Elections Have Consequences

sechs

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http://thinkprogress.org/2007/03/21/gore-boxer-inhofe/

FYI, Inhofe is the guy who was "outraged by outrage" over the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse incident, repeatedly has blocked adoption of the Convention on the Law of the Sea, and said that global climate change is "the second-largest hoax ever played on the American people, after the separation of church and state."
 

Stereodude

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Oh no... not someone who you don't agree with! We can't have any of them in office. Oh the humanity...
 

ddrueding

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Yay! More polarizing input! Why can't we ever start with what we agree on and go from there, instead of picking the most off-center voice we can find just to start some shit.
 

Mercutio

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There are people with whom one might disagree.
And there are people who should be hunted for their waxy Republican pelt.

I know better than to think anyone who is elected to national office in this country is anything other than a douchebag, but being a pro-torture, anti-gay, anti-environment Christian dominionist with a national profile puts Inhofe just below the threshold for anything I'd consider a part of humanity.
 

Mercutio

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Yay! More polarizing input! Why can't we ever start with what we agree on and go from there

Honestly? You're asking that?
Moderate positions by-and-large end up seeming mushy and indecisive. By appealing to the middle, you end up being truly appealing to pretty much no one. Going to one extreme or the other makes you vastly more appealing to a smaller core audience, presumably one that will be more willing to vote based on your more extreme position.

All that said, Inhofe is still a waste of an orgasm.
 

ddrueding

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Honestly? You're asking that?
Moderate positions by-and-large end up seeming mushy and indecisive. By appealing to the middle, you end up being truly appealing to pretty much no one. Going to one extreme or the other makes you vastly more appealing to a smaller core audience, presumably one that will be more willing to vote based on your more extreme position.

I understand that that is true of 90%+ of the US population (aka. morons, unwashed masses, sheep, etc.); but if one were interested in starting a conversation with intelligent people, it would make more sense to get the common ground established, so it could be used as a basis for debate. No?
 

Mercutio

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I would hazard to guess that if Stereodude and I were in the same room, the only statements you could get us to agree on would involve the wetness of water and the direction one must face to watch the sun rise.
 

CougTek

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You would waste time arguing with Stereodude if you would be in the same room than he would?

And defending the position of that Inhofe asshole is just as offensive to me as hearing someone wanting to legalize raping babies. There are no words to describe the deep hatred I feel for oxygen-wasters like him. Inhofe is a betrayor to his own specie. He is working to harm Humanity.

So global warming is an hoax, United States should invade any country with natural ressources it needs, prisoneers have no rights and should be tortured without purpose, we should all forget those environmental protection laws to make more profit since acid rain, water poisoning and all other polution-caused phenomenons are just products of our imagination. Oh and let's not forget that we should all be legally forced to believe in the christian God and oblige thirteen years-old girls to give birth when the local priest fucks them after the Sunday celebration.

You conservative imbeciles make me sick. Damn, would I enjoy grabbing one of you, without witness, and tear it into pieces with my bare hands.
 

Clocker

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Anyone other than a moderate is not based in reality, IMO. There are usually truths to both sides of most arguments and anyone unwilling to listen to and recognize them is just too closed minded. Unfortunately, because we only have two main political parties, the polarization effect is strong and we have the ultra conservatives and the ultra liberals. Both are imbeciles. Wasting time talking about them is just that, a waste of time. I don't know where the comments about being forced to believe in a God and screwing teenagers comes in but maybe that's just an illustration of that polarization effect.

Libertarianism is what I favor the most, in a moderate kind of way.
 

ddrueding

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Anyone other than a moderate is not based in reality, IMO. There are usually truths to both sides of most arguments and anyone unwilling to listen to and recognize them is just too closed minded. Unfortunately, because we only have two main political parties, the polarization effect is strong and we have the ultra conservatives and the ultra liberals. Both are imbeciles. Wasting time talking about them is just that, a waste of time.

This reminds me of some things my old couple's therapist said. Even if a couple start by nearly agreeing on a topic, they will slowly change their views in an attempt to make the average between them represent where they actually stand. Of course, since both people are doing this at the same time, the views expressed become absurd, despite the reasonable-ness of their original positions.

Libertarianism is what I favor the most, in a moderate kind of way.

Seconded ;)
 

e_dawg

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I'm not sure I understand the whole liberal vs conservative debate. Primarily, I have a problem with using a single word to describe one's political views. What does liberal mean? What does conservative mean? When it comes to fiscal and economic policies and social/welfare programs, I like a conservative approach. When it comes to personal/societal/human rights and freedoms, religion, environment, and moral/family issues, I like a more liberal and secular approach. And there are some things that I like the government to take a strong, centralized leadership approach (I guess that would be liberal)... for example, national infrastructure projects... but would then decentralize / privatize at a later time when the market has developed sufficiently to thrive on its own.

