Did You Know You Are Rich? About Taxes & Tax Reduction

Clocker

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Here's some interesting information on taxes I read in an InvestorInsight newsletter.

  • The top 50% of taxpayers paid 96% of all income taxes in the 2000 tax year (latest official data available from the IRS).
  • Another fact of life is that many lower-income Americans not only pay no income taxes, but may actually qualify for tax credits that mean they get a refund over and above their tax savings.
  • Considering that the bottom 50% paid only 4% of all income taxes, and of that group, many paid no taxes at all, it is very difficult for any tax reduction plan not to favor people who pay more taxes.

Another quote I tend to agree with:
Sorry folks, but to me it looks like those on the lower end of the income scale have already received plenty of relief. It's time to start providing a few benefits to those who are carrying the load.

And finally, did you know that you just may be one of 'The Rich' who are getting richer by the Bush tax reduction plan?
And Finally, Who Are "The Rich" Anyway?

If you make $28,000 a year, do you consider yourself rich? What if you make $55,000 a year, are you rich? Okay then, what if you make $92,000 a year, are you rich? I doubt that many in any of these income brackets consider themselves rich, especially if they have kids.

However, if you make $28,000 a year, you are in the top 50% of taxpayers; $55,000 puts you in the top 25%; and $92,000 puts you in the top 10%, the so-called "super-rich."

The liberals NEVER quote these figures either. They know that most people making $28,000-$55,000 do NOT consider themselves remotely to be rich, nor do many who make $92,000. These folks would be appalled if the liberals were to call them rich people, so they don't.

I love how these politicians talk about 'The Rich' like they are so far away from the average person in the USA. Political rhetoric at its best I guess.

C
 

Mercutio

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Ah yes, Clocker, but you also have to understand that the top 10% of US taxpayers control something like 76% of the wealth in the US. The bottom 10%, .4% of the wealth. If you consider everything in between as a "middle class", that's still only 23% of all wealth in the US for the 80% between extremes.

Now, when we're talking about tax proposals to eliminate taxes on dividends, realize that folks in that middle 80% probably don't own any stock in quantity sufficient for a dividend to provide in any meaningful economic difference. Who was it that said his dividends from shares of Microsoft would pay for a movie?

Inheritance tax? How many people have an estate valued at $1 million, again?
 

Cliptin

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However, if you make $28,000 a year, you are in the top 50% of taxpayers; $55,000 puts you in the top 25%; and $92,000 puts you in the top 10%, the so-called "super-rich."
Households with income of at least $100,000 are the fastest growing income division in the U.S. In inflation-adjusted figures, one out of eight American households found themselves in this select group last year, compared with one out of 12 in 1990—4.8 million new households have joined these ranks over the past decade. (U.S. Census Bureau)
http://www.hnw.com/newsresch/hnw_market/sizing.jsp

Mercutio said:
Inheritance tax? How many people have an estate valued at $1 million, again?

The number of millionaire households has quadrupled in the past 10 years. One in 14 households has a net worth that tops seven figures. (U.S. Census Bureau)
http://www.hnw.com/newsresch/hnw_market/sizing.jsp
 

Clocker

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Merc-

Today, I believe it is pretty easy for two people who are married and have college degrees to have a household income in excess of $92K which puts them in the top 10% of all households. I don't think I can consider myself anything but *middle class* but according to the politicians, my wife and I are rich bastards getting richer while the poor are getting poorer.

Yes, I think many people in that $92K+ household income boat can/do get significant income from dividends. I know that many people I work with are foregoing the big houses and expensive cars they might buy in order to maximize investment to either 401Ks or other types of retirement accounts. They aren’t planning on Social Securiy being there for them. Of course, types of retirement investments (i.e. Roth IRAs) are not taxed in a conventional sense or have different rules for taxation. But, the bottom line is that the common man owns much more stock now than he would have 20 years ago (this includes mutual funds). I'll have to dig up an article I read in Barrons a couple weeks ago that talked about that. It basically said that giant rich investors who just own stocks and bonds and collect their dividends for a living are not nearly as large a part of *the market* that they were in the past. This is somewhat supported by the comment in the newsletter stating:
45.8% of all tax returns claiming dividend income in 2000 came from those making $50,000 a year or less.
Now, as you alluded to, in some cases those dividends quoted above may not be all that significant for those making $50K or less. But also remember that there are a lot of people between $50-$92K (the 'poor' middle class) as well as the top 10% who are making $92K+ that do have larger amounts of stocks/bonds. And, don't forget about all those pulling $ out of their 401Ks in their retirement (who are 'poor' and on a fixed income) for a living. They are paying tax dollars on all their dividends upon withdrawn as well. With the aging demographics of the USA, I think the number of people with significant dividend income is larger than you think. I think the retired are significantly affected by this!

The goals of the tax reductions proposed are supposed to be simulative of the economy. The best way to do that and create jobs at the same time is to encourage investment. To do that, tax incentives to invest are needed. Granted, those who are making $28K or less won't be investing much at all but they can benefit from the increase via better paying jobs created by investment. During the 90's, the stock market obviously boomed, investment was up, and real wages paid to the average Joe increased dramatically. This didn't happen just because everybody just got raises in 'good times'. It was also the result of the fact that unemployment was hitting new lows (I think it was like 4-5% maybe less? - basically full employment of those employable). Many jobs were being created creating a tight job market and everybody was getting overtime checks. I saw that where I work too. The 'poor' technicians working here were living the good life on their overtime checks and socking tons 'o cash away in the 401K and other accounts or investing in real estate (again, more investment). I believe that was the result of an economy with a high level of investment/growth. You can't spur investment/growth like that with giving tax breaks to those who are hardly paying any taxes as it is.

