cardiff was a bit of a shock (It's a shoebox. A very nice shoebox, with a view, but still...). I think most of that money goes to funding garbage collection (and recycling) and the police (which I suspect means that in part it pays for the insane numbers of surveillance cameras around here).

I think the income tax is a little bit lower than in Oz (Percentage wise, personally I pay significantly more) but 17% vat makes 10% gst look damn good.

I actually had planned on getting a car when I first came here but discovered that whilst I could get a crappy old car pretty cheap once I had it MOT'd and paid the road tax it wouldn't look so good. Road tax, unlike registration in Australia, doesn't include 3rd party insurance, but you have to have 3rd party insurance to drive so insurance companies keep the price of 3rd party insurance high. (Apparently governmental interference in this state of affairs would be a bad thing, the free market will somehow deal with private enterprises with a high cost of entry abusing a government monopoly... Any day now...) so insuring a car can easily cost far far more than the car does.
Add to that the price of petrol (over 1gbp a liter, occasionally around 2) which is also heavily taxed and the cost of parking and the bus starts to look really good. (In point of fact I rent out my car parking space at home and get enough to pay for all my local bus travel. If I wasn't limited to renting to people in my building I could get much more)

I guess the road tax and petrol prices are good in some respects though since they do get people to buy more efficient vehicles. Last I checked the Prius was the most fuel efficient car in the US, but just missed out on the top 10 in the UK.

Additionally there is the TV licence which pays for the BBC and the insane numbers of vaguely threatening letters of dubious legal accuracy the TV licensing board send me. I'd call them to tell them I don't watch TV but their phone number is premium rate and apparently they're unlikely to believe me anyway. (And now that I think about it the idea of someone who isn't even tempted to watch "I'm a Celebrity* get me out of here" and "Dancing with the Stars*" does seem vaguely preposterous...). I don't really have a problem with paying for the BBC and if the money was taken out of regular taxes I wouldn't care. I do have a pretty strong objection to paying for the threatening letters though so even if I couldn't just catch any BBC show I wanted to watch on IPlayer I'd rather buy the DVDs a year later than get a licence.

*Note that these are British celebrities and Stars which are subject to much looser definitions. These people are celebrities in much the same way that mobile phones are free.
 

Will Rickards

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
2,012
Location
Here
Website
willrickards.net
I'm in the city of Exton which is in Uwchlan Township which is in Chester County which is in the state of Pennsylvania (PA) which is in the USA.

On my income I pay:
- Federal Income Tax (7.86%)
- Federal Medicare Tax (1.56%)
- Federal Social Security Tax (6.63%)
- PA Income Tax (3.28%)
- PA Unemployment (about $3 per paycheck - negligible %)
- County Income Tax (1%)

If I worked in Philadelphia, which I sometimes do at client sites, I would also pay a City Income Tax.

On my house I pay:
City Tax (@15/year)
School District Taxes (@3050/year)
County Taxes (@475/year)
Sewer & Trash Tax to Uwchlan Township (@520/year)
which all told is @4000/year.

And then there is the monthly Home Owner's Association Fees of 75.
Which are low for my area but the association doesn't provide that many benefits.

Then there is home owner's insurance (@500/year).

For my cars there is a 36/year/car registration cost and an inspection/emissions test mandated by the state each year that goes along with that. That cost varies but let's put it at $60.

For goods and services there is generally a 6% state sales tax. Some things are higher like leases at 10%. In Philadelphia you pay 7% sales tax. I'm sure alcohol and tobacco are taxed higher but I don't know the rates for those.
 

udaman

Wannabe Storage Freak
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
1,209
Los Angeles has yet another budget crisis, even the formerly unheard of 'safe 4 life' government jobs are up for cutting. Popular Democratic/Liberal mayor is now doing the Republicans dirty work, laying of 1k city workers :D.

Just this week, the local school board pres, wants the city council to approve a $100/household property tax increase to (help) cover the shortfall in the school budget...just 'temporary' for 4yrs :).

