Empire in Decline

[time]

The USA is the heart of the English-speaking world, and probably the flagship of modern democracies. Countries like Australia and the UK have derived indirect benefit from the USA's very existence. But the future has looked bleak for the last decade or two.

The extent of the riots, following on from everything else, makes now a good time to raise this as a topic for discussion.

Here is an analysis/opinion piece by a senior journalist from outside of the US. I think it is worth reading, even if it confirms everything Americans already know:

The US is tearing itself apart because its political system has failed

 

[jtr1962]

Honestly, this is the start of a planet of the apes scenario. Today the cities burn. Who knows if or when we'll come out of the ashes? I would hate to be a kid in today's world. I've already told young people don't waste your time or money on school since there's no future for you. That's even more true now given how many jobs this pandemic just made disappear. The real problem is the US has failed to invest in its human capital for decades. Lots of people with no healthcare (me included). Higher education only accessible by going heavily into debt. Employers unwilling to train people. Lots of jobs with no sick time or vacation. It just goes on and on. All the benefits of greater productivity have accrued to those on top. Meanwhile life expectancy is down, and people are working longer hours, not the much shorter ones foretold by futurists when I was a kid.

If there is any one thing I can pin down for the problem, it's the widespread distrust of experts. This article sums it up nicely:

The Death Of Expertise

To reject the notion of expertise, and to replace it with a sanctimonious insistence that every person has a right to his or her own opinion, is silly.

thefederalist.com

When you have laypeople making complex policy decisions, the end results are all too predictable. Anyone with half a brain could have saw this disaster in the making. We have experts for a reason. That's why you study things for years, even decades. You can't Google the solution to every problem in 5 minutes, as much as the general public feels otherwise. Donald Trump is the ultimately non-expert acting like he's the consummate expert on everything. He recently added epidemiology and pathology to the list of things he knows more about than anyone else.

 

[Chewy509]

Excellent article.

Unfortunately even our own Australian government seems to be suffering a distrust of experts in a number of areas and policies...

 

[Chewy509]

Hope all our US members are staying safe during this time of uncertainty.

 

[Newtun]

. . .

The Death Of Expertise

To reject the notion of expertise, and to replace it with a sanctimonious insistence that every person has a right to his or her own opinion, is silly.

thefederalist.com

. . .

The Trump Regime:​

Revenge Against the Nerds

​

 

[snowhiker]

The extent of the riots, following on from everything else, makes now a good time to raise this as a topic for discussion.

I was going to start a thread last night so I'm glad you got the ball rolling.

Honestly, this is the start of a planet of the apes scenario. Today the cities burn. Who knows if or when we'll come out of the ashes?

I don't think we'll descend into chaos. Things will get back under control and normalcy will return. Will things change? Probably not.

 

[fb]

This is the perfect gift from Trump to the Chinese media.

Trump adds fuel to fire as racial tensions reach boiling point - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

 

[Chewy509]

Does anyone else get the feeling that Trump senses he may not win the next election, thus is creating as much havoc for the next person to clean up?

 

[jtr1962]

Does anyone else get the feeling that Trump senses he may not win the next election, thus is creating as much havoc for the next person to clean up?

Some of us said as much in the coronavirus thread. I see several angles to his tactics:

1) Use the protests to create disorder by infiltrating the ranks of protesters with white supremacists or even police offices. This will appeal to people's desire to get back security at any cost. Of course, Trump is positioning himself as the "law-and-order" President exactly for this reason.

2) Kill the economy further, especially in swing states, so Trump can say he wanted to keep things open but the Democrats didn't.

3) Point to the (currently rising) stock market as a sign that the economy is back on track. Of course that's not true. The only reason the markets are up is because of the feds pumping in lots of bailout money to prop up the markets.

4) Do nothing about the millions of unemployed, and block any attempts by Congress for more economic stimulus payments. Trump knows the worst effects of the pandemic on the economy won't be felt until long after election day. If the next President isn't him, a major depression which will surely take more than one term to get out of will help the GOP in 2024. Heck, for all we know he might want to run in 2024. Or perhaps Ivanka will. If he does get re-elected, I'm sure one the first things he does would be a big round of stimulus payments to keep the economy from completely tanking in his second term. Basically, he wants to ensure that if he doesn't get re-elected he'll leave a big, steaming pile of shit to his successor.

I wouldn't put it past him to use a second term to structurally change the Presidency. That would include giving the President a lot more power, and also making it a lifetime position with the successor chosen not by the people, but by the sitting President.

Trump is taking a page straight out of Senator Palpatine's playbook. If he does get re-elected, we'll likely be calling him Emperor Trump before long. And publicly criticizing anything he does will be grounds for a long prison term, maybe even an execution. Remember Hitler came to power in a strongly democratic country. It can happen again. And then we have his new "Space Force". Doubtless building a death star would be one of the first things he uses it for.

 

[time]

Very good explanation of the George Floyd autopsies:

Dr Mike Hansen is one of my favorite YouTube medicos. As a pulmonary and ICU specialist, he has provided invaluable insight into the realities of COVID-19.