I think *the rich* need to be re-classified to the top 1% or something like that. Or, maybe those with annual incomes of $750K or more per year (just a guess).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that *the poor* should be paying more taxes. I just don't understand how one can expect to give them an even bigger break when a good portion of that lower 10% aren't paying taxes at all. And even if you do, what good will it do for the economy in general?

I hope I didn't write too much for you to bother reading. I'd like to hear what you think. :)

C
 

Fushigi

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OK, for argument's sake we'll say that most Americans recieve dividend income. And that for the vast majority of these people the stock they own is diversified through their retirement investments [401(k), IRA, etc.]. So, the money in the retirement accounts will grow faster or not have as much taxes paid when the funds are withdrawn. This is good. 15, 30 years from now it'll be great. But, how does this benefit the economy now? Specifically, this is being pushed as benefiting a significant number of people right now but many, it would seem, will not see a benefit until they retire.

The goals of the tax reductions proposed are supposed to be simulative of the economy. The best way to do that and create jobs at the same time is to encourage investment.
Didn't the 80's basically prove that trickle-down doesn't work on a large scale?

I think *the rich* need to be re-classified to the top 1% or something like that. Or, maybe those with annual incomes of $750K or more per year (just a guess).
I definitely agree. Two mildly above-average white collar wage-earners can pretty easily approach $100K/year combined.

My opinion is that if you want to stimulate the economy, you need to put money in the hands of people who will actually spend it. And spend it on things that generate jobs in the US. That person who pays minimal taxes may not be contributing much to the federal budget, but put another $300 in his pocket and he will spend it -- not save it -- because he has too (his income doesn't provide for the luxury of saving & investing). Lots of those smaller purchases should drive up demands for goods & services which should create some jobs as companies will have sufficient profits to grow.

The key to me is that funds from any tax reduction, whoever it helps, need to be spent/invested in areas that benefit America. Nothing against goods made in foriegn lands, but buying that "Made in Mayalsia" shirt or that "Made in Mexico" Ford doesn't help our economy as much as buying domestic. Distributors & retailers make out OK but the manufacturing jobs and capital investments go beyond the border.

As long as we're talking economy, why are American & United losing bucketloads of cash while Southwest rakes it in? IMO they keep blaming labor costs while refusing to point fingers at themselves for mis-managing the companies.

- Fushigi
 

Clocker

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Good points Fushigi!

I agree the 80's are a case in point against my arguement (I was actually thinking about the 80's as I typed it but I was too young to know really WTF was going on). The ecnomy of today is much different than in the 80s (stock ownership was low then, especially but we are now more service based too) so I wonder if the comparison is really very good. I chose to look at the 90's because I was an adult at the time and (I at least had a clue as to what was going on in the world) because the economy then was not much different than it is today. I think it is better to compare the result of the 'trickle-down' economics seen during the 90's rather than the 80's but I'll leave that point up to debate.

This is good. 15, 30 years from now it'll be great. But, how does this benefit the economy now? Specifically, this is being pushed as benefiting a significant number of people right now but many, it would seem, will not see a benefit until they retire

There are a lot of people retiring every day and many of them have significant retirement accounts. Especially now with corporate downsizing and early retirements being envogue, I don't think we need to wait 15-30 years to see the effect that a dividend tax cut would have on those retiring today. I know my father and many who have retired over the past 10 years have significant retirement savings/investment. Of course, the effect will be HUGE 15-30 years from now becuase investment among common-folk is relatively high. But, by that time, the government will probably be taxing dividends again (to some extent) because they will probably be a much larger portion of household income then than they are today.

JMHO. Great stuff. :idea: !
 

Clocker

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Also-

I don't think the aging dempgraphics of the USA can be ignored. 15% of our population is between the ages of 50-65 (close to retirement or retired). Additionally, about 10% of our pupulation is between the ages of 65-80 (probably retired & hopefully living off some investment income).

These people are part of 'the poor' too because they don't have jobs & their income is fixed by SS, their pension(s), and their retirement investment income. Putting more $ in their pocket will help the economy too.

C
 

jtr1962

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I know a lot of people making $40,000 per year or more who pay nearly half in taxes. If there is to be a tax cut, it should be mainly for the $25,000 to $100,000 tax bracket. These people are not rich by any stretch of the imagination, yet they still pay up to half their income in taxes. As far as those under $25,000, one of the biggest tax cuts they could do would be to exempt the first $20,000 or so in income from Social Security tax. This is far and away the biggest hit on those low income people, especially the self-employed who pay 15.3% starting from the very first dollar they earn. Other than that, though, there's not a whole lot you can do tax-cut wise for someone making under about $20,000 annually. Even a single person would only pay about $1500 in federal taxes, and someone with children would actually come out ahead with the EIC.

A better idea is that instead of complicated EIC and deduction tables we should just exempt the first $20,000 in income from all taxes, including Social Security tax. Single people with no children in any tax bracket get a raw deal, and the opposite should be true since you're not burdening the schools with your children. Social Security should be made optional, especially for the self-employed whom the government feels should pay twice as much as everyone else to get the same benefits. Bank interest and dividends should be exempt from income tax, as they once were. There are many middle class people who have bank accounts and stock nowadays.

Of course, I still feel a sales tax is a better idea, but this was discussed already in another thread. I just hate the notion of the government knowing everybody's income. An income tax was expressly forbidden by the Constitution, and I hold that the 16th Amendment is unconstitutional as a result.
 

Fushigi

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Clocker said:
There are a lot of people retiring every day and many of them have significant retirement accounts. Especially now with corporate downsizing and early retirements being envogue, I don't think we need to wait 15-30 years to see the effect that a dividend tax cut would have on those retiring today.
Sure, but these people aren't going to be withdrawing their entire portfolio and spending it all at once. And there's only a couple of million people retiring any given year (off the wall estimate; feel free to find an actual stat). Add to that the fact that most people retire at 70% of their working income and the net spending will still go down.

