Home Theater Speakers

[Buck]

My quest is for wireless Dolby Surround Sound speakers (5.1). Specifically for the rear left and right channels. This expedition has been very difficult. When I find companies that deal with nice audio equipment, they tell me that wireless audio has not advanced enough to provide decent sound quality, hence they are scarce.

Any recommendations on this wireless route?

If it doesn't work out, I'll just have to find some ingeneous way of hiding the wires under the carpet. The ceiling's fire-resistant capabilities cannot be compromised in any way and has been highly engineered to pass a commercial fire rating. Not to mention, the ceiling is littered with Romex cables and the fire sprinklers (which are run with PVC -- one hit on those with my drill bit, and we're history(no way to shut off water either)).

 

[Mercutio]

The classic "consumer" wireless speakers are made by Advent.

The problem with those units is that they work with a Rectocon wireless transceiver, which expects RCA stereo inputs, NOT speaker cables, which means they won't work as surround channels.

At least, not the ones I've seen.

The advents are 900MHz wireless, which in a medium-density environment like a duplex might very well be unusable. I don't know of any 2.4GHz wireless speakers.

Have you considered surface-mount cable raceways?

 

[Buck]

Have you considered surface-mount cable raceways?

Do you have any examples?

 

[Mercutio]

I usually buy Belkin. Costs me $10 for 6 6' pieces + maybe $10 more in corner pieces . They're supposed to be self-adhering. They aren't. Install with a staple gun.

 

[Mercutio]

That should be $50 for 36 feet.
Is your set-up primarily geared for movies/TV or for music, Buck? And what kind of budget for these misbegotten speakers?

 

[Buck]

Is your set-up primarily geared for movies/TV or for music, Buck? And what kind of budget for these misbegotten speakers?

Thanks for the link to Belkin.

This is primarily geared towards movies and music. Budget-wise, I could spend $250.00 on the two speakers if necessary.

 

[Mercutio]

I appreciate the sound of Dipole speakers for music, something like a Wharfedale WH-2MP.

For entry-level bookshelf-type surrounds try something like a pair of Acoustic Research AR17 (smaller) or AR15 (bigger). They should come in right at your budget and are well wirth the $150 or so a pair should cost.

 

[timwhit]

Buck,

It sounds like your budget is pretty well set at this point. I'm not sure how much experience you have with a home theater setup at this point, but I just wanted to throw out a few tips. You might already know this stuff, but it can't hurt to hear it again.

The center channel is extremely important for movies; most of the sound will come through the center. Spend a disproportionably high amount of money on this speaker. Unless you are using a lot of DVD-A sources then rear speakers are not that important. $250 sounds like a good amount of money to spend, but that is only if the other speakers cost substantially more. Your front speakers should be better than the rears, especially because you are planning on using the setup for music.

In some movies rear speakers are heard quite a bit, however in most films that are dialog heavy they play little impact. Even in movies that use the rears a lot most of it is just background noise which is not that important.

You might consider speakers that are all one brand, in order to get something that is matched and will sound good together.

When I bought my front speakers I went to a lot of local audio and home theater stores and listened to everything in my price range, then I found a pair that were used on eBay for a much better price. That way I got a pair of speakers that were actually out of my budget for a price that fit my budget. Plus, whoever owned them before me treated them very well, and I have had no problems whatsoever.

www.audiogon.com also has a lot of used audio equipment. However, most of it is pretty high-end stuff.

What components are you using for your setup at this point?

 

[i]

If it doesn't work out, I'll just have to find some ingeneous way of hiding the wires under the carpet. The ceiling's fire-resistant capabilities cannot be compromised in any way and has been highly engineered to pass a commercial fire rating. Not to mention, the ceiling is littered with Romex cables and the fire sprinklers (which are run with PVC -- one hit on those with my drill bit, and we're history(no way to shut off water either)).

How common a scenario is that? Or, put another way, where the heck do you live?

The reason I ask is because I'm wondering if I'm in roughly the same position. I'm considering my options for putting together a small home theater system. In order to get the speaker cables to the rear speakers, I either have to run them over and around the sliding doors that lead to my balcony (do-able, but a bit tacky), or find some way of running them over the ceiling.