 

[snowhiker]

I don't think we'll descend into chaos. Things will get back under control and normalcy will return.

Wow was I wrong. Things went FUBAR all over the place.
Thank God we have looters burning down businesses and stealing goods from Targets to honor the man who's been in jail/prison NINE separate times and high on meth at the time of his arrest/death. Cops were scum but Floyd was no angel either.

This is the perfect gift from Trump to the Chinese media.

Trump adds fuel to fire as racial tensions reach boiling point - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

Trump is damned if he doesn't do anything to stop riots and damned if he sends in Federal troops to end chaos. THE STATES need to end the violence not the Feds. This won't happen when a bunch of virtue signaling mayors and governors have told their police force to back off and stand down. DAs have been told to release those arrested and not to prosecute the criminal rioters.

More black people have been murdered in the last few weeks during the riots than those killed by cops the last two years.

Explosion of crime in major U.S. cities including NYC. But thank God the idiot mayor has 27 officers guarding the "Black Lives Matter" sign painted on the street in front of Trump Tower. /SMH

Does anyone else get the feeling that Trump senses he may not win the next election, thus is creating as much havoc for the next person to clean up?

Hillary Clinton had a 92% chance of winning the election in 2016. She lost. People are fed up with the riots and lockdowns. The polls aren't capturing this accurately.

Some of us said as much in the coronavirus thread. I see several angles to his tactics:

1) Use the protests to create disorder by infiltrating the ranks of protesters with white supremacists or even police offices. This will appeal to people's desire to get back security at any cost. Of course, Trump is positioning himself as the "law-and-order" President exactly for this reason.

2) Kill the economy further, especially in swing states, so Trump can say he wanted to keep things open but the Democrats didn't.

3) Point to the (currently rising) stock market as a sign that the economy is back on track. Of course that's not true. The only reason the markets are up is because of the feds pumping in lots of bailout money to prop up the markets.

4) Do nothing about the millions of unemployed, and block any attempts by Congress for more economic stimulus payments. Trump knows the worst effects of the pandemic on the economy won't be felt until long after election day. If the next President isn't him, a major depression which will surely take more than one term to get out of will help the GOP in 2024. Heck, for all we know he might want to run in 2024. Or perhaps Ivanka will. If he does get re-elected, I'm sure one the first things he does would be a big round of stimulus payments to keep the economy from completely tanking in his second term. Basically, he wants to ensure that if he doesn't get re-elected he'll leave a big, steaming pile of shit to his successor.

I wouldn't put it past him to use a second term to structurally change the Presidency. That would include giving the President a lot more power, and also making it a lifetime position with the successor chosen not by the people, but by the sitting President.

Trump is taking a page straight out of Senator Palpatine's playbook. If he does get re-elected, we'll likely be calling him Emperor Trump before long. And publicly criticizing anything he does will be grounds for a long prison term, maybe even an execution. Remember Hitler came to power in a strongly democratic country. It can happen again. And then we have his new "Space Force". Doubtless building a death star would be one of the first things he uses it for.

1) If Trump using the riots (for whatever reason) was an issue, why don't the local mayors, city counsels and governors (mostly dems) simply use their police forces to end the riots and arrest the criminals burning building and stealing TVs? The riots hurt Trump and his re-election because he gets blamed for them and the aftermath. WHY didn't Trump do anything they'll ask? Or it would be; HOW could Trump send in Fed troops and stop those "peaceful" protests honoring Floyd or countering BLM. I guess racism didn't exits until Trump was elected.

2) The economy was flying high before COVID-19. Unemployment AND black unemployment were the lowest in decades. Good economy equals Trump re-elected. End of story. (not saying Trump was fully responsible for good economy, BTW) --- If anything it's the dems that want to see the country burn and the economy take a dump. Bad economy and chaos equals Trump defeated.

3) Rising markets a rebound from Covid shutdowns reversing and bailout/stimulus money.

4) Ending the shutdown and getting people back to work will help the economy tremendously. Going to be a jump in manufacturing to catch up. People already talking about returning manufacturing jobs back from China. We can't keep giving out stimulus and bailouts. The debt is already too high. Now that is a, perhaps the real, problem in the coming years and decades.

If Trump loses in 2020 he won't re-run in 2024. People were saying the same things about Hillary Clinton too. She's dead as a politician and if Trump loses he'll be dead too. Plus he'll be 78 then and probably just want to retire, or he'll have dementia like Biden. If the "second Covid spike" doesn't really happen and we can open the economy back up fully the economy will be fine and we won't need another stimulus.

And finally the idea that Trump wants to leave a huge pile of shit if he doesn't get re-elected is just dumb. Regardless of what Rachel Maddow or Don Lemon say Trump doesn't hate America. If anything Trump would want to leave office on a high note to show how wonderful he is.

And regarding Trump, "structurally change the Presidency," and "making it a lifetime position with the successor chosen not by the people, but by the sitting President," is pretty much the same thing the prepper, hillbilly nutjobs were saying about Obama. It's Ridiculous and it's said about every president. Bush-41 left peacefully after losing second term. Clinton left peacefully. Bush-43 left peacefully. Obama left peacefully and Trump will leave peacefully. Anything else is conspiracy theory nonsense.

