EOS 350D lens

The JoJo

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Hi,

I'm thinking about buying either one of these:
CANON EF-S 55-250 MM F4-5.6 IS
CANON OBJ. EF 75-300 MM F4.0-5.6 III USM

Any comments on either of them? They seem to be the ones in the right price range. For the first one, which I would prefer (the IS part...), they aren't sure when it will arrive. Hopefully before Christmas, which is my deadline :).
Also I'm a bit limited on what to get, the prefered place only has Canon lenses so that is the place I'll buy from.

Comments? I haven't yet read / searched for information about this here, sorry about that. I know you fellas have a lot of talk about this subject here...:)

Thanks!

JoJo
 

Pradeep

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I can only recommend what I've used, the 70-200mm L 2.8, and the 100mm Macro (this has very nice resolution). Enjoy.
 

LunarMist

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Lens reviews are not particularly meaningful as they are often full of personal agendas, inconsistency and just plain nonsense. There are several test sites such as here and here that may be relevant. I don't know anything about the 55-250 EF-S, since it is was recently announced and is not available everywhere. The current 70-300 non-IS is acceptably mediocre as one would expect. Presumably you would be using it on a tripod as compared to the 55-250 IS which is much more hand friendly. I'd rather get the 70-300 IS is that general category of lens since it has the IS and covers the full 43mm image circle.
 

e_dawg

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I like slrgear.com for lens reviews.

The 75-300 is known as a very mediocre lens much like the Nikon 70-300 around the same price. Don't know much about the 55-250, but it will likely be better than the 75-300.
 

mubs

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Thanks e_dawg.

I've read that somebody buying an SLR or DSLR for the first time should pick the lens system first and then decide which camera body to buy, and this makes sense.

The big question is whether to go with Canon or Nikkor glass. I'd really value your advice on this.

Ideally, I'd like to go from 17 - 300 mm (or reasonable compromises) in 35 mm terms. I'd want IS at the long end. Probably also a prime at f1.4 for portraits. The smallest number of lenses to achieve this would help to minimize changes and what I'd have to lug around, but realistically looks like it'll be 3 lenses. These would go on a Canon APS-C or a Nikon DX DSLR. Rather than waste money on cheap lenses, I'll wait till I have enough to buy the best stuff, eg., L glass if going Canon.

Thanks (and The JoJo, sorry for hijacking your thread :erm:)
 

e_dawg

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A couple issues that I have been pondering wrt Canon vs Nikon glass:

How fast do you want your telezooms and how big/heavy are you willing to carry?

How important are wide angle primes to you?

IMO, these are the two main areas in which Canon has a better selection (from my perspective... I'm sure there are other areas for which others will chime in).

e.g., Canon has the 70-200/4L IS and 24/1.4L, which are two useful lenses that Nikon does not have equivalents for.

The 70-200/4 is a light and compact alternative for those who want something faster than the f/5.6 mainstream consumer telezooms but don't want to carry the massive 70-200/2.8 VR lens.

The 24/1.4 is IMO the perfect focal length (or a 28/1.8 if you prefer) if you want a single all-purpose walkaround/city/social gather prime lens (38 mm @ 35eq). The "normal" field of view that replicates human vision is achieved with a 43 mm focal length (35 mm equiv).

Beyond the lenses, I prefer Nikon's implementation of Auto ISO, their wireless CLS multi-flash commander/slave flash system, and the Capture NX raw development and editing software.

I also like the dynamic range of the Fuji Pro SLR bodies, which are unique in the market and use the Nikon lens mount.

If compact and lightweight is your prime requirement, check out Olympus's E-system. I can go from 24-300 (35eq) in 2 quality lenses or 14-400 (35eq) in 3.
 

udaman

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... I'm sure there are other areas for which others will chime in).

The "normal" field of view that replicates human vision is achieved with a 43 mm focal length (35 mm equiv).