Silly Californians approved a state bond for funding high-speed rail from SFC to LA, which will do minor improvement to traffic problems/travel...all for a nice jump in sales tax 1/2%, and then the silly people of Los Angeles approved a 1/4% increase in sales tax for 20yrs, to provide funds to improve transportation system (the cities will *try* to get matching Fed $$$ too!). So without the ability to tax even more on property owners, government tries to get creative to go around that limitation. Approves an increase of any number of local "fees" (taxes) for trash pickup, parking citations, or whatever to add to the revenue income. We now have a sales tax rate of 9.75%.

For some reason, unlike the Euro counterparts, it's not very popular to increase fuel taxes for automobiles (increased all other licensing 'fees' for auto's no problem :( )...we live by the cheap fuel/auto driven economy. If we had $5+/gal fuel prices right now, I think the whole country would dump most of those SUV's, and manufacturers would finally get moving on producing more fuel efficient auto.

In the EU, they don't have the same/as stringent pollution control requirements, it's easier for them to get higher mileage vehicles, and a good majority of lower income citizens are used to *small displacement/low torque* 3 or 4cyl engines/diesels. The poorest of lower income people who do have autos in American society, still drive very poor efficiency large displacement multi-cylinder vehicles...Americans love them-illegal aliens too> just like our addiction to guns :D.

@$5/gal, the behavior of *most* drivers I see, is completely unchanged from $2/gal...at every stop light on every freeway, pedal-to-the-metal, darting in and out of traffic in suicidal maneuvering. How many of the thousands of SUV/high performance luxury/sports car drivers that make up at least 50% of the traffic out there, are interested in conserving fuel...not one of them.


The famous tax payer (property tax>anti-run-away-growth-wasteful-government-spending) revolt of 1978
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_13_(1978)
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,742
Location
Horsens, Denmark
Tying a few bits of the last few days together, my old boss once said:

"People in NYC drive like assholes because they have to, people in LA drive like assholes because they are. ;)
 

time

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
4,932
Location
Brisbane, Oz
In the EU, they don't have the same/as stringent pollution control requirements, it's easier for them to get higher mileage vehicles ...
Sort of:

Code:
Pollutant  US    Euro
CO        2.1     1.0
NOx       0.03    0.06
NMG       0.050   0.068
HC        0.01    0.10

(Tier 2 Bin 5 vs Euro 5, US values converted to g/km)

Self evidently however, any European cars also sold in the US meet the US standards.

I happen to think that US vehicles achieve remarkable fuel efficiency given their weight and engine capacities. However, I read just today that the Toyota Prius doesn't even make the top 10 most fuel-efficient vehicles in Europe ...
 

Pradeep

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
3,845
Location
Runny glass
Certainly the Prius doesn't rate compared to some of the diesels available in Europe. That's 30% efficiency over petrol right there.

I believe for diesels the US standards are(were) in fact tougher that the Euro spec, that's why some of the Euro cars will never see the light of day in the US. Something may have changed since we are now in 2010 tho.
 

Howell

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
4,740
Location
Chattanooga, TN
Certainly the Prius doesn't rate compared to some of the diesels available in Europe. That's 30% efficiency over petrol right there.

I believe for diesels the US standards are(were) in fact tougher that the Euro spec, that's why some of the Euro cars will never see the light of day in the US. Something may have changed since we are now in 2010 tho.

Last I heard Europe had mandated "low-sulfur diesel" and the cars were designed for it. The US had not mandated it yet, but it was coming, so the European diesel cars were not sold here yet.

The could have been sold here but it was not advantageous at the time. Either they would have run poorly or they would have responded poorly internally resulting in more maintenance, I can't remember which.
 

sdbardwick

Storage is cool
Joined
Mar 12, 2004
Messages
609
Location
North San Diego County
California has required low sulfur (15ppm) diesel since June 2006; it becomes mandatory nationwide December 1, 2010. Non-highway uses are on a different schedule.
 

Tannin

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
4,448
Location
Huon Valley, Tasmania
Website
www.redhill.net.au
Well, seeing as we are already off-topic, let's go with the flow. :)

I simply do not understand the green reputation, or indeed the fundamental purpose, of the Toyota Prius. (Or any other hybrid car.) The basic idea is just daft, lunatic, loopy, ludicrous, and verging on downright evil. Why the hell would anybody want to drive a car that replaces medium-bad carbon fuel (LPG, petrol, diesel) with very, very bad carbon fuel? (The electricity that comes out of your domestic outlet, which varies from place to place, but is generally speaking made by burning black coal (a very bad fuel), burning brown coal (the absolute worst fuel there is), nuclear energy (horribly expensive and of deeply questionable wisdom long-term), or gas (no better than burning the diesel/LPG/petrol in the car in the first place, and in fact quite a bit worse by the time you factor in the poor efficiency of ;ong-distance electrical transmission).