"Hitler came to power in a strongly democratic country" is true, but one of the first thing he did do was DEFUND THE POLICE. Sound familiar? But anyways we might not have much of a country left because according to Biden 150,000,000 people have died from gun violence and another 120,000,000 people have died from COVID-19 this year. LOL. The Trump/Biden debate (if the Dems will allow him to debate) is going to be really interesting.

I don't love Trump as he has lots of ego problems, is a poor communicator and surrounds himself with idiots (save the new press secretary) but I hate him a whole lot less then Biden, the BLM rioters/Marxists, liberal cancel culture and anybody who hates America because it's cool to hate America.

 

[jtr1962]

1) If Trump using the riots (for whatever reason) was an issue, why don't the local mayors, city counsels and governors (mostly dems) simply use their police forces to end the riots and arrest the criminals burning building and stealing TVs? The riots hurt Trump and his re-election because he gets blamed for them and the aftermath. WHY didn't Trump do anything they'll ask? Or it would be; HOW could Trump send in Fed troops and stop those "peaceful" protests honoring Floyd or countering BLM. I guess racism didn't exits until Trump was elected.

Because those same police forces are actively staging a work slowdown which their unions are doubtless strongly encouraging. The unions obviously don't want to have fewer members, which is exactly what would happen if police forces are cut. And in most cases, those cuts won't result in more crime if police actually do their jobs. The NYPD has about 3 times as many officers as it needs. But the union doesn't want cuts, so they figure staging slowdowns will make people think cutting the police forces are a bad idea.

As for riots, wait until Trump loses. I suspect his followers will engage in riots which will pale next to anything BLM has done.

2) The economy was flying high before COVID-19. Unemployment AND black unemployment were the lowest in decades. Good economy equals Trump re-elected. End of story. (not saying Trump was fully responsible for good economy, BTW) --- If anything it's the dems that want to see the country burn and the economy take a dump. Bad economy and chaos equals Trump defeated.

Why would they want that? A bad economy will continue well into the first term of a Biden Presidency, perhaps even the second assuming he gets re-elected (which won't happen anyway if the economy remains bad). Tanking the economy intentionally to get Trump out is a dangerous game unless you can guarantee a swift rebound in 2021. Nobody can guarantee that.

Also, the economy was never really "good" in the sense that there were lots of good jobs which created upward mobility. There was low employment, sure, but it was a McJobs economy where lots of people lived paycheck to paycheck. To be fair, this situation was brewing long before Trump took office, so I'm not blaming him 100% for it.

3) Rising markets a rebound from Covid shutdowns reversing and bailout/stimulus money.

Mostly from bailout money. I'm not seeing a whole lot of economic good news to justify the rebound. In fact, since I nearly made up my losses I'm thinking of putting everything in cash equivalents since I see a market crash when the fall wave hits as almost inevitable.

4) Ending the shutdown and getting people back to work will help the economy tremendously. Going to be a jump in manufacturing to catch up. People already talking about returning manufacturing jobs back from China. We can't keep giving out stimulus and bailouts. The debt is already too high. Now that is a, perhaps the real, problem in the coming years and decades.

But we can't safely reopen the economy until the virus is under control. That basically means widespread testing and only 1% or fewer test positive. We'll still need precautions like masks and social distancing even then. Reopening when positive tests are much higher, as much of the country did, only guarantees a rise in cases, and probably the need for more lock downs. I see way too much magical thinking with this virus. It's not disappearing if people wish it away. We have to actively take steps to get rid of it.

The answer to the debt is to selectively default on it, meaning we start first with any treasuries held by foreign nationals. In fact, in order for this country to get back on track a lot of debt needs to be wiped clean.

If Trump loses in 2020 he won't re-run in 2024. People were saying the same things about Hillary Clinton too. She's dead as a politician and if Trump loses he'll be dead too. Plus he'll be 78 then and probably just want to retire, or he'll have dementia like Biden. If the "second Covid spike" doesn't really happen and we can open the economy back up fully the economy will be fine and we won't need another stimulus.

Mathematically we can't avoid a second spike at this point. Sorry, it's a mathematical certainty at this point. The rest of the country right now is more or less where NYC was in early March where there was a tremendous amount of community spread. We locked down in mid-March, which prevented an even more horrendous death toll, but by not locking down earlier we pretty much sealed our fate for a large number of deaths, roughly 0.3% of the city's population. It's probably going to worse in most of the country on account of more preexisting conditions, plus hospitals in a lot of states which are frankly third world.

I don't love Trump as he has lots of ego problems, is a poor communicator and surrounds himself with idiots (save the new press secretary) but I hate him a whole lot less then Biden, the BLM rioters/Marxists, liberal cancel culture and anybody who hates America because it's cool to hate America.

