Kalifornia=1984 50% tax on water

[Santilli]

I went ballistic today. I've been reading stuff that suggests a good weight loss tip is 8-10 8 oz glasses of cold water, per day, kicks up your metabolism, and the energy used looses weight.

It's working for me. So, Costco has these 32 oz water bottles that are an easy way to do what they suggest.

I usually reuse the bottles, since I'm in a pretty ritzy place, Walnut Creek, and the water is very good.

Today, I bought cat litter, water, about 4.00, since it was a small case, 32 oz bottles,
and that was it. When I checked out, the fucking California government charged me 2.00 deposit, on the WATER, and bottles they are in. WTF?
That's a 50% tax for buying fucking water(please excuse the language, but I'm that pissed).
I returned it, ASAP. I use the bottles, and have many already, and don't just throw them away.

I will say that I'm getting out of this stupid frigging state, ASAP.

 

[MaxBurn]

Most places do bottle deposits but you get that back so I don't think of it as a tax. NH doesn't though.

 

[Santilli]

2.00 dollars, on a 4.00 purchase, and you think of that as a deposit?

 

[BingBangBop]

Simple: It is a deposit, if you can get it back. It is a tax if you can't...

You may not choose to get the deposit back, but it is still a deposit if you can.

Well, which is it?

 

[Bozo]

I think the idea is to encourage people not to buy plastic bottles. You might recycle/reuse yours but millions of people don't. They end up in a land fill and remain there for hundreds of years. Or they end up in that gigantic plastic blob in the Pacific ocean.
Besides, most of the bottles are made from foreign oil.

 

[sdbardwick]

2.00 dollars, on a 4.00 purchase, and you think of that as a deposit?

Yup. 10 cents per bottle 24 ounces or larger, 5 cents each for smaller. Doesn't depend on price of contents. If you were charged more than that the store made a mistake or there is some other local program that is adding fees. The program has some weird exceptions, like distilled spirits.

 

[MaxBurn]

Get yourself some drinking bottles and stop buying bottles.

Living in the US one of the nice things is the faucet water is always drinkable and if it isn't it is generally a big regional or national news item.

If you don't like the taste of tap water just get some sort of filter thing, tons of options. I have a filter going to the fridge and another in the fridge and what comes out the door is pretty nice.

 

[Handruin]

I highly recommend you consider a Kleen Kanteen stainless steel bottle. I bought into one about 7 years ago for about $25 (27 oz) and I use it every day. Now it's about $14. It follows me everywhere I go. The bottle is made from food-grade 18/8 stainless steel. There are no coatings, liners, or anything that will wear off. It's non-leaching (BPA-free) and will not alter the taste of your water. My bottle has been through hell and back and it may no longer look pretty, but it's still very functional (and durable). It's also 100% recyclable if you decide you no longer want it one day.

I use mine only for water, no other beverage. If you think you'll want one for other beverages, get two. They will last you for years.

 

[ddrueding]

I highly recommend you consider a Kleen Kanteen stainless steel bottle. I bought into one about 7 years ago for about $25 (27 oz) and I use it every day. Now it's about $14. It follows me everywhere I go. The bottle is made from food-grade 18/8 stainless steel. There are no coatings, liners, or anything that will wear off. It's non-leaching (BPA-free) and will not alter the taste of your water. My bottle has been through hell and back and it may no longer look pretty, but it's still very functional (and durable). It's also 100% recyclable if you decide you no longer want it one day.

I use mine only for water, no other beverage. If you think you'll want one for other beverages, get two. They will last you for years.

Seconded. I have several, and my local NPR affiliate sent me another (that fits on my bicycle) the last time I renewed.

 

[Handruin]

Mine is scratched all to hell because I also use it when I ride my bike. It fits tightly into the metal holder which scratches it a bit. Plus, I've also washed mine in the dishwasher and when you get one with a pained finish, this should be avoided. Next time I would have bought the unpainted version of the bottle. I'm going to try power-washing my bottle to see if I can get the rest of the paint off.

 

[Mercutio]

I'd really like to know how the issue of sales or use taxes relates in any way to George Orwell's 1984.

 

[Santilli]

I use the bottles to freeze water, then use that to keep stuff cold in a cooler.

I also have some bottles from costco that I use for water.

