I've changed my mind : I'm for carrying guns...

Pradeep

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CougTek said:
[ Weapons for the civilians are forbidden or restricted a lot more than in the U.S. in most european countries as well as in Québec and our amount of violent crimes is an order of magnitude lower than in the States. Wake up. It's not the gun that makes the man.

Coug would you care to explain the situtation in Switzerland? Millions of guns in the hands of citizens, and crime rates are pretty low. In fact many men of military age have army issued select fire rifles in their houses/apartments. Perhaps compulsory military service and an emphasis on personal responsibility have something to do with it?

A gun is a tool. A machine made of metal and wood. Nothing mysterious. It requires an operator. No wonderous power attached (except for those who claim they are "evil")
 

Santilli

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This is so, SO retarded, full of shit and stereotyped on the popular image of the arrogant and lout American bloke that I'm not even sure it deserves an answer.

I agree it's retarded, but, it's also true. The people with the guns get to write the rules. Ask the majority of the world, and I think you will find that true. First lesson you learn in International politics, 101. Feel free to show me how I'm wrong with the History of the USSR, China, Japan, Germany, Italy, etc.


Weapons for the civilians are forbidden or restricted a lot more than in the U.S. in most european countries as well as in Québec and our amount of violent crimes is an order of magnitude lower than in the States. Wake up. It's not the gun that makes the man.

I suspect your lack of crime has more to do with cold weather, less dense population problems, and a lack of drug use, in comparision to the US. And, perhaps better driving.

It's our own fault. With our drug trade comes the gangs and guns. With our open borders, come our gangs and guns.

With our over population comes low wages, high cost of living, and resorting to illegal means to make money.

That said, terrorism in Spain, and European countries punches some pretty God Damn big holes in your lower crime theory.

The only reason you American fellows feel you need guns is because your country has allowed to put too many firearms in the hands of people who should never have had the right to own one to begin with.

When our country resembled Canada's population density, it wasn't so much of a problem. Our problem is huge immigration, and open borders, high cost of living, and getting taxed up the arse, not to mention gangs that have greater income then most countries bleeding us dry with our drug problems, and our inability to combat it, or unwillingness to combat it, since it would make us bad people with our lower neighbors, and other countries.

Our country has gone from one that was relatively isolated, to one that with new age transportation, is a square, with 4 open lines. We haven't been willing to make the effort to close down our borders, since the cheap labor keeps our oligarchy in power, and they like it, along with running our government.
The above Europe certainly leads us in, but, immigration of thugs, from Eastern Europe, into areas like Italy, is becoming a serious problem for the Euro countries, with rising crime, driving away tourism.

However, the Italian police are more numerous, and carry machine guns openly. This does tend to make enforcing situations easier, since they are nearly para-military, as are most of the European police forces.

s
PS: Since I've been actively involved in this war, perhaps I might have a slightly different view of it then some arm chair quarterbacks...
 

Santilli

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I forgot to add that many European countries don't waste resources on the crap we try and stop. Prostitution, and drugs, in a couple Euro countries are legal. Why bother fighting that war, when bigger ones are around?
Germany and other countries are on top of terrorism, since they don't waste resources on victimless crimes, and, they destroy the incentives we have for the drug barons to deal in this country.

Declare victory, and move on would be good for this country.

We won the war on drugs, make them legal, and forget about it.

s
 

sechs

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In light of recent events:

Bowling for Columbine

Yes, Michael Moore is a bleeding-heart liberal, but perhaps people will listen to Matt Stone, instead.
 

CougTek

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I missed that previously, but...
Pradeep said:
Guns can also empower potential victims to defend themselves when previously they would have been at the mercy of criminals.
Using a weapon efficiently requires skills. Aim, shoot and kill is only for good guys in movies. Common people, especially those with a "victim" mentality, are just as likely to hurt someone just walking by than their agressor under a stressful situation. Criminals are more likely to have at least some kind of training with their weapons, if any, so in a case with both the agressor and the victim having similar guns, I would bet on the criminal's chances anyway.

I agree that firearms are just tools, but since common people have great deals of problems using many basic tools, giving them a tool that grants them the power of life and death over someone else worries my little self a tad.


One last thing...

On a personal side, I'm far more confident in my chances of overwhelming any given opponent(s) in a place where guns are out of the equation. I'm built and look insane enough to keep the great majority of bums in their right mind from attacking me here, no matter where and when I go. But in a place where any delinquent halfing has the right to carry a "tool" that can give him the edge over me, I wouldn't be as secured to take a walk. Blades and bats are fine by me, but I'm not bullet-proof. I hate the idea of dying to the hands of an inferior foe with a technology toy.
 

Santilli

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Criminals are more likely to have at least some kind of training with their weapons, if any, so in a case with both the agressor and the victim having similar guns, I would bet on the criminal's chances anyway.

No. They do have the advantage of being able to strike first. It's not a good idea for a criminal to take their illegal gun to a firing range, and, it's very difficult to find places to legally use a firearm, at least in the crowded US.

I agree that firearms are just tools, but since common people have great deals of problems using many basic tools, giving them a tool that grants them the power of life and death over someone else worries my little self a tad.

We are ready do this, with terrible consequences. It's called a driver license and cars.

However, the gun deaths by accident or otherwise are nothing compared to the number of highway deaths. Turn it over, and you realize it's amazing how well guns are handled by the citizens of the US.
 

