Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Anyone use AC97 audio on a gaming machine? Anyone have a rough idea how hard it hits the CPU?
Just trying to help a customer...
Just trying to help a customer...
Exactly how much does AC97 suck?
- Thread starter Mercutio
- Start date
CougTek
Hairy Aussie
If it's through the Realtek ALC650, then it's perfectly ok for gaming IMO (except for 3D positioning). That's what I use on most of the computers I sell and I 've never had complains about the sound quality. Computer speakers generally are the lowest quality part of the audio system. It doesn't matter if you use either the AC'97 or a Sound Blaster Audigy 2 if you hung them to sub-50$ speakers.
AC'97 implementations vary though. Some are better than others. In general, for a >1.5GHz processor, the CPU % is less than 10% IIRC. No big deal.
AC'97 implementations vary though. Some are better than others. In general, for a >1.5GHz processor, the CPU % is less than 10% IIRC. No big deal.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
My customer has a machine I sold about three months ago. XP1800 on a GA-7RX. 512MB DDR. RealTek AC97. Radeon 8500 (I integrated this machine around his "old" graphics card). A pretty nice machine.
I happened to see if today at the local mega-bookstore. Asked him how he liked his new PC... and I got hit with an array of complaints about how audio skips in such-and-such game (Medal of Honor is the only one I remember). CD audio skips. EVERYTHING skips.
I told him I'd look into it.
Only thing I can think of, though, is that AC97 isn't good enough for his needs. Hence the question.
I happened to see if today at the local mega-bookstore. Asked him how he liked his new PC... and I got hit with an array of complaints about how audio skips in such-and-such game (Medal of Honor is the only one I remember). CD audio skips. EVERYTHING skips.
I told him I'd look into it.
Only thing I can think of, though, is that AC97 isn't good enough for his needs. Hence the question.
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
Not that I'm against ATI, but it just sparked my curiosity that I have a customer with a Radeon 7000 and has the same problem. All of my other customers get a GeForce something or other from me and never have audio issues. Do you think there is an ATI driver issue? -- This is just wild speculation. I'll be seeing this system soon and might give that idea a test.
CougTek
Hairy Aussie
Recent systems I built using a Radeon 8500 and the Realtek ALC650 found on the GigaByte GA-7VAX don't have any skipping sound problems. However, one of my older computer systems, a Thunderbird 1.4GHz on an ECS K7S5A and an ATI Radeon 7500, had the problem you described. My Athlon 500MHz on the Asus K7M doesn't have skipping audio while using the onboard AC'97. That's why I wrote that the quality of the AC'97 implementation varies.
Making a wild guess, you could try to update its CATALYST driver up to version 2.5 (the CATALYST 3.0 requires DirectX 9.0, which I'm still not too confident about), just in case it's a graphic driver related problem.
Making a wild guess, you could try to update its CATALYST driver up to version 2.5 (the CATALYST 3.0 requires DirectX 9.0, which I'm still not too confident about), just in case it's a graphic driver related problem.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Catalyst 3/DX9 is bad news. I upgraded my vidcap machine to it and ever since then I've gotten hard locks within a couple of minutes of starting a capture. That machine is getting ghosted back to older drivers this weekend.
blakerwry
Storage? I am Storage!
my AC'97 in Tux racer works well.... i once got to ~100FPS, using my TNT2 m64 I believe....
Other than that, you could get something simple like a C media based board for sub $30. Or go all out with a TBSC or hercules board.
Just a side note, the Nforce2 audio uses considerably less CPU usage than any other audio solution I've seen. If I recall the stats, I think I saw the SB live using 5-10 times more CPU usage in a recent 3D game. Kudos to nvidia.
Other than that, you could get something simple like a C media based board for sub $30. Or go all out with a TBSC or hercules board.
Just a side note, the Nforce2 audio uses considerably less CPU usage than any other audio solution I've seen. If I recall the stats, I think I saw the SB live using 5-10 times more CPU usage in a recent 3D game. Kudos to nvidia.
I just picked up one of these Gigabytes for a friend, very nice board at a good price, though its manual (didn't read it, promise!) needs someone to write it properly once and for all.
Once the 1200JB arrives I'll be installing Windows and seeing how the onboard audio goes - its not much of an issue either way as the guy I'm making it for is a musician and will no doubt be adding his horrendously expensive professional card to it and disabling the onboard rubbish :roll:
I'll let you know if it stutters or anything.
Once the 1200JB arrives I'll be installing Windows and seeing how the onboard audio goes - its not much of an issue either way as the guy I'm making it for is a musician and will no doubt be adding his horrendously expensive professional card to it and disabling the onboard rubbish :roll:
I'll let you know if it stutters or anything.