Sam, use your imagination:

If you don't remember 1984:
"Nineteen Eighty-Four (first published in 1949) by George Orwell is a dystopian novel about Oceania, a society ruled by the oligarchical dictatorship of the Party.[1] Life in the Oceanian province of Airstrip One is a world of perpetual war, pervasive government surveillance, and incessant public mind control, accomplished with a political system euphemistically named English Socialism (Ingsoc), which is administrated by a privileged Inner Party elite.[2] Yet they too are subordinated to the totalitarian cult of personality of Big Brother, the deified Party leader who rules with a philosophy that decries individuality and reason as thoughtcrimes; thus the people of Oceania are subordinated to a supposed collective greater good"

I think when the government starts telling me how hot my water can be, using taxes to dictate behavior, and a bunch of elected officials are so far outside the Constitution they swear to uphold, it becomes very much like what Orwell was describing.

I also like his analogy to our system of government.

 

[Mercutio]

I remember 1984 quite well, Greg. I've read it a dozen times. And while it deals with an authoritarian political system and a general lack of economic mobility for the members of the working class, it never explicitly addresses taxation.

You seem to be conflating a valid and reasonable fee with some attempt at thought control. I put forward that this association exists only in your mind.

 

[Santilli]

"You seem to be conflating a valid and reasonable fee with some attempt at thought control. I put forward that this association exists only in your mind. "

If you don't see how government uses laws, taxes, etc. to dictate behavior, then I'm clearly not going to waste my time trying to open your eyes. In fact, your statement
that a 50% fee is "valid and reasonable" defines your view.
I don't know where it stops, and, I sincerely hope I'm dead before you find out.

It's odd I'm arguing about something I really don't care about. I don't care about plastic bottles, and this water thing. Never really understood what was wrong with glass. I guess no container that carries a liquid
is without tax in Kali. That bothers me. I guess carrying fluids is something the government is trying to discourage, or is it physical fitness, or is it really they just want as much money as they can get,
no matter how they get it? The monkey is growing fat and heavy in Kali.

 

[LunarMist]

Wow, you obviously don't want to understand what a tax is. The deposit on beverage containers is there to encourage reuse/recycling and reduce improper disposal as trash.

 

[Santilli]

That's the line they try and sell. When I was a kid, I could buy 7 up in a bottle. Pay a deposit. When I finished the drink, I could take it back to the store, they would give me the dime or nickel back, and I'd use it for something else in the store.

Great system.

But, government has to have their cut. So, they make legislate that system out of existence, and we now have only a few places to return bottles, called recycling centers. In our area they have limited hours, and days, and are few and far apart.

End result is by far the majority of that 'deposit' money, ends up being a tax. In fact, without easy access to recycling centers, it becomes cost ineffective to bring the the stuff to a recycling center.

As a practical matter, people have to create large areas to store all their recylables, and they then pack those up, and take them to a center. The end result is tremendous effort, and time, making the 'deposit' a penalty for buying the product. It also gives me a choice. Have garbage bags full of plastic bottles on the porch or in the house, or throw them out.

Another fun one to look at is the bag situation. First they tell us plastic is better then paper. They plastic is worse, because paper breaks down much better, and plastic doesn't, so now we get back to paper. What happened to the massive industry that was
setup to produce paper bags?

Fact is government intervention does nothing much but drive prices up, make stupid decisions, and create situations worse then the original problem.

Don't even get me started on oil, gasoline, and how that has evolved.

Everytime government gets involved, they add cost, tax, whatever, and generally screw it up.

Ecology comes to mind to well, and the 'reintroduction' of Canadian wolves to an area that already had a native wolf community.

 

[Santilli]

How about cars?

Most of the world has smaller, lighter, more practical vehicles then we do.

When I was in Hawaii they don't have all the safety regulations we have in Kali.
The result is they have a lot of high gas mileage, light cars, brought straight from Japan, which also has a high percentage of light, fuel effective vehicles.

I come to Kali, after 10 years, and even the light cars weigh 4000 pounds, or more.
Detroit always thought more was better, but, now it's legislated. After you add the safety bumpers, air bags, beams in the doors, etc. even the performance cars are in the 3700-4500 pound range. WHY?