Santilli

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On a personal side, I'm far more confident in my chances of overwhelming any given opponent(s) in a place where guns are out of the equation. I'm built and look insane enough to keep the great majority of bums in their right mind from attacking me here, no matter where and when I go. But in a place where any delinquent halfing has the right to carry a "tool" that can give him the edge over me, I wouldn't be as secured to take a walk. Blades and bats are fine by me, but I'm not bullet-proof. I hate the idea of dying to the hands of an inferior foe with a technology toy.

So, only people like yourself are entitled to feel in anyway secure against personal attacks?

God created man. Sam Colt made us equal.

That cuts both ways. CT, you'll feel better about it when you get older, and loose that physical ability, or it's diminished by injury, or age.

s
 

Santilli

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http://chezjacq.com/fackler.htm

pretty funny.

Firearms in America: The Facts

Martin L. Fackler, MD Monday, Dec. 25, 2000

I must confess to being a member of a very dangerous group. I am a physician: We cause more than 100,000 deaths per year in the USA by mistakes and various degrees of carelessness in treating our patients. Why does society tolerate us?
 

Santilli

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Because we save far more patients than we kill. Firearms are entirely analogous. Although used in far fewer deaths* - they are used to prevent about 75 crimes for each death. Firearms, like physicians, prevent far more deaths than they cause. (Gary Kleck, "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America," Hawthorne, N.Y., Aldine de Gruyter Publisher, 1991)

Consider the implications of the fact that firearms save many more lives than they take. That means decreasing the number of firearms would actually cause an increase in violentcrime and deaths from firearms.

This inverse relationship between the number of firearms in the hands of the public and the amount of violent crime has, in fact, been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. (John R. Lott Jr., "More Guns Less Crime," University of Chicago Press, 1998)
 

Santilli

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No matter how one approaches the figures, one is forced to the rather startling conclusion that the use of firearms in crime was very much less when there were no controls of any sort. . Half a century of strict controls on pistols has ended, perversely, with a far greater use of this class of weapons in crime than ever before.

In Tasmania, Australia, on 28 April 1996, a lone gunman killed 35 and wounded 21 at the Port Arthur Historic Site. The Australian legislature reacted by outlawing self-loading rifles and pump as well as self-loading shotguns. One year after the massive confiscation of guns the effects of this action became clear. Every category of violent crime had increased; the most striking was a 300 percent increase in assaults against the elderly.

Those demented persons who have expressed their frustration by a shooting spree have apparently retained enough good sense to choose places where those shot would almost certainly be unarmed: a schoolyard in Stockton, Calif., the Columbine High School, a Jewish day care center in Los Angeles, a Long Island Rail Road car (due to the highly restrictive ban on handgun carry permits in New York).

The emotional reaction to these incidents, attempting to make certain places "gun free" zones, for example, revealed a striking lack of rational thought. Apparently those pushing for "gun free" zones failed to recognize that the perpetrators of these incidents chose their sites specifically because they were already essentially "gun free" areas - practically guaranteeing no armed resistance to foil their plans.

Such gun-restrictive proposals are a certain recipe for making the situation worse. Lott's studies have shown that such mass shootings essentially disappear in states that pass laws allowing qualified citizens to carry concealed handguns (The American Enterprise, July- August, 1998).

Consider the steadily decreasing rate of violent crime over the past eight years. An article in USA Today (K Johnson, 9 Oct 00, 3A) reported "Gun injuries in crimes fall 40% in 5 years." This stark decline has occurred concomitantly with a constant rise in the number of firearms in the hands of the American public.

This strongly supports the "more guns less crime" relationship verified by Kleck, Lott, history, and common sense. This steady decrease has brought the current percentage of gun violence in the USA to its lowest rate in the past three to four decades. One would expect the anti-gun groups to be pleased and to moderate their goals.

Instead, apparently rankled by the facts proving their theories dead wrong, they are promoting increasingly prohibitive gun laws with ever-increasing zeal. Could it be that the media attention bestowed upon their cause has become addictive? Certainly, legislators have found the free TV time given to their anti-gun tirades something they cannot live without.

I suggest that a reason for the decreasing crime rate, caused in part by the increasing number of guns, lies, perversely and ironically, in the counterproductive exaggerations and incessant repetitions, by the TV media, of each and every bloody shooting they can find.

This has frightened and misled the public into believing the threat from guns is ever increasing, rather than decreasing sharply, and has whetted their appetites for firearms to defend themselves. Thus the public has bought more firearms -which has further decreased the violence from firearms.
 

Santilli

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Consider firearm registration: being increasingly promoted by nearly all anti-gun groups - and politicians. These promoters neglect to explain why or how they expect firearm registration to prevent future violence; especially since, historically, such restrictive laws have always proven ineffective or counterproductive - most often causing a marked increase in violent crime, as shown in the examples given above. We already know how honest, formerly law-abiding, citizens will react to irrational laws requiring them to register their firearms.

California has taught us. After Purdy's shooting spree on the Stockton schoolyard in 1989, the Californian legislature passed a law requiring the registration of all "assault rifles." In the emotional frenzy following that shooting incident, everybody expected legislators to pass such a restrictive law.

What happened? The price of "assault rifles" tripled in California. Many tens of thousands of these rifles poured into California before the law went into effect. Then came the time for registration. Very few "assault rifle" owners chose to obey the law.

It is uncertain how many criminals were created by this irrational law, but most estimate that fewer than 10 percent of the "assault rifles" in California were registered. If an estimated several hundred thousand "assault rifle" owners in California chose to become criminals rather than obey an irrational law, how many gun owners nationwide can we expect to do the same if required to register their guns?

