New 17" Monitor

timwhit

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My dad wants to get a new 17" monitor for his computer. He doesn't need anything too great, but it should be totally flat (FD). I don't care if it is a trinitron or a diamondtron, I can't tell the difference anyways.

So what do you guys reccomend for about $140-$170?
 

timwhit

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That price includes shipping....$10 UPS Ground. After I checked reseller ratings I am not going to trust them though. Maybe I will just get it from Newegg and pay $160 (w/shipping).
 

timwhit

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Hey Buck, since I am lazy could you tell me what refresh rate that monitor will run at in 1024x768? If you don't know I will go look it up, but since you sell them, I am guessing that you know...
 

CougTek

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While the 750s isn't bad, it isn't flat. The Samsung 755DF is though (don't touch the cheaper 753DF, it's not TCO'99 compliant probably because of its weak picture quality). The 755DF isn't very expensive either and I can certify that the CRT is of very good quality.

You'll never find a 17" Trinitron or Diamontron for less than 180U$ for sure.
 

timwhit

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$180 is too much money. What is the cheapest 17" Flat screen I can get? I don't care what shady manufacturer makes it, as long as it has a trinitron or diamondtron tube in it.

My dad won't be able to tell a difference anyways.
 

Tea

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Far as I know, there is no such thing as a cheap flat 17. Flatties all seem to cost about AU$400 or $450. I've stopped selling them, because for almost the same money you can buy a decent 19 inch - not flat, but who cares? Size really does matter. Look for something like a 19 inch Delta or Lite-On. Should cost you about US$200 to $250. Much better value for your money, and even you dad will be able to see the difference.
 

CougTek

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The cheapest flat (well, the front glass is completly flat, but the inner glass is very slightly curved, for most people it's flat) screen monitor you can get, at least on my lists, is the Samsung 753DF. It should cost around 170U$, but like I said above, I don't recommend it. There's also the puny NEC 90F (or something like this), but its tube has 0.28mm or 0.29mm dot pitch in the corners, resulting in blurry image at anything above 800x600. Then again, I don't recommend it.

Neither the NEC or Samsung have an aperture grill CRT (I don't think it exist below 180U$ for a 17", maybe not even below 200$). Both have special near-flat modified shadow-masks.

To be honest Timwhit, if a customer would come and ask me about a sub 180$ flat screen CRT, I would tell him that I simply refuse to sell that. It's too low grad for my standards. Below 180$, you're better with a curved screen with better electronics than with a sub-standard flat screen with puny electronics. If you find a flat screen 17" for less than 180U$, you won't serve your dad by buying it IMO.
 

Tea

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Hmmm.. Just got a call from my Targa rep. He must be reading this thread! Targa 17" flat is now $245x. That's pretty good. In fact, well worth considering. They are not a bad monitor. Made in Germany, decent picture quality. Dot pitich is about 0.25 or 0.26 I think. But I'd still go with a 19.
 

Mercutio

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The right thing to do for that money is to either step up to a low-grade 19" display or a really nice, nonflat 17". Something in a Mag or a Viewsonic, maybe. Flat is kinda nice but it's not that high on my list of monitor priorities.
 

timwhit

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I can get the Viewsonic E70f for $152 (+shipping). It is supposed to be flat and doesn't cost all that much. Anyone see anything wrong with this?

17" is a strech because of the amount of deskspace available, so there is no way that a 19" monitor would ever fit. I'll suggest it to him though.
 

CougTek

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I bought a Viewsonic E70 (not E70f) two years ago. It was for a secretary who used her computer some 15 hours/week. The picture was blurry and the colors were lavish at 1024x768. Only 800x600 and below was acceptable (and no more than acceptable). The E70 had a meager 110MHz bandwidth (if not 100MHz or even 90MHz) and poor electronics in general. The (curved) tube wasn't extraordinary either. Alll summed up : a bad purchase.

The new E70f should be more acceptable though. The dot pitch is ok at 0.25mm diagonal and the bandwidth is just enough to display 1024x768 (122MHz). It cannot be worst than its predecessor for sure. At 152U$, it is somewhat interesting, but be aware that Viewsonic's E series is nothing to write home about. There will be flaws in the image quality for sure and the controls are scant. Not recommended for regular use.

If you can't find another 30-50$ only...
 

Fushigi

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Wait for the next computer show in Orland Park (or take the drive to COD; I think there's a show there this Sunday) & pick up a used Compaq V70. 17" Trinitron screen, does 1280x1024, excellent picture quality, and should be under $100 .. maybe $70 or so. Or look for any other model that's around 2 years old from Compaq, IBM (Pxx series), Dell, NEC, or other known brand. These are normally business lease-returns and have been refurbed/cleaned up if needed. Mostly they've seen relatively light duty usage & should work for years to come.