You get hit by a mac truck, your done. Now we have created a state with pretty much nothing but small, heavy, tanks, in the quest for protecting and saving everyone in a car accident. The only problem with this approach is engines have to be bigger, and create more power, along with eating a LOT more gas. Also, once you set an object in motion, the ability to deviate from it's path is directly proportional to it's weight. In other words, you sacrifice agility, the ability to avoid accidents, for weight, and in theory, protection.

However, that isn't the case. You can build a 2000 pound race car with a roll cage that is far safer then any of the cards on the road, at 3 times the weight.

Again: Legislators are lousy car designers, and, when they screwed around with the market, they took us in the exact wrong direction to free us from dependency on oil from other countries.

On the otherhand, gas is a major cash cow for taxation for the Kali government. Perhaps
the real design was to keep, or increase gas prices, and consumption, so the coffers of government are kept full, and Caltrans can replace Silicon Valley as the 6th largest
economy in the world.

 

[Stereodude]

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but cars in Hawaii have to meet the same federal regulations as the cars sold in every other state.

 

[Santilli]

No smog laws in Hawaii.
No laws about how gasoline is produced.
Hawaii tends to be exempt for a number of reasons. Location, history, being the 50th state, and some common sense in government.

Hawaii can import cars directly from Japan and they do not have the same stuff required by the Federal government.

Hawaii is as close as you can get to being in another country, in the United States.

 

[DrunkenBastard]

That's the line they try and sell. When I was a kid, I could buy 7 up in a bottle. Pay a deposit. When I finished the drink, I could take it back to the store, they would give me the dime or nickel back, and I'd use it for something else in the store.

Great system.

But, government has to have their cut. So, they make legislate that system out of existence, and we now have only a few places to return bottles, called recycling centers. In our area they have limited hours, and days, and are few and far apart.

End result is by far the majority of that 'deposit' money, ends up being a tax. In fact, without easy access to recycling centers, it becomes cost ineffective to bring the the stuff to a recycling center.

As a practical matter, people have to create large areas to store all their recylables, and they then pack those up, and take them to a center. The end result is tremendous effort, and time, making the 'deposit' a penalty for buying the product. It also gives me a choice. Have garbage bags full of plastic bottles on the porch or in the house, or throw them out.

Another fun one to look at is the bag situation. First they tell us plastic is better then paper. They plastic is worse, because paper breaks down much better, and plastic doesn't, so now we get back to paper. What happened to the massive industry that was
setup to produce paper bags?

Fact is government intervention does nothing much but drive prices up, make stupid decisions, and create situations worse then the original problem.

Don't even get me started on oil, gasoline, and how that has evolved.

Everytime government gets involved, they add cost, tax, whatever, and generally screw it up.

Ecology comes to mind to well, and the 'reintroduction' of Canadian wolves to an area that already had a native wolf community.

Ok sounds like the recycling system sucks there in your neck of the woods. Here in NY all major supermarkets etc have automated bottle return machines, you feed in the bottles, it gives you money. There's a good income for some just picking up discarded bottles on the side of the roads and turning them in. Now, if you happen to only own a bicycle, and have bags of bottles to return, then you are prob SOL (blame the need for a car to get around most of the US).

 

[Santilli]

Used to be that way in Kali, when it was glass only. You take the bottle to the corner store.
When that days delivery came in, they picked up the returns. REAL simple, worked really well.

Legislature made a bunch of laws that stopped that system from functioning.
They didn't get a cut, since their was no tax, they had no chance to keep money, unless somebody broke a bottle. No revenue for the state with that system, bottom line.

 

[Handruin]

You always seem so unhappy with California. What's stopping you from moving somewhere else?

 

[Mercutio]

I'm sure there's a compound in Idaho that would be happy to have him.

 

[Handruin]

I'm sure there's a compound in Idaho that would be happy to have him.

I'm not familiar enough with Idaho to know the reference.

I don't know if they have Costco there. Plus, there is no shore, so he won't be able to surf or watch the girls surf.

 

[Mercutio]

A lot of libertarian separatist-types have taken up in eastern Oregon and Washington, Idaho and Montana.

 

[sechs]

If you don't see how government uses laws, taxes, etc. to dictate behavior, then I'm clearly not going to waste my time trying to open your eyes.

I think that your complaint is that the government is forcing you to internalize otherwise external costs.

Personally, I don't want to have to pay for what you choose to do to screw up my world. I'd much rather that you pay for it. Fair?