Most of the facts explained above are unknown to the majority of the American public. The pro-gun political activists spend so much time harping on the Second Amendment that they tend to overlook the factual proof that decreasing the number of guns increases violence, and vice-versa.

Additionally, I believe that most Americans consider their right to protect themselves and their families a far more fundamental right than the Second Amendment.

Many honest gun owners are now frightened. They have every reason to be. Few of the facts outlined above have been revealed by a media that, instead, gives full play to the emotionally based appeals and flagrant exaggerations of the anti-gun groups.

These gun owners fear that they will be forced into a difficult moral decision: Do they obey a law requiring them to register their firearms, when they are fully aware of the irrationality and counterproductive nature of such a law? Or are they morally obligated to disobey such an unjust law -and thus become a criminal? Our forefathers faced a similar moral dilemma. Had most of them chosen to obey, we would still be a colony of England.

We must separate, dispassionately, the clearly established facts about firearms in the USA from emotionally based opinions, exaggerations, and falsehoods. No rational approach to any problem is possible until this is done.

I worry that irrational restrictive measures, such as mandated gun registration, will result in a massive backlash of civil disobedience - not by drug-dazed teenagers, but by sober, honest, and mature adults who are well-armed and proficient in the use of their weapons. That could tear this country apart.
 

Santilli

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*Footnote. When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.
 

Stereodude

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Thanks for fighting the good fight Santilli against all the bleeding heart liberals here.

Here are a few thoughts...

1) If guns aren't essential to defense and protection why is nearly every crime spree brought to a close by the arrival of guns on the scene in the hands of the "good guys"?

2) Why can't anyone figure out that the US has a problem with violence because of the citizens, not the guns? Everyone is simply reaping what the Liberal Left has sewn into society with the extraction of God, removal of personal responsibility, and general lack of respect and value for other human beings.
 

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Mercutio said:
Obviously there was "better" to be had. Slavery lasted another 100 years. African slaves were 3/5ths of a person. Women had no rights. And they weren't clear enough about the whole "well regulated militia" thing. There wasn't strong enough language WRT state's rights, so every time there's been a major socio-political change in this country, a bunch of backwards southern politicians stand up and start bitching about the 9th Amendment.
I hate to break it to you, but the "problems" you cite with the document are not with the document, but with the people reading it.

The Consitution didn't say women couldn't vote. Society applied their standards to the document.

The flaw is with the readers of the document, not the writers. The constitution could be unammended to contain only the constitution and the bill of rights and it would work perfectly.
 

Stereodude

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timwhit said:
WTF does god have to do with guns? I wish the US could do something like Canada and have low crime rates and lots of guns. I have nothing bad to say about hunting with guns.

It seems to me that gangs are far more to blame than guns are. Why are there over 600 murders a year in Chicago? Gangs. Gary? Gangs. Anywhere else in the US? Most likely gangs.

Don't think that gangs can't kill without guns? You must be stupid. People have been killing each other for thousands of years before gun powder was ever invented.
You answered your own question. God and religion has everything to do with this discussion.

The people are the problem (as you note). The people are depraved... Why are they depraved? A lack of God maybe?
 

Stereodude

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Santilli said:
quote]I'm kind of curious: what government killed more people then the Axis powers, combining world war I & II?
Well, if you look at the German's killing Jews and Stalin killing other Russians, I think you will see what he's talking about.

If those two groups of people had been armed things might not have gone quite the way they did.
 

Santilli

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Stalin killed about 20 million people. Hitler about 6 million Jews.

50 Million people died in WWII alone, IIRC.

Funny no one wants to address Dr. Fackler on this point:

Quote:
*Footnote. When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable.

I can understand the suicide stuff, in certain cases. My uncle was a competitive bicycle racer, and some disease cost him one leg.
The disease spread, and he was going to loose the other league.

At that point, he killed himself.


I find it intresting that 3 thousand deaths create such strong sentiment.
Certainly the deprivation of the second amendment rights, for 3000 killings a year is absurd. As Fackler points out, doctors kill 100,000 people a year due to malpractice.

Strange.

s
 

Mercutio

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Stereodude said:
I hate to break it to you, but the "problems" you cite with the document are not with the document, but with the people reading it.

The Consitution didn't say women couldn't vote. Society applied their standards to the document.

The flaw is with the readers of the document, not the writers. The constitution could be unammended to contain only the constitution and the bill of rights and it would work perfectly.

So the part about slaves being 3/5 of a person is the fault of my interpretation? 'Cause 60% seems like a pretty hard figure to me. Not a lot of wiggle room there. And the continual use of the gender specific pronoun "Men"? Are you suggesting that the founders really meant "...and women and people of nonspecific or indeterminant gender".

Stereodude said:
1) If guns aren't essential to defense and protection why is nearly every crime spree brought to a close by the arrival of guns on the scene in the hands of the "good guys"?

I think you watch too many movies.
Now, what about the threats to my being that are more likely to end my life than the Charles Bronson wet-dream Creep with a Gun? How does having a gun help me against the nutjobs on the highway who can't obey traffic laws? How does having a gun help me against Mad Cow disease or Heart Disease or any of the other things that are thousands of times more likely to harm me than a criminal with a gun.

In Santilli's example, he got hit on the head with a gun, and claims that if he'd had a firearm, they wouldn't've hit him. That's true. ''Cause if they saw the gun, they would've shot him instead. Is a gun going to deter a criminal? I kind of doubt it. If you present a gun before a criminal who is also armed, I think the most likely outcome is that he'll shoot first, since you've just become an imminent threat to his life.

