fanless computer design

[blakerwry]

150/170Watt fanless PSU with 85% efficiency typical and upto 97%! totally fanless(watercooled) system with side sinks on the case.

http://www.whisperpc.co.uk/default.htm

Reviews:
http://www.whisperpc.co.uk/reviews/inquirer.pdf
http://www.whisperpc.co.uk/reviews/ct_signum_engl.pdf

 

[Jan Kivar]

Hush Technologies has pretty much same idea, the only differences are that Hush's creation supports only VIA EPIA/EDEN motherboards (or other future Mini-ITX boards), and uses heat pipes to ensure silent operation. I can't really tell from the pictures of Whisper PC, but I think that it has a pump (=traditional water cooling instead of heat pipes), so there's a "weak link" in the system. Otherwise the two systems are similiar.

I wonder why silent computer has to be small also? Why can't they use "normal" cases?

Cheers,

Jan

 

[blakerwry]

One thing I liked about the design is that it used the case as a heatsink to exhaust excess heat... have you seen the fanless PSU's... they have a heatsink on the exterior of the case (mounted where the PSU fan would normally be located)

I think it's JTR who keeps mentioning that he would like to see the case used as a heatsink... it's a good idea anyway, and I'm glad to see some people making it a reality.

It's true that most of these silent computers are using small cases, I suppose you could buy one of the integrated VIA systems.. or even a socket 370 and seperate C3 and put it in a normal mini or full atx... trouble is that you have to do your own research and be willing to make a few mistakes if you want to build your own custom box.

just think... fanless PSU... undervolted underclocked tualatin pIII.. Seagate ATA IV... ATi AIW 8500DV... if you used a heat pipe on the hard drive and CPU it would be impressive.. hopefully you wouldn't have to use more than a single slow moving fan.

 

[Jan Kivar]

The problem with heat pipes is that they need some heat to work. The phase change starts bit over 30 degrees Celsius, but at a lower (less than maximum) effiency. I think the optimum temperature is near (or even over) 40 degrees, and the effiency gets better as the temperature increases up to a certain point.

Using case as a heat sink is a good idea in general. But if You connect a case to the processor, You'll cause tension to the core of the processor (or to the socket or the motherboard), because all cases are bit, how should I say it, bent or "less than perfect rectangulars". Smaller cases are better, as the torgue/tension is smaller in a smaller case.

Most regular cases don't have appropriate standoffs to accommodate a Mini-ITX (or Flex-ATX) board, mATX boards have better "support". Usually there is one or more standoff misaligned, so the mount could still be done using only some of the standoffs.

I'd use water cooling in my "dream box"...

Cheers,

Jan

 

[Jan Kivar]

This PS could be very quiet... I'd buy one if the price is something like $70-80 (or Euro).

Jan

 

[CityK]

Jan, there's a few pictures of that PSU here.... P.S. don't bother reading the article, cause it contains erronous information...which is hardly surprising considering the type of site....anyways, just look at the pretty pictures.

Perhaps you can just get one cheaper straight from FSP ... cutting out the middleman (AOpen).

CK

 

[Jan Kivar]

True, a bit of googlin' told me that this is actually a Fortron/Sparkle PSU, and XP Direct has the 350W model $45+s/h, and NewEgg has the 300W for as low as $32 including shipping.

Too bad I live in Europe...

Jan

 

[Jan Kivar]

Jan, there's a few pictures of that PSU here.... P.S. don't bother reading the article, cause it contains erronous information...which is hardly surprising considering the type of site....anyways, just look at the pretty pictures.

CK

BTW, what do You consider "erronous"?

Jan

 

[CityK]

The FSP350-60PN isn't exactly a heavy duty PSU, but 350w of power is usually enough to power a basic PC.

- Why isn't it beefy? Cause it doesn't say Enermax 650W on it?
- Usually need 350W for a basic PC !! Whatever.
- Obviously subscribes to the "Wattage" school of thought, and does not demonstrate an understanding of the important aspects of system power requirements

Speaking of AMD, there are special power requirements for Athlon processors, and this PSU adheres to AMD specs as well

- And he spells them out so clearly. Please, pray tell, what are these specifics and how would they relate to the PSU?

Testing power supplies has got to be my least favorite computer component to test. You can't overclock it, you can't really mod it and you can't benchmark it.

