Desktop pc freezes when using either Win XP or Win 7 OSs

[apairofpcs]

We've been waiting for your results.

Exactly how many case fans do you have running off that motherboard connector? Are they big or small, slow or fast?

Also, you promised: "I'm waiting for my first freeze, after disabling the 2 WD drives in my case. I will take no other action before this!" :nono:

Cleaning your PC 2 years ago doesn't sound like it's related to the problem that started 3 months ago. And in any case, I doubt that the <40C temperature difference would crack anything except maybe thin wine glasses.

The warning messages you saw in the past may have been low-speed alerts triggered by your changing of the fan speeds. Or it could simply be buggy Asus software thinking it's talking to a different type of PWM controller etc etc etc.

I like your attitude.

On the fans....
Each fan is plugged into it's it's own socket on the MB.
A Cooler Master exhaust fan at the back of the case, looks like 4" diameter.
The same as above at the bottom of the case.
Unknown size/RPM (hidden from view) intake fan in the front, nicely cooling the two XP drives.
The fan in the Corsair power supply. No idea on size. Intake from the back vent and exhaust out the bottom vent.
Judging by the dynamic RPM movement in CMOS setup, where I disabled the fan RPM control, about 1,200 RPM for the back and bottom fans.

What do you have in mind with all my data?

I believe there must have been a freeze for me to disconnect the drives. If not, one hundred lashes as punishment for the blatant lie! Remember that the seed to deal with the XP drives was planted in my head a long time ago by JTR1962, and again by one of you posters.

Thank you for the vote of confidence regarding my dastardly deed with the compressed air.

Are you alluding to the fact that nothing can be determined for sure by by recent actions, with your use of etc., etc., etc?

Any thoughts on the lack of freezes for 13 hours after disconnecting/reconnecting the 2 drives, disabling the TV tuner card....AND CLEANING THE DATA AND POWER CABLES AND DRIVE CONTACTS?

The show must go on.

 

[apairofpcs]

Try flashing the BIOS. Even if it is up to date, a refresh might solve your problem.

I was considering this, too. It is NOT up to date. But modern day thinking seems to be NOT flashing the BIOS, unless you are having a serious problem that all other measures have not solved. Note that when I get a freeze, everything stops working, although still energized. But if I get a freeze while I am flashing the BIOS, I may have no pc at all. They cannot be interrupted, from what I've read. In my particular case, it's just too risky a move.

 

[apairofpcs]

In post#79 at 12:01PM today, time stated the following, "We've been waiting for your results. :smile: "

So where is the "we" to whom he has alluded? Haven't I reported some good news where some of you would have a reason to comment? Somebody, besides time and Bozo must have an opinion about the steps I took early this morning, which were firsts for me and seem to have stopped the freezes? Mind you, I'm not making any promises to any of you or myself that my problem is solved. But the fact that I haven't had a freeze since 3AM today, is meaningful.

 

[BingBangBop]

What is there to say? You're pulling off HW and seeing if it eliminates the freezing. If it does, then it does and no comment is necessary. If it doesn't then it doesn't and also, no comment is necessary. Good luck.

 

[apairofpcs]

Can anybody give me feedback on the risks of flashing the BIOS with the latest version, suggested by Bozo? Does anybody feel that the BIOS was corrupted and may have caused the freezes, or that it became corrupted as a result of the few times all settings were lost after I used the case's reset button to restart?

 

[apairofpcs]

What is there to say? You're pulling off HW and seeing if it eliminates the freezing. If it does, then it does and no comment is necessary. If it doesn't then it doesn't and also, no comment is necessary. Good luck.

Not exactly. I pulled off hardware for a short time and put it back again. My pc is running as it has, for close to 3 years. In this case, if my steps truly stopped the freezes, then a lot has to be said because I have been advised to replace the MB, the PSU, the RAM, the video card, the CPU and possibly the hard drive.....but I didn't.

If the freezes haven't stopped, I will pursue the other suggested diagnostic tests and report my results. Since my profession was not pcs, I have never heard of any of these diagnostic tests. I am happy that they were suggested to me.

For now, I'm going to lay low and see what happens. I'll write back in a few days. Thank you all for your expertise.