Baby boomers, children of the 50s & 60s, are mostly a decade or more away from retiring. I was born in the 60s and have :( another 30 or so working years ahead of me unless I can retire early.

jtr1962 said:
I know a lot of people making $40,000 per year or more who pay nearly half in taxes. If there is to be a tax cut, it should be mainly for the $25,000 to $100,000 tax bracket. These people are not rich by any stretch of the imagination, yet they still pay up to half their income in taxes.
Nearly half? I have to assume you are counting Fed + State + Social Sec. Even so, I lose about 40ish% to all deductions, including insurance, 401(k) contribution. etc.

As far as those under $25,000, one of the biggest tax cuts they could do would be to exempt the first $20,000 or so in income from Social Security tax.
Excellent idea.

A better idea is that instead of complicated EIC and deduction tables we should just exempt the first $20,000 in income from all taxes, including Social Security tax. Single people with no children in any tax bracket get a raw deal, and the opposite should be true since you're not burdening the schools with your children.
How much Fed $ goes to education anymore? I thought the lions share of it has been moved to property taxes and other non-Fed sources. The school portion of my property taxes (I'm childless so far) is obscene.

Social Security should be made optional, especially for the self-employed whom the government feels should pay twice as much as everyone else to get the same benefits.
Self employed people do not pay twice as much as those employed by companies. The amount recieved by the SSA is just about the same for each. The difference is that, by being both employer & employee, the self-employed person is paying both the employer & employee portions of the SS tax.

The idea behind SS is that all people will have something to count on when they retire. Some source of income that'll help keep them off the streets and keep the cat food out of their diet. As such, a mandatory savings program is a good thing for society. In addition, many people, if given the option, would not save anything for retirement and count on the government or some other organization to take care of them. Having SS reduces the government's obligations and needs with regard to welfare.

The problem with SS contributions is that they don't earn a good rate of return. I don't like the idea of investing SS funds in the stock market as most companies I would trust about as far as I could throw a BMW. How to get a better rate of return & not rely on bonds or stocks I don't know.

Bank interest and dividends should be exempt from income tax, as they once were. There are many middle class people who have bank accounts and stock nowadays.
Interest is income and should be taxed accordingly. But I wouldn't be too upset if, say, the first $1000 of interest income was tax-free. That'd cover the vast majority of non-rich people. Dividends I'm a little up in the air over. If the corporation has already paid income tax on them, then they should be tax-free.

- Fushigi
 

Clocker

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Fushigi said:
Sure, but these people aren't going to be withdrawing their entire portfolio and spending it all at once. And there's only a couple of million people retiring any given year (off the wall estimate; feel free to find an actual stat). Add to that the fact that most people retire at 70% of their working income and the net spending will still go down.

Good point. But with a tax break, the net spending won't go down as much.

As far as those under $25,000, one of the biggest tax cuts they could do would be to exempt the first $20,000 or so in income from Social Security tax.

I like this idea too.

How much Fed $ goes to education anymore? I thought the lions share of it has been moved to property taxes and other non-Fed sources. The school portion of my property taxes (I'm childless so far) is obscene.
I agree. I have a separate school tax bill. I have no kids yet and I may never actually use a public school (I prefer private). I feel only those who use public schools should pay for them. That would at least give the states/counties incentive to improve their schools to attract more students(along with school-of-choice).

In addition, many people, if given the option, would not save anything for retirement and count on the government or some other organization to take care of them.

True. Make's me wish Darwin's theories applied here. I can see it happening now.... SS will be in dire straits even worse than it is now by the time I even have a chance to consider I may be able to get it. At that point, the government will have to re-evaluate who is eligible to receive it. Because I will have had enough forethought and intelligence to not really *need* SS to live, I will be denied it so that Joe-Dumbass (who decided he would rather drive a BMW all his life rather than save a little bit here and there) can have the support of SS instead of me.

Good points guys...you have made the think and understand this topic more.....

C
 

jtr1962

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Fushigi said:
Nearly half? I have to assume you are counting Fed + State + Social Sec. Even so, I lose about 40ish% to all deductions, including insurance, 401(k) contribution. etc.

Here's some numbers from one week where I worked a lot of overtime back in 1990(deductions were made each week based on an annualized basis):

Net Pay:$1076.00
FICA Tax: $82.31
Federal Income Tax: $227.58
State Income Tax:$67.24
Local income Tax:$28.88
Union dues: $2.77

Total deductions=$408.78=38% of gross income

I claimed two exemptions on my W4 so I would probably have owed some more at the end of the year if I made that amount every week. Therefore, my proper deductions would actually have been in the low 40s. The rates today are similar for someone making that amount, and a single person making close to $100,000 will pay about 50% in taxes in NYC(and about 57% if they're self-employed).

Even more disturbing with this picture is that when I first started the job at $7.00/hr($280 per week), I had about $60 in deductions, and still owed a few hundred at the end of the year. Adding in my carfare at the time($5 per day since it was a double fare zone), and my weekly deductions were $85, or 30%, of a salary that fell into the category of "working poor" even at the time. As I said earlier, there is no good reason why anyone making under $20,000 should pay any income or Social Security tax. They really can't afford it. And in cities like NY the working poor should also be entitled to free rides on public transit since even in a single fare zone the weekly carfare costs(currently $15) are rather steep to somebody making under $20,000. There is even talk of raising the fare to $2 now, and this after it was promised during the last fare increase that the fare would never go up again.

Self employed people do not pay twice as much as those employed by companies. The amount recieved by the SSA is just about the same for each. The difference is that, by being both employer & employee, the self-employed person is paying both the employer & employee portions of the SS tax.