If compact and lightweight is your prime requirement, check out Olympus's E-system. I can go from 24-300 (35eq) in 2 quality lenses or 14-400 (35eq) in 3.

Geez, e_dawg, I think your post is more appropriate for another thread, or general dSLR thread considering the wide breath of topics/issues you've very briefly opened Pandora’s box on :D. The OP would appear to want something that will not cost an arm and a leg for a Canon Rebel series dSLR, keep that in mind and focus, which means the 70-300 IS for ~$650 is about all the OP wants to spend. Just one lens, nothing else. Consider for the price of that lens if you're not insuring it against loss or damage, that you could buy a bridge 18x zoom PnS for less and not have to worry as much if it got stolen, broken/damaged.

E-series & all smaller dSLR cams have lousy ergonomics compared to the Oly OM-1. They are all too narrow for optimum handling holding with two hands handheld shooting position. Canon 5D has the width correct, everything else about the body sucks compared to the OM-1, which should be the model for compact/lightweight dSLR design of FF sensor dSLRs.

I would disagree about human angle of vision, 36mm is not even close to the view I get with my eyes, unless you are only considering monoview of one eye. Peripheral vision of two human eyes is my much wider than 36mm. I should know, I've tried to take pictures of my mother's greenhouse in flower, to capture the FOV that I'm seeing with my eyes, only to be disappointed in my PnS Oly C-50 (which btw, has both 3 or 5 exposure bracketing! 1EV, this old PnS has better functionality than a D40...if crappier image quality).

I need a 24mm F3.5 TS-3 Canon lens to get what I want, and then I need a huge Canon 5D to get me that FOV. ~$3K just for simple human eye peripheral vision approximation....sheeesh!

Watch, in 5 yrs, what I want will be available in an OM-1 sized body with ISO 6400 & IS, for under $1k…but my mother will be dead by then, and I’ll not have the images I want to capture now of her GH, while she’s alive :(
 

mubs

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1) OP worded post badly; would like everybody's input, not just e_dawg's. That includes LM, Tannin, etc.

2) Uda, OP is not interested in Rebel class bodies! It will be a 40D or D300. And where did I say that I wanted to spend only $650? And that I wanted only one lens? Huh?

E_D, I'd lean more towards zooms than fixed focal lengths, except perhaps for a portrait prime.

Nikon's strengths that you mentioned are certainly very attractive.
 

Gilbo

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If you want to get technical udaman, you have a 180 degree FOV with the human eye when looking straight forward (hence the conserved, evolutionary notches in our skulls to either side of our eyeballs). So by the definition of FOV, a "normal" lense would be something like a 10/10.5mm fisheye. This however, is not the definition of a normal lense. FOV is often brought into the discussion of what is a normal lense. In fact, across the internet it is nearly universally assumed to be the defining characteristic --this only goes to show how "common knowledge" drowns out reality on the interweb. FOV is related only symptomatically to the actual defining characteristic: perspective.

"Normal" lenses imitate the perspective of the human eye; they are not even close to the FOV of the human eye. By perspective I mean the relative separation/compression between foreground & background elements. This seperation and compression of perspective is often most noticed when using wide-angle & telephoto lenses respectively. "Wide-angle", "telephoto", "normal" --all these things are referring to perspective distortion, and "normal" in the context of lenses and optical systems means the perspective distortion that closely matches our own eyes'.

Now, if you look at what is considered a "normal" lense on 35mm sensors, the 50mm, it has a field of view of 46 degrees --not even close to the 180 degree field of view of the human eye. The average eye's focal length is 17mm if you're curious, but the equation to determine FOV for the optical system that is the human eye is very different from the one we can use on rectilinear lenses projecting onto flat, square sensors, because, 1) the human eye is not a rectilinear lense, but a fisheye, and 2) the sensor is not flat & square, but rounded & oval (circular?). Different math is needed (which I can't do off hand), but you can experimentally verify the 180 degree thing yourself, quite easily by staring straigh ahead and moving your hand beside your head.