Stereodude said:
2) Why can't anyone figure out that the US has a problem with violence because of the citizens, not the guns? Everyone is simply reaping what the Liberal Left has sewn into society with the extraction of God, removal of personal responsibility, and general lack of respect and value for other human beings.

OK, let's get rid of all the citizens then! We can import some Canadians. They'll be much better behaved with their firearms, bring us socialized medicine, fair labor practices and they'll say "eh" a lot. I for one would like to welcome our new Canadian overlords. Plus, they won't talk about god all the time.
Now, I don't know what document you've been reading, but the Bill of Rights I'm familiar with seems to indicate that Church and State are seperate institutions. Which means that whatever whacky shit you believe about your particular form of invisible, all-powerful higher power should not receive any sanction or endorsement from civil authorities.
If you want to live in a country where invisible powers have an hand in government, either build a time machine and go live in the Reagan's America, or spend some time in Iran,
I think it's great that in the late 20th century the US was made safe for those of us who don't worship in the Catholic/Protestant tradition, what with those laws being on the books for 170 years or so.

Anyway... personal responsibility? Related to Christian religion? Like, the Catholic faith, which says that if you confess, do penence and take communion, you're absolved of your sin?

I think you're barking up the wrong tree there.

God - your god, mubs' god(s), my (lack of) god - are all different entities, with very different strictures and mores. The kind of education you're suggesting that people today don't have does not, and by its very nature cannot come from this state. It needs to come from the teachings of parents, community/religious leaders outside the state] or from introspeciton on the moral and ethical issues that provide the reasons for those values. Seriously, who would get to decide what "respect and value for human beings" meant? Next thing you know there'd be some dumbass claiming that zygote created in the union of a couple of unmarried 12-year-old drug addicts is a person, while the unmarried 12-year-old addicts themselves were not ('cause that's just how certain people in this horrible place think).

In short, I disagree with you in every possible way. Try again soon.
 

Stereodude

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Merc gets the poor reading comprehension award...

Mercutio said:
Stereodude said:
I hate to break it to you, but the "problems" you cite with the document are not with the document, but with the people reading it.

The Consitution didn't say women couldn't vote. Society applied their standards to the document.

The flaw is with the readers of the document, not the writers. The constitution could be unammended to contain only the constitution and the bill of rights and it would work perfectly.

So the part about slaves being 3/5 of a person is the fault of my interpretation? 'Cause 60% seems like a pretty hard figure to me. Not a lot of wiggle room there. And the continual use of the gender specific pronoun "Men"? Are you suggesting that the founders really meant "...and women and people of nonspecific or indeterminant gender".
The 3/5ths was a compromise to get the southern slaveholding states to sign the document. It was also in regard to counting slaves for representation, not for assigning the worth of a particular human. Furthermore, if there are no slaves currently in the US, then the whole 3/5ths thing is kinda moot now isn't it?

And I am absolutely suggesting the founding fathers really meant men and women together. Would you also try to suggest that the work "mankind" only refers to men?
Mercutio said:
Stereodude said:
1) If guns aren't essential to defense and protection why is nearly every crime spree brought to a close by the arrival of guns on the scene in the hands of the "good guys"?

I think you watch too many movies.
Now, what about the threats to my being that are more likely to end my life than the Charles Bronson wet-dream Creep with a Gun? How does having a gun help me against the nutjobs on the highway who can't obey traffic laws? How does having a gun help me against Mad Cow disease or Heart Disease or any of the other things that are thousands of times more likely to harm me than a criminal with a gun.
I was talking about the cops. As in those guys with guns you call when a crime has been perpetrated against you. When someone takes hostages, what do you do? You call in SWAT who shows up with even bigger and more guns than even normal cops have.


Apparently you didn't read the Bill of Rights. Please show me where it says anything about a seperation of Church and State. It says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Taken literally (as you want to take the other parts of the document you don't agree with), it prevents congress from making Catholicism, or Baptist, or whatever else the official religion of the US. It also prevents the gov't from stopping the Catholics, Baptists, or any other group from meeting/practicing their religion.

I'm glad you disagree with me. That only further strengthens my resolve that I am right. You are a liberal and you are so very, very, very wrong about this and pretty much every other social and political issue. If you don't like the US feel free to move to Canada or one of the socialist countries in the EU.
 

sechs

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Actually, if you read *really* carefully, it says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"; not, "Congress shall make no law establishing a state religion."
 

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sechs said:
Actually, if you read *really* carefully, it says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"; not, "Congress shall make no law establishing a state religion."
I'm well aware of what it says.

Since you seem to want to attempt to claim my interepretation of the english is wrong, lets take a look at it.

Main Entry: 2respect
Function: transitive verb
1 a : to consider worthy of high regard : ESTEEM b : to refrain from interfering with
2 : to have reference to : CONCERN
synonym see REGARD

Main Entry: es·tab·lish·ment
Pronunciation: is-'ta-blish-m&nt
Function: noun
1 : something established : as a : a settled arrangement; especially : a code of laws b : ESTABLISHED CHURCH c : a permanent civil or military organization d : a place of business or residence with its furnishings and staff e : a public or private institution
2 : an established order of society: as a often capitalized : a group of social, economic, and political leaders who form a ruling class (as of a nation) b often capitalized : a controlling group <the literary establishment>
3 a : the act of establishing b : the state of being established

So we could re-write it as, "Congress shall make no law concerning/regarding a settled arrangement/civil organization of religion"

Now, please enlighten me how you and Merc's can take those same words and get some misconstrued section about "seperation of Church and State" or more specifically "ban God from everything"? Furthermore, how do you explain that deeply religious people would have penned a document that specifically excluded the very foundation for their beliefs from their new gov't?