I know that's why they pay it, but since they're already their own employer they are benefiting society by not taking a job away from somebody else, so the least the government could do is have them pay the same rate as a regular employee, or perhaps exempt them since the self-employed usually tend to be more responsible about saving money than regular employees. Of course, if they exempt the first $20,000 in either regular or self-employment income from the SS tax then this is less of an issue but as it stands it is an extremely regressive tax for those self-employed earning very little.
 

Mercutio

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So far as things go, I've been proud the couple of times I made it into the highest federal tax bracket. I'm proud to be able to do my civic duty. It's distressing when I realize how much of my income is taken away in taxes, but at the same time, I also know that as someone who is at least capable of earning at that level, I should have higher obligation than many others.
Great power (wealth) = great responsibility.

But then I look up. One of my brothers, my father, two of my uncles, and one aunt, all outearn my-best-ever year by at least a factor of three, year in and out. For various reasons, their tax bills aren't very much higher than mine was at my best. So how is it that these wealthy people have no more civic responsibility than I do?

It's a soft argument - someone is sure to pipe up that it's unfair to the wealthy that they should have to pay more that they do now, but let's be honest, here, and say that the worst thing that happens to that "ultra rich" $92,000 household that gets a 2% increase in income taxes, is that they might have to vaction in Florida instead of Cancun (spurious example. Fill in your own).
 

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Mercutio said:
So far as things go, I've been proud the couple of times I made it into the highest federal tax bracket. I'm proud to be able to do my civic duty. It's distressing when I realize how much of my income is taken away in taxes, but at the same time, I also know that as someone who is at least capable of earning at that level, I should have higher obligation than many others.
Great power (wealth) = great responsibility.

But then I look up. One of my brothers, my father, two of my uncles, and one aunt, all outearn my-best-ever year by at least a factor of three, year in and out. For various reasons, their tax bills aren't very much higher than mine was at my best. So how is it that these wealthy people have no more civic responsibility than I do?

It's a soft argument - someone is sure to pipe up that it's unfair to the wealthy that they should have to pay more that they do now, but let's be honest, here, and say that the worst thing that happens to that "ultra rich" $92,000 household that gets a 2% increase in income taxes, is that they might have to vaction in Florida instead of Cancun (spurious example. Fill in your own).
Mercutio,

I'll be more than happy to let you pay my taxes so you can feel good about doing extra civic duty. :mrgrn:

I'm all for getting rid of all the tax loopholes, but lower taxes first. 15% flat tax with no loopholes. You only pay taxes on the money when you make it and they leave you alone. But no, that's not fair because the "rich" aren't paying their fair share.

Last time I checked at the store no one was charging me for a product based on my ability to pay. They didn't ask for my 1040 from the last year and then compute (based on a progressive percentage scale) how much I should pay for the item.

A Corvette is the same price no matter how much you make. If taxes were really fair everyone would pay the same dollar amount, not this progressive percentage BS we have now. I realize that's unrealistic to say everyone should pay $5k in taxes because some people can't pay, but ultimately, that would truely be fair.

FLAT TAX!

Stereodude
 

Mercutio

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15% of $25,000 is $3750, or $310 a month. If the tax burden at that salary is reduced to only 10%, the earner gets an extra $60 a month. $60 a month at that income level might be the difference between being able to make a new car payment, or being able to afford to turn the heat up a bit. That could be a substantial change in quality of life. 15% of $100000 is $15000. You'd be hard pressed to convince me that someone with $85000 after paying federal tax will be worse off than if that person only had, say, $75000 after paying federal tax.
Average incomes being what they are ($28,000 or so, I think), there are a lot more people at or around the former situation, and fewer at that upper end.

Sorry, I think we're better off with a graduated tax.
 

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Flat taxes is a poor idea prone by people who didn't think about it long or deeply enough. The more you earn, the more you generally save. People earning around 25,000$/year spend most of their income just for living and cannot afford to save much. People earning something like 75,000$ spend more in absolute number than those earning 25,000$, but less proportionally to their salary. They can afford to save a substantial percentage of their earnings. The money they save, no matter under what form (your 401K, mutual funds, whatever) isn't re-invested into the economy, at least not for a while. This means less income for the State to re-invest and less money in the economical system at large since the part that's saved is "frozen" for a while and don't benefit the economy in the meanwhile. Therefore, with a flat taxes system, three persons earning 25,000$/year would be much more profitable to the economy than a single 75,000$ earner. It is also true in a progressive taxes system, but to a lesser level.
 

Cliptin

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Mercutio said:
So far as things go, I've been proud the couple of times I made it into the highest federal tax bracket. I'm proud to be able to do my civic duty. It's distressing when I realize how much of my income is taken away in taxes, but at the same time, I also know that as someone who is at least capable of earning at that level, I should have higher obligation than many others.

What's distressing is your prefering to give your money to the government rather than helping people you have personal contact with yourself in a manner you choose.
 

Mercutio

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I do both, actually. I don't prefer to give the government money. But I do believe that I have an obligation to pay my own way.

I give away older computer all the time. I donate my services to the united way and the American Cancer Society. I build decent new computers, sometimes at a slight loss, for folks who might otherwise not be able to afford one. This year at xmas time I gave one of my coworkers enough money that she and her kids could get away from her abusive husband for a couple of weeks.

It's possible to do both, you know.
 

jtr1962

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Too bad you don't have Bill Gates' wealth, Mercutio. You could undoubtably accomplish a great deal of good in this world. Many of those with wealth tend to spend it on stupid conspicuous or even contemptuous consumption rather than trying to do some good with it.