 

[sechs]

Hawaii can import cars directly from Japan and they do not have the same stuff required by the Federal government.

As a matter of practicality, most, if not all, of the Asian car manufacturers import to California and then ship to Hawaii. As such, they often have California emissions equipment.

As the cost of fuel is naturally very expensive, people in Hawaii tend to buy efficient vehicles.

Hawaii is as close as you can get to being in another country, in the United States.

<cough>Texas</cough>

 

[sechs]

Legislature made a bunch of laws that stopped that system from functioning.

I'll bite. What exactly did they do?

 

[Santilli]

As a matter of practicality, most, if not all, of the Asian car manufacturers import to California and then ship to Hawaii. As such, they often have California emissions equipment.

As the cost of fuel is naturally very expensive, people in Hawaii tend to buy efficient vehicles.

<cough>Texas</cough>

Whatever. The toyotas I bought in Hawaii had Federal regs: a PCV valve.

Fuel cost was last fixed in Hawaii at 4.00 a gallon, IIRC. Standard oil must be loving that.
Used to be, before China want cars, that oil tankers came to Hawaii with a load, dumped it,
and Standard Oil made a ton of money, on cheap oil from Eurasia. A lot of that has been soaked up by China, meaning to cost to Hawaii, and Kali, is elevated. However, Kali, with our endless smog regs, elevates the cost of processing to further increase the prices.

I'm not being clear. Sechs: You are totally off based on why gas is expensive in Hawaii. It's because it's price fixed by Standard Oil who has the only refinery on Oahu.
Sechs: I bought the smallest car engine possible for both my wife and myself in 1989. I am one of those people that did all they could to help the world, and got stuffed by how things are handled by the government. Kali is a fleet of SUV's at this point, built like tanks, instead of Euro like, fuel savy small cars, or space effective ones.

I spent most of my free time in college fighting for proper sewage treatment.

I am the LAST person you will EVER be cleaning up after.

I never understood the entire plastic bottle thing, plastic bag thing, etc. that government forced down our throats.

Yes, I like trees. But, a lot of trees were planted for one reason, to be turned into paper bags that work, and are degradable.

It never ceases to amaze me how many poor ecological decisions are made by our alleged
concerned government.

As for Texas, Kali' is closer, I think, to being Mexico then Texas. Last time I looked, 52% of the public school population is Mexican. Should tell you something about the demographics or Kali.

 

[LunarMist]

Geeze, it's not the 80s anymore. The last time I was in Hawaii was recently and the rental car I had was just like any other vehicle. Do you really think that Hawaii wants extra smog pollution or that Toyota/Honda/Nissan wants to make a limted number of different cars for Hawaii than other states?

 

[Santilli]

Sechs: Your full of it.

First off, what practicality? You want to send ships another 6000 miles to Kali and back to Hawaii, and that's practical. Bullshit.

Second:
Hawaii is near halfway between China and Kali. Oil companies were shipping crude to Hawaii, having Standard Oil process it, and selling it at a reduced rate.
Standard Oil loved that. No Kali bullshit refining laws, cheap crude, close to the source.
Very little tax on gas in Hawaii.
Great profit for Standard Oil. Not enough, since they felt the need to price fix, since they are the only refinery on the island.

Ahh, the pile on folks. Hawaii has this thing called trade winds. It blows any smog back to China, hence they don't need any air pollution laws.

Hollywood and the Palisades are bigger, and produce more smog then the entire
Hawaiian Islands combined, car wise.

 

[Handruin]

Greg, I don't think the price of gas is at a fixed rate in Hawaii.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/news/2011/12/02/hawaiis-average-gas-price-declines.html

 

[LunarMist]

Greg, have you been to Hawaii in 2011? The price is not as high as you would think.

 

[Santilli]

Excuse me, while I chew on some crow.;-)

Thank you for the link to the gas price fixing stuff. I didn't realize it had been repealed. I don't really get that, since there is only one refinery, or at least that I know of, in the islands, so Standard Oil does have a monopoly and no competition.

I suppose the threat of the Gov reinstating the price limit on gas probably keeps gas around the 4 dollar mark.

I haven't been back, for a variety of reasons. Primarily I had been teaching during the real surfing months.

When I left, everything was at it's Japanese driven economic peak. The Japanese nearly bought the islands, then had to dump a lot of the properties, cheap, due their economic crash.