- Umm, I guess I just have a different understanding of the word benchmark....

So with such a basic component, it really comes down to a few basic tests.

- And undoubtedly, only the most scientific will be only employed....

The first thing I want to look at is the 5v power rail and we can monitor it from the system's bios. The 5v power rail is AMD's biggest concern for the Athlon CPU. If the PSU does not supply a constant 5v, the system will not function properly.

- That's just great, but Athlon's should be drawing their power exclusively from the 12V rail. Thanks for coming out.
- Monitoring something from the bios, MBM etc is more of an indication of the quality of a motherboards electrical design ie. whats actually being delivered to the components on the board, as opposed to what's coming out of the PSU connectors. Second, the accuracy of the sensor (which reports these hardware monitoring functions to the BIOS etc) is dependant upon the calibration of software algorithms.

I'm happy to report that this PSU holds strong at 4.97v. It's not exactly 5v, but it holds the same as our high end PSUs like the Vantec Stealth.

- He found it noteworthy to report that his ultra scientific testing methods observed a deviation of 0.6% off the point of reference....(which is also known as a benchmark, but not that he'd know that)
- Vantec is a high end power supply? w00t w00t! It costs a lot, it has 28 fans, ergo, it must be a high end power supply! Of course, why didn't I think of that?

Another thing I like to check for is power drains at 100% CPU usage. A cheap power supply will actually bog down when the CPU is at 100% causing power fluctuations that can even be heard in the system fans. Again, the Fortron/Source PSU held strong while being monitored with MBM.

- Power drains at 100%, bogging down ?? Dude, you really should stop buying PSU's which provide only 5 Amps on the 12V rail
- MBM (nothing wrong with this program, but I have already discussed the practicality of using it as a PSU benchmark)

One of my big concerns was noise when using a 120mm cooling fan. Normally, 120mm fans are quite loud,

- Did he just say 120mm fans are loud? Cause I thought I heard him say 120mm fans are quite loud....I must be hearing things. I guess that's what happens after you've been using those extra quiet 80mm fans for so long.

The Fortron/Source FSP350-60PN isn't as pretty as those expensive anodized PSUs...

- No neon lights! Dude this PSU is fugly. There's no way in hell I'd put that in my Pimp rig!

...and it is not the strongest PSU money can buy

- Ah, back to that Wattage=Good, Expensive=Good ideaology are we?

, but it does the trick and delivers solid performance.

- Yeah, and probably does so a lot better then the Vantec and other "premium" brands that he covets

This PSU has exceptional cooling and provides strong and constant power to our nForce2 motherboard.

- Claims which he doesn't really know for sure seeing he didn't actually test the PSU

The FSP350-60PN is also a fraction of the price compared to other aftermarket power supplies, which makes it a bargain for system builders or those in need of an inexpensive PSU replacement.

- So what your saying is that this supply is only good for system builders and budget minded individuals? .... Oh, I get it! I'm an OC'er and I shouldn't be caught dead with this low cost, under-Watted unit. What I need is the Megapower 750W! Yes, only after I have parted with my 200 dollars can I rest assured that my system is up to par.

------------

BTW Jan, FSP is available in Europe (in UK for sure - they have a web page). You should call/email them to see if they have a distributer in _____. (sorry, I can't remember if you live in Holland or Belgium offhand).

Cheers, CK

 

[Jan Kivar]

NOTE: I'm not defending here:

Speaking of AMD, there are special power requirements for Athlon processors, and this PSU adheres to AMD specs as well

- And he spells them out so clearly. Please, pray tell, what are these specifics and how would they relate to the PSU?

AMD has a list of the "recommended" products. Fortron is on the list.

Another thing I like to check for is power drains at 100% CPU usage. A cheap power supply will actually bog down when the CPU is at 100% causing power fluctuations that can even be heard in the system fans. Again, the Fortron/Source PSU held strong while being monitored with MBM.

- Power drains at 100%, bogging down ?? Dude, you really should stop buying PSU's which provide only 5 Amps on the 12V rail
- MBM (nothing wrong with this program, but I have already discussed the practicality of using it as a PSU benchmark)

Actually my Enermax has the same power fluctuations. I use vCool, and every time processor is not idle the fan(s) do throttle up, at least the one attached to the motherboard. I haven't investigated further, but I think that only the fans attached to the motherboard throttle, as the loads are quite big when processor enters the running state. So, I'm not sure whether it is the PS or the MB.