So, what does that make me? A conservative? A liberal? How does one sum up all their political views into a single word?
 

udaman

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I'm not sure I understand the whole liberal vs conservative debate. Primarily, I have a problem with using a single word to describe one's political views. What does liberal mean? What does conservative mean? When it comes to fiscal and economic policies and social/welfare programs, I like a conservative approach. When it comes to personal/societal/human rights and freedoms, religion, environment, and moral/family issues, I like a more liberal and secular approach. And there are some things that I like the government to take a strong, centralized leadership approach (I guess that would be liberal)... for example, national infrastructure projects... but would then decentralize / privatize at a later time when the market has developed sufficiently to thrive on its own.

So, what does that make me? A conservative? A liberal? How does one sum up all their political views into a single word?

Well I tend to hate to get into these 'political' idealistic (and over time, you tend to get bitter/jaded about such 'idealism', being just a pion in the grand scheme of things, unless you are a brillant scientist or world leader/influence), but while I would 'characterise' myself along the same lines as e_dawg, we I think are 'clearly' quite different---but still some how coming from a similar POV, and how it that???. For how could anyone not remember in vivid technicolor detail-burned into my memory, that skin tight [SIZE=-1]Turquoise top-that so pefectly contoured her plump, pert/shapely small breasts, and those form fitting black leather cargo pants around that tight little ass, and black stilleto heeled boots, not to mention the most amazingly 'manicured/combed stright?' non-excessively plucked narrow Korean (while I'm more partial to Cantonese hotties than the majority of uninteresting Koreans, I rarely see Korea spelled by a North American as 'Corea' like Cougteck has) eyebrows of Ms [/SIZE]Aqua[SIZE=-1] GUI (ok, my super hottie vision of beauty gained her freshman 15 in the last year or so, but she's stll pretty hot, even if not now, the "ultimate" she used to be ;) ). Inside I was drooling profusely, outside cool as ever; when I complimented her on that top, which made her smile slightly and say 'thank you'.

And yeah, speaking of 'liberal/conservative' bias, I did not see even a whimper of disgust at Cougtek's usuage of the 'liberal' 'land of the rising sun' reference. So are you 'wetbacks', crazy Canucks, americans/Eurotrashers, from the 'land of the dispicable setting sun'???



I hate to say it, but like the Pol-Sci Purdue Univ? graduate Future Shock, most Americans (N.A.) have limited knowledge of the geo-political economic infrastructures of multi-national business concerns. It's a very complex issues that politians and the average layperson try to simplify. In it's lowest, base rendering, we have the fact of the 1980's when cheap/inexpensive Japanese imported cars, made in Japan (rising sun) were partially the source of the down turn of American automanufacturing job loses. Enter drunking white trash guys (IIRC, it was in Detroit) who in venting their brain dead rage, took a baseball bat to those fucking Jap's responsible? for American jobs loss, they clubed him, he died. Only one little problem, those squinty eye-Asians, land of the 'rising sun', they all look the same to whitey racists, the young guy they clubed to death was in fact Chinese...this in the early 1980's.

Point of fact, 'liberal' California, even today (white boy, commader of campus security who forced me to allow him to take photo graphs of me after I protested, after security entrance gate to Pepperdine University gave me a temporary day parking permit aftere being told I was there to visit the law library after asking for info on where to park, who's Law Library is open longer hours on Sundays' in the summer months; I was told by racist security police A-hole that if I did not allow him to harrass me in telling me that it's a private university after assininely telling me 'haven't I talked to you before?' ...like i would ever forget this complete A-hole, that he would illegally, at least he was such a dipshit about the law that Pepperdine Univ couf have faced a lawsuit if I so desired, detain me while he phoned Malibu Sheriff's office to have me arrested for trespassing) is not so 'liberal'. Up until the 1960's, in California Asian-American citizens, born in the USA, could not marry a non-Asian. My mother and father had to go to Albequeqi, New Mexico, USA to get legally married!

Yeah, there's a whole lot of stupidd shit going on in this world. That the nature of primitive human beings who lack 'humanity' (do a search on the definition, read the definition of 'humane' and why generally, pompous humans are so lacking inthat quality of being humane), is such taht we al mostly selfish, self-centered, self-absorbed people of one level or another, living or just surviving in our own little worlds until we die.

Now put forth those ideas above, and you'll be banned in no time from a conservative hick site like Candlepowerforums, or even the B&G on SR, where Eugene in his infinite bias, keeps reporting on 15k rpm hard drives, when for the masses SSD like the preview Sandisk $350 32GB 67MB/s read/45MB/s write drive is a forerunner of the ever greater importance of the laptop market for 2010-2015 transitional period. In 2020, I'm thinking there will be few if any USA auto manufacturing plants in the USA (they will be in China or India), few people will have 'desktop' computers---something most of you here on SF should consider, just as no one uses 35mm film or plays 33.3 rpm vinyl records.
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Mercutio

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Thank you for, uh, whatever that was, uda.

