Need inexpensive Ultra160 SCSI Controller

[Fushigi]

I'm going to migrate my Atlas 10K II data drive into my wifes machine, where it will replace the Deskstar 22GXP as the sole drive in the machine. The Deskstar is going to another PC. In my rig I'll replace the Atlas with a 120GB+ / 7200RPM / 8MB Cache drive from Maxtor or WD. Something of a step down in performance for me, but the increase in space will make up for it (and I use an X15 for a boot drive).

Anyway, the 10K II needs a SCSI controller & I don't have any in my parts bin. So I've got to buy one. It will support the 10K II only; no other SCSI devices. Requirements: 68pin LVD Ultra160 support, 32bit/33MHz PCI, compatible with VIA chipsets & AMD Athlon CPUs, Windows 98/2K/XP capable. The drive has been quite happy on my old Tekram DC390U2W.

Any suggestions for a decent card?

Thanks,
Fushigi

 

[CougTek]

The LSI Logic U160 SCSI controller sold in a white box kit at Hypermicro.com for 89U$ with free shippinig if you mention Storagereview.com in your order. The item # is LSIU160-WB and you can find it on this page. It is fairly cheap for a standard U160 SCSI controller with drivers for most operating systems.

 

[Fushigi]

CougTek, thanks for the suggestion. The LSI looks pretty good. Even it is probably overkill. I don't foresee needing 64bit PCI in my wife's PC anytime soon. The kit includes a cable & terminator. QLogic has a cheaper card but it doesn't include any cables or terminator.

Any other suggestions? If not, I'll order the LSI late tomorrow or Monday.

- Fushigi

 

[blakerwry]

I was also going to suggest the LSI, it seems on par with adaptec controllers and has a much more attractive price. When I was scsi shopping a while back the LSI was simply the best value. Having great features, performance, and reputation while carrying a low cost and wide selection of scsi controllers.

 

[Tea]

I'd look out for a second-hand 80MB/sec controller. You won't lose any performance at all, and you should be able to pick one up for small change - nobody wants "old", "low-tech" SCSI gear.

By the way, I don't think you'll be too sorry about not having the 10K II any more: I find that, so long as I have an X15 to boot off, the relative sluggishness of an IDE 7200 is quite bearable. Very bearable if the data I happen to be storng is my credit card statement.

 

[Fushigi]

I'd look out for a second-hand 80MB/sec controller. You won't lose any performance at all, and you should be able to pick one up for small change - nobody wants "old", "low-tech" SCSI gear.

By the way, I don't think you'll be too sorry about not having the 10K II any more: I find that, so long as I have an X15 to boot off, the relative sluggishness of an IDE 7200 is quite bearable. Very bearable if the data I happen to be storng is my credit card statement.

Yeah, I'm going to go to a computer show this morning to see what they've got availablae. There's usually a mix of new + used stuff. If I find a used card like my DC390U2W that includes cables & terminator for less than the new LSI, I'll go that route.

And ever since I had to re-enable IDE in my rig to support optical drives, I've been contemplating making this change. I also plan on capturing my CD collection to disk to set up a jukebox which will be hooked into my home theater. That will require more space than I've got so another disk is needed anyway.

- Fushigi

 

[Fushigi]

The saga continues...

Before hitting the computer show I checked the Sunday Chicago Tribune ads to see what the retail giants like CompUSA, BestBuy, etc. had to offer. Thus, I had price comparisons at the ready for the show.

Well, the show was a bust. Too much unusable used stuff (ISA cards, 2MB PCI video, etc.). The used SCSIs weren't even 80MB capable & didn't come with cable/terminator so in the end they wouldn't be any cheaper than the LSI. New stuff .. I avoided temptation by not even looking at CPUs & motherboards, etc. New IDE HDs .. no 8MB cache models and generally nothing more than 120GB.

Overall somewhat disappointing but I did pick up a few misc. cables.

So I headed over the CompUSA and nabbed the WD 160GB SE ( http://www.westerndigital.com/products/current/retailkits/wd1600jbrtl.asp ). I am presuming it is 4 40GB platters but that's fine for my usage. The retail kit is bundled with the Promise Ultra100 TX2 ( http://www.promise.com/product/product_detail_eng.asp?productId=11&familyId=3 ) controller. Price is $279.99 + tax - $20 instant rebate - $80 mail-in rebate = $197. Basically just over $1/GB.