How does it feel to be a wrong, condescending, elitist snob?
 

flagreen

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sechs said:
Ad hominem attack.

You lose!
Well that's a neat way to avoid having to respond to his points I guess.... but that's about all it is.


Stereodude - Well said.
 

sechs

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Calling someone names is hardly an argument. If you think that's well said, then that says a lot about you, as well.
 

Mercutio

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I'll use very small words, so it'll be easier for you:

When the state makes rules regarding the practice of one religion or other, it is favoring or disfavoring that religion. Holding to the words you've so helpfully defined for us, doing so would in fact be an establishment, one way or the other. This is why religious matters are properly kept seperate from secular matters.

Did that make sense?

Do you understand that not everyone believes as you? That there are people out there who think that the Semetic concept of a higher power is a bunch of hooey? That some of those people worship nature, or Zoroaster or Ganesh, or maybe nothing at all? And that maybe, just maybe, discussion or invokation of that Semetic God, might be seen as more than more than a little prejudicial those people, here in a place where all men (and women and other) are equal?

As far as the history lesson wrt Founders and religious beliefs: One of the key concepts in the revolution was to step away from rule by divine mandate. France, England and Spain at the time all had rulers who claimed that their authority to rule came from the will of God (and thus, that the rulers and nobility of the day were therefore superior to the common folk). Stating that All Men are Created Equal was therefore a strike against that supposed divine mandate. Likewise, many nations at that time DID (and often still do) have laws with regard to religion. The King of England (the guy we rebelled against) is the head of the Anglican Church, remember, and religious rules frequently carried force of law. Furthermore, on the continent, France's de facto civil authority were Catholic Cardinals , Spain's Inquisitors were used to target enemies of the (Hapsburg?) ruling powers, and in the regions of modern Germany, one's religion was decided by the whim of the graf who conquered your province most recently.
Are you seeing a pattern yet?
The rulers of the day either used religious authority as a tool to achieve their own oppressive ends.
By making no law respecting an establishment of religion, the founders gave up a tool that had been misused for centuries by European heads of state, and by doing so created a government of the people for the people (as opposed to Government by the Purported will of God by a bunch of Inbred Parasites).

As far as founders and religion, a sizeable fraction of the total were deisits, rather than christians - men who believe in a non-interventionist creator rather than the God of the Hebrew people, and I'd hazard to guess that a fairly large chunk were Masons, a group with its own spirituality distinct from that taught in the churches of the day.
 

flagreen

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sechs said:
Calling someone names is hardly an argument. If you think that's well said, then that says a lot about you, as well.
I wasn't talking about the ad hominem when I said "well said". The man wrote so much more than just that.

Why not just ignore the ad hominem and respond to the points he made if you disagree? You're more than capable of putting together a good argument to support your opinions from what I've seen. I seldom agree with you but that doesn't mean that I don't know a good argument when I see it.
 

flagreen

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Mercutio,

When the state makes rules regarding the practice of one religion or other, it is favoring or disfavoring that religion.
Can you give us an example of a "rule" which was made by the federal government which favored a religion?
 

sechs

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flagreen said:
I wasn't talking about the ad hominem when I said "well said".

That's not what you wrote. Just scroll up and check.


Why not just ignore the ad hominem and respond to the points he made if you disagree?

I will not encourage such behavior. If a man wishes to make an ass of himself, I will call him on it and be on my way.
 

sechs

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flagreen said:
Can you give us an example of a "rule" which was made by the federal government which favored a religion?

Would not such a law be unconstitutional, per our previous "discussions?" No such law, then, should exist.
 

Mercutio

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flagreen said:
Mercutio,

When the state makes rules regarding the practice of one religion or other, it is favoring or disfavoring that religion.
Can you give us an example of a "rule" which was made by the federal government which favored a religion?

My money says "In god we trust."
When I'm bored I've been known to cross those words out of my bills. I certainly don't trust whatever god is involved in this.

Christmas is a federal holiday. Why?

Ever been to court? The standard oath ends "So help me God." and is sworn with one's hand on a Bible. Yes, the state can accomodate someone who doesn't want to say that oath, but why not just make everyone say the oath that doesn't involve the christian holy book?

When I was in grade school, in the little hick town where I grew up, days started with a prayer, and because one of the teachers was a minister's wife, there was observably different treatment for the kids who went to her church. Now, that sort of thing was illegal in 1982 or so, but it still happened, and as the seven year old who wasn't raised in that tradition, at all, it was an uncomfortable thing.

You might say that in each case that no specific "god" is mentioned, so in theory, the "god" our money is talking about could be the god of the christians, the god of the jews, the god of islam. But it's awfully naive to think it's anything other than former.

As a purely civil matter, it we have laws in this country that don't make a whole lot of sense, except in that the cater to someone's particular religious beliefs. In Indiana, I can't buy alcohol on Sunday, for example. Religious beliefs are/were also cited in laws regarding the availability of abortions and prophylactics, interracial marriage, same-sex unions and domestic partnerships, divorce, women's rights, sex- and science education... do I need to go on?
Granted, most of these laws are enacted at the state level, but IIRC, most states pretty much verbatim copy that first amendment to the bill of rights into their own state constitutions.
 

flagreen

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sechs said:
flagreen said:
Can you give us an example of a "rule" which was made by the federal government which favored a religion?

