Need macro indoor camera advice

[ddrueding]

Why do I always end up committed to projects I'm not qualified for?

Anyway...I find myself needing to take the best pictures possible of jewelry (silver, gold, and stones). I have control of the environment and just need the cleanest shots I can get.

I'm currently using a Fuji FinePix S602Zoom and a Casio Exilim Ex-Z750. I have a pair of 250W photo lamps on tripods and a decent tripod for the camera. I'm shooting on a paper with a white-black gradient.

Problems:

Lighting - I can't seem to get the lighting even enough across a piece of curved reflective metal to avoid hot spots and still manage to fill the various nooks with light.

Focus - The depth of field isn't sufficient to capture both the back and front of a piece.

Color balance - making gold look like gold is harder than I anticipated. Many shots are taking on a blue-green tint that I really don't like.

[whine] not being able to preview the images on my computer while I'm shooting them! This 3� LCD sucks for focusing with! [/whine]

I'm a bit ashamed of the work (and the website) but you can take a look at the pictures here. and see if you can see what I mean.

All those pictures were shot with the Casio and the following settings:

ISO 50
F 2.8
Shutter between 1/13 and 1/1000
Manual Focus
WB set for daylight
7.2 MP

I can throw a bit more money at this problem if it would significantly improve the outcome.

Questions:

Would getting a DSLR with a macro lens help significantly?

Would getting a crapload more lights and some umbrellas help?

Is this a case of an IO (idiot operator) problem? What am I doing wrong?



If you recommend a camera, keep in mind this is all it will be used for. The work is 8-24� away in a controlled environment and it's not moving.

TIA

 

[Tannin]

I can tell you some basics that you probably already know. But just for the record:

* Use the smallest f stop you can withut running into difraction problems - i.e., around f/11 or f/16. You might even try f/22 if you camera can do that. (Bigger f number = greater depth of field)

* Use a low to middling ISO. Low ISO = less noise, but longer exposure times on diitital senors increase noise. Probably IO 50, but try 100 too.

* Let the shutter speed get as long as it needs to be - use a tripod and remote release - camera shake for macro work doesn't follow the usual rules of thumb.

* If you can't get the light even, stop fighting with the lighting, use the light in a creative way. You can do heaps with creative lighting and (soft) shadows. Work with the light. Consider doing some of the shots outdoors with natural lighting.

Macro photography is hard - you will need a lot of trial and error. I've recently discovered with my snazzy new EF-S 60mm macro lens on the Canon DSLR that, although it can produce amazingly good results, it's a lot harder than using my old Nikon Coolpix 4500 was.

 

[ddrueding]

Thanks for the advice, Tannin.

I've found that the camera can do F 7.2 if the optical zoom is completely...zoomed? but that the minimum focus distance is now 50cm! It's at 10cm when completely zoomed out, but then I can only manage F 4.0, and only at ISO 100 and higher.

Working with the light....I like the sound of that, but hot spots make me begin to curse; especially when the glare is the only thing that is in focus.

 

[ddrueding]

Also want to add: I've been using a 2 second shutter delay to get my hand clear - is that enough? Or should I use a 10-second delay?

 

[LunarMist]

Macro photgraphy is rather difficult, and jewelry is more difficult yet. Specular and diffused lights, reflectors and light tents are often used. Digital cameras, especially P/S, have limited dynamic range so highlight reflections and sparkle need to be controlled in size and shape. CA and sensor blooming are also significant problems. In the old days, we used 4x5s for jewelry to alleviate some of the difficulties.

If this project is business related, I would hire a pro.

 

[mubs]

You need to diffuse the light, as LM said; that will kill the highlights and light up the crevices. But diffused lighting will need more powerful lights in the first place since there is so much loss.