I'll install the drive tonight or tomorrow. I will try to use it 1st with my mobo's ATA100 controller to avoid adding yet another card to the rig. I will likely partition it as 9GB / 9GB / 70GB / 70GB (roughly). The 9GB partitions will be used for online-backups of my X15's partitions. The 70GB partitions will be for data with the 2nd partition acting as a backup-in-case-I-do-somthing-stupid of the first until I actually need the extra space. If anyone has any other suggestions on a partitioning strategy, I'd love to read them.

BTW, in terms of backups, I do back up to AIT tape periodically. Not often enough, but it does happen.

I'll check MicroCenter for SCSI cards today & maybe stop back at CompUSA (was so wrapped up in getting the WD I forgot to look at their SCSI selection). If they can't compete with HyperMicro & the LSI' I'll order that tonight.

- Fushigi

 

[Tea]

I guess you don't need me to tell you this, but never, ever, ever buy a hard drive at a swap meet (AKA "computer show"). I've seen tradesmen lay bricks with more care and less mechanical shock than they way stallholders treat hard drives at swap meets. Controller cards, motherboards, software titles, sure. Well, the warranty might be dodgy but the product itself can be OK if it's still in the box and sealed up. But the only way I'd buy a hard drive at a swap meet is if I wanted one that didn't work for my collection.

 

[Fushigi]

Oh, I agree that the shows are definitely in the buyer-beware category, especially for anything with moving parts. Buying a case? Check to see if the PSU is UL listed. Used cards & all .. check to see if they look to be packaged in anti-static bags, look for driver disks where appropriate, examine for scorch marks and any other obvious signs of damage/abuse/neglect.

And always always always buy from someone with a local store front so you can personally visit them if a problem arises.

Oh, on the subject of new HDs, pretty much everyone at the show is selling OEM units that are in sealed anti-static bags in foam trays that hold around 30 drives. So they should not have been abused. However, there's no telling how the drives were treated before being packed to take to the show & if the trays themselves have been dropped or even if the shipment was stored under bad conditions (too cold/hot/whatever).

The best things to pick up at the shows are used monitors, reconditioned UPS units, speakers, and cables/connectors. And basic add-in cards like entry level video, sound, NICs, USB 2, etc. The occasional piece of software isn't bad but my software needs are pretty minimal. Motherboard/RAM/CPU/HSF combos if you get them from a single vendor & buy a board you've researched ahead of time.

Finally, don't take the vendor's recommendations as gospel for anything; they are at the show to make money; not to solve your computing problems.

- Fushigi

 

[Fushigi]

Nuts. I could've bought the WD 200GB SE drive for $200 at Microcenter: http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0147925 . Same retail kit w/the Promise controller. Damn them for not putting their ads in the paper!

- Fushigi

 

[CougTek]

Could you run Winbench's disk transfer test to see/inform us of the platter size of your WD1600JB? If it tops at ~50MBps, it's a 40GB/platter model. If it's ~57MBps, then it's a >60GB and we'll all be jealous (since both I and JTR1962 have been screwed with 40GB per platter versions of another SE Caviar).

 

[Buck]

WD doesn't make 4-platter disk drives at the moment, so any WD1600xB drive will be made from 60 GB platters.

 

[Mercutio]

If you ask, Microcenter will put you on the mailing list for their ads. Microcenter's newsprint ad is very comprehensive.

 

[CougTek]

Since you bought it today, couldn't you just go back to the store and exchange your 160GB for a 200GB? Afterall, they probably don't make more money on one over the other so for them, it doesn't change much of anything. There will always be another fush...err, fish ( :wink: ) to buy the 160GB model later so it shouldn't moist on the shelf for very long. Just tell them you will be forever grateful and that you'll recommend them to all your unumerable* friends. Anyway, this is just an exchange, it's not like if you'd want your money back.

*translation attempt

 

[Mercutio]

innumerable.

But we all knew what you meant.

In the US, most chain stores have no questions asked return policies within 30 days of purchase. The bigger issue for Fushigi is probably the fact that he'd have to brave Butterfield Rd. and Ogden Avenue (whole States in the US get less traffic than Butterfield road and Ogden Avenue, since there's an even more crowded toll road - I-88, between them) to do the swap.

 

[CougTek]

Oh and BTW (and since I'm sadistic :diablo: ), how much did you pay your WD1600JB?