Most dealers will also give you at least a 30 day warranty. Don't buy unless they do.

- Fushigi
 

NRG = mc²

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Steer clear of the Mitsubishi/NEC 17" flat they have. A friend has one and its cheap and nasty. Shadow mask with a useless power supply (very large variations in size and position when you maximise a white window and colour bleeding etc). It also feels a little cheaply built (low grade plastics). Avoid.
 

Prof.Wizard

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NRG = mc² said:
Steer clear of the Mitsubishi/NEC 17
:eek: I thought they were the best... :-?

I have a flat 17" NEC (MultiSync FE750) and I'm completely pleased.
 

NRG = mc²

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Not neccesarily that model you have - theres one in particular, a really cheap one, let me see if I can find it...

OK, found it. Model 75F 17" Pure Flat. $200 of junk.


I59323.jpg
 

James

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I'll just echo those others that have already said this :

Either spend a bit more money and get a better flat screen monitor, or buy a good curved screen one. This is something you or your dad are going to be looking at for years. It's simply not worth harming your eyes for the sake of $20-30 and/or a fixation on the aesthetics of the monitor. Don't think that it doesn't matter, because it really does - and it will be worse for your dad because he is older.
 

CougTek

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The G series has hit (G90f) and miss (GS790 and others).

The A series is, well...I'm glad you like yours ;-) I only saw their A70 and A90 and I wasn't much impressed. All Viewsonic's models ending with a 5 are usually enhanced versions (usually, better electronics) of their end-by-0 siblings. Depending on the definition you use, the A95f might be acceptable. Pretty much all modern 19" can display 800x600 correctly and even 1024x768 isn't too problematic. Above that, I wouldn't use a low-end model (the A and E series are Viewsonic's low-end models), at least not for anything involving text reading on a regular basis.

But I'm more sensitive to this than most people.
 

CougTek

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I browsed Viewsonic's site a bit and from the half dozen monitors I checked, apparently, none of the A and E series are compliant with TCO'99 or any TCO at all. Only MPR II in case of the A serie monitors I checked. MPR II is so basic that I bet the old 15+ years T.V. I changed 2 years ago could still pass it.

I see TCO compliance as important because it's a kind of warranty that your monitor has decent image quality and tolerable electro-magnetic emissions. Viewsonic has always been prone to show that their maintream and higher-end models complied to TCO'92/95/99. The lack of TCO logo in the spec sheet of the A and E series means that either the monitors failed to respect the norm or that Viewsonic simply didn't bother to try to pass the test because they omit to apply strict enough measures (for cost savings) on the design and production lines of these monitors in order to meet the requierement of TCO and therefore, knew their products would pass the test.

I would look elsewhere, but this is just me.
 

e_dawg

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I'll say this: CougTek knows what he's talking about. Not too many people look for the dot clock to check for the theoretical video bandwidth (and therefore video amplifier quality), but it is one of a few good specs to keep an eye on when comparing monitors on paper.

Here are some candidates that I would recommend first:

Samsung 755DF

Viewsonic E75f

Here are some alternatives that would be fine as long as you don't intend to run it at anything higher than 1024x768 @ 75 Hz:

LG 775FT

Samsung 753DF

Viewsonic E70f
 

e_dawg

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Prof.Wizard said:
NRG = mc² said:
Steer clear of the Mitsubishi/NEC 17
:eek: I thought they were the best... :-?

I have a flat 17" NEC (MultiSync FE750) and I'm completely pleased.

Great monitor. So is the Viewsonic PF770 and Mitsubishi and iiYama monitors based on the same flat 0.25-0.27 mm variable stripe pitch DiamondTron aperture grille tube. I have the Samsung 900NF, which is the same as the NEC FE950 and Viewsonic PF790.
 

James

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Is there a site somewhere that lists the tubes and the brand names/models that sell them? Often it seems like you could pay less and get a less famous brand name, yet get exactly the same actual monitor tube.
 

e_dawg

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Fortunately, I saved this from before the big DB crash at SR. I wrote this back in spring of 2001, so it's a bit out of date, but I guess you could use this as a starting point:

There are only a few manufacturers of CRT's these days, and most of them come from the big 3 of Hitachi, Mitsubishi, and Sony. Many models of monitors use the same tube -- therefore, many of them are pretty much the same quality, as it's the picture tube that is the main factor in picture quality. As far as I'm concerned, get whichever monitor that happens to be the cheapest out of the group that uses the same tube. [* - please see addendum for a counterpoint]

1. The Mitsubishi DiamondPro 900u, DiamondPlus 91, NEC FP950 and FE950, Samsung SyncMaster 900NF, iiYama VisionMaster Pro i90a, 450 and 451, ViewSonic A95f, PF77, PF790, and PF795, Acer P911, and Princeton AGF900 all use the same Mitsubishi DiamondTron NF 0.25-0.27 mm stripe pitch flat aperture grill CRT.