Short answer: if you want to help the environment and you need to drive, don't drive a Prius, or any car like it. Drive whichever orthodox internal combustion vehicle has the lowest fuel consumption. Pay some attention also to the manufacturing process - some manufacturers try harder than others.
 

Pradeep

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
3,845
Location
Runny glass
Well, seeing as we are already off-topic, let's go with the flow. :)

I simply do not understand the green reputation, or indeed the fundamental purpose, of the Toyota Prius. (Or any other hybrid car.) The basic idea is just daft, lunatic, loopy, ludicrous, and verging on downright evil. Why the hell would anybody want to drive a car that replaces medium-bad carbon fuel (LPG, petrol, diesel) with very, very bad carbon fuel? (The electricity that comes out of your domestic outlet, which varies from place to place, but is generally speaking made by burning black coal (a very bad fuel), burning brown coal (the absolute worst fuel there is), nuclear energy (horribly expensive and of deeply questionable wisdom long-term), or gas (no better than burning the diesel/LPG/petrol in the car in the first place, and in fact quite a bit worse by the time you factor in the poor efficiency of ;ong-distance electrical transmission).

Short answer: if you want to help the environment and you need to drive, don't drive a Prius, or any car like it. Drive whichever orthodox internal combustion vehicle has the lowest fuel consumption. Pay some attention also to the manufacturing process - some manufacturers try harder than others.

Depends on the location Tony. Back when I was in Tassie all the power is from hydro (yeah terrible destruction of ecosystems when the reservoirs fill up but the damage is done I guess).

Here in the US my juice is from nuclear, though I believe half of US supply is via coal. An interesting option here is to pay an extra amount per monthly electric bill to buy your "power" from wind generation. If I had the funds I could say I was on the wind grid (obviously from a principle perspective).
 

Handruin

Administrator
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
13,931
Location
USA
Well, seeing as we are already off-topic, let's go with the flow. :)

I simply do not understand the green reputation, or indeed the fundamental purpose, of the Toyota Prius. (Or any other hybrid car.) The basic idea is just daft, lunatic, loopy, ludicrous, and verging on downright evil. Why the hell would anybody want to drive a car that replaces medium-bad carbon fuel (LPG, petrol, diesel) with very, very bad carbon fuel? (The electricity that comes out of your domestic outlet, which varies from place to place, but is generally speaking made by burning black coal (a very bad fuel), burning brown coal (the absolute worst fuel there is), nuclear energy (horribly expensive and of deeply questionable wisdom long-term), or gas (no better than burning the diesel/LPG/petrol in the car in the first place, and in fact quite a bit worse by the time you factor in the poor efficiency of ;ong-distance electrical transmission).

Short answer: if you want to help the environment and you need to drive, don't drive a Prius, or any car like it. Drive whichever orthodox internal combustion vehicle has the lowest fuel consumption. Pay some attention also to the manufacturing process - some manufacturers try harder than others.


Maybe I missed something, but the Prius (any other hybrid) would be the example car you recommend...it would be the orthodox internal combustion vehicle with (one of) the lowest petrol fuel consumption. As far as you or I are concerned, the electric motor inside is a black box to us. The electric assist is internal and not requiring you to plug it into the grid. I realize that the cost of adding batteries has to be figured into the equation because they are dirty in their own right. How much so I don't know when compared to burning more fuel.
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,742
Location
Horsens, Denmark
Tannin, I'll need to agree with Handruin here. The Prius isn't a plug-in hybrid. It does get all it's energy from gasoline. Besides, all my power comes from a natural gas power plant, with carbon sequestration put into the production of cement.
 

