Not your Father's Cadillac

e_dawg

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Pradeep said:
I still can't figure out how insurance companies in the US can get away with basing their premiums on credit scores. What does how you pay your bills have anything to do with your driving abilities?

I hear they are using grades now to adjust insurance premiums for young drivers. Apparently, if your average is <70%, you can pay up to 50% higher premiums when you're 16. The correlation is that students who get high marks are said to be more responsible in general than student who get low marks. I seem to remember that was somewhat true in high school. You had more of those boisterous jocks who drank, smoke, failed courses, and raced around than those nerdy types...
 

mubs

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Yeah. Soon they'll link it to your underwear size, how much hair you have on your head, how big your nose is, and how much dental work you have done in a year and how much toilet paper you buy weekly.

Don't misunderstand me; my sarcasm is directed at the insurance industry. They'll do anything that "justifies" a hike. IMO, all types of insurance should be run as non-profit entities instead of organizations that specialize in gouging.

And Honold, I am not a communist. Far from it. Let free enterprise reign supreme. Within limits.
 

CougTek

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Stereodude said:
Ahhh... the sounds of ignorance.
That was totally uncalled, especially since my post wasn't in any way addressed to you. And somehow offensive since it comes from someone who's probably just as clueless as I am about cars, as demonstrated below :

Stereodude said:
A 2.0L I4 making 400HP will use about the same amount of fuel as a 5.7L V-8 making 400HP.
Ahhh... the sounds of a nerd wanna-be.

I won't be full of love for you in the nearby future.
 

e_dawg

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Coug,

I think you should break a peripheral in Stereo's name ;)

mubs,

You know, what you proposed may not be too far off. They are linking risk-taking behaviour to specific genes, and you can bet they will be lobbying to test clients' DNA before they set their premiums. Baldness could also be related to levels of testosterone (which is also correlated with aggressiveness and possibly risk-taking behaviour)...

Genomics has opened up a whole new can of worms into genetically linke behavioural traits analysis. It's not going to be pretty...
 

honold

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my gf is getting a masters in genetic epedemiology, so she has conversations about this sort of thing a lot.

she said it's going to be a long, long time before attitude-related things are going to be predictable. she also said the pulse seems to be with health insurance that the gotchas will continue to be pre-existing conditions (e.g. 'i have cancer, will you insure me?') and choice-based problems (e.g. 'i smoke' or 'the only things i can do well are sleeping and eating'). having a 90% likelihood to develop cancer isn't yet considered grounds for denial, since they've shown quite a profit despite it in our 'random' situation now.

can you imagine what a huge uproar there will be on all sides if certain negative traits are actually determinable, and attributable to race or gender? woof.
 

Stereodude

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CougTek said:
That was totally uncalled, especially since my post wasn't in any way addressed to you. And somehow offensive since it comes from someone who's probably just as clueless as I am about cars, as demonstrated below :

Stereodude said:
A 2.0L I4 making 400HP will use about the same amount of fuel as a 5.7L V-8 making 400HP.
Ahhh... the sounds of a nerd wanna-be.
But that's just it Mr. Tek. An engine is an airpump. Power is all about burning fuel and air. If they're both making 400HP they've using equivalent amounts of fuel. It's thermodynamics and physics.

Judging from your comments apparently you didn't pay much attention in those two classes if you don't understand what I said. Compare the fuel economy of say a Misubishi Lancer Evolution VIII (2.0L Turbo inline 4) to late model Corvette (5.7L V-8) and it might start to sink in.

Stereodude
 

jtr1962

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It seems clear that more than a few people here could use some lessons on exactly what affects fuel economy. For starters, engine displacement certainly has some effect due to the reasons Clocker mentioned, and also the fact that you're lugging around more weight. However, it does not have as great an affect compared to other factors of vehicle design. To a first approximation, it takes a given fuel burn rate to develop a certain amount of power. Burning at higher tempertatures is more efficient, but all car engines are more or less similar in that regard. Some tweaks can make one engine more efficient over another, but I would estimate the differences are less than 25%. Good economy must start with the design of the vehicle, and here I must digress.