Anyhoo, it's perspective, not field of view... so if anyone wants to match field of view they're better buying a fisheye rather than a "normal" or even a rectilinear wide-angle, but that's not normally what people are trying to do when they pull out a normal lense:

Picking a lense, picking a perspective is all about two things: 1) varying the relative intimacy of the subjects (or subject) in a photograph to achieve the effect and the relationship you want, and 2) varying the intimacy of the viewer (the person looking at the photograph) with the subjects contained in to photo to achieve the effect and the relationship you want. The latter is where normal lenses are special. If the effect you're looking for is to bring the viewer into the photograph you have made, then normal lenses have a special advantage: they make you feel like you're there because they lack the perspective distortion "giveaways" that wide-angle or telephoto lenses possess. Hence they are favourites for candid photography, or photo journalism, subjects where you want to connect the viewer of your photograph intimately with the subject of your photography.
 

Gilbo

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It's also worth mentioning that Pentax produced a 43mm prime, because it is the perfect "normal" lense by the aforementioned standards. Why they insist on other weird focal lengths like 31mm & 77mm no one knows (witchcraft perhaps?).

P.S. Sorry for the OT.

On topic:
1. Wireless Flash:
The advantages of Nikon's flash/lighting system should not be underestimated if you have an interest in flash photography. It completely changes the way you work with flashes relative to the Canon system (or the Pentax, Olympus, & Sony systems for that matter). It's phenomenal. Then again in my experience, the vast majority of amateur/hobbiest photographers don't use flash at all or only in the most simplistic contexts for which Nikon's system is complete overkill.

2. TTL & e-TTL:
On that note, everyone has TTL, through-the-lens metering for their flashes now. But I believe that only Canon & Nikon can use the focus distance from the AF to judge power without firing a test shot (which causes people to blink as well as lots of annoying missed shots when people think the first flash indicates the exposure when it doesn't). This is very nice if you use a flash on auto. OTOH I've personally have never used a flash on auto... Flash is a beast for which the "correct exposure" in the computer's mind is so often different from the correct exposure aesthetically as to render the computer's opinion completely useless so often that it's never worth bothering with.

3. Availability of IS
Bear in mind that Olympus, Pentax, & Sony all have in-body IS in at least some of their bodies. This is a substantial advantage that should be considered. IS combined with a fast prime can be remarkably useful in some situations. It gives you IS with a vast collection of 1st-party & 3rd-party lenses. I would not have bought the excellently-reviewed Sigma 100-300mm f/4 if I was not using a Pentax body with built-in IS. Because I am however, this lense becomes the best choice for me (I'd take it over Nikon or Canon's great 70-200mm's). Recently Canon has put IS into some of its shorter zooms to make up for the lack of in-body IS, but nothing in primes.

4. Lense Selection:
Nikon & Canon have a very complete selection of zooms, but neither is interested in producing high-quality, updated primes. Pentax on the other hand is very interested in providing a wide variety of high-quality, compact prime lenses, but is currently lacking a selection of 1st-party telephoto zooms. This will be somewhat remedied by the 50-135mm f/2.8 & 60-250mm f/4 (which is a phenomenally useful focal length range on cropped sensors). I say "somewhat remedied" because they're both DA* lenses (L in Canon speak) and are expensive, and not small. Olympus has probably the highest quality, most awesome zooming glass available, but only one prime (a sin considering what they could do with some compact primes and that 4/3 sensor!).