If someone put a gun to my head to vote in 2016, I would have picked Trump because he had fewer negatives than Hillary. Also, I figured we already tried career politicians. Time to try something else. I also hoped Trump might grow into the job, which of course didn't happen. Unfortunately, I don't think anybody realized the depths of his incompetence. Up until the pandemic it might have been all fun and games. Now his dismissal of science has already cost over 140K lives, with many more to follow.

As for Biden, a vote for him is really a vote for his running mate. I'm sure most of his supporters realize this. He's obviously not my first or even second choice. I liked Yang and Buttigieg the most out of all the candidates but at this stage I'll take anybody over Trump.

 

[jtr1962]

Wow was I wrong. Things went FUBAR all over the place.
Thank God we have looters burning down businesses and stealing goods from Targets to honor the man who's been in jail/prison NINE separate times and high on meth at the time of his arrest/death. Cops were scum but Floyd was no angel either.

I wanted to address this separately. No, the riots aren't about Floyd. They never were. They're partially career criminals simply taking advantage of the situation, partly white supremacists and/or cops trying to discredit protesters, and partly just a lot of pent-up anger over what has been going wrong in this country over the last generation. I can relate to the last part. When I was young I did everything they told me to, but I soon learned the economy was gamed against people like me. It started with lower pay for the same work compared to those only ten years older. Add in housing costs which were artificially inflated by real estate speculators. Then top it off with student debt which not only was impossible to get rid of if you couldn't pay it, but which also increased by multiples as for-profit collection companies got in the game. All this, and I'm not even black. If I were, add in a long list of other roadblocks to upward mobility. So yes, some of the rioting is push back against all that. People might be thinking I tried to get ahead by legitimate means but the deck was stacked against me, so taking what I want by force suddenly seems a viable strategy. If I wasn't taking care of my mom and also afraid of catching the virus, I might well have been right out there looting stores with the rest of them, and also destroying rich people's neighborhoods. I figure it's long past time the rich had to live with some of the problems their obsession with keeping every dime they got by underpaying their workers has caused. I'm just surprised at least some cops didn't join them. The cops are just as much exploited by the wealthy as the rest of us. That's actually what it will take to change things, when the cops start telling the wealthy, sorry, we're with them. We're not protecting you or what you own any longer.

 

[fb]

5 Things To Know About The Federal Agents In Portland

The Onion brings you all of the latest news, stories, photos, videos and more from America's finest news source.

www.theonion.com

 

[sedrosken]

I didn't like Trump then, I really don't like Trump now, I just wish people would stop giving him attention as that's apparently all he seems to want. When all eyes and ears are on him he seems to be at his happiest. I won't be voting for him this November and I didn't vote for him in November 2016. I don't think the country's falling apart yet but I do think that's the image the media wants to portray as constant crisis keeps dials turned and view counts rising. I don't want to take part in any looting, frankly anything I actually want I tend to be able to get for myself. Then again I tend to keep my wants pretty realistic.

I've given up any huge ambitions I had for myself. At this point I'll be happy if I can dig myself out of this dumb student debt hole I dug myself into, which I'm making great progress on by the way, and get to a point where I can support myself on my own, which I'm getting pretty close to. I don't want to start a family, frankly the way the world's going that just seems irresponsible. Maybe I'll find someone to watch the world burn with, maybe I won't. I don't mind much either way.

 

[Newtun]

International reflections, from the German magazine Der Spiegel (the mirror):

​

(The caption translates to "the Fire Devil".)

 

[Bozo]

The elephant in the room is the fact that all this stimulus money is being borrowed. We are more than 26 Trillion dollars in debt. At the end of May, the debt was 23 Trillion.

 

[snowhiker]

Here's who owns the U.S. National Debt.

 

[fb]

-

 

[Newtun]

+

 

[jtr1962]

÷

 

[Newtun]

±

 

[Chewy509]

It's being reported here in Oz, that it's expected that a lot of US citizens will postal vote in the upcoming US elections (due to illness/covid/etc), however there has been no additional allocation of resources to the US postal service to cope with the extra load, with many fearing that their postal vote may not reach the counting/polling locations before deadline?

Any truth in this?

 

[Will Rickards]

The truth is the postal service can handle the load without any problems, they handle way more volume than voting by mail would add and volume of regular mail is actually down due to the pandemic. Their union rep said as much on one interview I watched. They are overloaded with packages currently. This is where the problem lies. And some recent changes which are piloted in certain locations, not everywhere, are causing mail delays. So yeah if you vote by mail, send it in sooner rather than later.

Now there is a separate issue with the ability of the postal worker to sign the ballots as the witness. This is kind of crazy as how can they witness anything, they just transport the mail.

And if people are really concerned about their mail-in ballots getting there in time, they can always drop it off themselves. Many municipalities have drop boxes for this very purpose.

The real issue is with the state/local resources. The fear is they are not equipped to handle the load of all the additional mail-in ballots. And some states, like mine, have dumb laws that says they can't process the mail-in ballots till election day. So the real problem is counting the ballots. And the continuing pandemic means they are ill funded from tax revenue and already spending tons of money, so they can't just throw money at the problem.