If I had the resources, I would personally try to eliminate our use of fossil fuels, find a cure for cancer, and ensure that every child has a decent education. However, I still don't believe in mindlessly throwing money at basket cases the way many government welfare programs tend to. The money spent, or rather wasted, putting up a drug addict in a welfare hotel for a month can pay for someone's college education, and the government may actually get a postive return on this investment due to the person's higher ability to earn, and therefore to pay taxes. The drug addict will eventually overdose, but may cause a great deal of grief to others before he/she does.
 

Mercutio

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Conspicuous consumption? I live in an apartment with 12 computers. I make enough money to buy everything that is important or interesting to me. I've never wanted for anything in my whole life (well, one thing, but I somehow doubt I'll get that again). Of *course* I consume in a contemptuous manner.

Your point about drug addicts - I don't think it's valid. The US spends the overwhelming majority of the monies in "the war on drugs" on enforcement. It's a huge sum of money, and while I agree that the money has been largely wasted, I don't think that trying to help another human being is wasted effort.
Before you complain about drug treatment, I think there are probably a good many other places in government to look for fat to trim, like military budgets (how much does a B2 bomber cost, again?)
 

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(how much does a B2 bomber cost, again?)

I understand your point, but a simple response to that would be; you can't put a price on freedom.
 

Clocker

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Here is the whole write-up if anybody wants to read it:

A Cut in the Capital Gains Tax Rate-
We Just Got One; More on Bush Tax Plan
by Gary D. Halbert
January 14, 2003

IN THIS ISSUE:

1. The Stealth Tax Cut The Media Missed.
2. "Excludable Distribution Accounts" (EDAs).
3. More Analysis Of The Bush Tax Plan.
4. Who Are "The Rich?" You Might Be Surprised!


An Overlooked Benefit In Bush's New Tax Plan

As expected, the Democrats and the media have gone ballistic over Bush's latest tax plan. By now you've heard all the sound-bites: "tax cuts for the rich," "favors the richest 1%," "shot in the foot, not the arm," "soaring deficits," etc., etc. In particular, the Democrats have the most heartburn with Bush's plan to eliminate the tax on dividends.

Yet there is one provision in the Bush tax plan that the Democrats and the media have largely missed. It's called the "Excludable Distribution Account" (EDA), and it will amount to a cut in the capital gains tax rate. Let me explain.

When Bush and his tax planners decided to go for eliminating the tax on dividends, they realized that, if successful, this could lead to a boon for companies that pay dividends, while it would be a disadvantage to the many companies who don't. Small, fast-growing companies, which make up the bulk of the economy, don't typically pay dividends; they plow after-tax profits into reinvestment to grow the business.

The Bush administration decided to level the playing field for small, growing businesses. Here's how it works. Under Bush's new plan, after companies pay their taxes, they can put what remains of their profits (retained earnings) into an EDA. If the company doesn't pay that money out in dividends, but keeps the profits for its own use, the shareholders get a tax break.

A Specific Example To Illustrate How EDAs Work

Let's say you bought ABC Corp. at $10 a share. Over the next year, ABC does well, sets up an EDA and puts the equivalent of $2 a share in it. Because ABC has done so well, the stock price has risen to $20 a share. If you decided to sell ABC at $20 a share, you would have to pay a 20% capital gains tax on the $10 gain, or $2 per share in taxes.

But under the Bush plan, you would be allowed to subtract the EDA value of $2 per share from your $10 gain for tax purposes. In other words, you would only pay taxes on $8 per share, not $10. In this example, the capital gains tax would only be $1.60 per share ($10 - $2 = $8 X .20 = $1.60). That's a 20% cut in the capital gains tax rate. If ABC had done even better, say $3 per share in profits in the EDA, that would be a 30% reduction in the tax rate.

Or, let's say you buy XYZ Corp. at $100 a share, and it puts $6.50 in an EDA in the first year. In the same year, its stock rose to $110. In this case, if you were to sell it, you would only pay taxes on a gain of $3.50 per share.

According to the Wall Street Journal's (Jan 9) analysis of EDAs, even if you don't sell your shares at the end of the year, you get to increase your cost-basis by the amount of the EDA. In the case of ABC above, your cost basis would increase from $10 to $12, and it would continue to rise in future years, assuming ABC continues to increase its EDA.

This is good news, both for companies that don't pay dividends and for investors. These companies are encouraged to make profits and retain earnings, which is good for the economy. And because they are not at a disadvantage to companies that do pay dividends, they will be attractive to more investors. Caveat: once again, we don't have many details on the EDA, so as more info becomes available, we may find it is not as significant as it seems initially.

Are The Bush Tax Cuts Fair?

After my brief analysis of the Bush tax plan in last week's Forecasts & Trends E-Letter, I received many comments from readers, both for and against the plan. I also received a few e-mails from readers who scolded me for using the administration's "average" benefit numbers. They pointed out the obvious, that such estimates could be skewed toward the richest Americans, and still show to be reasonable in the average.

You will recall that I noted last week that the White House had not revealed how the tax cut estimates were calculated, and that they were the only numbers we had to work with at the time. Now that we know more details of the plan, it is easier to see exactly how the tax cut provisions will affect "regular" families.

The bottom line is that the Bush tax plan benefits those who actually pay income taxes, and families with children at lower income levels.

The Tax Foundation, a Washington, D.C.-based non-profit group, recently prepared an analysis of how the Bush tax cuts would affect families with children at different income tax levels. The results are very revealing and can be found at the link following this article. Here are three examples.

They found that the median family with two children earning $67,000 per year would receive a tax cut of $1,133 this year, eliminating 22% of their current tax liability. A family with two children earning $40,000 per year would get the same amount and see 96% of their tax liability erased. A family with two children earning over $200,000 would see only 9% of their income tax liability erased.

One of the most interesting notes that I found in the survey said that families earning below $35,000 per year were not included in the analysis because the tax cuts enacted in 2001 had already effectively eliminated all of their income tax burden.