2. The Sony CPD-E400 and G400, Dell UltraScan P991, HP P910, Priceton AGF900, KDS AV-195TF, Nokia 446 Pro, CTX PR960F, Mag 810FD, ADI Microscan G910, EIZO T761, and Compaq P900 all use Sony's FD Trinitron 0.24-0.25 mm stripe pitch flat aperture grill CRT.

3. The LG StudioWorks 995E, Cornerstone p1401, Mag Innovision XJ810 and 800v, Eizo F730, and Hitachi CM751, 752, 753, and 715, and others all use Hitachi's 0.26 mm (.22 mm horizontal) dot pitch invar shadow mask FST CRT.

Yes, there are many factors that can influence the picture quality, like video amplifier quality, and regulation of the monitor's power supply, among other things, but one variable I think people don't realize is the natural variance between two different monitors of the same brand and model. I don't see how PC magazines can rate monitors so differently when they're based on the same picture tube. CNet, PC Magazine / ZDNet, and PC World are the worst offenders. They only test one sample (or rarely, two if you're really lucky) against each other and have the gall to assign ratings and rank the monitors in precise order as if monitors had little to no quality variance as most other computer components. That is simply not the case.

The only way to really be sure that the monitor looks good is to see it for yourself at high resolution settings with a variety of text and applications to judge the quality. If that can be done in the store, I would be surprised, because they usually have a video wall where all the monitors are hooked up to a poor quality signal splitter and run at low resolutions with graphics that really are not that hard to display and make most monitors look good. The best is to buy it from a store that has a good return policy. If you want to save money and don't mind "rolling the dice", you can save a lot of money ordering online from places that offer free shipping like onvia.com.

I have done a review of the Samsung SyncMaster 900NF and NEC MultiSync FE950 on epinions.com if you want to take a look at them. Just a disclaimer, I get paid a few cents every time people look at them, so don't look at them if you feel I'm spamming and scamming (I personally hate people insidiously posting links to their banner filled webpages or trying to get people to sign up for alladvantage.com or something by posting in newsgroups or forums, so I'm letting you know up front. I usually don't do this sort of thing, but I'll make an exception in this case because those reviews might be useful here...)

[* - Addendum, July 2002: electronics like video amplifier quality and bandwidth and screen power regulation should not be forgotten, either, but a quick look at the "dot clock" or pixel frequency spec measured in MHz should give you an idea of the theoretical video bandwidth of the amplifiers. If you trust this sort of measurement, the higher the better, as the concept is if the monitor can handle a maximum of 235 MHz, when you run it at 160 MHz, it should be perfectly clear given the wide safety margin]
 

e_dawg

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Note that I focussed only on 19" monitors in that previous post, but you can apply the same logic to many of the 17" monitors as well by incrementing (decrementing?) by a few model numbers. Unfortunately, 17" monitors are replacing 15" monitors as the budget models, so many manufacturers and stores aren't carrying the high quality 17-inchers that will run rock solid at the highest resolutions.

There is a bit of discussion on monitors at SR in Piyono's Budget box thread, starting here as well, although half of it is a rehash of what I wrote above.
 

James

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Thanks. Considering the hostility shown here and at SR towards some of the later Hitachi monitors, it's interesting to see the "good" ones and the "bad" ones are all based on exactly the same tube.
 

e_dawg

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Interesting indeed. Part of the differences are due to the electronics that go into the monitor, like video amplifiers, power supplies, etc., part of it is naturally high variability in quality between units, part of it is the video card used to drive these monitors, and part of it is the subjectivity that goes along with any evaluation.

If you are familiar with ANOVA, you could say that the SSE is rather large and the r-squared is not that high when talking about the average actual quality of all units of a particular model vs. the perceived quality of any given unit of a particular model.
 

e_dawg

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This is somewhat related to the evaluation of various printers. Printers are often based on the exact same print engine (lasers) or printhead design (inkjets).

For example, the PhotoSmart P1000 and P1100 came out several years ago with HP's PhotoRet III technology and that particular printhead design. They have been using it ever since in all the DeskJet 900 series models. The moral of the story is that you could have bought a DeskJet 930 model for less than half of the price of the PhotoSmart P1100 and still had the same photo quality and only a minor difference in the printing speed. Similarly, all the DeskJet 800 series use the same printhead design. And yet, you see magazines like PC World and c|net rating each 800 series printer differently from each other and each 900 series printer differently from each other in terms of print quality.
 
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