(rebate)

 

[Fushigi]

Could you run Winbench's disk transfer test to see/inform us of the platter size of your WD1600JB? If it tops at ~50MBps, it's a 40GB/platter model. If it's ~57MBps, then it's a >60GB and we'll all be jealous (since both I and JTR1962 have been screwed with 40GB per platter versions of another SE Caviar).

Once it's installed and seems to be working well I'll see if I can run a benchmark or two.

If you ask, Microcenter will put you on the mailing list for their ads. Microcenter's newsprint ad is very comprehensive.

I'm on the list, but they don't send the ads out weekly & I haven't recieved the latest one just yet. Actually, the sale on the 200GB model doesn't start until 1/1/03 so it's possible the ad hasn't been mailed yet.

Since you bought it today, couldn't you just go back to the store and exchange your 160GB for a 200GB?

Two problems with this: 1. I already opened the packaging, including the anti-static bag. 2. I bought the 160 at CompUSA; the 200 is at Microcenter so I couldn't exactly do an exchange. It'd be a return with possible restocking fee.

The bigger issue for Fushigi is probably the fact that he'd have to brave Butterfield Rd. and Ogden Avenue (whole States in the US get less traffic than Butterfield road and Ogden Avenue, since there's an even more crowded toll road - I-88, between them) to do the swap.

For me, the CompUSA on Route 59 in Naperville is closer; really just a few minutes from the house. Microcenter is on Ogden and I drive by it every day going to work. A coworder and I went there during lunch today so he could pick up some CD-Rs. They had the 200GB drives sitting out but no sale/rebate tags on them just yet since the sale price doesn't go into effect for a couple more days.

Butterfield, Ogden, and I-88 are all nuts. Mostly I use Ogden as it's reasonably steady and the stops are for lights, not just "because" (which seems to be the only explanation for most highway slowdowns). I-88 if outside of rush hour. Butterfield is more of my old stomping grounds but I still hit it once in a while, like when Mercutio & I met. Butterfield & Ogden are roads that, if you have to make a left turn onto them and aren't blessed with a traffic light, the easiest thing to do is turn right, turn left onto a side road/parking lot, turn around, and turn right onto Butterfield/Ogden again. For those who drive on the left side of the road, swap right <--> left.

Oh and BTW (and since I'm sadistic ), how much did you pay your WD1600JB?

A few bucks more than that. $180 after rebate; $197 with tax. Yeah, I found that one today at Bensbargains. What a difference a day makes. Too bad there's no local Fry's around here or I'd pursue a pricematch.

OK, I could have gotten the drive for less. But I still remember paying almost $400 for a 20MB drive so many years ago so when put into perspective, paying just under $200 for a 160GB drive + controller is still quite a bargain.

BTW, I changed my partition strategy: 1 8GB + 2 72GB partitions. The data from my 2nd X15 partition will be migrated to the 72GB and then that partition will be turned into Photoshop page file area.

It's formatting NTFS now...

- Fushigi

 

[Fushigi]

Cougtek / Buck -

To confirm Buck's statement, it appears to have 60GB platters as Winbench reports a beginning transfer rate of 56000 and an ending rate of 49900 KB/s. The partition I'm testing is the 2nd of 3 (8GB, 71GB, 71GB).

Running in plateaus, about 14GB into the partition, the transfer rate dropped to ~55MB/s; 25GB to 54MB/s; 44GB to 52MB/s; 62GB to 51MB/s; 68GB to 50MB/s.

"testbed" disclosure: Thunderbird 1.4GHz on Asus A7A266 (POS mobo), 256MB Crucial PC2100, PC Power & Cooling Turbocool 350 PSU, Asus V7700 Deluxe GeForce2 GTS, Kingston NIC, X15 and 36GB 10K II on Tekram DC-390U2W, SB Live MP3, Zoom V.92 PCI modem, LiteOn 48x12x48 on mobo IDE, WD 1600JB on Promise Ultra100TX2, everything supported by APC SmartUPS 1000XL. W2KPro SP2, NAV 2002, Winbench 99 V2.0 running during testing.

....

A little wierdness when copying files from my FAT32 10K II to the NTFS 2nd partition: 4 large files (650 - 710MB) would not copy. I'd get an "insufficient resources" message and a "An error was detected on device \Device\Harddiskx\DRx during a paging operation" (where x=0, 1, etc.) would be logged to the Event log. Upped my pagefile to 1.5GB, rebooted, tried again, still failed. Verified Temp area has 3+GB free. Basically, they wouldn't copy over singly or all together. In the end I added them to a zip file, which I had to create off the large drive and then extracted the files onto the new drive. That worked, but I really wonder why the error occurred.