timwhit

Hairy Aussie
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
5,278
Location
Chicago, IL
I really don't understand the aversion to nuclear power. This was just discussed yesterday on Slashdot. The majority of the comments there say it much better than I can, but the gist of it is that with spent fuel reprocessing and fast breeder reactors the waste problem is small. The only viable alternative for generating large amounts of reliable energy is coal fired plants, which release far more radioactive material into the atmosphere every year than has ever been released by nuclear plants.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
I simply do not understand the green reputation, or indeed the fundamental purpose, of the Toyota Prius. (Or any other hybrid car.) The basic idea is just daft, lunatic, loopy, ludicrous, and verging on downright evil. Why the hell would anybody want to drive a car that replaces medium-bad carbon fuel (LPG, petrol, diesel) with very, very bad carbon fuel? (The electricity that comes out of your domestic outlet, which varies from place to place, but is generally speaking made by burning black coal (a very bad fuel), burning brown coal (the absolute worst fuel there is), nuclear energy (horribly expensive and of deeply questionable wisdom long-term), or gas (no better than burning the diesel/LPG/petrol in the car in the first place, and in fact quite a bit worse by the time you factor in the poor efficiency of ;ong-distance electrical transmission).

Short answer: if you want to help the environment and you need to drive, don't drive a Prius, or any car like it. Drive whichever orthodox internal combustion vehicle has the lowest fuel consumption. Pay some attention also to the manufacturing process - some manufacturers try harder than others.
First off, Doug is right about the Prius. The electric motor and battery are just a black box designed to increase mpg by recapturing some kinetic energy when the car is stopped. Second, I agree that hybrids aren't really a great idea. They give slightly better fuel economy in exchange for greatly increased complexity. Third, yes, a pure electric recharged via the grid is really the way to go. As for why, you might start by reading through this. Basically, it's a list of commonly held misconceptions about electric cars, and why most of them are wrong.

Anyway, the primary reason electric cars are better in terms of environment is that they are capable of using fossil fuels more efficiently than internal combustion engines ( and this is going on the operative assumption that 100% of electricity is generated via fossil fuels which we all know not to be the case ). A modern power plant can convert about 60% of the energy in whatever fuel it uses into electricity. There are losses of course after that. Only about 95% of the power generated ultimately makes it to the end user. The other 5% represents losses in the grid. Recharging a car battery is perhaps 80% efficient once you count charging inefficiencies and converting mains power to something the battery can use ( although newer batteries and chargers might be pushing 90% ). Out of what's stored in the battery, perhaps 90% ultimately gets put down as power to the pavement ( the other 10% is lost in the electrical motor/controller ). Multiply those out and you have 0.6*0.95*0.8*0.9 = 41% of the energy in ( coal, natural gas, whatever ) ends up powering the wheels. Now if we do that by burning the fuel in an internal combustion engine, we'll be lucky to manage 15% with a conventional petrol engine, perhaps 30% with a diesel.

The advantages don't end there. You can of course power an electric car with any source of electricity, including renewables such as wind or solar. And the biggest advantage in my opinion is pollution, or rather lack of it. What emissions are made can be much more throughly dealt with at the power station than in a car's exhaust system. Also, the power plant can be located remotely from populated areas. Cars using internal combustion engines spew their exhaust in or around population centers, which is really the last place you want it. Frankly, all the other arguments made thus far are moot in face of this last one. All it takes is one whiff of the air during rush hour in a big city, and you know internal combustion engines in cars burning fossil fuels are an awful idea. Always were, always will be. They never should have been made or used in the numbers they were. Even if it came down to no suitable batteries being available for electric cars, they could have been powered from the grid via roadways (much like slot cars ) 50 years ago. Or better yet, just use electric trains to replace long distance ( and some local ) car travel. That technology was available over a century ago. But if you must drive for any reason, it's far better for all concerned if you drive an electric.