Now, has there been an effort over many years to make the us postal service crumble with the eventual goal to privatize that business? And is the latest stuff just the latest effort? That is probably true. But the truth is the postal service is profitable, though they are only intended to break even, except for a stupid law that was passed to make them prefund health costs for people not even born yet. Help is needed but it is mostly just to repeal that stupid law and maybe give them a smallish shot in the arm of cash.

The postal service is a critical public service which should be protected along with the postal workers themselves. But our legislative branch is brain dead and the election in 2020 is not going to fix that.

 

[snowhiker]

Prepare yourself. Kamala Harris says that the riots are not going to stop, ever, and to BEWARE. With a smile on her face.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1299077701916073984

It's OK though because all of the riots marches are COMPLETELY PEACEFUL.

I thought this pic was funny.

 

[jtr1962]

Well, in all fairness she also condemned the riots and looting:

Kamala Harris condemns looting, violence in wake of police shooting

U.S. presidential nominee Joe Biden's running mate Kamala Harris on Thursday denounced the looting and acts of violence that followed the police shooting of a Black man, as Republicans sought to paint the two Democrats as weak on crime.

www.reuters.com

I'm not thrilled with either Harris or Biden but it's clear at this point Trump has to go. Just his poor handling of the pandemic is reason enough but the last day of the RNC was a disgrace, using federal property for political purposes. And now you have Trump supporters in assault vehicles trying to run over protesters:

The Flag-Covered Assault Truck is 'Trump 2020' Ad — Streetsblog USA

President Trump has an indelible one for his re-election campaign: pickup trucks ramming into civil rights protesters.

usa.streetsblog.org

If these are the kind of people who support Trump, it just underscores the need to get rid of him. They're just as bad as the rioters or looters, maybe worse because they're agitating things. Maybe the protesters should start deploying IEDs at the perimeter to protect themselves.

This is another disgusting thing:

Trump Supporters Rush to Defend One of Their Own Who Killed Protesters in Kenosha

The Fox News host said Kyle Rittenhouse, who shot and killed two men during a protest in Kenosha, Wisconsin, “had to maintain order.”

theintercept.com

I don't know whether or not Kyle Rittenhouse acted in legitimate self-defense but Trump supporters defending sending an untrained 17 year old with an assault rifle into a hot zone are fucking sick. Kyle should have stayed home, not been rallied to whatever stupid cause he thought he was serving. Now if a jury doesn't see things his way his life will be ruined. I'm sure he meant well, but the proverbial road to hell is paved with good intentions.

And note, I don't support looting or wanton destruction of property, especially when it's middle class businesses. That's an entirely separate issue but there's a good amount of evidence out there that it's not just Antifa and other far left groups behind the rioting and looting:

What we know about the extremists taking part in riots across the US

Law enforcement and federal officials say outside elements from both far-right and far-left groups are helping fuel the violent and damaging confrontations that have marred protests across the country in recent days, despite President Donald Trump's focus just on Antifa and the far left.

www.cnn.com

Trump supporters have a stake in this also for obvious reasons. The worse things get the more Trump can push the law and order meme.

We're on the brink of a civil war. No idea how it's going to turn out, but I suggest anyone with any sense get 6 months or more of supplies and just hunker down until it passes. Might be a good thing if the radicals on both sides kill each other off. The country can do without them. You need stuff like this from time to time to get rid of the bad blood, to paraphrase one of my favorite quotes from The Godfather.

 

[jtr1962]

The real issue is with the state/local resources. The fear is they are not equipped to handle the load of all the additional mail-in ballots.

Here's what I don't understand. On day one of the national emergency the Post Office should have stopped delivering junk mail. Besides the obvious reduction in mail volume, paper is a vector for covid-19. This policy should remain in effect at least until the emergency is over but I would prefer a long-term strategy to get rid of junk mail. Start charging first-class rates for it. The volume will go down, but the post office will make more per piece. They'll need fewer resources to handle the volume, while perhaps getting the same revenue. That will enable them to handle any influx of mail-in ballots. Especially in this era of climate change, hard to see how you can justify expending resources to create and deliver junk mail, and then yet more resources to haul it away to landfill. Junk mail needs to go the way of the horse and buggy. Especially ridiculous are the charities which send out address labels. Nobody nowadays sends out enough mail to need hundreds of address labels. These people are still operating like it's the 1950s.

And some states, like mine, have dumb laws that says they can't process the mail-in ballots till election day. So the real problem is counting the ballots. And the continuing pandemic means they are ill funded from tax revenue and already spending tons of money, so they can't just throw money at the problem.

That's completely nuts. So they're essentially creating they're own problem with these stupid laws.

But the truth is the postal service is profitable, though they are only intended to break even, except for a stupid law that was passed to make them prefund health costs for people not even born yet. Help is needed but it is mostly just to repeal that stupid law and maybe give them a smallish shot in the arm of cash.

Yep, time for that requirement to go. It makes no sense, especially when it's entirely possible in 20 years most of the post office work will be done by machines. You can't require pre-funding future employees' health care when you don't even know how many future employees there will be.

