Eneloop Alternatives (or Cracking The Battery Lingo Codewords)

[sechs]

Some of us obviously have more pedestrian needs than others. I appreciate the distinction.

I think that you mean that some of us have more exotic needs than others....

 

[jtr1962]

Sorry to be so pedantic. I've spent too many decades designing chargers, and buying and testing a thousand batteries. I became very interested in NiCd cells starting in 1967.

In other words, it's a hobby for you. I'm the same way with rechargeables. I probably have way more than I'll ever use, and way more chargers than I need just for the battery-powered devices I have. However, I enjoy playing around with rechargeable cells for its own sake. It all started when my mom's cousin introduced me to NiCds in the early 1970s and hasn't stopped since. Lately though I just use Eneloops as a kind of no-brainer solution to almost all my battery needs. Granted, some cells are higher capacity, but I love the robustness of Eneloops. I know they'll give me 2000 to 2100 mAh both now and 5 years from now. I lot of the higher capacity cells I've tried just crap out after a couple of years.

 

[LunarMist]

How well does an Eneloop function in a mouse?

 

[ddrueding]

How well does an Eneloop function in a mouse?

Quite well; about 60% of my ~75 AA Eneloops are in mice and keyboards.

 

[LunarMist]

Thanks. The mouse feels heavy with two cells. It works with only one cell, which is odd since the battery compartment as the typical 2-cell series orientation. I guess not.

 

[udaman]

Lately though I just use Eneloops as a kind of no-brainer solution to almost all my battery needs. Granted, some cells are higher capacity, but I love the robustness of Eneloops. I know they'll give me 2000 to 2100 mAh both now and 5 years from now. I lot of the higher capacity cells I've tried just crap out after a couple of years.

That's quite debatable, and it will also depend on *how* the cells are used/abused. The Lenmar 2000ma standard NiMH AA's I bought, all 8 crapped out on me after a year or less with <50 cycles for a very rough estimate, i'd say it was far fewer but more than say 5-10, at a time when Engergizers were @2300ma. My Maha 1550ma (made in Taiwan says the label) cells are ready to be tossed for lack of ability to hold a charge/drastically reduced capacity and the positive white, terminal end caps look brown from searing heat, they are what about 5-10yrs of use, but not even close to 100 cycles. I'll bet the Eneloops I just got, won't last 5yrs, and if they do, there capacity will be <1/2 orig.

In a lot of devices, headphone amp, old port cassette/radio player, port. small speakers, Edmund Sci, weather station base unit w/remove wireless sensor/transmitter I can let the batteries get so far dead, that my 15min microprocessor controlled Uniross charger will not even charge them- requiring me to use the old Maha 204 charger for initial 'boost' charge (initially putting the batteries into the 204c I get a temp red led flash, then nothing, then have to hold down the discharge button for each channel to get the charger to go into forced charging mode).

After that, say 5min charge, then I can take the cells out, let them sit and cool down before putting them into the 15min charger.

 

[LunarMist]

In other words, it's a hobby for you.

I was seriously considering it as a side business, which may not have been the best idea anyway. In 1980 there were not many commercial high-speed chargers for various NiCd cells. (Most were time and temp back then.) I made several prototypes of smart chargers and did a lot of testing. Later on the guy that supposedly had a connection to cheap production and assembly of the main PCB got his girlfriend pregnant and disappeared. Then I got a better job, so that was the end of that. I continued to design and play around with various chargers on and off until about 15 years ago. Over the years I would buy four of practically every new brand and model of AA cell and run a 300-500 cycle charge/discharge test on many of them. It was an automated, but non-computerized testing. Looking back, it would have been nice to have all the data in computer.

Now it is all a moot point. NiCd cells are not environmentally friendly and capacity basically topped out in the 90s, so global usage is limited. Cheap, sophisticated MAHA or La Crosse, etc. chargers do just fine on free NiMH cells. Practically everything else is LiIon or LiPO.

 

[MaxBurn]

Consumerist mention:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/08/sanyo-eneloop-lite-ni-mh-rechargeable-batteries-are-cheap-less/

 

[Stereodude]

I don't get the whole Lite thing, but I'm sure some marketing genius thinks they can sell 'em.

 

[LunarMist]

I don't get the whole Lite thing, but I'm sure some marketing genius thinks they can sell 'em.