A little more on Pentax because I moved to them from Nikon recently and feel the need to comment in a little more depth on what I have learned through the transition. Pentax has a tendency to flesh out the niches in its lense line-up, creating things that no one else has. They have 3, super-compact, pancake primes (pic of the super-compactness ) for example. They have a 10-17mm fisheye zoom, which is actually shockingly useful & fun. A lightweight 16-45mm f/4 zoom (a very useful focal length in cropped sensor format) in addition to the faster (but bigger & heavier) 16-50mm f/2.8 which they offer against the 17-55mm f/2.8's from Nikon & Canon. The difference between the FOV of a 16mm & a 17mm is much more significant than it sounds, but Pentax felt like the range would be more useful on wide end than on the long. They made the effort to hit the classic 24mm focal length at the wide end. (And I completely agree that it was worth it: 50-55 is a desert of opportunities --pull out a portrait lense or just shoot normal, but 16 over 17 is handy all the time). Was it more difficult? Probably. Does 16-45 sound remotely like a conventional focal length? Not at all, but that's Pentax for better or worse.

So, they really go the extra mile to flesh out the sytem and offer unique glass that you can't get elsewhere; they don't stick to the hot sellers like Canon & Nikon. (For example, is the optically uncompromising, built like a tank 31mm f/1.4 a profit maker maker? Primes don't sell much in this day and age. I'm sure they make a little on it, but why spend resources developing that when there are surer bets? Who knows but Pentax does. Perhaps they see it as the one way to stay alive against Canon & Nikon.)

5. Body Ergonomics:
Now, bodies even among manufacturers differ a great deal, but there are some generalizations that most detached people would make. Nikon control layouts have always just made sense. Nikon cares about this a great deal. Canon bodies, on the other hand, --not to say they're bad-- tend to have little things that vary from little layout idiosyncrasies to brain dead stupid (They include a dedicated Pictbridge "Print" button, but make it impossible to even customize a mirror lock-up button on a pro body!). The company also stubbornly insists they know better. Pros have complained about the lack of mirror lock-up forever and gotten exactly nowhere.

Pentax, again, get a little unconventional with the ergonomics. In Programmed Auto, you can switch into Shutter Priority or Aperture Priority just by moving the appropriate control wheel. Hitting the magic green button (near the shutter release) sends you back to Programmed Auto. This is the kind of simple, special touch that makes shooting with the camera easier/better, and it makes so much sense it now infuriates me that I can't get this feature anywhere else. Once you get used to it, it boggles your mind that you can't adjust the shutter speed up a couple stops in low light, or stop the aperture down for a greater DOF during that quick portrait-landscape when out hiking without reaching for the mode dial on other cameras. This displeases me greatly on other bodies now... (I know it doesn't sound like much, but the little things...)

In manual, that same green button instantly dials in the Programmed Auto exposure. Simple, small touch? Yes. Useful, saves time? Again, surprisingly often... These are features that you didn't know you couldn't live without until you try them.

6 Viewfinders:
The view finder is one of the most important thing for most people, and for cropped frame bodies Pentax > Nikon > Canon. This holds true at the bottom for K100D vs D40/D50/D70/D80 vs Rebel XTi/Rebel XT, as well as in the mid-range for the K10D vs the D200 vs the Canon 30D/40D. The 40D may match the D200. Nikon's new D300 ups the ante a bit D300. It has 100% frame coverage which no one offers except in their pro bodies (Pentax doesn't have a "pro" body). The magnification is still less than the K10D, but it's a barely bigger viewfinder thanks to that 100% coverage. Obviously things are different for full-frame bodies (Word is D3 > Canon 1Ds MkII > Canon 5D, don't know about the MkIII), and none of the cropped-frame bodies compare with their full-frame competitors.

7. Weather Sealing:
Pentax has sealed the K10D. For Canon & Nikon you have to go up to the pro bodies. I think, but can't confirm, that Canon & Nikon's latest generation prosumer bodies, the D300 & 40D, may have some sort of weather resistance.


Okay, that's enough. My musings became an essay. I hope some of it is useful, and I apologize for the Pentax pimping (if it came across that way) --I'm not a fanboy, there just happens to be quite a variety of things I like about the little things they pay attention to in fleshing out the system (I didn't actually realize there where that many things until I started writing it all out).
 