 

[snowhiker]

COVID-19 has killed more people than have died in the last 100 years. I think that's what was said. It's hard to tell really. Kamala will be president in less than 6 months if Biden is elected.

The Dems have just now started to condemn the RIOTS because the poll numbers are showing massive increases for Trump. Trump is now polling above where he was against Clinton 4 years ago. Even Don Lemon had to admit, after polling data showed, that MOST people don't want to defund the police.

 

[Chewy509]

Seriously?

https://arstechnica.com/science/202...hing-herd-immunity-idea-lambasted-by-experts/

I don't know if this quote is fitting or not?

"A Single Death Is a Tragedy; A Million Deaths Is a Statistic"
-Joseph Stalin

 

[jtr1962]

Seriously?

https://arstechnica.com/science/202...hing-herd-immunity-idea-lambasted-by-experts/

I don't know if this quote is fitting or not?

"A Single Death Is a Tragedy; A Million Deaths Is a Statistic"
-Joseph Stalin

He's probably serious about it but when people start dying in large numbers they'll take their own measures to slow the spread. You can't force people to go out and about as usual when bodies are stacked ten deep.

Trump doesn't care about people dying unless it's at the hands of rioters. The pandemic has killed more people by far than rioters ever could.

 

[Handruin]

The Dems have just now started to condemn the RIOTS because the poll numbers are showing massive increases for Trump. Trump is now polling above where he was against Clinton 4 years ago. Even Don Lemon had to admit, after polling data showed, that MOST people don't want to defund the police.

That's not true. Plenty of high level Democrats have spoken out against violence, police brutality, and rioters since Floyd and BLM movement for months. Many people want the overly simplistic term of defund the police to go away and be more articulate about steps to reform the police. More accountability is needed at a basic level.

Also, Trump is currently in charge with all this violence, riots, pandemic, loss of life, job loss, etc yet people keep pointing fingers at Democrats for their lack of condemnation. Why the hell isn't Trump getting shit on more; he's also campaigning for office again just like Biden. If you see what's happening now...it's exactly what will happen for four more years under trump. This isn't hypothetical, it's actual. Here and now is where the change needs to start. Somehow it's ok for the other side to overlook this and just blame democrats for supposedly not speaking against violence sooner? Trump isn't even doing anything to make it better now, in fact his actions and inactions are making it worse.

Look, I really don't like Biden either and he has loads of issues that can be nitpicked. When you compare the two candidates to evaluate a lesser of two evils, trump is so further gone with his selfishness and fascist actions that he has to go. He hasn't stepped up to the plate to handle a pandemic and it's on his watch. He doesn't get to blame anyone, he owns this. What makes you think he would do anything more to help this situation for four more years?

 

[jtr1962]

Dictator Donald Trump would be unstoppable in a second term

As mental health professionals, we cannot remain silent. Trump's authoritarian presidency is a national emergency

www.salon.com

 

[jtr1962]

He hasn't stepped up to the plate to handle a pandemic and it's on his watch. He doesn't get to blame anyone, he owns this. What makes you think he would do anything more to help this situation for four more years?

This is really the biggest reason that Trump has to go. He loves to talk about safety and law and order but part of the duty of government is also to protect people from dangerous, contagious diseases like this one. In that regard, he has failed utterly. I'm even willing to give him a free pass for what happened from March through May. China was less than forthcoming with information, a lot of other leaders, like NYC's Mayor, bungled the response big time. Doctors were still on a steep learning curve. So maybe the first 50K deaths were pretty much inevitable. However, by May when it was apparent that even a hard-hit place like NYC could get this under control, he had a virtual blueprint to follow for the rest of the country. The spread should have mostly ended in the Northeast. By now we should have been down to a few daily deaths, not 1,000 per day. Instead, he politicized mask wearing, touted ineffective treatments, and encouraged reopening the country before the virus was under control. Other countries which were very hard hit got this under control. We didn't. He owns anything over 50K deaths. That's another 140K deaths and counting which just didn't need to happen. It'll likely be an additional quarter million deaths by the end of November if projections are correct. Amazing his followers couldn't care less about this, and care more about some tens of people killed in riots.

 

[Handruin]

I agree with you that covid was inevitably going to get to the US no matter who was sitting at the helm of the presidency and some number of deaths/infected would be expected. It's tough to speculate the initial numbers of infected and deaths but yes, way more should have been done to help mitigate it in so many ways...mainly uniformity in the message as well as support for the states to get things under control rather than fight with them because of politics. No one person is going to get all the answers right but countries like New Zealand (among others) figured out a way to manage it.

You're right, it was a basic blueprint from NYC who was the hardest hit and still pulled through. If trump had a good team of advisors they would have worked together and focused on what worked and what didn't then roll this out. It's incredible the politics at play and the disinformation campaign because there is an election right around the corner. We barely hear anything in any form of media about covid....like it has gone away. That's part the media's fault as well. People I know IRL that are strong right-wing aligned still doubt that this is a pandemic. More than one has said to me that since they don't know anyone who has died, they don't believe this is really a big deal. Their focus point is they have to see/experience it first hand to believe it. It's the same narrative stereodude was touting with the dangerous pretense of filming of your hospital BS months ago before he rage-quit.