Ironically, one of the car companies in China of all places ( I forgot the name ) is betting heavily on electric cars pretty much taking over in the next decade. IMO it couldn't happen soon enough. The sooner electrics are readily available to the general public, the sooner large cities can pass strict emissions laws more or less banning anything with an internal combustion engine.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
Silly Californians approved a state bond for funding high-speed rail from SFC to LA, which will do minor improvement to traffic problems/travel...all for a nice jump in sales tax 1/2%, and then the silly people of Los Angeles approved a 1/4% increase in sales tax for 20yrs, to provide funds to improve transportation system (the cities will *try* to get matching Fed $$$ too!).
Everything I've read on the subject tells me CA desperately needs both the HSR and much more public transit. It isn't to improve traffic. Rather, it's to keep everything from grinding to a halt ten or twenty years from now. I forgot by what percentage CA is expected to grow in that time frame, but it's pretty substantial, at least something like 25%. Now without some sort of public transit and HSR, visualize 25% more cars on already crowded roads ( and no room to build new ones, not that doing so ever helps with traffic anyway ). Bottom line is without some alternate means of getting around, the state will be in perpetual gridlock. The situation ironically is one all to familiar to us NYers. We've long past the point years ago where we could build more roads. Without continued investments in transit, the NY metro area would have ground to a halt decades ago. That's the real purpose of mass transit. There's still heavy traffic here, but it's manageable for those who have to drive. If every person on the subway drove ( or even walked or biked ) to work, it would take 5 hours to do anything. CA is approaching that point if nothing is done. Also, HSR replaces some percentage of domestic air flights. In some cases it eliminates flights between the city pairs it serves. Given the ever increasing security delays on planes these days, the public would flock to HSR if it were going to the same cities. I think once HSR is up and running in CA it'll be the start of a nationwide network.

We now have a sales tax rate of 9.75%.
Don't feel bad. Ours is at 8.875% and probably going up. Besides that, the state is talking about withholding tax refunds for 6 months or more because they're "short". CA has the same issues NYS does. For years the politicians were far too generous buying votes by handing out all sorts of entitlements. We could do it when the economy was good, but even then it meant high tax rates. Now we're facing bankruptcy unless we reign in these entitlements, starting with Medicaid ( which is now close to half the NYS budget ).
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
In your example, I'd argue that JTR did not do the right thing. You know he's a smart guy with his head on straight. If anything I'd rather see him reproduce and have children with his knowledge and values than many of the planet that decides to reproduce.
I appreciate the sentiment, and agree that I'd rather see people like those here reproduce, as it might improve the human race instead of heading the other way as we seem to be doing. That being said, for me personally the point is moot regardless of whether I desire children or not. Point of fact I don't, but even if I did, I just couldn't afford them. Even back when I was able to work full-time, it would have taken my pay and then some just to make it on my own, never mind kids. I suppose I could have gone the route like many others who had kids, namely just have them and apply for welfare. But that's 100% wrong in my book. So the end result of this system is those who have a conscience and responsibility end up not reproducing, while those who don't do.

My parents were able to do it because housing costs were much lower as a percentage of salaries. Even for them it wasn't easy. I don't see how anyone, barring maybe investment bankers or doctors or lawyers, can afford to raise a family these days in most cities.

Oh, and technically, my mom owns the house and pays the real estate taxes, not me. I suppose it could be argued she's paying for the public education me and my siblings received. Except by now that debt is long payed. By yes, if I end up with the house, I'll be paying $4K a year and really only benefitting from garbage collection. It would likely be cheaper to just hire a private carting service for monthly or bimonthly pickups. It's not like we generate much garbage. Much of our "garbage" is junk mail we don't even want.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,297
Location
I am omnipresent
The only viable alternative for generating large amounts of reliable energy is coal fired plants, which release far more radioactive material into the atmosphere every year than has ever been released by nuclear plants.

The counter argument is that the process of obtaining fissionables is so horrifically awful for the environment that it exceeds the impact of coal power. That's what the anti-nuclear people say, anyway. I have a great deal of trouble believing that, but that's what they say.

I'm very pro-nuclear power, at least until we can get a handle on cheap and reliable solar and wind energy.
 

time

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
4,932
Location
Brisbane, Oz
The only viable alternative for generating large amounts of reliable energy is coal fired plants, which release far more radioactive material into the atmosphere every year than has ever been released by nuclear plants.

CEJournal said:
Water is also far deadlier than grizzly bears properly contained in a secure zoo. You can drown in water; you can’t get near the bears.

Or you might as well say, "humans emit more radiation than nuclear plants". In either case, the effect is lost in environment background radiation, i.e. it's trivial.