By coincidence, there happens to be a run of RG6 video cable that goes from the exact spot where my amplifier is, to the exact spot where I'd like the cables to appear for the rear speakers. I've been pondering exactly how much success I'd have if I simply used the RG6 coax cable to pull the speaker cables (and a replacement RG6 cable) up the wall, across the ceiling above the drywall, and then down the other wall. It's about 12 feet from one wall to the other. I have almost no idea what's up there in the ceiling though ... I don't even know how they've secured the drywall to form the ceiling in this unit. This is a big (20 story) condominium complex and my knowledge of construction design for something this size is basically zero.

But technical feasability aside, I'm not sure what electrical/fire codes I might run into doing something like that. Furthermore, burning my own place down is fine, but I don't even want to think about the other possibility. Then again ... it's all low voltage. Unless it crosses something 120/240V in the ceiling. That's already exposed. And that happens to shred the new cable as I pull it across. And so on...

The best I can think of doing is using the most UL-rated speaker cable I can find. So far I've found the most promising cable at Digikey (note: PDF link). At least there's some published information about that cable. Wandering through the Radio Shack site the most "useful" information you might find about any of their speaker cable is what color it is (beyond gauge anyway).[/i]

 

[Buck]

I live in Southern California (Orange County). The condo complex I'm in is brand new (other phases are still under construction so I can see how my place went together). The ceiling is a combination of engineered lumber and steel framing. Plus, every single source of air or heat has been blocked by double layers of drywall for fire protection. The fire protection goes so far, that I dont' have bull-nose corners (round endges on the corner of a wall), because bull-nose edges are open, there is no tight drywall seam, hence no fire retardation. The place I was in was easy, all studs were on center, no insultation in the walls, very little else in the walls (except the termites) besides some electrical cable -- very easy. When I was putting crown-moulding in one room of my new place, some of the nails wouldn't make it through because they hit steel. Steel studs are easy to puncture, so I must have hit an i-beam or a steel bracket. (We have lots of brackets and straps in earthquake country).

I should've run this stuff months ago when the drywall wasn't up yet, but I wasn't in a healthy enough condition to go and work on the house at that time.

 

[i]

You're lucky. I wish I had more information about the construction here. The walls are easy - between apartments and between an apartment and the hallway, it's doubled-up 1/2" drywall sheeting, plus insulation. The studs are the standard flimsy steel variety. I'm not really certain about the ceiling. Obviously at some point it becomes the concrete of the floor above me, presumably with a blown-on fireproof coating on the underside. But I have no idea what kind of "hangers" they used to allow the drywall ceiling to stay up there. There must be some space between the drywall of my ceiling and the floor above. All the wiring in this place that has to cross to a different room goes up to the ceiling and then across that way.

I still wish I knew more about what's up there first. This could become an expensive project in more ways than one.

 

[Buck]

Talk with a proctologist, he'll get you a scope used for colonoscopies. :eekers:

 

[i]

Great idea! That'd let me see what I'm dealing with, plus I could start my own home based business and earn some extra income on the side...

Or not.

:wink:

 

[Mercutio]

In some movies rear speakers are heard quite a bit, however in most films that are dialog heavy they play little impact. Even in movies that use the rears a lot most of it is just background noise which is not that important.

Most new receivers also support Dolby Pro Logic II and Neo:6 listening modes, both of which involve the rear speakers even more than most 5.1 movie soundtracks. Depending on what you're listening to, the surround channels can either add "presence" by duping the left and right on a slight delay, or simply widening the stereo field to create a semi-discrete "surround" channel.

The effect is quite pleasing for achieving the ambience of orchestral music and action-heavy TV/movies where audio "direction" is already apparent.

You might consider speakers that are all one brand, in order to get something that is matched and will sound good together.

The term for this is "Voice Matched". It's not necessarily found within a brand, since speakers can vary a great deal from product line to product line or model year to model year.