Would not such a law be unconstitutional, per our previous "discussions?" No such law, then, should exist.
That's what I was thinking. I can't think of a single instance where this has been done in the U.S.. What has been done though and what is constitutional is the passing of laws which favor all religions. The tax code for instance. So why is prayer in school for all religions not constitutional?


sechs said:
That's not what you wrote. Just scroll up and check.
Looking back I can see why you think that. I should have done more than double space between my comments to you and to Stereodude in that post to indicate there was no relationship between the two. At any rate my intent was to complement Stereodude on everything but the ad hominem.
 

Santilli

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Briefly, the Constitution is designed to limit only the Federal government, not the state governments. Only through the 14th amendment was the Bill of Rights extended to the states, and then only selectively.

The Founding Father's intentions are made pretty clear in The Federalist Papers.

They did not want any Federal religion, nor any restriction on anyone to practice their own religion. In other words, the design of the land at the time was 13 strong states, with a limited federal government. The states could make laws, in fact all rights not reserved specifically to the Federal Government, are reserved for the states(11th amendment).

The concept was people of like minds could live and govern their own state, and have their own religion in that state. The Constitution was NOT designed to limit states from making laws concerning religion, because they
believed those who lived in an area, of common belief, could, and should, make lows that extended those religious mores and ethics, into law.

In other words, it makes little sense to believe in laws, mores, and ethics designed by your Creator, and not impliment them into law.

The 14th amendment was only passed to make southern states align with the northern beliefs on slavery, and economics. Even after it's passing, the
Slaughterhouse Cases, IIRC, in 1873, sort of over ruled the amendment.

Suffice to say that the current state of affairs was changed by a few key events.
The revolutionary war created two camps. One who fought in it, George Washington, and Company, who believed that the Federal government had to be strong enough to raise tax and an army, since they had nearly starved, and had a very hard time buying clothing and arms. etc.
Also, as I have stated before, without enough military power to protect your nation, we would be speaking either English, Spanish, or French.

Others did not believe the trade off was worth it.

In Santilli's example, he got hit on the head with a gun, and claims that if he'd had a firearm, they wouldn't've hit him. That's true. ''Cause if they saw the gun, they would've shot him instead. Is a gun going to deter a criminal? I kind of doubt it. If you present a gun before a criminal who is also armed, I think the most likely outcome is that he'll shoot first, since you've just become an imminent threat to his life.

Since I was there, you don't mind if I give you a bit of insight?
I was in the bathroom, and knew when the three entered, they were up to something. If I had a 45 at the time, I could have backed to the wall, pulled the gun, and told them to get the hell out. Or, I could have fired a shot. 3 to one odds are sufficent, in that situation in particular, to justify some pretty extreme actions, and remedies.

Instead, I tried to push through the three of them, and started yelling.
I figured I was better off in the middle, so I could hit them, and know I was hitting a bad guy. I threw them off enough so one, the leader, pulled the gun. At that point, he pointed it up, and not at me, but used it to hit me over the head. I pretended to be hurt, and sank down, out of reach, but ready to spring, if he pointed the gun at me. I kept yelling. Since their little game wasn't going the way they wanted, they decided it was time to leave.

The guy never pointed the gun at me, and from my low leg position, I was in striking distance of all three. Still, my choices were severely limited, and it was only by the grace of God that he didn't shoot me, or, it could have been the 20 plus years of training for such situations that threw them off,
not giving them the expected reactions they wanted.

I know this sounds weird, but after going 15 rounds with the World Heavyweight Karate Champion, Dennis Alexio, slightly prior, I was not particularly worried about their ability to do harm with their fists. I figured that if I had too, I could do really severe damage, in a very short period of time. I was concerned about the presence of weapons, since that changes the game. When you are threatened with a knife, or gun, you have little choice but to do as much damage as you can, as quickly as you can. I know that appears to support your position, but, I would rather have the chioces that a firearm would have presented, rather then been at a severe disadvantage, 3 to one, and they have a gun.
With my back to the wall, I was quite aware of what they had in mind for me, and, given a gun, I could have avoided the stiches on my head.

s
 

Stereodude

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Mercutio said:
Do you understand that not everyone believes as you? That there are people out there who think that the Semetic concept of a higher power is a bunch of hooey? That some of those people worship nature, or Zoroaster or Ganesh, or maybe nothing at all? And that maybe, just maybe, discussion or invokation of that Semetic God, might be seen as more than more than a little prejudicial those people, here in a place where all men (and women and other) are equal?
I know they do. And that doesn't make them any less wrong. But, that's the neat thing about the US. People have the right to be wrong.
 

Stereodude

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Mercutio said:
My money says "In god we trust."
When I'm bored I've been known to cross those words out of my bills. I certainly don't trust whatever god is involved in this.

Christmas is a federal holiday. Why?

Ever been to court? The standard oath ends "So help me God." and is sworn with one's hand on a Bible. Yes, the state can accomodate someone who doesn't want to say that oath, but why not just make everyone say the oath that doesn't involve the christian holy book?

When I was in grade school, in the little hick town where I grew up, days started with a prayer, and because one of the teachers was a minister's wife, there was observably different treatment for the kids who went to her church. Now, that sort of thing was illegal in 1982 or so, but it still happened, and as the seven year old who wasn't raised in that tradition, at all, it was an uncomfortable thing.

You might say that in each case that no specific "god" is mentioned, so in theory, the "god" our money is talking about could be the god of the christians, the god of the jews, the god of islam. But it's awfully naive to think it's anything other than former.