Gilbo

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In Programmed Auto, you can switch into Shutter Priority or Aperture Priority just by moving the appropriate control wheel...

In manual, that same green button instantly dials in the Programmed Auto exposure. Simple, small touch? Yes. Useful, saves time? Again, surprisingly often... These are features that you didn't know you couldn't live without until you try them.
Just to clarify, so I don't sound like a dumbass: Of course you can live without them. The alternative on non-Pentax bodies involves all of changing your grip for a moment and losing a half second; it's barely anything at all. But it's the kind of thing you'd really like to not live without once you get used to the convenience.

Also, I should elaborate on the 16-45mm f/4. In retrospect I didn't make clear why it's neat or worth mentioning. Every camera maker has a slower, lighter, smaller "Normal" zoom. It's often the kit lens or one of the kit lenses. The difference in this case is that the Pentax 16-45mm f/4 is shockingly good compared to most slow, normal zooms.

The trend among the lense manufacturers is to assume that people who care about the quality of a lense don't want a slow normal zoom, so the big boys don't make them. In fact there's a general trend among the big guys to assume that everyone who wants quality also wants speed and somehow doesn't care about the size or weight that the need for speed imposes. A 21mm f/3.2 doesn't sound very special until you see how small and light it is. The same is true for 40mm f/2.8 or a 70mm f/2.4, but all three of those lenses will fit in your pocket. Collectively they take up less space than most manufacturers kit lenses!

Pentax understands that compactness, lightweight and high-quality are very important to some people (obviously speed has to be sacrificed to build lenses like these), hence the pancake primes --hence the 16-45mm f/4. You don't feel silly as a Pentax user owning a 16-45mm f/4 and the 16-50mm f/2.8 DA* because sometimes you don't need the speed of the latter and you really don't want the size and the weight. Normally stepping down to the 1st-party, slow, normal zoom would result in a serious drop in quality, but not so in this case. It's nice.
 

mubs

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Gosh Gilbo, thanks for that fabulous post! I skimmed through it (am at work); will read it in detail later. Thanks bud!
 

LunarMist

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Is there any chance that Pentax will produce a better DSLR than the low end/consumer stuff for their good glass?
 

Tea

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Is there any chance that Gilbo will learn how to spell lens one day? It's L E N S repeat L E N S. This is not optional, variant, or up to the human, there is only one way to spell lens, and that is without an "e" on the end. It's driving me barmy!
 

Tannin

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You are right, Tea. I probably should read Gilbo's posts in this thread, but every time I try I get distracted by that weirdo illiterate spelling fetish of his, and find it difficult to go on.

Sorry Gilbo, it's not very rational, but I don't think I have the mental flexibility to take a post about photography seriously when the poster can't spell a perfectly simple four letter word. Hey, if you have trouble spelling "aperture" I'd understand, but lens? What's so hard about "lens"?
 

e_dawg

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1) OP worded post badly; would like everybody's input, not just e_dawg's. That includes LM, Tannin, etc.

2) Uda, OP is not interested in Rebel class bodies! It will be a 40D or D300. And where did I say that I wanted to spend only $650? And that I wanted only one lens? Huh?

E_D, I'd lean more towards zooms than fixed focal lengths, except perhaps for a portrait prime.

Nikon's strengths that you mentioned are certainly very attractive.

mubs, I think uda was referring to JoJo as the OP
 

Gilbo

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Is there any chance that Pentax will produce a better DSLR than the low end/consumer stuff for their good glass?
I don't know. I'm leaning towards probably not though, which is very unfortunate. The company really seems to be continuing in the tradition of the old K1000, making good value consumer/hobbiest bodies, and completely ceding the top end of the market. I guess it's worked well for them in the past. On the other hand, people like the assurance of an upgrade path. It's nice to know that if you get that big raise or "go pro" you don't have to buy all new glass.