The problem with nuclear power is nuclear waste (and to a lesser extent, the risks and costs require to abate them while operating such a plant). Who pays for the ongoing management for the next several hundred thousand years?

You can't even just bury it and forget about it, the shielding needs ongoing replacement until the longest-lived isotopes die down enough. It's the ultimate "eat the future" abuse.
 

Pradeep

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
3,845
Location
Runny glass
The counter argument is that the process of obtaining fissionables is so horrifically awful for the environment that it exceeds the impact of coal power. That's what the anti-nuclear people say, anyway. I have a great deal of trouble believing that, but that's what they say.

I'm very pro-nuclear power, at least until we can get a handle on cheap and reliable solar and wind energy.

They just dig uranium out of the ground. Trucks full of dirt. At least in Australia. Just like coal and iron ore.

Now I did see a show in the US where they were pumping stuff into the ground to dissolve it and then pump it out, it seemed like an incredible waste of resources until they showed you a 44 gallon drum full of yellow cake, worth about $80,000 IIRC. The high market prices make such madness economically feasible. Basically contaminating the water aquifer. Assuming that licensing can shut down these operations I don't see how obtaining it is worse than any other natural resource.
 

ddrueding

Fixture
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
19,742
Location
Horsens, Denmark
Bill Gates talking about innovation? MS has done nothing but make Windows and Office shiny for decades. I believe someone was once quoted as saying "MS is not a tech company, it's a marketing company."

So did you watch it? Did you disagree? BG hasn't been part of MS in quite a few years...
 

Tannin

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
4,448
Location
Huon Valley, Tasmania
Website
www.redhill.net.au
The electric motor and battery are just a black box designed to increase mpg by recapturing some kinetic energy when the car is stopped.

Huh? So why the hell do they call it a "hybrid"? What an extraordinarily stupid term to use - "hybrid" very clearly indicates that the car is a hybrid petrol/electric vechicle, whereas you and Doug are tellng me it is nothing of the sort - it gets 100% of its power from the petrol and simply uses a regenerative electric brake system to improve efficency. I would never have credited that!

So I unreservedly withdraw the first part of my statement.

As for the second part, I don't have time tonight to go over your figures, but I am very, very doubtful of them. You are going to manufacture, charge, and haul around a large, heavy battery made from exotic materials, and charge it using fossil fuel generated electricity delivered over a lossy transmission system, and achieve better efficiency than you get by burning the fuel directly? That's going to have to be one hell of an efficient electrical system. I don't believe it.
 

time

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
4,932
Location
Brisbane, Oz
It's a hybrid powertrain, combining an internal combustion engine and an electric motor both driving through a special type of CVT. In principle, the battery-powered electric motor is used at low speeds and the IC engine takes over at other times, although both can be combined for extra power when necessary. The IC engine also charges the battery.

The system is viable purely because of the flaws in an internal combustion engine. This way, the engine is switched off when the vehicle is stopped, crawling in traffic, or just decelerating. The electric motor is also more efficient at getting the vehicle moving. Other tricks include regenerative braking and optimizing the engine design to suit this mode of operation.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,379
Location
Flushing, New York
As for the second part, I don't have time tonight to go over your figures, but I am very, very doubtful of them. You are going to manufacture, charge, and haul around a large, heavy battery made from exotic materials, and charge it using fossil fuel generated electricity delivered over a lossy transmission system, and achieve better efficiency than you get by burning the fuel directly? That's going to have to be one hell of an efficient electrical system. I don't believe it.
To save you a bit of time, here is a link about the power grid. About halfway down the page:

Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 7.2% in 1995. In general, losses are estimated from the discrepancy between energy produced (as reported by power plants) and energy sold to end customers; the difference between what is produced and what is consumed constitute transmission and distribution losses.