 

[ddrueding]

Intermittent problems, be they in cars or computers, are a royal pain in the butt. Particularly with older equipment or an environment where you don't have known good spares of everything to swap and test. Even if you did, intermittent means you never know whether it is solved or not (you can never truly prove something doesn't exist).

In the business of computers, this means that it is better to save the billable hours up front and start replacing stuff. Because this is what the pros do, taking the other path (trying to troubleshoot old kit) is much more hit-and-miss. Around here are threads of jtr replacing the capacitors on an ancient motherboard, and BBB putting loads of time into machines that I would have scrapped ages ago.

Best of luck. If the freezes have indeed stopped, you've done something right.

 

[apairofpcs]

Intermittent problems, be they in cars or computers, are a royal pain in the butt. Particularly with older equipment or an environment where you don't have known good spares of everything to swap and test. Even if you did, intermittent means you never know whether it is solved or not (you can never truly prove something doesn't exist).

In the business of computers, this means that it is better to save the billable hours up front and start replacing stuff. Because this is what the pros do, taking the other path (trying to troubleshoot old kit) is much more hit-and-miss. Around here are threads of jtr replacing the capacitors on an ancient motherboard, and BBB putting loads of time into machines that I would have scrapped ages ago.

Best of luck. If the freezes have indeed stopped, you've done something right.

I agree with your explanations. This is a hobby for me and not a profession, so troubleshooting is no problem for me on any level. Thank you for your good wishes, and the same goes for your good wishes, BingBangBop.

 

[BingBangBop]

The risk of a bios upgrade is the likelihood of it freezing in the middle. A partially uploaded BIOS is a MB that won't ever boot again unless you have a MB with a dual BIOS (so you can switch to the emergency BIOS) or a socketted BIOS that you can replace by buying another from the manufacturer.

You don't have a corrupted BIOS for it wouldn't boot at all. The benefit of replacing it is that an upgraded BIOS may be more stable or has otherwise corrected an issue you are having.

 

[apairofpcs]

The risk of a bios upgrade is the likelihood of it freezing in the middle. A partially uploaded BIOS is a MB that won't ever boot again, unless you have a MB with a dual BIOS (so you can switch to the emergency BIOS) or a socketed BIOS that you can replace by buying another from the manufacturer.

Thank you. I would have to wear a diaper, if I started a flash BIOS upgrade with my system's present level of instability. NO FLASH BIOS FOR ME!

 

[time]

On the fans....
What do you have in mind with all my data?

Just checking that you didn't have 3 high-powered fans plugged into a single motherboard fan connector. If your result means anything, it's that either your motherboard or PSU is flaky.

The fan in the Corsair power supply. No idea on size. Intake from the back vent and exhaust out the bottom vent.

Wrong way around - power supplies are supposed to vent out the back. Check that the PSU fan is actually expelling air. It's important.

Are you alluding to the fact that nothing can be determined for sure by by recent actions, with your use of etc., etc., etc?

No, just that I don't have much confidence in Asus software and there could be many reasons why it may not be functioning correctly. Of course, it may just mean your motherboard is faulty.

Any thoughts on the lack of freezes for 13 hours after disconnecting/reconnecting the 2 drives, disabling the TV tuner card....AND CLEANING THE DATA AND POWER CABLES AND DRIVE CONTACTS?

If they've been connected for 2 years, why would they need cleaning? If you're worried about the physical connections, the SMART data in each drive should reveal it. There are a variety of utilities that will read that for you, I currently like HDDScan.

Can anybody give me feedback on the risks of flashing the BIOS with the latest version, suggested by Bozo? Does anybody feel that the BIOS was corrupted and may have caused the freezes, or that it became corrupted as a result of the few times all settings were lost after I used the case's reset button to restart?

Your motherboard has a feature Asus calls 'CrashFree', which means that even if your BIOS gets hosed, there is a low-level auto-loader that can still recover the BIOS from a flash drive. It's worth a shot if you bought the motherboard soon after it came out, when the BIOS was probably still immature. Your PC crashing won't corrupt the BIOS, it's stored in (Erasable) Read Only Memory.

What are you changing in your BIOS settings anyway? Have you considered CougTek's advice of downclocking your RAM? When are you going to run MemTest (it needs to run for some hours, eg. overnight).