Having voice matched speakers is very important for the channels that involve dialogue, so there isn't a radically different sound between your front speakers and your center (having a tinny center but bass-heavy fronts will make actors sound different as their voices pass from a front speaker to the center. This breaks the multichannel effect to some degree).

Your receiver should have controls to help match speakers, if you have some that are mismatched; and it's not a deal-breaker for most people, since most people are not audio snobs with nothing better to do.

We're talking about surround speakers here though, and voice matching shouldn't be THAT high on Buck's list. Personally I'd probably look at this as an opportunity to buy new fronts. Old front speakers make good surrounds.

What components are you using for your setup at this point?

We're waiting, Buck.

 

[Buck]

We're waiting, Buck.

Sorry about that, I'll get back to you with details, but I can say that all of the components so far are about 8 year old Technics stuff.

 

[timwhit]

We're waiting, Buck.

Sorry about that, I'll get back to you with details, but I can say that all of the components so far are about 8 year old Technics stuff.

In which case, the rear speakers matter little. Unless you plan on upgrading your setup soon.

 

[Buck]

Why do the rear speakers matter little?

 

[timwhit]

Well, if your receiver is eight years old, then I don't think it has Dolby Digital 5.1, which is the first technology that really took advantage of surround speakers. Pro Logic is supposed to use rear speakers, but they were mono and didn't come into play all that much in movies. Like I said before, background noise.

I would still get decent speakers because if you ever decide to upgrade your receiver to a newer model your rear speakers will do a lot more.

 

[Buck]

My system does support Pro Logic II which does derive 5 channel sound unlike regular Pro Logic. I played some new DVDs this week, like Star Trek II and Star Wars, the cheap KLH rear speakers worked fabulously. I can increase there sound separately from the front left/right and center.

 

[Mercutio]

$250 buys quite a lot of receiver these days. Something like an Onkyo TX-SR501 or 601 is probably right in that ballpark and a fabulous buy.

Put off your surrounds and spend some cash on an upgraded center. Video switching alone will make that purchase worthwhile.

 

[Mercutio]

Whoops. Just ignore me. If you're doing DPL2, your receiver must only be a 2 - 3 years old and is not in need of upgrade.

 

[Pradeep]

Good thing you don't have DTS-ES or DD EX Buck, or you would be wondering where to install the center rear speaker

 

[ddrueding]

Good thing you don't have DTS-ES or DD EX Buck, or you would be wondering where to install the center rear speaker

Yes, in anticipation of the upcoming 12.4 standard, I'm just lining the walls with speakers and creating an array of subs bolted under the floor.

 

[Buck]

No kidding. Having 6 speakers presently is "cool" but finding room to place them is a pain (I wouldn't want more). At least everything on the back of my components is nicely marked so I don't need the manuals to figure out my connections. Even the special sychronization of connectors between my dual-cassette deck, equalizer and receiver was easy.

Probably contrary to some peoples taste (as I mentioned before) my rear surround and center are KLH speakers, and my active sub-woofer is Advent. The front left and right are bookshelf speakers from an older Magnavox system (I think I bought that in 1987). Anyway, I have also been thinking about replacing the front left/right speakers with some nice, tall, slender floor models. Remember, I live in an attached house, so I can't crank the volume up to much.

 

[Mercutio]

Yes, in anticipation of the upcoming 12.4 standard, I'm just lining the walls with speakers and creating an array of subs bolted under the floor.

My brother's theater includes 10 subwoofers and at least 15 speakers; that's EXACTLY what he did(*). My main receiver could do 7.1 without problem and a slightly higher-end Carver Sunfire (drool) can process 9.2 with an extra amplifier. The bass signal is mono, so it's really easy to split it to multiple subs.

Just because your receiver supports extra speakers doesn't mean you need to use them. Two Towers EE is the only DVD title I know of that supports 7.1. Even reference quality superbit DVDs only do 5.1...


(*) My brother's theater cost more than my house.

 

[Pradeep]

I don't think there is any DVD that has 7.1. There is no consumer spec for it. Best would be DTS-ES with discrete surround back. The extended version of FOTR and Two Towers has it, along with T2:Extreme/Ultimate ed, and a few others. Many receivers do allow you to hook up two speakers for the rear surround channel, but it is still mono.