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
CougTek said:
Indeed. My first speculation with the board I have in question was that it uses an ALI chipset and their implementation of the sound controller might not be the best. I just might move them over to a Gigabyte GA-7DXE.
Buck
Storage? I am Storage!
Thanks for the link CityK
As Coug mentioned...I think it depends upon the implementation. My nForce2 system uses AC97 for the interface but I believe the signal processing is handled by the nForce2 chipset without loading down the system CPU....
I using AC97 on my dad's Athlon 700 (Epox 7KXA+) and it seems to work great.
C
I using AC97 on my dad's Athlon 700 (Epox 7KXA+) and it seems to work great.
C
Groltz
My demeaning user rank is
Clocker said:
An interesting comparison of the nForce2 built in sound versus the CL Audigy2 can be read here:
http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/audigy2_versus_nforce2/default.asp
Prof.Wizard
Wannabe Storage Freak
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2002
- Messages
- 1,460
AC'97 is good for your pocket, bad if you want real sound...
Bozo
Storage? I am Storage!
How bad does on board audio suck??? IMHO it could suck a golf ball through a garden hose (ie:real bad)
Bozo
Bozo
Sound...
AFAIK, the RealTek ALC650 is an audio CODEC (coder/decoder) it doesn't actually produce the sound. The nForce2 MPU is the Digital Signal Processor (DSP) which handles all the grunt work. The CODEC turns the stream from digital into analog.
AC '97 is a software implementation of the DSP work, ie the host CPU does the grunt.
As it is a S/W implementation, I'd get the latest WHQL AC 97 drivers first, and then the very latest from the VIA web site. If that doesn't work, I'd reset the BIOS to defaults (and get the latest for the mobo) in case someone has been playing with the PCI latency timers (another cause of the skipping). Get the latest BIOS.
I'd try resetting the IRQ defaults (forget the exact BIOS terminology) as well (force the BIOS to reassign IRQ's - don't make it manual though), though this would cause all devices to be redetected by Windows). Before this, I would get the latest BIOS for the video card and latest drivers for it, and make sure that there are no DMA conflicts, and that the HDD is using DMA mode.
Some good reading here
http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/2002q2/soundcards/index.x?pg=1
&
http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/2003q1/soundcards/index.x?pg=1
AFAIK, the RealTek ALC650 is an audio CODEC (coder/decoder) it doesn't actually produce the sound. The nForce2 MPU is the Digital Signal Processor (DSP) which handles all the grunt work. The CODEC turns the stream from digital into analog.
AC '97 is a software implementation of the DSP work, ie the host CPU does the grunt.
As it is a S/W implementation, I'd get the latest WHQL AC 97 drivers first, and then the very latest from the VIA web site. If that doesn't work, I'd reset the BIOS to defaults (and get the latest for the mobo) in case someone has been playing with the PCI latency timers (another cause of the skipping). Get the latest BIOS.
I'd try resetting the IRQ defaults (forget the exact BIOS terminology) as well (force the BIOS to reassign IRQ's - don't make it manual though), though this would cause all devices to be redetected by Windows). Before this, I would get the latest BIOS for the video card and latest drivers for it, and make sure that there are no DMA conflicts, and that the HDD is using DMA mode.
Some good reading here
http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/2002q2/soundcards/index.x?pg=1
&
http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/2003q1/soundcards/index.x?pg=1
Forgot to say that I use AC 97 sound on my 8K7A+ and 8KHA+ with no problems. Only have cheap speakers so I can't see the point.
The games I mainly play are Civ III, MoM (in a DOS box under Win 98), MOO2, Panzer General 2 and sometimes Unreal. Haven't experienced any problems so far. I certainly had a problem with the Live! and MoM, crackling, distorted sound on the 8KHA+, so I ditched the Live!
The games I mainly play are Civ III, MoM (in a DOS box under Win 98), MOO2, Panzer General 2 and sometimes Unreal. Haven't experienced any problems so far. I certainly had a problem with the Live! and MoM, crackling, distorted sound on the 8KHA+, so I ditched the Live!
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Master of Magic? Someone else plays Master of Magic? What a great game. We'll have to start a strategy thread. IMO the best thing for your DOS gaming needs is an AWE64. It came in ISA and PCI versions, and it was really just about the last Creative card to have non-fuxored DOS drivers.
My solution to the AC97 dilemna my customer had ended up being a $6 CMI-chipset sound card. He disabled onboard sound and used the card, and his problem went away.
I don't like fixing problems that way, but a $6 card was cheaper for both of us than the time invested in troubleshooting. :|
My solution to the AC97 dilemna my customer had ended up being a $6 CMI-chipset sound card. He disabled onboard sound and used the card, and his problem went away.