This country definitely needs something far better than trump or biden. For now we have to pick the closest battle and try to make progress from here.

 

[DrunkenBastard]

Does anyone else get the feeling that Trump senses he may not win the next election, thus is creating as much havoc for the next person to clean up?

The Dems have predicted victory before based on polling numbers ...was reading something about how Republicans are significantly more likely to not reveal that they would be voting for Trump, they speak at the ballot box and not before. Which you can't really blame them for, some people get irrationally upset when Trump is brought up in a non-negative light.

Given the attempts to subvert the will of the people via impeachment proceedings and continuing issues with lack of law and order in several Dem led cities, I could see there being more support for Trump this year than 2016.

 

[DrunkenBastard]

Well, in all fairness she also condemned the riots and looting:

Kamala Harris condemns looting, violence in wake of police shooting

U.S. presidential nominee Joe Biden's running mate Kamala Harris on Thursday denounced the looting and acts of violence that followed the police shooting of a Black man, as Republicans sought to paint the two Democrats as weak on crime.

www.reuters.com

I'm not thrilled with either Harris or Biden but it's clear at this point Trump has to go. Just his poor handling of the pandemic is reason enough but the last day of the RNC was a disgrace, using federal property for political purposes. And now you have Trump supporters in assault vehicles trying to run over protesters:

The Flag-Covered Assault Truck is 'Trump 2020' Ad — Streetsblog USA

President Trump has an indelible one for his re-election campaign: pickup trucks ramming into civil rights protesters.

usa.streetsblog.org

If these are the kind of people who support Trump, it just underscores the need to get rid of him. They're just as bad as the rioters or looters, maybe worse because they're agitating things. Maybe the protesters should start deploying IEDs at the perimeter to protect themselves.

This is another disgusting thing:

Trump Supporters Rush to Defend One of Their Own Who Killed Protesters in Kenosha

The Fox News host said Kyle Rittenhouse, who shot and killed two men during a protest in Kenosha, Wisconsin, “had to maintain order.”

theintercept.com

I don't know whether or not Kyle Rittenhouse acted in legitimate self-defense but Trump supporters defending sending an untrained 17 year old with an assault rifle into a hot zone are fucking sick. Kyle should have stayed home, not been rallied to whatever stupid cause he thought he was serving. Now if a jury doesn't see things his way his life will be ruined. I'm sure he meant well, but the proverbial road to hell is paved with good intentions.

And note, I don't support looting or wanton destruction of property, especially when it's middle class businesses. That's an entirely separate issue but there's a good amount of evidence out there that it's not just Antifa and other far left groups behind the rioting and looting:

What we know about the extremists taking part in riots across the US

Law enforcement and federal officials say outside elements from both far-right and far-left groups are helping fuel the violent and damaging confrontations that have marred protests across the country in recent days, despite President Donald Trump's focus just on Antifa and the far left.

www.cnn.com

Trump supporters have a stake in this also for obvious reasons. The worse things get the more Trump can push the law and order meme.

We're on the brink of a civil war. No idea how it's going to turn out, but I suggest anyone with any sense get 6 months or more of supplies and just hunker down until it passes. Might be a good thing if the radicals on both sides kill each other off. The country can do without them. You need stuff like this from time to time to get rid of the bad blood, to paraphrase one of my favorite quotes from The Godfather.

Kenosha protest shooting victims engaged with gunman, lawyers allege - National | Globalnews.ca

Kyle Rittenhouse, of Antioch, Illinois, has been charged with fatally shooting two protesters and wounding a third. Attorneys representing Rittenhouse have said he acted to defend himself.

globalnews.ca

It was self defense. He was protecting businesses in areas where they had been torched the previous night. He was also trying to help people who were injured by giving them shelter, the mob didn't like that.

 

[jtr1962]

It was self defense. He was protecting businesses in areas where they had been torched the previous night. He was also trying to help people who were injured by giving them shelter, the mob didn't like that.

17 years old, untrained, he really had no business being there. He should have been at home watching Netflix instead of acting like he's Bruce Willis. Unless those were his personal businesses, what's his stake here? I can see putting your life on the line to protect others, but no way would I risk my life to protect property, especially when it's not even my property. Their business insurance will cover any losses from looting.

As for the people injured by the mob, there would be two categories. One would be people who weren't involved on either side just deciding to see what was going on. Since it was late night, they would have zero reason to be there to work or shop, just to satisfy their morbid curiosity. Sorry, you go into a hot zone like that, don't expect people to help you if anything bad happens. Or two, they could have been on one side or the other, and got hurt in the clashes. In that case, their fault and their problem. Live by the sword, die by the sword. There's no scenario where anyone there needs to be "rescued". Voluntarily put yourself in harm's way, it's your problem, not mine. Bottom line, we don't need or want self-styled militia groups coming into these areas. They're just going to stir up the pot and make things worse. We have law enforcement to deal with riots and looting. If these guys decide to come to NYC to "help", Cuomo will see to it that they get a long stint as a guest of the state. The NYPD are bad enough. We don't need a bunch of nutcases with AR-15s coming in as well.