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More Class Welfare... I Mean Warfare

Of course, the Democrats have had a field day with Bush's tax plan because they do not concentrate on the percentage of tax relief, but rather the dollar amount. In the examples above, the family earning $40,000 and our median family earning $67,000 per year both get a total tax break of $1,133, while the family earning $200,000 receives a tax break of $3,077, or almost three times as much.

So, while the percentage relief is skewed in favor of the little guy, the total dollars still favor the upper income taxpayers.

Never mind, of course, that the family earning $200,000 - three times as much as the family earning $67,000 - will have to pay over 8 times as much in income tax than the family earning $67,000, this according to The Tax Foundation's latest analysis.

The Democrats' plan, on the other hand, puts a $300 check in the hands of everyone ($600 per couple), whether they paid taxes or not. I'm sorry, but this seems more like welfare than sound tax policy.

Of course, the Democrats believe that putting cash in the hands of families who really need it will result in consumption, since they are more likely to spend the money than save it for a rainy day or invest it. On this, I'll have to side with the Democrats. Lower-income families, especially those with a couple of school-aged children, will have plenty of places for $600 to go.

However, this same family would do better under the Bush plan even if they earn an income that would have previously exempted them from taxes. That's because they get the extra $400 per child in tax credits. Two kids equal $800 in additional tax credits, and this is better than $600.

Two-parent families with one child would not fare as well under the Bush plan as with the Democrats' plan, since they would only get one $400 child tax credit. However, the ever-growing single-parent households would fare better even with one child, since the $400 credit would be more than the Democrats' $300 check to a single taxpayer.

A Question Of Perception

Obviously, whether one supports the Bush tax plan, or not, depends upon their perception of what it does for them. However, the liberal media is pulling out all of the stops in an effort to paint the Bush tax plan as nothing more than a boost for the rich. One good example was a recent New York Times article that distorted the impact of the tax plan on a family cited as an example. As a result (and somewhat predictably), the head of the family in the NY Times article said he was "not impressed by the President's tax plan," a perception primarily based on the fact that the family had no significant stocks, so the dividend exclusion would not benefit them.

However, the Washington Times ran a subsequent editorial criticizing the Times for not informing the family that the other provisions of the Bush tax plan would have shaved 30% off of their 2003 tax bill. Well, the New York Times surely can't let a few facts get in the way of a really good quote now, can they? (You can get all of the details of the original New York Times editorial and the real effects on this family in the Washington Times in the links I've provided below.)

This is just one example of how the liberal media is seeking to force a perception upon the American people. I don't mind if people disagree with my position, as long as their disagreement is based upon facts. I am an independent and call things the way I see them, so I get e-mails from liberals about being too conservative, and sometimes even from conservatives who think I'm not nearly conservative enough.

However, it really burns me up when I see the talking heads on TV intentionally slanting the news and/or leaving out key facts and/or flat out lying in order to create a perception!

The Bottom Line On Any Tax Reduction Plan

Let's cut to the chase. Whether you are a conservative or a liberal, there are a few basic points that really aren't debatable; they're just facts.

The top 50% of taxpayers paid 96% of all income taxes in the 2000 tax year (latest official data available from the IRS).
Another fact of life is that many lower-income Americans not only pay no income taxes, but may actually qualify for tax credits that mean they get a refund over and above their tax savings.
Considering that the bottom 50% paid only 4% of all income taxes, and of that group, many paid no taxes at all, it is very difficult for any tax reduction plan not to favor people who pay more taxes.
Note that I did NOT say it is "impossible" to have a tax reduction plan that favors the lower income people. There are some liberals who believe that the top 50% should pay all income taxes, not just 96%. There are others that believe the top 40% should have to pay all the income taxes, with the bottom 60% paying nothing.

Sorry folks, but to me it looks like those on the lower end of the income scale have already received plenty of relief. It's time to start providing a few benefits to those who are carrying the load.

[And to pre-answer some of your e-mails, I know I'm just talking about income taxes and not Social Security Tax. However the Social Security Tax, as well as the entire Social Security System, is a whole different story, one that I'll be glad to tackle in a future issue of the Forecasts & Trends E-Letter.]

Two Irreconcilable Positions

In essence, it comes down to the economics of politics. The conservatives believe in providing tax breaks to those who actually pay taxes. They believe those with higher incomes will invest money from tax breaks in established business, or start new small businesses. In turn, this investment will go to purchase plants, equipment and inventory that will, in turn, create jobs and opportunities for everyone. This willingness to invest "risk capital" is the basis upon which capitalism is built, and like it or not, it is what has made this country great. Unfortunately, this process is a slow one, since it takes a while for investments to be made and work their way through the system.

The liberals, on the other hand, do not believe in this model. Instead, they believe in the Keynesian view of the government providing the necessary stimulus through spending programs. In the current case, they believe the $300 per taxpayer checks will be spent, thus increasing consumption to kick-start the economy in the short-run. This is possible, but the Bush tax rebates in 2001 ($300-$600) didn't exactly send the economy soaring.

As a general rule, you are not likely to reconcile these two polar economic opinions. You may find someone converted from one to the other on occasion, but these two theories tend to mix like oil and water. So, you're not likely to see anyone put them together and explain the US or global economy.

It All Goes Back To Politics

We must all realize that both plans were developed under the supervision of politicians, with their own respective re-election plans in mind. The Democrat plan has some legitimate provisions that would be good for the economy and small business in the short-run, but it fails in terms of true tax reform.

The Bush plan, on the other hand, has some very good provisions that would be good for business and the economy in the long-run, but is also geared toward supporting the stock market, which has now been politicized (much to my chagrin).

While I have spent a lot of time explaining my previous explanation of the Bush Tax Plan, now that we have more of the details, let me remind you that I am not at all certain that we need ANY stimulus plan for the economy to keep growing. As much as the Dems would have us believe otherwise, 3% growth in 2002 is not too shabby.