1. I don't consider my viewpoint extreme. In the US, it might be, but that's only because the US doesn't have a leftist political party. The Democrats would be a right-wing party in most of Europe.

2. "Libertarian" has, in recent years, become a code-word for "I'm too embarrassed to call myself a Republican." One of the main issues for Libertarians is the elimination of various taxes. That's great, if you've already gotten to a point in your life where you need essentially zero social services, but it's irresponsible to think that everyone in our society can reach any similar level of personal independence, but that's the key fallacy that makes the philosophy attractive to a lot of former Republicans.

3. Personal freedom is something we should all hope and strive for. The problem with the Libertarian philosophy is its lack of concern for issues of social welfare and to a lesser extent, public safety.

4. Unless you're talking about the Libertarian party. In the US, the Libertarian party is the "legalize drugs and privatize highways and oh by the way there are aliens who eat brains." party.

Personally, I think the state should be doing a lot more in the name of serving the public. Consumer protection, health care, tougher environmental laws, truly equal rights under law, strict corporate regulation (particularly, I think that we need to remove the provisions of our law that give corporations the same rights as citizens in the US). These are things which I believe are morally correct; the right thing to do, and none of them would ever come to pass under a "libertarian" government.
 

ddrueding

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Merc,

It was good to read your post. Well spoken views, that are relatively centrist, that I disagree with ;)

I was a republican before they made religion, reduction of personal freedoms, and monumental corruption part of the package. If they would get rid of that crap and go back to a small govornment philosophy, I'd probably go back.

The way to have a country prosper is to have hard-working, innovative, intelligent people in it; who can increase individual productivity and therefore the standard of living. The way to have these kinds of people in a country is to reward them. Life isn't fair; by trying to make it fair, the govornment is taking from the people it should want to keep and giving to the people who it shouldn't want. I understand that this is a heartless perspective, but it's mine ;) I have changed my opinion over the years, and it is still open to persuasive arguments.
 

RWIndiana

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ddrueding, you should run for president. You are exactly what reasonable conservatives really want. Except for the non-religion part, but people might overlook that, since the government size and spending has gotten way out of control. As long as you keep those "personal freedoms," including religious freedom, in high regard, you might be the answer. :)
 

sechs

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I believe that's what we call libertarianism. You know, get the government the fuck out of the way of me making my money.

It doesn't work (at least not any better than communism ever really did) and it's certainly not in the best interests of this country. As is often the case, the real answer lies somewhere between the two extremes.

Unfortunately, because we have only two real parties, we have a tendency to swing too far to one side and then back.
 

ddrueding

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As far as "what is wrong with the country" is concerned; I believe the primary issue is that we're just too darn big, trying to represent too many people with one government. Furthermore, the rewards of screwing the country are simply too large.

If the country that I lived in only represented me and the people within a few hundred miles of me, we would be far more likely to agree on what should be. I've included a picture of what I would find acceptable.(essentially the middle third) ;)

One of my main arguments for this is that there is no way a non-Catholic/Christian could be elected president because of a bunch of people in states that I don't even want to visit. Further, there is a bunch of tax money being taken from people within my area of interest and sent to them thousands of miles away! I don't want to support them!

I am not a true libertarian, as I believe that certain functions (roads, cops, firemen, schools) should be paid for by everyone. But I don't believe they should be performed by government workers. We need to find a way to contract the work out with effective oversight; far easier on a smaller scale.
 

sechs

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There is strength in numbers, and I think that our history shows that.

The fact that European nations are trying so hard to build the EU shows that this is going to be a key going forward. And, heck, these guys don't even speak a small number of different languages.

As for loose federation... that the South lost the Civil War should tell you how well that works.
 

ddrueding

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Sechs,

I agree with all your arguments, but how do you overcome the problems I mentioned? Make everyone 'see the light' and think like you do? That seems like a lot of work.
 

paugie

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Non-American tossing his 2centavos in:

I watched the video... I think the guy was ill-mannered. I can't start to imagine what kind of thinking could have gotten him to act like that, maybe he wasn't thinking.

He's supposed to be a Christian? Well, his Christian discipler must be (should be) hanging his/her head in shame.

as the "Good Book" says...
The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

(er, is it alright to quote from the "Good Book" in the forums?)
 

sechs

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You clearly have no inkling of the causes of winning or losing the War Between the States.

Why don't you inkle us "the causes of winning or losing the War Between the States" and tell how loose federation did not figure into it?
 

sechs

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I agree with all your arguments, but how do you overcome the problems I mentioned? Make everyone 'see the light' and think like you do? That seems like a lot of work.

We do not do it because it is easy, but because it is hard.
 

ddrueding

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Why don't you inkle us "the causes of winning or losing the War Between the States" and tell how loose federation did not figure into it?

My suspicion would be that the problem was one of the north not liking the arrangement and deciding to force the issue. (stupid, IMHO, who would want the south?)
 
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