My estimate of 5% losses then wasn't all that far off. Changing that to 7.2% gives a final result of 40% instead of 41%. I'm 100% sure my other figures are correct, even pessimistic. I've seen figures of >90% charging efficiency and >95% motor efficiency but I went with 80% and 90%, respectively. That 60% figure for converting chemical energy in fossil fuel to electrical energy has been the ballpark for modern power plants although many existing plants fall short of that. Link ( see page 7 ) and note that 3412.14 BTU = 1 kWh . Natural gas power plants come in at 50% to 54% but efficiency improvements of NG power plants is expected to make them more efficient than 60% within a decade. Coal plants in the US average 10410 BTU/kWh, or roughly 33% efficient BUT a lot of the less efficient ones would be phased out/upgraded by the time large numbers of electric cars appear within the next decade. Figures for state-of-the-art coal is about 7000 BTU/kWh ( 49% efficient ). You can probably approach 70% in both cases once efficient thermoelectrics are developed to recapture low-level waste heat. I'll also point out that in quite a few cases this so-called "waste heat" is actually utilized. NYC uses some of this waste heat for steam heating in Manhattan, for example.

OK, so even if we want to go with the lowest figures here, and assume 100% of power is generated at the lowest efficiency coal plant ( 33% ), we end up with a final figure of 0.33*0.928*0.8*0.9 = 22% instead of 40% ( note how this is still much better than a petrol car ). However, if we do that, then in the interests of fairness we need to account for the energy used transporting, storing, and pumping the petrol directly burned in the internal combustion engine of the auto. These are parasitic losses in much the same way electrical transmission losses are. No idea of these figures offhand but I'd say a good ballpark estimate would be one-third of the energy contained in the fuel. So now your 15% best-case efficient petrol car goes to 10%, and your 30% best-case efficient diesel drops to 20%. Both figures are less than EVs running off of the worst-case coal plant. Besides, as I said, far from 100% of grid power is generated from fossil fuels anyway. Another thing to remember is even if cars could utilize the energy in fossil fuel more efficiently than EVs using grid power, you still have the problem of emissions. EVs centralize emissions to a single, remote location where they can be more effectively controlled. Indeed, some prototype NG plants even sequester their CO2. You just can't do that burning the fuel in millions of small, often poorly tuned, internal combustion engines. I won't even get into the noise issues of ICE autos, either, other than to say that's another nail in their coffin.

And yes, hybrid is one of the most idiotic terms. Granted, it's technically correct as the powertrain is a hybrid of petrol and electric motors. However, the term has been so used/misused that the general public thinks the word hybrid always has energy-saving connectations. I've already had people ask me if LEDs could be considered hybrids because they save energy. :frusty:
 

time

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
4,932
Location
Brisbane, Oz
Nice number crunching, JTR. You've made a convincing case.

You could also look at it from the CO2 emission angle rather than raw efficiency. A typical ICE creates about 200g/km (ranging from 100 or even less for a super-efficient eco-diesel to 400 or more for a large SUV).

I've attempted to derive figures from the Prius (>3000lb car), with and without plug-in capability:

The two battery capacities are 5.2 and 1.3kWh, however Toyota allows for battery degradation and apparently maximizes service life by only allowing discharge to 50% (60% with the smaller NiMH battery). You can confirm this from the charge times, estimated at 180mins for 110V and 100mins for 220V. Assuming 80% efficiency, that's only 2.6kWh or so.

Toyota estimates a range of 13 miles (21km), so you can deduce that the Prius uses about 0.125kWh/km. In terms of CO2 emissions, coal is by far the worst source of power generation at up to 1kg/kWh. So the worst case is that a plug-in Prius contributes 125g/km, which is still far less than a comparable ICE vehicle. If a cleaner power source halves that, you're below any current vehicle, hybrid or diesel.

Ignoring the CO2 issue, coal and natural gas reserves are many, many times more plentiful than oil, so it's also a better bet from the natural resources perspective.
 

Howell

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
4,740
Location
Chattanooga, TN
Ignoring the CO2 issue, coal and natural gas reserves are many, many times more plentiful than oil, so it's also a better bet from the natural resources perspective.

Additionally, there are the companies out there burning chip wood and other manufacturing scrap occasionally backfeeding into the grid.

Also, its probably already been meantioned but the ability to upgrade efficiency, either power generation or environmental protection, is far easier at a single power generation plant than at the equivalent number of moving targets.
 

fb

Storage is cool
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
728
Location
Östersund, Sweden
Ignoring the CO2 issue, coal and natural gas reserves are many, many times more plentiful than oil, so it's also a better bet from the natural resources perspective.
...and it's possible to complement natural gas with biogas to get a reduction of the CO2 emissions...
 
Top