As I stated last week, if I had to pick one of the two, I'd pick the Bush plan, but by the end of the year, we may find that we needed neither, at least in terms of the economy.

I do think the elimination of the tax on dividends is a good idea and one that is long overdue. The liberals would have us believe that only the "super-rich" receive dividend income, but this is NOT true. As you can read in the link below from The Tax Foundation, 45.8% of all tax returns claiming dividend income in 2000 came from those making $50,000 a year or less. The liberals never quote this figure. Imagine that! In fairness, however, it is true that the wealthy pay a much larger percentage of total dividend taxes than those earning $50,000 or below.

And Finally, Who Are "The Rich" Anyway?

If you make $28,000 a year, do you consider yourself rich? What if you make $55,000 a year, are you rich? Okay then, what if you make $92,000 a year, are you rich? I doubt that many in any of these income brackets consider themselves rich, especially if they have kids.

However, if you make $28,000 a year, you are in the top 50% of taxpayers; $55,000 puts you in the top 25%; and $92,000 puts you in the top 10%, the so-called "super-rich."

The liberals NEVER quote these figures either. They know that most people making $28,000-$55,000 do NOT consider themselves remotely to be rich, nor do many who make $92,000. These folks would be appalled if the liberals were to call them rich people, so they don't.
 

James

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Handruin said:
I understand your point, but a simple response to that would be; you can't put a price on freedom.
Sorry, but it's exactly that sort of trite nonsensical crap that really infuriates me.

Number one - freedom from what? Are there ravening hordes just outside the US border who would invade if the US armed forces were just 1 B2 bomber smaller than it is? 2 B2s? 20 F-18s? 50,000 troops? What's the magic number? Or is this just perhaps silly?

Number two - the US would continue to remain a sovereign nation in its own right with no threat of invasion even if it had armed forces say 2x the size of Canada's or Mexico's - or smaller. So you can precisely put a dollar value on the "freedom" you mean in that context, it's several hundred times smaller than the current US military budget.

Number three - why isn't "the price of freedom" a military force 4x the current one? Because it would cripple the US economy. So really the "price of freedom" is what seems like the right amount of money to spend on the US military, bearing in mind the polls, likelihood of re-election, lobbyists, who needs a favour, etc.

There are plenty of better things to be spending money on than military - have you seen "Bowling for Columbine"?
 

Mercutio

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Bowling for Columbine didn't get wide theatrical release in the US, James.
It played in art-house cinemas in campus-towns and in major cities.

I don't even know if it will be available widely on video/DVD.

Other than that, I can only offer a "Well said".

Michael Moore deserves a hell of a lot more attention than he gets here in the US. Clocker, you might be especially interested in "Roger and Me", Moore's documentary about the impact of GM plant closings in Flint, Michigan.
 

time

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Flat Tax = Flat Earth. 8)

No offense to Doug, but I think it's an indication that the soundbite mentality is becoming all-pervasive in our society. Politicians no longer bother repudiating an argument with logic.

Clocker, if public schools adopted full user-pays principles, they would be private schools. Public education is the most important cornerstone of a stable society. It's vital that the 'peasants' are educated, whether you like it or not. :)
 

Cliptin

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time said:
Clocker, if public schools adopted full user-pays principles, they would be private schools. Public education is the most important cornerstone of a stable society. It's vital that the 'peasants' are educated, whether you like it or not. :)

Define peasants. No, seriously.
 

timwhit

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Cliptin said:
time said:
Clocker, if public schools adopted full user-pays principles, they would be private schools. Public education is the most important cornerstone of a stable society. It's vital that the 'peasants' are educated, whether you like it or not. :)

Define peasants. No, seriously.

Not to put words into Time's mouth, but in this case I would believe it to mean people that are poor and cannot afford to pay for an education.
 

Clocker

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time-

I don't think I said anything about all people having to pay for their own schools. I think public schools are great! I'm just saying that people should have the choice to send their kids to the school (public or private) that they want and not be limited to the schools in their city. That would spur competition between schools to improve the quality of education.

I also feel that, if I choose not to use the public school system, my school tax dollars (at least some of them) should be given back to me to use on the schooling of my choice. Of course, it would probably have to be a voucher or something because there would be too many low-life bums having children and keeping them at home just to collect the school tax credit while the kids rot away supposedly being 'home-schooled'. Nothing again home-schooling, I just see the potential for abuse of the system.

When I'm convinced that the quality of education at my local public schools is up to my standards, I would not hesitate to send my kids (if I had any) there.

C
 

Handruin

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James said:
Handruin said:
I understand your point, but a simple response to that would be; you can't put a price on freedom.
Sorry, but it's exactly that sort of trite nonsensical crap that really infuriates me.

Number one - freedom from what? Are there ravening hordes just outside the US border who would invade if the US armed forces were just 1 B2 bomber smaller than it is? 2 B2s? 20 F-18s? 50,000 troops? What's the magic number? Or is this just perhaps silly?


Number two - the US would continue to remain a sovereign nation in its own right with no threat of invasion even if it had armed forces say 2x the size of Canada's or Mexico's - or smaller. So you can precisely put a dollar value on the "freedom" you mean in that context, it's several hundred times smaller than the current US military budget.

Number three - why isn't "the price of freedom" a military force 4x the current one? Because it would cripple the US economy. So really the "price of freedom" is what seems like the right amount of money to spend on the US military, bearing in mind the polls, likelihood of re-election, lobbyists, who needs a favour, etc.

There are plenty of better things to be spending money on than military - have you seen "Bowling for Columbine"?

I said that as a simple response, partly in mockery. I appreciate freedom and I know it comes at a price. I won't agree that every price is the right price, but there isn't much I can do about that. Is it really trite nonsensical crap?