I did some macro shooting of rings a couple of days back (used the sunlight coming in the room from the large glass patio doors). I really had to play with the settings, and the best shots came from not the most intuitive settings. It has a Super Macro mode that gets as close as 2 cm, but results were disappointing. I got better results from normal Macro mode, keeping the camera some 15 cm away and zooming in. What really helped was:

a) switching to spot focus
b) switching to spot metering

I left the white balance on auto, but in the best exposures the gold looked a sick (too) yellow. I fixed that in editing, but I think in your case you need to figure out which WB setting works best (ignore all other problems for the time being). I suggest you try incandescent, then cloudy; one of these will be better than the results you have.

And I'll echo what has been said - macro work is hard, and jewellery is even harder.

 

[LunarMist]

I left the white balance on auto, but in the best exposures the gold looked a sick (too) yellow.

I prefer to use WhiBal cards for setting the color balance. Simply shoot the cards (pocket size is appropriate) and neutralize the color off of the brightest, non-overexposed card during RAW file conversion. For critical color matching one can also shoot a MacBeth color chart, but that should not be necessary for jewelry. I sometimes use iCorrect EditLab Pro to create profiles based on multiple gray patches if necessary due to lighting mixed lighting, colored reflections, crossed curves in film scans, etc.

 

[ddrueding]

RAW files....wouldn't that be lovely.

If this project is business related, I would hire a pro.

This project is business related, but it's just not feasible to send it all out considering the number of pieces we need to shoot. The photographer we have been using charges $50 per piece, and I've got shots almost that good already. The pro others in the industry reccomend is closer to $150 per piece. We already have about 70 pieces on the website and probably another 70 still to be done. Not to mention a continuous output of 5-10 pieces a month. Add to this the turnaround time involved in sending the work out and getting it back. If I'm able to do a decent job, the savings would be most impressive.

 

[Handruin]

It might be worth considering a different camera with features more in line with taking macro shots. I don't know if the cost would be worth it, but at least something to consider if you'll continuously be taking these pictures. (70 * $50 = $3500)

 

[ddrueding]

Oh yes, that's definatly something I'm considering. But I want to make sure that it's not the human element that's holding me back. I'm also futzing around with technique, placement, lighting position/color, and of course, my photoshop skills.

 

[mubs]

Thanks, LM, I'll take a look at the links later, I have to run now. Can those things be used only for RAW images? All I have is a p&s that does JPEG only. Sure I'd like to buy a good DSLR, but I'll have to get rich first!

 

[ddrueding]

I've been spending some time at Cannon's EOS site, and you guys know how much I like toys...is there an online retailer in the US anyone would recomend? (Just for pricing at the moment)

I notice they have an entire line of macro lenses, what would be best?

Would the differences between the Rebel and the 20D be appreciated for this work?

 

[Handruin]

I know Lunar is leaps and bounds ahead of me in the camera department (Hell, I keep asking for my own help), but I bought my 20D from Dell when they had a decent deal. All my other equipment (lenses, bag, filters, batteries, etc) were purchased through B&H photo. I've had 100% success with them and I've spent a considerable amount at their store. I bought my compact flash from newegg, but otherwise everything else came from B&H.

In regards to the 20D vs. the Rebel, for my own needs (wants) I felt it was worth the difference. If the only thing you'll be doing with this camera is macro work, I don't know if the price difference is worth the difference. My opinion would be to spend the difference on a nice macro lens vs. paying more for the 20D. Put the extra into lighting or those white balance cards that Lunar recommended (which I'll probably buy soon). But, I'd also listen to folks like Lunar, Tannin, Buck, P5-133XL and a few others. They have more experience than I do with photography.

The bottom line is, I feel the 20D is worth the extra money, but perhaps not for what you’ll be doing. For what it’s worth, canon’s triple rebate may still be active. I just filed for $510 worth of rebates. I bought the canon EF 100mm macro F/2.8, but I haven’t had a chance to really test it out. The few good shots I’ve done were not macro, but they came out very sharp. Macro photography requires a lot more practice on my part. Otherwise, I’ve read great reviews on this lens. Check www.fredmiranda.com for reviews on lenses. That’s where I’ve spent a lot of time looking through comments and other people’s photos to get some ideas of how well the lens + camera work.