Right now I'm working my way thru the Alien Quadrilogy, 9 discs of Alien glory!

 

[Buck]

Okay, I now have some updated information that should help clear things up. First of all, as far as I can tell, I was wrong, the receiver/amplifier seems to be just Dolby Pro Logic Surround. Here are the components that I have:

Receiver/Amplifier: Technics SA-GX690P-K
Disc Changer: SL-PD887
Cassette Deck: RS-TR575P-K
Equalizer: SH-GE70PP-K

These are the model numbers directly from the components (the date silk-screened on the back of the receiver is November 1995), however, searching for those exact numbers doesn't always lead to information on the world wide web. For example, it is best to search for SA-GX690 when looking up information about the receiver.

Either way, I don't plan on updating these components. They all work very well, and provide more sound then I can handle in a 14 x 14 foot living room. Not to mention a lot more sound then my neighbors can handle. I have never turned the volume passed half on this thing, it just gets to loud. In my hold house, the studs in the wall would audibly vibrate from the bass.

 

[Santilli]

If your reciever is adjustable, for volume on each channel, I've found Klipsch to be the most efficent speaker, requiring the least amps for sound.

Their only weakness is they do tend to be rock and roll speakers, requiring fair volume to really get good sound quality.

My system resembles all the above remarks, with a strong center K speaker, and Heresey's for front speakers, a 10 inch sub, and, a couple nice, strong, back speakers.


Best thing to do is go to a place that carries them, and listen. Always sells me.

gs

 

[timwhit]

I hate Klipsch, horns are for megaphones not precision home theater equipment. Evertime I have been to a dealer that sells Klipsch they always push them as being the most efficient. Who cares though, I'm not trying to fill a stadium with sound. I want something that is accurate and doesn't hurt my ears.

Buck, whatever you do please don't buy Klipsch.

 

[Mercutio]

I'll second that.

In the realm of computer speakers, Logitech continues to impress. I got a set of Z680s today and they're magnificent. A set of Acoustic Research HC5s + a low-end receiver is still a cheaper and better option, but if you're dead set against having a receiver hooked up to your PC, the Z680s are the best choice I'm aware of.

 

[Santilli]

I have a set of Klipsch, the first computer speakers they made, and, with a proper sound card, and sound editing, they will pretty much do anything you want.

Klipsch still makes the Hereseys, and, along with a 10 inch thumper, and a decent center, plus 300 dollar back speakers, all from Klipsch, it simply rocks, or, better yet, plays movies beautifully.

Klipsch horns are 2500 dollars, for a pair when I looked at them in 79 or so, and I think that's for one, now.

Nothing wrong with a set of Klipsch horns. They are VERY efficent.
You can drive them effectively off a boom box. Great if you are a pro DJ, and don't want to lug huge amps around.

However, if you really want good sound quality, a very high quality amp/tuner is required. I have a 500 watt, 5 channel, amp from Yamaha, that, if turned to slightly more then 1/4, delivers very high quality,
deafening sound. That's with Hereseys, a nice balance, not super expensive speaker.

I'd suggest going to www.klipsch.com and read up in the forum on the different combinations.

When I bought mine, the sub woofer I bought was cheap, but very powerful, real clean, and, with a good amp, doesn't distort.

I bought the first release of Klipsch surround speakers, in 5.1, IIRC, and, with a Philips PSC 706 I use it for viewing of DVD's on my computer.

They are accurate, and just fine for DVD's, with huge sound, without
blowing the walls out, which is what happens if I crank the living room set.

I can't turn my 10 inch sub on unless I know my neighbors are not home, in the living room.

I do have a tendency to turn the sub down a bit on the computer speakers.

Again, Klipsch are best listened too. Klipsch, JBL's, Bose, etc. are much like trying to pick the best first growth bordeaux: it becomes a matter of personal taste.

Keep in mind I don't hear real well. The combined effects of nearly 4 decades of concerts, firing high power handguns, and rifles, tanks, machine guns, etc. and bone growths in my ears closing the channels part way, have deprived me of a bit of my hearing.