Anyway, all data has been migrated to the new drive & I'm currently cloning the data from the first big partition to the second.

One thing's for sure, the PC will be a little less noisy once the 10K II has been removed. Above the other fans in the chassis & the X15, I could still easily hear the 10K II seek; the WD I can hear but have to really listen for.

- Fushigi

 

[CougTek]

To confirm Buck's statement, it appears to have 60GB platters as Winbench reports a beginning transfer rate of 56000 and an ending rate of 49900 KB/s.

Thanks for the info/confirmation. You're a lucky guy.

A little wierdness when copying files from my FAT32 10K II to the NTFS 2nd partition: 4 large files (650 - 710MB) would not copy. I'd get an "insufficient resources" message and a "An error was detected on device \Device\Harddiskx\DRx during a paging operation" (where x=0, 1, etc.) would be logged to the Event log. Upped my pagefile to 1.5GB, rebooted, tried again, still failed. Verified Temp area has 3+GB free. Basically, they wouldn't copy over singly or all together. In the end I added them to a zip file, which I had to create off the large drive and then extracted the files onto the new drive. That worked, but I really wonder why the error occurred.

It's probably some Windows' related annoyance, but just if you're curious, try the same with the WD1600JB connected to the motherboard ATA controller instead of the Promise. Who knows (yes I know it will be sluggier, but just for testing purposes)?

 

[Fushigi]

It's probably some Windows' related annoyance, but just if you're curious, try the same with the WD1600JB connected to the motherboard ATA controller instead of the Promise. Who knows (yes I know it will be sluggier, but just for testing purposes)?

And it also is happening when copying from the first big partition to the 2nd. NTFS for both so it's not a FAT32 issue.

If I get some time I'll look up the error in the MS knowledge base; maybe there's a resource that's being exhausted that I'm not aware of.

- Fushigi

 

[Buck]

I don't think the ALI chipset is helping much on those large file transfers.

 

[Fushigi]

I don't think the ALI chipset is helping much on those large file transfers.

While it is truly a POS chipset, I'm not sure how it would be a factor when the drive is connected to the Promise controller and that the problem only crops up on files > 650MB. I can do aggregate transfers of over that amount without error as long as no individual files are >650MB (or thereabouts).

- Fushigi

 

[Buck]

Are both drives connected to the Promise controller card?

 

[Fushigi]

Are both drives connected to the Promise controller card?

I only have 1 IDE HD. I do have an IDE CD-RW on the mobo IDE, but it's not being referenced during this procedure. If need be I can move the CD-RW to the Promise card & totally disable the mobo IDE.

The two times this have happened are:

1. From X15 on Tekram SCSI to WD1600JB partition on Promise Ultra100TX2
2. From WD1600JB partition on Promise Ultra100TX2 to another partition on the same drive.

And I just tried a third way:

3. Select the 744MB file, Control-C, Control-V to copy it to the same dir on the same partition. The error still occurs.

The Atlas 10K II is now unplugged and the machine is definitely a little quieter.

- Fushigi

 

[Buck]

WD has two new files available for your combo:
Windows Ultra TX2 Driver (was put up this month)
and
Ultra TX2 BIOS, version 2.0.0210.2
http://support.wdc.com/download/#promisedriver

 

[Fushigi]

Thanks, Buck!

Windows reports I'm already at the new driver level although the driver is dated from June & not December. Odd, so I'll update the driver anyway. I'm not sure what BIOS level is on the card so I'll update that as well. I'll report back later on the results.

- Fushigi

 

[Fushigi]

OK, the driver itself was no different. The BIOS was an upgrade from 2.0.0210.1 to 2.0.0210.2. No difference on the file copy problem, but the new BIOS doesn't like the onboard IDE on my mobo; after everything initialized, the system hung. Annoying, but livable; I disabled the mobo IDE in the BIOS & moved my CD-RW to the Primose's other channel.

So, the problem still exists & now my mobo IDE can;t be used (no great loss).

I'll continue working on it later. Today's a holiday so I'm not going to work on it anymore today.

- Fushigi

 

[Buck]

Today's a holiday so I'm not going to work on it anymore today.

Understood Fushigi, I spent the past 4 hours working too (although I got paid).