One big indicator, in my mind, is how committed Pentax is to the APS-C sensor size. They've discontinued almost all their full-frame glass (excepting a couple high-end primes) and every new announcement is APS-C only. With the market the way it is, a full frame sensor is becoming a necessary checkmark on the feature list for the highend bodies, and I don't think Pentax is interested in going that route. Maybe the Hoya buyout will change that. Hoya certainly can go ahead and produce a lot of full-frame lense designs quite quickly I'd imagine.

If I ever had significantly more money to spend on the hobby I'd probably end up buying some Canon or Nikon gear, because with Pentax --and it is a shame-- you just can't buy a really top-end body even if you wanted to. Of course, they put a lot of stuff (like weather proofing) in their bodies that competitors reserve as differentiators for their top-end models. If I did ever want (I mean afford --obviously I want) something like a Canon 1-series though, I think I'd keep the Pentax stuff around as a second body for when I wanted to use the weird glass that no one else bothers with and when weight is a concern (like on serious camping trips).
Is there any chance that Gilbo will learn how to spell lens one day? It's L E N S repeat L E N S. This is not optional, variant, or up to the human, there is only one way to spell lens, and that is without an "e" on the end. It's driving me barmy!

You are right, Tea. I probably should read Gilbo's posts in this thread, but every time I try I get distracted by that weirdo illiterate spelling fetish of his, and find it difficult to go on.
My excuse is that I live in Canada ;)... I swear it's a legitimate, alternative spelling. Just like colour. It does seem to annoy some people though, and it also seems Canadians are the worst offenders. The second link only has Canadian defenders for the minority spelling (pulling the old "colour" excuse too ;) ), and the first references "oo" "loosers" which must be an allusion to the Canadian accent (clever actually...). (I also like "it's only a lense if you buy it in a shoppe.")

It does seem to be a very minority spelling now that I look into it. I might have to consider compromising this one; it's not like color (<--bizarre!).
Gilbo. Where have you been?
I got a job offer on very short notice in Ottawa that I couldn't refuse. I had to pick up my whole life and be in Ottawa with three weeks warning. The hours are a little crazy and the workload has been monstrous, so combined with moving I pretty much have had no life for a while. Now that I have time for a life, I am posting on SF again... (Hmmm. That last sentence... it seems odd somehow ;) Oh well, that's the truth.).

I'm still quite buried, but things will ease off in the New Year.
 

e_dawg

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The trend among the lense manufacturers is to assume that people who care about the quality of a lense don't want a slow normal zoom, so the big boys don't make them. In fact there's a general trend among the big guys to assume that everyone who wants quality also wants speed and somehow doesn't care about the size or weight that the need for speed imposes. A 21mm f/3.2 doesn't sound very special until you see how small and light it is. The same is true for 40mm f/2.8 or a 70mm f/2.4, but all three of those lenses will fit in your pocket. Collectively they take up less space than most manufacturers kit lenses!

Pentax understands that compactness, lightweight and high-quality are very important to some people (obviously speed has to be sacrificed to build lenses like these), hence the pancake primes --hence the 16-45mm f/4. You don't feel silly as a Pentax user owning a 16-45mm f/4 and the 16-50mm f/2.8 DA* because sometimes you don't need the speed of the latter and you really don't want the size and the weight. Normally stepping down to the 1st-party, slow, normal zoom would result in a serious drop in quality, but not so in this case. It's nice.

That's a very good point, Gilbo, and that's why I've decided to try Olympus' 4/3 system -- quality optics without the size and weight. Well, not quite Pentax mini lens territory especially with their primes, but they do a decent job with the zooms. Canon has some high quality f/4 stuff too. Nikon, sadly, offers the least of all the manufacturers. But like Pentax, shame about the Olympus bodies, although the 4/3 sensor is a little more limited than Pentax's APS-C sensors just by virtue of the smaller photosites.

Unfortunately, as mubs stated in the other thread, there's no "perfect" system... you just select the compromises you're willing to live with and go from there. At this point, I'm turning to two systems to get what I need...
 
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