I believe tannin bought the EF-S 60mm macro, so maybe he can give you his opinion on that lens.

 

[ddrueding]

I just filed for $510 worth of rebates.

I don't want to think about how much you had to spend to to get that much back; but I'll go read up on the offer if it's still valid.

 

[mubs]

Simply shoot the cards (pocket size is appropriate) and neutralize the color off of the brightest, non-overexposed card during RAW file conversion. For critical color matching one can also shoot a MacBeth color chart, but that should not be necessary for jewelry. I sometimes use iCorrect EditLab Pro to create profiles based on multiple gray patches if necessary due to lighting mixed lighting, colored reflections, crossed curves in film scans, etc.

Whoa! Most of that went right over my head!

 

[Stereodude]

You need a light tent.

 

[ddrueding]

I'm currently using some frames with really heavy diffusion paper in front; basically turning 6000 lumens of point source into 3000 lumens of 12"x12" panel. It seems to be dropping the color temp a bit in the process.

What is a good materiel to bounce light off of? I'm thinking of white glossy tagboard (or foam-core presentation board).




Also, important question. Some of her shows still require physical slides to be submitted to the selection jury. Who would you reccomend to make physical slides out of digital prints?

 

[Handruin]

I just filed for $510 worth of rebates.

I don't want to think about how much you had to spend to to get that much back; but I'll go read up on the offer if it's still valid.

Purchase any of the products listed from an authorized Canon USA dealer or reseller between October 15, 2005 and January 15, 2006. Claims must be postmarked by Febuary 6, 2006. See Terms and Conditions for complete offer rules.

You still have time left if you're interested:
http://consumer.usa.canon.com/app/pdf/Promotions/CIWC_101505_ClaimForm.pdf

Rebel XT = $75 rebate
EF 100mm 2.8/F macro = $20

2 different items gets you 2x the rebate on each (if you buy a 3rd, different item, you get tripple on all items):

Rebel XT = $150
EF 100mm 2.8/F macro = $40
Total rebate = $190

 

[ddrueding]

That Rebel is so tempting.

Here are my latest attempts (warning: 5 really big images). I have a feeling I'm getting close to the capabilities of my equipment. I'll leave the decision of whether it's good enough to the jeweler.

Any more suggestions would be more than welcome.

 

[Santilli]

I finally bought it. I figured even with the rebates, I was still getting a telephoto lense for about 200-300, and, another lense as well, down to 18mm, so I get the macro end covered, as well.

Plus, I've always had Nikons, until buying a Rebel Eos Film, and I LIKE Nikon optics. Never disappointed.

Have to remember to follow up on the rebates, since niether link works.


gs

 

[Santilli]

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11098999&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=

 

[paugie]

Here are my latest attempts. I have a feeling I'm getting close to the capabilities of my equipment. I'll leave the decision of whether it's good enough to the jeweler.

Congratulations. Those are much, much better than the ones shown in the website. Save the money on the cameras.

Buy lighting equipment first to soften the hotspots. If you think that won't do it then go ahead with the rest of the hardware.

rank amateur here floating in.

 

[Tannin]

I agree with Paugie: this latest batch are a vast improvement. Maybe there is a convention in these things, but for mine, the highlights add to rather than detract from the pictures/ Great work Dave!

 

[Buck]

You're doing good Dave. You should also consider using multiple diffused light sources in order to reduce shadows.

 

[mubs]

What paugie said.

 

[time]

A huge improvement! Congratulations, David.

Before rushing out to get an SLR for this, ask yourself what you expect to achieve.

I'd also agree with Tannin - I think you need some highlights, so more diffusion may not be such a great idea.