 

[Fushigi]

I contacted WD's support this morning via email. They responded quite rapidly with a link to the following MS knowledgebase article: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;259837

This sounds like the problem I'm encountering but I'm already running SP2, which supposedly has the fix.

I suppose I can add SP3, although I've been leery of it since there were some problems when it first came out.

If I have the time, I'll work on it tonight when I get home.

- Fushigi

 

[mubs]

With the standard kernel, 1 kilobyte (KB) of paged pool is required for each megabyte (MB) of file size that is opened for buffered I/O. Because there are two files involved in a copy procedure, 2 KB of paged pool are required for each MB in the source file.

That's from the MS KB article. A ratio of 2kb required per 1MB of file size shouldn't be causing this problem in your case; a 744MB file should require 1.5MB RAM. I'm failing to see how this could be causing the problem in your case.

 

[Fushigi]

I'm guessing that the page pool could be allocated from a more limited resource pool (like the user & gdi resource pools from older versions of Windows) vs. having the entire system RAM + pagefile available.

Anyway, the kb article describes my problem pretty accurately, including mentioning using archive utils as a workaround. The big flaw is that it suggests running SP2 or newer & I'm already on SP2.

OK, so can W2KSP3 be uninstalled (reverting to SP2) with little pain?

- Fushigi

 

[Mercutio]

Yes, if you save the files from your current install (one of the steps in the upgrade process).

 

[Fushigi]

Yes, if you save the files from your current install (one of the steps in the upgrade process).

Arigato. SP3, here I come.

 

[Fushigi]

And it works! I successfully copied the large files between partitions & copied the largest file within the same directory.

Thanks to everyone for their assistance.

- Fushigi

 

[Fushigi]

The LSI Logic U160 SCSI controller sold in a white box kit at Hypermicro.com for 89U$ with free shippinig if you mention Storagereview.com in your order. The item # is LSIU160-WB and you can find it on this page. It is fairly cheap for a standard U160 SCSI controller with drivers for most operating systems.

I installed the LSI controller last night and finished the migration from the old Deskstar 22GXP to the Atlas 10K II with no problems. Partition Magic makes some things so much easier.

The LSI OEM "kit" doesn't come with a manual or any drivers. Of course, the manual wasn't needed although my Tekram's configurator is a bit more intuitive than the LSI's. I downloaded the drivers for '98 (what my wife's machine runs). The included cable & terminator didn't look to be of any great quality but are sufficient. I mentioned SR in the comment section but Hypermicro charged me shipping anyway .. I'll have to email them about that.

My wife is still considering eliminating her PC from her desk. If that happens, it goes to my den & will join my Folding efforts.

- Fushigi

 

[James]

Sorta related, sorta unrelated - is the transfer speed issue on XP/2000 with SCSI drives fixed, does anyone know? There just aren't enough hours in the day to reread all the stuff in the SR forum on the subject...

 

[Cliptin]

Sorta related, sorta unrelated - is the transfer speed issue on XP/2000 with SCSI drives fixed, does anyone know? There just aren't enough hours in the day to reread all the stuff in the SR forum on the subject...

cas may correct me as e seems to have a (more?) firm grasp on the issue. There is not a bug in the SCSI sub-system of XP. The reason XP is the speed it is relates ... oh forget it.

Read this: http://forums.storagereview.net/vie...ghlight=&sid=9a3def3006e481271df79b9424dba39d

 

[James]

So the short answer is really a "no," eh?

I'll be entering the joys of home ownership of a SCSI drive for the first time in almost 4 years with a Quantum Atlas 10K III courtesy of Clocker in about a week or so, hence the question.

 

[Cliptin]

So the short answer is really a "no," eh?

Yeah, succinctly the bug has been fixed and SCSI speeds are no longer abnormally high. The same applies to W2k SP3. I believe that there is still a problem with dynamic disks though.

 

[Onomatopoeic]

...The drive has been quite happy on my old Tekram DC390U2W.

Any suggestions for a decent card?

Without a doubt, the LSI Logic line of SCSI host bus adaptors is your answer. Tekram bases their SCSI host bus adaptors on LSI Logic's SCSI engines.

LSI Logic has the best overall SCSI host bus adaptors on the market today. You can get "white box" versions of most LSI Logic SCSI host bus adaptors for way CHEAP prices compared to Adaptec.

http://www.lsilogic.com/products/stor_prod/hba/scsi/index.html