I've talked to a few friends, and, I guess it's got more violent, crystal meth and cocaine influence, not to mention the down turn in the economy.

LM:

I gather you went recently. I'm all ears.

 

[sechs]

I'll also point out that Standard Oil was broken up in 1911....

 

[Santilli]

Standard Oil has the only crude oil refinery in the Hawaiian Islands that I am aware of.

This is a huge advantage, since tankers from Asia can dock, dump their oil, and Standard Oil doesn't even have to pay shipping, or put up with restrictive standards for gasoline production.

 

[Stereodude]

Standard Oil has the only crude oil refinery in the Hawaiian Islands that I am aware of.

Really?!?!?

 

[Santilli]

"In 1998, Tesoro acquired refineries in Kapolei, Hawaii, and Anacortes, Washington."

Happened after I left. I'm pretty sure that refinery was for the military only, since it's on what used to be Barber's Point Naval base. IIRC, Barber's Point was slowly being sold off, to the public.

"Tesoro Hawaii Refinery

Tesoro Hawaii printable fact sheet

As the leading supplier of transportation fuels in Hawaii, Tesoro plays a key role in meeting the state’s demand for jet and marine fuels, which are critical to the local economy. Our refinery can process up to 94,000 barrels per day of crude oil to make gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, ship fuel, asphalt and fuel oil for electrical generation.

Tesoro Hawaii distributes refined products statewide. On Oahu, pipelines from the Kapolei refinery feed terminals at Honolulu International Airport, Honolulu Harbor and military installations. Pipelines also deliver products to Kalaeloa Barbers Point Harbor, where they are transferred to ships and barges that supply the Neighbor Islands. Gasoline and diesel are sold through a network of Tesoro-branded retail stations on Oahu, Maui and the Big Island, and through distributors."

So Tesoro has moved in, taken over what, I believe, was a government owned refinery, or used to supply the US military, and is using the same inferstructure to supply the public,
our military, etc. I don't remember Tesoro gas stations when I was over there, but my memory on such stuff isn't great.

That's good. Two companies are better then one. As I said before, I don't believe, during my stay there, that there was more then one refinery producing gasoline for the public.

That certainly explains why when my stepfather came over he could get gas at Barber's Point for half what I was paying on the street.

 

[Santilli]

"In 1998, Tesoro acquired refineries in Kapolei, Hawaii, and Anacortes, Washington."

Happened after I left. I'm pretty sure that refinery was for the military only, since it's on what used to be Barber's Point Naval base. IIRC, Barber's Point was slowly being sold off, to the public.

"Tesoro Hawaii Refinery

Tesoro Hawaii printable fact sheet

As the leading supplier of transportation fuels in Hawaii, Tesoro plays a key role in meeting the state’s demand for jet and marine fuels, which are critical to the local economy. Our refinery can process up to 94,000 barrels per day of crude oil to make gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, ship fuel, asphalt and fuel oil for electrical generation.

Tesoro Hawaii distributes refined products statewide. On Oahu, pipelines from the Kapolei refinery feed terminals at Honolulu International Airport, Honolulu Harbor and military installations. Pipelines also deliver products to Kalaeloa Barbers Point Harbor, where they are transferred to ships and barges that supply the Neighbor Islands. Gasoline and diesel are sold through a network of Tesoro-branded retail stations on Oahu, Maui and the Big Island, and through distributors."

So Tesoro has moved in, taken over what, I believe, was a government owned refinery, or used to supply the US military, and is using the same inferstructure to supply the public,
our military, etc. I don't remember Tesoro gas stations when I was over there, but my memory on such stuff isn't great.

That's good. Two companies are better then one. As I said before, I don't believe, during my stay there, that there was more then one refinery producing gasoline for the public.

That certainly explains why when my stepfather came over he could get gas at Barber's Point for half what I was paying on the street.
Thanks for the link, SD.

 

[sechs]

Both refineries are in Kapolei, near the Barber's Point Naval Terminal, from which products are exported to the other islands. It's also near their major customers, the former Marine Corps Air Station Ewa, Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam, and, of course, the Honolulu International Airport, to which there are direct pipelines for jet fuel.

As far as I can tell, both refineries have been there for decades. Both were probably built and operated by civilian companies on the the former Naval Air Station Barber's Point to produce fuel for both military and civilian use.