Antioch teen Kyle Rittenhouse appears in court on murder charges for Kenosha protest shooting, lawyers say he acted in self-defense

Kyle Rittenhouse, 17, will remain in Illinois custody until his next hearing in September for murder charges in the shooting of Kenosha protesters Tuesday night.

abc7chicago.com

"These armed men who have no connection to even the state. The guy is from out of town. So think about how ridiculous that is," Barnes said. "Who is he accountable to? Nobody. And for him to even be able to shoot somebody and walk away from the scene. You know they talk about finding a knife inside the car, not even on Jacob Blake's person. This guy is carrying a long gun, killed somebody just walking freely was able to get back home to Illinois. Then you know we got much bigger problems on our hands."

I read another account about him where classmates joked that he would be a mass shooter:

What the Kenosha shooter tells us about Donald Trump's America

Kyle Rittenhouse allegedly killed two people in Kenosha this week. He was acting out Donald Trump's violent script

www.salon.com

Some of his classmates joked that he'd be a mass shooter one day. "I personally believe he went to Wisconsin with the intent to kill," said one former classmate, who asked not to be identified out of fear for their safety....

This is a person Trump supporters are elevating to hero status, like those two fat, ugly loser personal injury lawyers in St. Louis??? That tells you all you need to know. You asked why some people get "irrationally" upset when people bring up Trump in a non-negative light? Maybe look at some of the people supporting him. Again, I really don't like Biden or Harris, but Trump is worse. And I'm saying that as someone who sung "Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead" when Hillary lost in 2016. We gave him a chance. He could have acted like a President of all the people. Instead, he made things worse than even I could have imagined. I hoped he would grow into the job. That obviously didn't happen. Time for him to go. If Biden/Harris fuck up, time for them to go in four years as well.

 

[Handruin]

The Dems have predicted victory before based on polling numbers ...was reading something about how Republicans are significantly more likely to not reveal that they would be voting for Trump, they speak at the ballot box and not before. Which you can't really blame them for, some people get irrationally upset when Trump is brought up in a non-negative light.

Given the attempts to subvert the will of the people via impeachment proceedings and continuing issues with lack of law and order in several Dem led cities, I could see there being more support for Trump this year than 2016.

In a small sample of the people I know and work with, there is no assumption or prediction of a Democratic victory. I make the point as a small comparison to the narrative of the media that may be leading this impression of a Democratic victory as a way of a psychological effect. The only place I read/hear of this is the media.

What kind of things are you seeing as being irrational when Trump is brought up?

I'm failing to see how this works when you mention the issues with there being a lack of law and order in Democratic cities. If there is a lack of law and order now...while under Trump. Why would any of these problems change if Trump gets a second term? I don't see how this would solve anything.

It's interesting that the impeachment is viewed as an attempt to subvert the people. There is some pretty shady stuff going on in this administration and the impeachment represented that. There are very few people remaining in Trump's close administration that haven't been indicted or convicted of crimes. Like wtf is going on that so many close people are being convicted?

Michael Flynn
George Papadopoulos
Michael Cohen
Roger Stone
Paul Manafort
Steve Bannon
Rick Gates
Richard Pinedo
Alex van der Zwaan

 

[jtr1962]

Yeah, you can judge a person by the company they keep. That list says it all.

 

[jtr1962]

No one person is going to get all the answers right but countries like New Zealand (among others) figured out a way to manage it.

But a number of countries with populations in the tens of millions managed to have only a few hundred deaths. So it was possible if things were handled correctly.

We barely hear anything in any form of media about covid....like it has gone away. That's part the media's fault as well. People I know IRL that are strong right-wing aligned still doubt that this is a pandemic. More than one has said to me that since they don't know anyone who has died, they don't believe this is really a big deal. Their focus point is they have to see/experience it first hand to believe it. It's the same narrative stereodude was touting with the dangerous pretense of filming of your hospital BS months ago before he rage-quit.

The left-wing media especially should keep covid front and center. It's actually the one issue more people are concerned with now than the riots. The same people who worry about a small number of deaths in the riots should know that under this President's watch 6 figures of Americans died who didn't need to.

I don't know anyone who died but my brother does. It was someone who worked in his hospital. One of my brother's neighbors knows 6 people who died. And a friend of mine knows one person who died. Not from covid, but still partially due to Trump spreading misinformation. He drank isopropyl alcohol and bleach because he was worried he might have been exposed to the virus. So he took Trump's idea of taking disinfectants internally literally.

Whatever the disagreements we may have had with SD on politics, it's a shame he decided to just up and quit like that.

This country definitely needs something far better than trump or biden. For now we have to pick the closest battle and try to make progress from here.

I agree. Whoever wins this time, I hope someone better runs in 2024 for both parties....if we still have a country then.