Just a note on etiquette: don't 'shout' at people, realize that they have many other more important things to do, and that they may also be in completely different timezones. Just because no-one feels they have anything to add to the thread doesn't mean there aren't several people reading each of your posts. In short, be patient - you are the one who elected to travel the long road to solving this issue.

 

[jtr1962]

Around here are threads of jtr replacing the capacitors on an ancient motherboard, and BBB putting loads of time into machines that I would have scrapped ages ago.

While we're on that subject, I only spent the amount of time I did because I was reasonably sure the caps were the problem. If the problem could have had many potential causes, I highly doubt I would have bothered. BTW, about 2 months ago I replaced the remainder of the caps when the proper-sized ones arrived. The system had been starting to get unstable again, doubtless on account of the 6 remaining old caps. In any case, I simply wanted to postpone upgrading until I could do it on my schedule, much as apairofpcs is trying to do now. That time might be coming fairly soon even though my system remains quite stable.

 

[jtr1962]

I second time's recommendation to run Memtest. I ran it for a few days after I replaced the caps in my motherboard just to make sure everything was OK. Bad RAM could most definitely be causing these random freezes.

 

[apairofpcs]

Just checking that you didn't have 3 high-powered fans plugged into a single motherboard fan connector. If your result means anything, it's that either your motherboard or PSU is flaky.



Wrong way around - power supplies are supposed to vent out the back. Check that the PSU fan is actually expelling air. It's important.


No, just that I don't have much confidence in Asus software, and there could be many reasons why it may not be functioning correctly. Of course, it may just mean your motherboard is faulty.



If they've been connected for 2 years, why would they need cleaning? If you're worried about the physical connections, the SMART data in each drive should reveal it. There are a variety of utilities that will read that for you, I currently like HDDScan.



Your motherboard has a feature Asus calls 'CrashFree', which means that even if your BIOS gets hosed, there is a low-level auto-loader that can still recover the BIOS from a flash drive. It's worth a shot if you bought the motherboard soon after it came out, when the BIOS was probably still immature. Your PC crashing won't corrupt the BIOS, it's stored in (Erasable) Read Only Memory.

What are you changing in your BIOS settings anyway? Have you considered CougTek's advice of downclocking your RAM? When are you going to run MemTest (it needs to run for some hours, eg. overnight).

Just a note on etiquette: don't 'shout' at people, realize that they have many other more important things to do, and that they may also be in completely different timezones. Just because no-one feels they have anything to add to the thread doesn't mean there aren't several people reading each of your posts. In short, be patient - you are the one who elected to travel the long road to solving this issue.

I've been free of freezes for 29 hours. My mind is neither on a bad MB or a bad PSU. This has been the longest stretch of stability in 2 months.

I gave you wrong info on the PSU fan. The air intake is at the bottom of the case near the back and the air exhaust is at the back of the case near the bottom. All is well in the cooling aspect of the PSU.

I have had nothing but trouble dealing with ASUS software. I won't toy with any of it again.

I have swapped the positions of the 2 XP drives many times, in my efforts to diagnose other non-intermittent problems and to have the F8 initiated Boot Selection Page show the order of drives I want to expedite the use of the primary XP drive, the secondary XP drive and the Win 7 drive. Also, it matters which SATA data cable is used in a particular drive, to keep them in the order I prefer. Before the freezes, I had the following boot sequence for my drives.....primary XP, secondary XP and Win 7. I would use each drive every day, to keep my AV definitions and Windows Updates current. So, my SATA cables and power cables have been manipulated several times since all 3 drives have shared the case. As for housekeeping, I am a big believer in the use of 91% isopropyl alcohol with a Q-tip, for cleaning electrical contact surfaces. In the case of the SATA and power cables, I just used the brush due to the narrow opening. But the drive socket's contacts are exposed and I used a Q-tip.

As I have done with all software recommendations of the posters here, I just downloaded your HDDScan program. I just remembered that the current Samsung drive with Win 7 on it, replaced a similar drive that I found to be full of errors using Samsung's Estools hard drive diagnostic tool. It took a long time to run, and it eventually got me the drive I am using now as a factory new warranty replacement. They made a mistake on their website regarding the warranty period of the previous drive, so to save face and keep me buying their drives they sent me the replacement. I will never buy another Samsung drive anyway, because they are the noisiest ones I have owned.