I don't get it either. :scratch: The AA batteries are cheap enough and last for years. Who wants less capacity? Maybe it would work for a D or C cell with a smaller cell inside.

 

[ddrueding]

Are they physically lighter as well? I could be into that for some applications...

 

[jtr1962]

I don't get it either. :scratch: The AA batteries are cheap enough and last for years. Who wants less capacity? Maybe it would work for a D or C cell with a smaller cell inside.

That makes three of us. All the eneloop AAs I bought cost me $2.50 or less per cell. That's cheap enough in my book. I wouldn't even want the Eneloop Lites unless they cost like a buck each.

 

[LunarMist]

Are they physically lighter as well? I could be into that for some applications...

I doubt that it would be noticeable.

 

[Chewy509]

Just to revive an old thread.

My current AA rechargeables are starting to decline in their ability to hold a charge, (INCA 2700 mAh) after about 4 yrs of semi-regular use in a digital camera. The ones I have used to last a full day out and about with the camera taking around 120-150 shots (with roughly 50% flash usage). But recently I seem to only get half that number of shots before the low battery warning comes up.

Are the Eneloops still the ones to get (despite their lower mAh rating), or is their something else I should be looking for? Use will be with a Fuji S6500fd camera, and already have a Inca AA/AAA NiMH charger (1.2V DC 450mA charge rate) that I would like to keep using.

 

[time]

In a subtropical climate, self-discharge is probably running at 30% a month, so yes, Eneloops are still the ones to get. Anecdotally, you are more likely to be able to rely on Sanyo's capacity claims - especially with Eneloops - and traditional NiMH can lose 10% just in the first day, so you may not be giving up anything much in true capacity.

I'm a little perplexed by your charger. Isn't it the style that requires 2 or even 4 batteries to work?

Assuming the quoted output current is correct, it is not a 'fast' charger, but more likely a timed charger. I'd guess it charges for 5 or 6 hours, then switches to trickle charge - is that right? Do you leave the batteries overnight to fully charge them?

 

[LunarMist]

Eneloops are still just fine. Although one can argue about a few percent more (labeled) from other brands of LSD cells, I prefer the Sanyo brand for over 40 years. A 0.2-0.25C charge rate is also a good choice. I don't know if that particular charger is a good one, but most for NiMH use ΔV even at that rate.

 

[Chewy509]

I'm a little perplexed by your charger. Isn't it the style that requires 2 or even 4 batteries to work?

The charger I have can charge single batteries, doesn't require 2 or 4 in place for it to work.

Assuming the quoted output current is correct, it is not a 'fast' charger, but more likely a timed charger. I'd guess it charges for 5 or 6 hours, then switches to trickle charge - is that right? Do you leave the batteries overnight to fully charge them?

Yes, that's correct - it's a timed model not a fast charger. It normally takes 5-6 hrs to charge and will trickle charge if batteries are left in. Typically, if I know I need the batteries the day before, I'll put them in the charger to charge overnight, which for me is the normal case.
I'm just lucky that the camera uses normal AA batteries, so can always grab some AAs off the shelf if I don't get the NiMH charged in time.

 

[Chewy509]

Thanks for the replies, I'll get the Sanyo's. (The local camera place has the Eneloops for the same price as the INCA 2700mAh batteries for a 4 pack).

 

[Stereodude]

Timed chargers are not a good idea. You want a delta V charger for NiMH.

 

[time]

Yes, that's where I was heading.

C/6 is too slow for reliable -ΔV and probably even for Δtemp, and timers often rely on C/5, so I deduced Chewy must rely on trickle to finish the job.

The trickle current in that style of charger is usually too high for maintenance charging, so you may have been inadvertently shortening the battery life by leaving them in overnight. The charger can't detect overcharging in this case and unlike NiCd, NiMH just can't tolerate it.

The timed charge obviously requires the batteries to be exhausted before charging. If not, you run the strong risk of overcharging during the timed cycle, relying on the charger's over-temperature protection to switch to trickle before the cycle is complete.

In short, you might want to consider a 'smart' charger with a rate between C and C/3, i.e. one to three hours charge time. The timer is only used as backup protection on these.

 

[LunarMist]

I prefer a charger with multiple current options. The AA Eneloops charge quite nicely at 500mA without generating much heat.