 

[ddrueding]

Thanks for the compliments guys, I really appreciate it (and the suggestions)!

I'm currently using 2 250W 3200K bulbs in 12" lamps diffused to within an inch of it's life. I think I'm going to take some more advice and set up a light tent to be lit by these two and use a point source (perhaps a halogen?) to add an accent. I had so many images with burn-in spots I'm very hesitant to go for highlights.

 

[Stereodude]

Your best bet is going to be a light tent and 2-3 color temperature matched lights shining into the tent.

Try puting one on a side, one in back, and one on top and shoot in from the front at a downward angle. Simple clamp on fixtures with incandescent bulbs with a metal reflector will do the job as long as your camera can get the white balance correct.

 

[mubs]

Make a cheap light tent.

 

[Buck]

Make a cheap light tent.

Nice link mubs.

 

[ddrueding]

Very nice link, thanks mubs. My current light tent is working for my project, but that is a neat idea!

 

[mubs]

You're most welcome, gentlemen, glad to be of service.

 

[Handruin]

I'll repeat what has already been said. Nice link mubs! Now I'll likely be making one of those to test out my macro lens.

 

[Handruin]

I bought the WhiBal this past sunday and it arrived today. Thanks Lunar for making me aware of it. I read/watched the online tutorials and agreed that it was a good value for the money.

Auto White Balance

White Balance after using WhiBal

tip: Open in seperate browser tabs and switch back and forth the see the difference.

 

[ddrueding]

I bought the WhiBal this past sunday and it arrived today. Thanks Lunar for making me aware of it. I read/watched the online tutorials and agreed that it was a good value for the money.

Auto White Balance

White Balance after using WhiBal

tip: Open in seperate browser tabs and switch back and forth the see the difference.

Quite the difference indeed. I'm lucky in that I have a white-to-black gradient background that I can consistently shoot against. I may get the cards anyway, help clean up some of my shots.

 

[Tannin]

... to test out my macro lens.

OK, OK, what gives here? Have you been a naughty boy again Doug? I've told you about spending all the housekeeping money on photographic gear.

(Is anybody watching? Good, quick, tell me what you got!)

 

[Handruin]

Yes, I've been naughty (please don't send Tea fter me). I bought the 70-200mm F/2.8L IS and the 100mm macro F/2.8. I've also picked up a 50mm F/1.4 as a gift and the BG-E2 batter grip (with a second battery). The picture links above show some of the lenses have.

 

[Tannin]

I haven't seen Tea for quite a while Doug. Last news I got was a postcard from Thailand, smelling slightly of pineapple daquari. I think she intends to walk home from there, probably because she spent all her money on gin and other alcoholic delights. Given her navigation skills, she's probably somewhere not too far from JoJo's house by now, and wondering why it seems so cold.

Have you made much progress with the macro yet? I'm finding that getting good results with my 60mm macro isn't easy. A little fill flash helps. I must read up on the best methods, but so far I'm using manual exposure, usually a 250th at f/16, and letting the flash system figure out how hard to turn the light on. Just the built-in flash for now, I'll order a two head macro flash once I've mastered the basics. Next time I'm doing wildflowers, I think I'll try winding the flash compensation back a bit: it seems to over-expose about a half stop or maybe a full stop a lot of the time.

 

[Buck]

That's a pretty fast shutter speed Tony. What ISO speed are you simulating?

 

[Handruin]

I've made very little progress with the macro photos. I've used the lens more as a portait than for actual macro work...sad, I know. Lately the weather hasn't been that great to go out and get anything good for macro, but part of it is just me not willing.

I do agree, that the small amount of macro shots I have done have not been easy. The lighting required a tripod, and the one I have isn't very good for macro work. From what I've seen, a tripod is becoming an important tool for macro work.

I assume you've seen the price of the dual head macro flash? Last I checked it was $650 USD! The built-in flash only works so well for me with longer lenses. I find it leaves a shadow in some cases.