I am familiar with the SMART program used to check hard drive integrity. It was the reason I just had my laptop's drive replaced under warranty.

I will look at the ASUS MB's documentation, to see if I have the "CrashFree" BIOS feature.

I've made minor non-intrusive changes in the CMOS settings, such as disable NumLock, enable Fast boot, have my 2 PS2 and 6 USB ports enabled even when devices are not using attached, disable the floppy drive since I don't have one, arrange the boot sequence of devices as I wish, enable Plug and Play and the detection of Legacy devices.....and a few more I don't remember. Nothing to lead to my freezes, since the customized settings have not changed since well before the freezes. I won't touch any of the CPU adjustment entries. Loading factory default settings is a good start when I see a problem. Isn't this the way most people deal with CMOS settings when they are unfamiliar with them? I am afraid of the word "overclocking" and "downclocking." The freezing incident is my longest lasting most intermittent one since I bought my first pc in 1992. I will run memtest in a few days, if I don't get any more freezes. But if they return, then I will have to continue my troubleshooting regimen.

To my pleasure, you and I have already discussed the "etiquette" matter in a private message. As a result, I will improve my decorum around these here parts!

 

[apairofpcs]

While we're on that subject, I only spent the amount of time I did because I was reasonably sure the caps were the problem. If the problem could have had many potential causes, I highly doubt I would have bothered. BTW, about 2 months ago I replaced the remainder of the caps when the proper-sized ones arrived. The system had been starting to get unstable again, doubtless on account of the 6 remaining old caps. In any case, I simply wanted to postpone upgrading until I could do it on my schedule, much as apairofpcs is trying to do now. That time might be coming fairly soon even though my system remains quite stable.

Apairofpcs is always envious of those who plan on building a newer faster pc, and this includes you as well JTR. I may just catch the buzz after I see your new pc "screaming! " You are way overdue with a system upgrade, whereas I am not. Nevertheless, you are as relentless as I when it comes to the constant man vs. machine battle. We suck every drop of life out of the devices in which we invest.

 

[apairofpcs]

I second time's recommendation to run Memtest. I ran it for a few days after I replaced the caps in my motherboard just to make sure everything was OK. Bad RAM could most definitely be causing these random freezes.

I agree with everyone who has advised me to use memtest. I will surely do so, once I see that my ministrations have stopped the freezes. A day or 2 longer will give me this answer.

When the freezes stop, I will not rest on my laurels. I have never used any diagnostic tools to test the RAM or hard drives of my Apr. 2009 pc build. Some of you have shared your choices of diagnostic tools, and I will religiously use them.

As a result of this freezing matter, I have learned many things I didn't know before. This is why membership in any forum catering to any interest, is so rewarding.

 

[time]

I've been free of freezes for 29 hours ... This has been the longest stretch of stability in 2 months.

That's great, here's hoping it continues!

All is well in the cooling aspect of the PSU.

Just checking, it can be easy to overlook.

So, my SATA cables and power cables have been manipulated several times since all 3 drives have shared the case.

I guess that information adds another possible cause to the mix.

I am familiar with the SMART program used to check hard drive integrity.

Look for attributes such as "UltraDMA CRC Errors" and check that "Device Power Cycle Count" is not unexpectedly high (just compare your 3 drives).

 

[apairofpcs]

That's great, here's hoping it continues!


Just checking, it can be easy to overlook.


I guess that information adds another possible cause to the mix.


Look for attributes such as "UltraDMA CRC Errors" and check that "Device Power Cycle Count" is not unexpectedly high (just compare your 3 drives).

So far so good, just like in the old days starting in Apr. 2009. By the way, JTR and another friend of ours, assembled my case for me. They did a masterful job.

I have a philosophy in life. Whenever something in life doesn't go well, something good always comes out of it. This freezing dilemma has done just this. Here is my story. I was about ready to start another thread reading something like this "Samsung SATA hard drive owner needs help eliminating constant drone." Like I said, both of the Samsung drives I've had, were noisy. Each of the the 2 Western Digital (WD) drives in my case is mounted in a black plastic bracket that has a 4 pin retaining system. This bracket slides into one of 6 bays on the left side of the case. Thinking that the case only came with 2 such brackets when I mounted the Samsung drive in Apr. 2011, I used the case supplied metal bracket. The drive uses 2 screws to stay attached to this bracket. The bracket slides from the back into one of the 5 bays facing the front. This is where it has been all along.