One of my big concerns was noise when using a 120mm cooling fan. Normally, 120mm fans are quite loud,

- Did he just say 120mm fans are loud? Cause I thought I heard him say 120mm fans are quite loud....I must be hearing things. I guess that's what happens after you've been using those extra quiet 80mm fans for so long.

OCers run high speed Deltas, and tend to think that bigger is louder.

The Fortron/Source FSP350-60PN isn't as pretty as those expensive anodized PSUs...

- No neon lights! Dude this PSU is fugly. There's no way in hell I'd put that in my Pimp rig!

...and it is not the strongest PSU money can buy

- Ah, back to that Wattage=Good, Expensive=Good ideaology are we?

Actually, there is CeBit info in Tom's HWG where Fortron introduced the Aurora model that has blue leds...

The FSP350-60PN is also a fraction of the price compared to other aftermarket power supplies, which makes it a bargain for system builders or those in need of an inexpensive PSU replacement.

- So what your saying is that this supply is only good for system builders and budget minded individuals? .... Oh, I get it! I'm an OC'er and I shouldn't be caught dead with this low cost, under-Watted unit. What I need is the Megapower 750W! Yes, only after I have parted with my 200 dollars can I rest assured that my system is up to par.

Most ordinary people will think that if You'd change the PS from 300W to 350W, the computer would be faster...

BTW Jan, FSP is available in Europe (in UK for sure - they have a web page). You should call/email them to see if they have a distributer in _____. (sorry, I can't remember if you live in Holland or Belgium offhand).

Cheers, CK

I know I could get them in the Europe eventually. I just think that the price will be something near the 70-80 Euro, in contrast to the prices at US. And NO, I don't live in Holland or Belgium...

I guess You dug all the flaws out of it... I have "internal" filter for all that. I'm always very cynical when it comes to all stuff on the Net. All reviews are opinions of the product. If a site (doesn't have to be small one) gets something from the manufacturer to review, he/she can't really criticize it, as they'll never send You anything. Also, single reviews suck most of the time. I like comparison.

Cheers,

Jan

 

[blakerwry]

this is an interesting use of a VIA EPIA motherboard

http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/bubbacomp/

 

[CityK]

this is an interesting use of a VIA EPIA motherboard

...which probably was concieved immediately following the consumption of the beer..... PS. when getting that drunk, it is customary for one to wake up with an ugly girl in your bed, not an ugly computer on your desk.

CK

 

[Jan Kivar]

this is an interesting use of a VIA EPIA motherboard

...which probably was concieved immediately following the consumption of the beer..... PS. when getting that drunk, it is customary for one to wake up with an ugly girl in your bed, not an ugly computer on your desk.

CK

LOL

 

[Jan Kivar]

BTW, this is the newest mod:

http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/theclock/

And this is what I think is the nicest:

http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/blueplate/

(apart from the "novelty" projects... or anything that is built in the casing of other device...)

Jan

 

[Jan Kivar]

First, sorry to haul up this thread. I just wanted to comment on the price of the Fortron 350W PSU. It seems that I could get it now from an OC shop nearby. The price is 82 Euros, including VAT. I don't know about the s&h, as I usually pick up stuff directly from the shop.

XPDirect has the same PSU, price $48+s&h. I'm starting to dislike the American pricing too...

Jan

 

[NRG = mc²]

I have a Sonata (upgraded from Cheiftec Dragon) and its generally a better case.

- Drive bay system rocks. Either slide the drives cable-outwards for easy access to cables and jumpers, or put them in the other way to keep cables out of the way and this makes for a -very- tidy case without needing rounded IDE, S-ATA or other rubbish.

- Drive mounting grommets make a big difference to drive noise. Initially I thought it would only affect seek noise but I can -just about- hear my WD800JB seeking and idling whereas in the Dragon case, firmly mounted to the drive cage, the idle whine of the WD stuck out like a sore thumb as did the seeks. And this is a very silent system, I'm surprised I can't hear the drive any more.

- Included 120mm rear fan at 7v reasonably quiet. pretty much silent at 5v but not much air. Definately quieter than my 120mm Sanyo Denki or Papst fans for the same air flow (they buzz or growl at low voltages).