As a purely civil matter, it we have laws in this country that don't make a whole lot of sense, except in that the cater to someone's particular religious beliefs. In Indiana, I can't buy alcohol on Sunday, for example. Religious beliefs are/were also cited in laws regarding the availability of abortions and prophylactics, interracial marriage, same-sex unions and domestic partnerships, divorce, women's rights, sex- and science education... do I need to go on?
Granted, most of these laws are enacted at the state level, but IIRC, most states pretty much verbatim copy that first amendment to the bill of rights into their own state constitutions.
We live in a representative republic, and much to the chagrin of people like yourself you are in the minority. As such it's not surprising that the laws and traditions of this country reflect the values of the majority. Either way, I fail to see how any of the single cases you reference are violation of the first ammendment. Either Congress did not enable the act (law) you are complaining about, or it doesn't interfere with someone's ability to practice his religion, nor is it a federally mandated religion (which is what it says).
 

Stereodude

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sechs said:
Ad hominem attack.
It's not an Ad hominem attack. It's a fairly accurate portrayal of a liberal.

Face it. You are a liberal. Liberal's are inherently elitest and condescending. They have to be. You assume the federal gov't (if doing thing the way you want) could do a better job at everything than people can themselves. It doesn't matter if it's how to raise your child, health care, welfare, etc. That by it's very nature makes you condescending and elitist. As for the wrong part, that's my opinion, and last time I checked I'm still entitled to it.
 

CougTek

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Religion is viewed as right by the idiots, wrong by the wises and useful by the rulers.

...or something like that.

Ever noticed how G.W. Bush always uses "God" to justify his abuses?

And regarding our own little Stereodude, well...

I've never voted for the Liberals in my country, but reading some of the comments here, I cannot help but being condescending :
Stereodude said:
You are a liberal and you are so very, very, very wrong about this and pretty much every other social and political issue.
Stereodude said:
And that doesn't make them any less wrong. But, that's the neat thing about the US. People have the right to be wrong.
I suppose this isn't condescending? In my own very humble opinion, a gullible 23 years old with a peon mentality depecting me and people thinking similarly as unilaterally "wrong" is quite "condescending" and shows a serious "elitist" character from the person making the comment.

By your own definition, I guess you're a bloody Liberal too, dude.


BTW, in order to become a U.S. citizen, you have to agree with the "Pledge of Allegiance" :
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Now, if this isn't "an example of a rule which was made by the federal government" to favor a particular religion, I don't know what this is. In theory, no one not believing in any God can become a U.S. citizen. That's the pinnacle of elitism. Strike three to your freedom of thoughts.
 

Santilli

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"Liberals" are currently the ultimate lie. I was, and am still accused, of being liberal. Liberal, since I'm old enough to have been around when the start of the movement really got going, was originally a term applied to socialists, etc.
True liberalism, in the early 60's implied a tolerance to listen, and learn, from all points of view. It also clearly stated that "liberals" were listening to all input, and value it logically. In other words, liberal meant what it means in the dictionary.

Conservative was someone that was fixed in their ways, and would not listen, much less change.

I was in Bezerkely as a jr. high school student, and summers as a high school student, from 65-72. My mother loved the art school at UCB, and each year we would move from conservative-racist areas inland, to Bezerkly for the summer.

I was, and for that matter, still am, VERY liberal, believing in trying new ideas, new concepts, etc. and looking at the past established status quo, vs. the ideals we believed in. I was, and still am, against Korea, and Vietnam, and any other conflict where we were stupid enough to try and fight 4000 miles away, in a country that borders on 2 billion chinese, who want the same thing we did in Cuba, a buffer zone.

Not to mention that the country, Vietnam, had been through 20-100 years of war, and they were very good at it.

That said, as I grew in the area, somethings became really evident.
These 'Liberals" would not listen to others ideas when they conflicted with their own, and despite all logical arguments, nothing stopped their dogmatism. Nor did they adhere to their alleged liberalism, willing to know, and befriend, other races.
Race was a classic, since I have ALWAYS been anti-racism. Probably since
my mother firmly believed that all people were created equal, under God, and even though I had little religious training, at the time, we did function
on the concept that all were individuals, and would be judged on their merits. This was not the case inland, for either blacks, or whites.

I remember in 8th grade, after growing up in a mixed racial situation, playing basketball in Pittsburg, CA. A black guy wanted to play, and since, for a long time, my friends, and teamates had been black, and I respected your game, not your color, I had no problem. However, the guys in Pittsburg, Italian, and other European groups, and banned together, because , unlike Berkeley, they did not allow others to push them around, and, during that period, certain black gang elements took advantage of the situations to dominate, and intmidate, other races. That was not the case in Pittsburg.
In other words, the white backlash to people abusing the concepts of equality, to gain advantage, had already started.

From the liberalism of the time, came a resentment that started with abuse,
and it's grown in this area. Blacks, likewise, have become more racist then prior.

I was bowling in a league in Albany, and took a beautiful black teamate to Pleasant Hill's now defunct bowling alley. Despite the fact that I bowled with the best guy in the house, and knew the lady at the door quite well, the girl was treated like shit by the local kids that night, and all I could do was aplogize for being such an idiot, taking her there. This, in 1996, long after I thought we had fought, and won the war against racism, an entire
new generation of racist have either come from parents, or, from being discriminated against by government. When you use the Devils tools, you end up with the Devil's results, and that's exactly what has happened with affirmitive action.