Having enough of the Samsung's constant drone, I looked at the spare parts bag from the system build and found another black plastic bracket. I removed the drive from the metal bracket and mounted it in the plastic bracket. I found conveniently located SATA and power cables, connected them to the drive and slid it into the bay 2 bays above the top WD drive. If you recall, it's former position in the case did not allow any direct air flow around it. Like the other 2 drives, it is right behind the fan at the front of the case, which exhausts air in the direction of the 3 drives. I just placed my hand on the drive after 15 minutes of running. It feels like room temperature. This has to help matters. Just to be on the safe side, I made sure not to remove either cable from either WD drive.

Last topic in this post is the SMART hard drive monitoring system. Whereas I know of this system as a result of my laptop's drive failure, would you tell me where I can find the attributes you mentioned above? I will report back the data you seek.

 

[Handruin]

Last topic in this post is the SMART hard drive monitoring system. Whereas I know of this system as a result of my laptop's drive failure, would you tell me where I can find the attributes you mentioned above? I will report back the data you seek.

Try the demo of Argus Monitor. It has Hard Drive SMART data along with some other useful monitoring tools all in one.

 

[time]

Last topic in this post is the SMART hard drive monitoring system. Whereas I know of this system as a result of my laptop's drive failure, would you tell me where I can find the attributes you mentioned above? I will report back the data you seek.

1. Extract the HDDScan-3.3 folder from the downloaded zip file. You could put it under Program Files if you want to use it on an ongoing basis.
2. Double-click on the HDDScan.exe file, or create a desktop shortcut pointing to it and launch that.
3. Use the dropdown combo box to choose which drive you want to examine.
4. Click the SMART button.
5. Look for the attributes of interest and note their Raw values (which will be in hexadecimal).

HTH.

 

[apairofpcs]

Try the demo of Argus Monitor. It has Hard Drive SMART data along with some other useful monitoring tools all in one.

Thank you. I already downloaded it. I am making a list of diagnostic tools I will be using when I am sure that the freezes have stopped. Speaking of freezes.....
I haven't had any in almost 45 hours. This is unheard of, in the last 2 months. In addition, I was curious about the Win XP drive that was the first one to have freezes, so I booted to it. I haven't had a freeze there in 5 hours. In fact, I enabled the TV tuner through Device Manager, and was watching TV. I did not enable the fan speed control feature in CMOS Setup, though.

As I see it now, looking at my last changes roughly 2 days ago,, either the fan speed control was causing the freezes or there was a poor connection between one or both of the 2 XP drives and their SATA data cable and power cable. In a day or so, I will be using all the suggested diagnostic programs, to establish the condition of my hardware. Obviously, I will report my findings here.

 

[apairofpcs]

1. Extract the HDDScan-3.3 folder from the downloaded zip file. You could put it under Program Files if you want to use it on an ongoing basis.
2. Double-click on the HDDScan.exe file, or create a desktop shortcut pointing to it and launch that.
3. Use the dropdown combo box to choose which drive you want to examine.
4. Click the SMART button.
5. Look for the attributes of interest, and note their Raw values (which will be in hexadecimal).

HTH.

Thank you for the detailed elaboration. Seems simple enough! I will attend to this, when I start using the other suggested diagnostic tools. Right now, I am gloating over the lack of freezes from both the XP and Win 7 drives. I'll remain skeptical, until a day or so goes by and I still don't get a freeze.

 

[apairofpcs]

This will be the last post regarding my freezes. I have not had any in either Win XP or Win 7, since Wed. Mar. 7 at 3AM. I've been booting to each OS at will, with the TV tuner card remaining enabled in XP, where the software is installed, and disabled in Win 7 where it is not installed. The CMOS setting for fan speed control is still disabled.

I promised some of you to download, install and run some of your recommended diagnostic tests. I will do this to assess the general condition of my pc's core components, even though the problem that lead me to this forum is solved. I could use the experience for future incidents.