- Front 120mm fan is a stupid idea. Mounted on the drive bay, the fan's inlet is greatly restricted and only serves to recirculate hot air and increase noise.

- Drive grommet mounting makes drives run hotter - they get pretty toasty if you keep the side panel open but if you close it up they cool down due to the airflow coming through the front.

- Blue front LEDs double as search lights. I have hooked them up to my HDD led header and now they flicker nicely with hard drive access - useful now that the drives are near inaudible.

- Air inlet is very restricted. The airflow from the rear 120mm fan drops dramatically once you close the side panel so I'm going to cut the internal bezel out. I've already gotten rid of the filter.

- Side holes reading Antec let some sound out but unless you mod the front bezel then I wouldn't suggest covering them up - they let in quite a bit of air.

- Not the most beautiful of front bezel designs - I prefer the looks and colour of my old Cheiftec - hopefully they will extend their range of colours.

- I didn't try the included TruePower PSU but reports on silentpcreview.com claim it isn't that quiet. Probably quieter than most PSUs but nothing like the Zalman ZM300A I've got in there now.

- Will be provided preinstalled with Acoustipak Deluxe noise deadening material soon

If anyone wants photos let me know, its internal design is really clever, don't know why no one else does this.

 

[NRG = mc²]

Wrong window, wrong post

This was meant to be here:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Totally passive P4 system utilising heatpipes. Available for sale:

http://www.deltatronic.info/neu/index.html

Its all in German, but click the links and you'll see some interesting photos.

I never understood why no one makes an external passive ATX PSU - if its external then size (heatsinks) arent a problem so it should be pretty simple and cheap to build an external ATX PSU. Perhaps voltage drops over the wiring could be an issue but nothing that can't be worked around.

 

[blakerwry]

it'd be interesting to see if you can buy some of those heatpipes by themselvs (considering the dragon case is extremely popular)

 

[Jan Kivar]

I never understood why no one makes an external passive ATX PSU - if its external then size (heatsinks) arent a problem so it should be pretty simple and cheap to build an external ATX PSU. Perhaps voltage drops over the wiring could be an issue but nothing that can't be worked around.

One of the biggest problems is the number of wires inside the case. You must simplify it somehow (no point running 30+ wires outside of the case). You would need at least six wires (+12V, +5V, +3.3V, -5V, -12V and the ground wire) from the external PSU to the computer. The wires must be very thick, in order to prevent them from heating too much.

Also, when the ATX form factor was designed, the idea was to have only one fan (the one in the power supply) which would blow air to the processor (so the fan sucked air in instead of blowing it out). When the heat made by the processor increased, the fan was turned to blow out hot air from the case. Most older cases had the PSU fan as the only fan, and they didn't have any extra fan mounts (often there was place for one 60 mm or 80 mm fan in the front, with really thick grille).

Cheers,

Jan

 

[NRG = mc²]

Sure, the result won't be the prettiest or most elegant, but it can be done, and the bottom line is, us silent people are after solutions, not price or looks. This is the reason I buy 80mm Panaflo L1A for £4 in 500qty and manage to resell them for £15 each

Papst 4312 for £7.60 each and resell for £20... nearest competitor has them at £25

What I mean is that there is a market for them, even if they're ugly and offer no cooling to the case people will still buy them.. they just will :wink:

 

[The JoJo]

Antec Phatom review, very efficient fanless PS:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article188-page1.html

 

[ddrueding]

Totally passive P4 system utilising heatpipes. Available for sale:

http://www.deltatronic.info/neu/index.html

Its all in German, but click the links and you'll see some interesting photos.

I never understood why no one makes an external passive ATX PSU - if its external then size (heatsinks) arent a problem so it should be pretty simple and cheap to build an external ATX PSU. Perhaps voltage drops over the wiring could be an issue but nothing that can't be worked around.

They show a P4 being cooled by a single heatpipe connected to a steel case How would that work? The other designs I've seen involved at least 5 leading to massive aluminium heatsinks.

 

[Handruin]

I would prefer an aluminum case if I was going that route. Isn't aluminum one of the best dissipater's of heat (copper being the better conductor). I don't know how good steel is.

 

[ddrueding]

Man, this is making me reconsider my current heatsink. Maybe I'll just fab something similar to this?