 

[time]

Well obviously they don't generate much heat with 500mA: 25mW in fact, if the battery is normal. But you're making it very difficult for the charger to detect the increase in the temperature delta and particularly the drop in the voltage delta. So your risk of overcharging at 0.25C is very high.

This obsession with temperature in all things electronic is a stupid urban myth that really needs to be called out. In this case, it's a chemical reaction that works just fine up to 2 amps (400 mW) and up to 40°C at least (55°C max). The temperature rises when the battery is fully charged because of a change in the chemical reaction - that's when the charger is supposed to stop the rapid charging phase.

 

[Chewy509]

@Time, LM and SD, thanks for the input. I'll get a new charger at the same time.
Recommendations? (If I get the Sanyo Eneloops, would the matching charger be fine for them. eg: http://www.sanyo.com.au/products/batteries/rechargeable/ncmqr06a4s#keyfeatures )?

Reading the specs on the charger I have (It's an "INCA PC-70 Multi Voltage Fast Charger"), doesn't leave much confidence that it is in fact a fast charger. To confirm the output rate for charge is 1.2V 450mA, which would make it a fast charger for some 500mAh NiCD batteries, but certainly not for the 2700mAh batteries I'm using. (The batteries came with the charger, so it's not that they were mismatched or anything at the time of sale).

When I do leave the current batteries in the charger overnight, they do get extremely hot during the charging cycle, so I would suspect it is a timer based charger, not delta V or delta T.

 

[Howell]

Timed chargers were very common before NiMH and are cheaper to produce so they are often bundled with batteries as a kit to keep the price down. That Sanyo you linked to is not one you want.

There are others that will work I presume but I have never heard anything bad about Maja. I personally have the Maja MH-401FS. As a bonus, it is the same price to you as the the Sanyo.

 

[Handruin]

Timed chargers were very common before NiMH and are cheaper to produce so they are often bundled with batteries as a kit to keep the price down. That Sanyo you linked to is not one you want.

There are others that will work I presume but I have never heard anything bad about Maja. I personally have the Maja MH-401FS. As a bonus, it is the same price to you as the the Sanyo.

I have a similar MAHA as the one above, but in black and it has a clear plastic door that covers the batteries (which I never use). I got it from Thomas Distributing to use with my AA and AAA Eneloops.

 

[Howell]

MAHA

Jaja, si senor. Mine came from Thomas too.

 

[time]

I can't find the perfect charger, but looking around Oz at the moment, I can see Maha Powerex. This guy has really good refs on Whirlpool; I think he also gives a discount although I don't know where the code is.

I can also see an Enecharger from Master Instruments which is somewhat cheaper (I don't know anything about the actual retailer I linked to, but MI is an Eneloop distributor and have selected that charger to bundle with the batteries).

 

[ddrueding]

I use a powerex with my eneloops. Work great.

 

[LunarMist]

I got eight of these so each color has it's own group.

 

[Stereodude]

I'm not sure I should even ask what retailer you found those at...

 

[LunarMist]

That is an odd question as they are widely available. Of course I ordered online. Try here or search the Froggle.

 

[Howell]

Now you can accessorize so many outfits.

 

[Stereodude]

I can't think of any electronic devices I have that have a transparent battery compartment door or would otherwise allow you to see the batteries.

 

[LunarMist]

That is not the point for me, although I understand it is designed to appeal aesthetically. I need to keep sets of batteries identified for use status and especially charging purposes. Over the years I have tried all sorts of methods, such as markers, paint, using multiple brands, etc. The Glitter cells work great as I don't need glasses to easily identify which cells go together in a set.

 

[LunarMist]

Now you can accessorize so many outfits.

They are not available in dark green, brown, tan, or camo.

I need one to match.

 

[Stereodude]

The Glitter cells work great as I don't need glasses to easily identify which cells go together in a set.

I can only presume you bought more than one set than since most devices don't use just 1 battery.

 

[LunarMist]

I said that I bought 8 sets. Was that not clear above?

 

[Stereodude]

There's 8 batteries in a package, 8 sets... Nevermind...

 

[LunarMist]

I figure that is enough for the next five years. I am giving a couple of reconstituted sets for Christmas, probably the pink and violet cells.