Being a basketball ref, this can be viewed as a blessing as well as a curse.

gs

 

[Santilli]

By the way, I agree with the guys that the Klipsch horns are not all that.

My pick was the Hereseys over the horns, and, if I had had a LOT bigger house, the La Scalas.

NOW THOSE ARE SPEAKERS TO DIE FOR...

S

 

[Mercutio]

Every Klipsch set I've heard has been boomy and bottom heavy. That's probably great if you listen to boomy, bass heavy popular music but let's just say Klipsch doesn't do a soft classical piece any favors.
I'd call the Klipsch approach to speaker-building flawed at best.

Sound is subjective, of course, but a reasonable analogy might be that the Klisch speakers I've heard remind me of a big, heavy club - no subtlety at all, while the KEF set I use in my living room is a lot like a katana - very elegant and graceful for all its power.

 

[Santilli]

You can, and I do, tune my klipsch speakers to play well whatever the music is.
Mozart 427 is simply fantastic. However, keep in mind the Yamaha amp has different sound settings that allow you to go from a rock concert, to a concert hall, to a 70mm spectacular, without having to tune much of anything. Take the music, click on the different settings, and you can get an excellent sounding combination that maximizes the type of music you are listening to.

The computer speakers remind me of having 4 Bose speakers and a thumper, on my machine.

The Hereseys don't provide the base the horns, and La Scalas did, being, and are, more of a mid-range speaker set, designed for good reproduction, and really shining with a subwoofer added.

The horns tended to focus on highs, and lows. The LaScalas filled the entire range, with what we call subwoofers now, and mid and high speakers, as well.

Hereseys two speakers. A midrange, and a tweeter, that, when coupled with a good sub, is simply fantastic.


By the way, my amp gives a sustained 80-90 watts per channel, and 100 is considered max for the Klipsch speaker line, accross the board.
That is the Heresey, Horn, and LaScala line.

Klipsch also makes speakers that remind me of Logitech, or more pure speakers, with a bunch of smaller speakers, in towers, that effectively fill the entire range, starting at slightly above sub, and going to tweeter.

These speakers are very well balanced, and a bit truer then the old rock and roll speaker designs, and take more power.

What I'm trying to say is Klipsch has a line that works for everyone.

gs

 

[Santilli]

Tonight I've been watching JLO videos, on my computer, with crystal clear picture, and, at half volume, the 5 speaker klipsch setup really rocks.

I could easily tune the same speakers to do Mozart.

gs

 

[Santilli]

You can't beat this deal with a stick:

http://store.klipsch.com/details.asp?prodID=35

gs

 

[Buck]

Although still not organized into a nice media niche, this weekend a friend and I watched Star Trek IV on DVD through my surround sound system, and the sound was beautiful. This, of course, is still with my original setup as mentioned above. Prior to this, I watched a few clips of Star Wars, the Phantom Menace, and the pod race sound fantastic with the surround sound. Listening to those things fly be was just like in the theater (well, as close as I can get).

 

[Pradeep]

Buck you definitely need to upgrade your receiver to DD/DTS to get the full effect of the pod race. I couldn't believe the switch from plain DPL to the stereo surrounds of DD/DTS. Of course your neighbours would prob try and put your head on a stake!

Just watched Two Towers extended edition in DTS-ES yesterday, awesome sound, better than the first movie.

The Klipsch high efficiency speakers would work well with low power valve amps. I would love nothing more than a pair (or 7) of Heresys, with a perforated screen and the center firing thru it. Insane power, without massive wattage input. I believe a lot of real cinema systems do/did use horns for the higher frequencies, it gives a real presence to the sound.

 

[Handruin]

After reading all these audio threads, I spent some time the other day playing with my audio setup. I was trying to adjust the volume for each speaker and I was having a blast watching the intro to toy story 2....I think it has some great sound.

 

[blakerwry]

is that with a shuttle taking off? iirc that scene blew many a speakers in movie theaters nation wide. We had a few blown speakers in some of our theaters... those THX certified speakers aint cheap either.