I don't like fixing problems that way, but a $6 card was cheaper for both of us than the time invested in troubleshooting. :|
MoM? - yep. Strategy - high-elven longbowmen. Find the nearest source of Mithril or Adamantium and research Metal Fires and Eldritch Weapon by hook or crook. I had an AWE32 (full length ISA) and I still miss it. the only add-on sound I use now is my old Aureal 1 Xitel Storm VX. Damn Creative and their 30MB "driver" downloads...
The CMedia chipset isn't that bad. My wife's KA266 has the chip on-board and the sound is OK.
The CMedia chipset isn't that bad. My wife's KA266 has the chip on-board and the sound is OK.
Mercutio
Fatwah on Western Digital
Couple of my favorite MoM strategies:
1. Always play using the Jafar portrait. I $#%-ing hate Jafar.
2. Lots of White + Halfling + Warlord - slingers are nasty to start out with, but altar of battle or Call to Arms and they come out as champion units. Add Lionheart and they're shooting down sky drakes on one hit.
3. "Quest for Champions" - take no books, at all, but lots of retorts. Summon Champion, an arcane spell, will usually be available as a starting research pick... this strategy relies on having units that can handle themselves in a fight, so good hearts and fast expansion (Barbarians!) are good here. Get a champion and use go to work on Create Artifact... if you've played right you'll have a decent base of cities by mid-game and one or two pretty strong heroes that can clean nodes and kill your more annoying opponents. Node-busting gets you books, gold and tons of mana (more items and heroes!).
4. "Night of the living dead" - Trolls + Berserk + Zombie Mastery. Lots of black, maybe a red book to pick up enhancers (chaos channels, eldrith weapon). Berserk Trolls roll over any normal unit, and since they regenerate, they come back instead of dying after combat. Zombie Mastery gives you an insta-garrison, and lots of utterly expendable peons to worry nearby opponents. You fight a war of attrition, and grind your opponents to dust.
5. Flying Paladins - obnoxious on general principle (first strike, magic-immune), but REALLY bad if you've got enough mana to maintain several enchantments in addition to flight.
Green is the only color I have a hard time winning with. Solid green doesn't have many good offensive spells at all, and I usually shy away from summon spells (sprites are obnoxious early on, though).
I play on Impossible, 4 opponents, huge landmass. Usually one game a week.
1. Always play using the Jafar portrait. I $#%-ing hate Jafar.
2. Lots of White + Halfling + Warlord - slingers are nasty to start out with, but altar of battle or Call to Arms and they come out as champion units. Add Lionheart and they're shooting down sky drakes on one hit.
3. "Quest for Champions" - take no books, at all, but lots of retorts. Summon Champion, an arcane spell, will usually be available as a starting research pick... this strategy relies on having units that can handle themselves in a fight, so good hearts and fast expansion (Barbarians!) are good here. Get a champion and use go to work on Create Artifact... if you've played right you'll have a decent base of cities by mid-game and one or two pretty strong heroes that can clean nodes and kill your more annoying opponents. Node-busting gets you books, gold and tons of mana (more items and heroes!).
4. "Night of the living dead" - Trolls + Berserk + Zombie Mastery. Lots of black, maybe a red book to pick up enhancers (chaos channels, eldrith weapon). Berserk Trolls roll over any normal unit, and since they regenerate, they come back instead of dying after combat. Zombie Mastery gives you an insta-garrison, and lots of utterly expendable peons to worry nearby opponents. You fight a war of attrition, and grind your opponents to dust.
5. Flying Paladins - obnoxious on general principle (first strike, magic-immune), but REALLY bad if you've got enough mana to maintain several enchantments in addition to flight.
Green is the only color I have a hard time winning with. Solid green doesn't have many good offensive spells at all, and I usually shy away from summon spells (sprites are obnoxious early on, though).
I play on Impossible, 4 opponents, huge landmass. Usually one game a week.
Yeah Jafar's a bitch. Forgot to mention Warlord & Node Mastery. The only problem with my strategy is if someone rumbles me early. I also go for a balance, evens in White, Red and Green (I'm after Transmute, Earth to Mud, Web, Earth Lore, Giant Strength and Change Terrain) and a little Blue. I might try your halfling strategy.
Bloody Ariel is giving me a hard time in the current game with invulnerable slingers, flying + Eldtritch Weapon + Guardian Wind, though I just got some Hammerhands
Bloody Ariel is giving me a hard time in the current game with invulnerable slingers, flying + Eldtritch Weapon + Guardian Wind, though I just got some Hammerhands