Likewise, I was beaten over the head by three black guys, who didn't know me from adam, just because I had to kiss ass with the asshole white guy at the desk, because he was the manager, and at his whim, myself, and 3 other black teammates bowled for free, since we were in a league there.

The guy kicked them out, for being drunk, and, when he did it, I just happened to be at the desk, trying to get his sorry ass to turn our lanes back on. Since I was the only white guy in the place, besides the manager,
and they couldn't get him, they figured beat up the other white guy, when he went to the bathroom.

I did not know of them, and, I had never had any contact with any of them.

These are isolated examples, but, you can see a bit of a growth of conservative thought. I believe in treating others as you would like to be treated, and forgiving.

Given these situations, and others, robbery in particular comes to mind,
little by little, I quit justifying bad actions, by minorities, and started looking at the actions, and the people, and connecting them.

When you start doing this, you start getting called all kinds of names.

We get fed a lot of shit about people are all all right, it's just their actions that are bad. Bull.

I'm sure, as with animals, you get genetic defects. Children at 5 that feel no remorse, or feeling, about beating or killing others.

Actually, special education experience has allowed me to realize that all that justification garbage about poor kids is bull. The bottom line is, despite any disability, they have to know what is right, and what is wrong, and that their actions require consequences. The blame for actions have to go on the actor, not on society, but, the society must deal with all equally, or, the people given preference end up with harm in the long run.

All the liberal justification stuff did was create a sense of entitlement in our society.

Common to education is the adage that if you are faced with a difficult situation, tolerance is golden. Bull. The children KNOW what they are doing is wrong, it's just they get away with it, due to their being justified by others, and allowed to continue.

As long as this situation exists, the problems persist.

We have, since the early 60's tried all this liberal crap, and a lot of it just doesn't work. People are figuring it out, slowly but surely.

Somehow, those divorced from actually having to deal with their liberal ideals, those who are not in the trenches, dealing with Day treatment violent children, etc. come up with all these fluffy ideas about how it should be, and what will work. Those of us who do the work, have another ideal.
And here is the conflict. To really deal with the problems, you have to be continually able to test, reevaluate, and decide if what you did works, change, and go on.

Often I find, superiors are what I call facist-liberals. They have their own ideas, are unwilling to hear any contrary position, and will fire you, and try and cut your balls off, regardless if you have a valid point or not.

My favorite example of this kind of thinking is Bev Hansen, principal at Mt. Diablo High School. I was the head of the Black Student Union at the time, and the prior year, I had opened up the gym for the black kids to play, along with others that signed up, during lunch, and, at times, after school.

Considered a 'liberal educator" she refused to listen to both myself, and the local security and police, about the merits of my program, and denied us access to the gym, even though I had run it the prior year, with no problems.

This was the same woman who closed all bathrooms, except two, on a campus of 2500, because we had two bathrooms terrorized in response to her idiotic policies. I tried to present our position, but, this 'liberal' inacted a policy that attacked only one group, the BSU.

The biggest joke of the year was when a vice-principal asked me if I would sponsor, and open the gym for the volleyball team, mainly orientals, at lunch...

:evil:

This kind of facism, under the name of liberalism, is what creates a really
hatred for facists, using the liberal name, to further their own intolerance.
s
 

Santilli

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Messages
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To take it one step more, 'liberals' have become lemmings as well. Rather then looking at all data, history etc. they now look at 'conservatives' and bandy against someone, rather then for a position.

Bush is a great example. He spends money like a drunken liberal, giving millions to peoples that really need to die, so that their land and countries can survive.

They take pot shots at Bush for everything he does, failing to balance merits, etc. against failings.

I could go into a multi-level analyisis of the war in Iraq, but I won't.
Let me keep it simple. Saddam was a psycho tyrant, and, he has had a history that Stalin would be proud of. He should have been killed long ago, but slipped the bullet, thanks to liberals saying we shouldn't kill terrorist heads of states, or any heads of state.

Finally we get rid of him, and people complain their is no exit strategy, etc.
Well, we went into a muslim country, killed a murdering bastard, who
violated all his countries mores. If we pull out today, we will leave the place as it has been, with 3 different factions fighting for control of the area, all muslims, and the Kurds. Go to the CIA website for brake down on who is trying to control the country.

We should pull out today, and we would leave them better then we found them.

REgardless of what happens, any country without a dictator that is a Hitler, Stalin, or Saddam is much better off then prior.

s
 

Santilli

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Messages
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Finally, the best example I can think of currently is the all so obvious
silence addressing the valid issues brought up by Dr. Martin Fackler about gun control.

The real saddness is that it's obvious the anit-gun people have no intrest in information or honest discussion, or they would address his very valid points, or, at least admit that he makes valid points, and factor them into their opinions.

That's not the case here. I consider this sort of failure to address, or failure to accept alternate points of view on the subject intellectual dishonesty.
If you are a liberal, you should be willing to listen, discuss, and value all view points, in the hope that the dialectic process will improve your understanding, and others understanding of complex issues.

If you are not a liberal, just admit that you are either a facist-liberal, one who believes in only what they think is right, regardless of facts, socialist, whatever, or some other, non-dialectic process belieiving group.
Don't hide behind a label, failing to address the issues, or discuss them.

Also, don't waste your time, and others, listening to your rhetorical dogma that is presented a s a valid position, in a discussion.

However, I should revise that. Discussion requires listening and participation. What I see here is rhetoric, followed by total lack of communication, masked in a variety of trolls, designed to take the focus off
the lack of addressing facts presented, slightly different then the 'liberals'
belief.

s
 
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