Also, it's not for the "ravening hordes just outside the US border", when was the last time a B2 dropped a bomb in the US for defense? (Other than practice) Since so many people dislike the US, it costs more to protect. If the price equates to a reduced economy because more money is spent at building planes, then there you have it….Do what it takes to remain free.

I don’t understand why it infuriates you.

No I haven’t seen or heard of “Bowling for Columbine”.
 

Mercutio

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Truth is, everyone DOES use the education that a public school provides, since everyone, in his or her daily life, relies on some people who were educated at a public school.

Where's Flagreen? I'm sure he'd have an interestingly-divergent viewpoint in all this.
 

Clocker

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Also, I don't believe it would break the pubic schools backs to lose some $ to a private school. It's not like there are *that* many kidsin private schools that it would put them out of business. They can always get their money back from me in a consumption tax where I at least have some level of control.

C
 

Handruin

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Clocker said:
time-

I don't think I said anything about all people having to pay for their own schools. I think public schools are great! I'm just saying that people should have the choice to send their kids to the school (public or private) that they want and not be limited to the schools in their city. That would spur competition between schools to improve the quality of education.

I also feel that, if I choose not to use the public school system, my school tax dollars (at least some of them) should be given back to me to use on the schooling of my choice. Of course, it would probably have to be a voucher or something because there would be too many low-life bums having children and keeping them at home just to collect the school tax credit while the kids rot away supposedly being 'home-schooled'. Nothing again home-schooling, I just see the potential for abuse of the system.

When I'm convinced that the quality of education at my local public schools is up to my standards, I would not hesitate to send my kids (if I had any) there.

C

I disagree that if you chose to home-school that your money should be given back. If I chose to home school, I would continue to pay the public system.

It may not seem fair to have to pay for something you don't immediately benefit from, but in the long run it is important to continue paying. I was involved with music in my school and time after time the older generation wanted to cut the spending because they didn't have kids in school. Where this may be a different case, the same value still applies that it is important to fund a public system in order to aid the future growth of a young society.

Be it that my music talent is not much of a talent, but I learned a great deal from music, and community involvement that the money spent was well worth it.
 

Clocker

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I agree public schools are important and, as I said, if I thought they were better I would be happy to use them. But, what incentive do they have to improve their service if they have a guaranteed revenue stream year after year? If you could charge the same amount for selling the same product year after year, why would you bother trying to improve it or give the customer's more for their money? You wouldn't because it would not make good business sense. If anything, you would try to cut costs and get a little fatter in your wallet.

But, if you run the risk of losing customers AND potential funding because your customers aren't happy, you might work to improve your service. In this scenario, it seems that everybody wins. Public schools work harder to earn their students and funding, people like me are happier with the public schools and use them, public schools actually earn their money from me and I don't mind paying it, and the quality of education goes up.

It seems the only 'losers' are the private schools who have to finally deal with some level of competition from the public schools. It's not rocket science, just good healthy competition.

C
 

Mercutio

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Maybe not, but in that case you'd have a de facto state endorsement of the private school, which is not a good thing.

If we allocated $x to every student from age 3 - 18, that would be a different thing, of course. But to take things to a logical conclusion, if a non-public institution took those funds, I as a tax payer would want increased control over the "private" education being offered (some hot-button examples: sex - not abstinence - education, evolution, libraries that don't ban books etc.). This in addition to the standard accrediting that an educational institution must already have.

Even more, to put C's argument in a different light: Why should I as a taxpayer have to pay for any part of "ultra rich" Clocker's kids education at the preppy private school, when the the open environment of a public school meets the educational requirements set forth by the state and may in fact offer a more enriched experience than the preppy private school.


(Long Digression to follow)
Just to put things into perspective: I spent a year at University of Illinois High School, a place with pictures of Nobel Laurates (I think we had five) hanging on the walls. It's a private school offering college-level coursework to children as young as 12 (I entered when I was 12). My parents paid a great deal of money for that year of schooling, and I had a wonderful time in a sheltered environment with, among other things, students of many different racial and cultural backgrounds, of similarly high intellectual achievement. Paradise for geeks.
When I moved to Indiana, where my father set up his firm, I entered public school again. 1600 students... and with the wide assortment of red necks, bullies, potheads, geeks, skaters, jocks, morons, preppies, goths et al that go along with it. As shockingly different an environment as I could imagine.
Here's what I learned from my time in "normal" high school: Public high school, at least big ones, are a cross-section of real life. Dealing with them there taught me much better to deal with them outside of school. That's something that no amount of time in private school would've taught me.
 

Clocker

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Mercutio said:
Even more, to put C's argument in a different light: Why should I as a taxpayer have to pay for any part of "ultra rich" Clocker's kids education

Merc-
You kind of lost me there. In this theoretical situation, how would you be paying for my kids to got to UltraRich school when I'm just getting back my tax dollars that would have otherwise been allocated to my child's education?

I don't know if the de facto state endorsement it really what it would be. I tend to think of it as an endorsement of a person's right to choose.

:mrgrn: Why do I always start these tax threads...

C
 

Clocker

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...enriched experience...

LOL. Tell that to the inner city kids who are lucky enough to be able to use 'school of choice' (I think that's what it is called) around here where they have a selection of alternate public schools that they can go tothat are in nicer areas rather than the dumps local to their homes. I bet they are glad to have a choice to go to other schools rather than have to go through metal detectors every day and get propositioned by crack dealers in the school hallway. I bet they have a different term than 'enriched experience' for that but I understand what you meant, Merc (i.e diversity etc.). I know that kind of goes off on a tanget but I think it is a good illustration of what having a choice can do for you. Some public schools just should not be in business and if they don't improve themselves, there are other schools (both public & private) there to fill the void.

C
 
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