OK class, welcome to vehicle dynamics 101. All terrestrial vehicles require power to maintain a certain velocity due to drag. This drag, apart from any mechanical losses in the engine and drive train, has two components-rolling friction and aerodynamic friction. Static(zero velocity) rolling friction is equal to the rolling coefficient times the vehicle weight. Typical rolling coefficients are 0.015 for SUV tires, 0.01 for car tires, 0.007 for bus and truck tires, 0.003 for high-pressure bicycle tires, and 0.001 for steel wheel on steel rail(now you know one reason I like trains). Therefore, a 3000 pound car might have 30 pounds of rolling resistance while an 8000 pound SUV might have 120 pounds. There are additional rolling resistance losses as speed increases due to the flexing of the rubber. Typically, these additional losses are something like 0.01*static rolling friction*speed, so at 70 MPH the total rolling friction of the 3000 pound car is 30 pounds(static) + 21 pounds(dynamic), for a total of 51 pounds. While tire drag is significant(51 lbs at 70 MPH is 9.5 HP), it pales in comparison to aerodynamic drag, especially as speed increases. Aerodynamic drag is 0.0024*frontal area*drag coefficient*speed². Note the dependence on the square of velocity. Also note that when you convert drag to horsepower by multiplying by speed again, you find that the power required to overcome aerodynamic drag increases with the cube of the velocity. Yes folks, it takes 8 times as much power to break the wind at 120 mph than it does at 60 mph. Take our example of the 3000 pound car. Typical values might be a frontal area of 30 ft² and a drag coefficient of 0.3. Therefore, the aero drag is 0.0024*30*0.3*speed². At 70 MPH this is 106 pounds, or more than double the rolling friction. In total the car engine must exert a force of 106 + 51, or 157 pounds to maintain 70 MPH. In horsepower this is 157*70/375, or 29.3 HP. Now let's do the SUV. The rolling drag at 70 MPH is 120(static) + 84(dynamic), or 204 pounds. The aero drag is 0.0024*45*0.6*70², or 318 pounds(I used 45 ft² and 0.6 for frontal area and drag coefficient, respectively). Total horsepower to maintain 70 MPH is 522*70/375 or 97 HP. Now you know one reason I hate SUVs. There design is inherently abysmally inefficient. If only people who needed off-road or towing capability owned them, that would be fine, but they never should have been allowed to become as ubiquitous as they are.

Now on to part two. Vehicle drag is only one part of fuel consumption. Besides maintaining velocity, vehicles needs to change speeds. A vehicle moving at a given velocity has a kinetic energy proportional to the speed squared. For example, the 3000 pound car at 70 MPH has a kinetic energy of 0.5MV², or 667,841 joules(note the change to metric here). One horsepower is 746 watts, or 746 joules/sec. To accelerate the 3000 pound car to 70 MPH in 20 seconds requires 667,841/20 or 33392 joules/sec, which is 44.8 HP. Additionally, more power must be supplied to overcome the drag, so a more realistic total might be 65 HP assuming that 100% of the engine power reaches the wheels. Want to accelerate faster? You need more power. Regardless of the rate of acceleration, it takes a certain amount of energy to get back up to speed after stopping due to this kinetic energy. This is why heavy vehicles fare much worse under stop and go conditions with current designs. I qualified this last point because it is possible to recover this kinetic energy and use it to get back up to speed unlike the power to overcome vehicle drag which is lost forever. Currently, vehicle designers are for the most part choosing to ignore this fact even as they are producing heavy vehicles that would stand to benefit a great deal from it economy-wise. Commuter and subway systems have been using regenerative braking, as it is called, for years. The technology exists and should be taken advantage of.

As should be clear now in order to maximize fuel economy you need to reduce drag and recover kinetic energy. The first is quite simple and can be designed into vehicles by using low rolling resistance tires, reducing the frontal area to the bare minimum, decreasing the drag coefficient, and reducing weight(not as important as the other three). For our 3000 pound sedan you might be able to get frontal area down to 25 ft². Drag coefficient in a drivable vehicle can get down to about 0.12. Anything less requires impractical needle nose designs 50 feet long. Rolling coefficient of about 0.006 is also realistic. Put everything together and you now need only 15.7 HP instead of 29.3 HP to do 70 MPH without even reducing the weight. Throw in some weight reduction(to 2000 pounds) and you only need 13.8 HP. Bingo, your efficiency goes up by about a factor of two just by changing tires and sheet metal. Want to do even better? Try experimenting with laminar flow. A human powered vehicle using laminar flow actually covered a few miles at speeds of over 80 MPH(it officially went through the speed traps at about 73 MPH because the rider accelerated too soon and "burned out" before the timing trap). Note that a human can generate maybe 1 HP for this period of time. Extrapolating, it might be possible to make a drivable 4-passenger vehicle that only needs 5 HP to maintain 70 MPH using laminar flow.

The second way to increase efficiency is to recover your kinetic energy and reuse it rather than throwing it away heating brake shoes. You can recover about 80 to 90% with current designs. Besides saving wear and tear, such an energy storage system is also beneficial if you want to make a high-performance vehicle. No need any more for monster 400 HP engines when all you really need is an energy storage system that can deliver maybe a million joules in as short a time as possible. It makes little sense lugging around the extra weight and having additional friction losses when most of the time the engine will only be making less than 50 HP. Doing this you can have small engine running at a constant speed. Some power will be used to propel the vehicle, and the balance will recharge the energy storage system. The engine only needs to be big enough to supply the average power needed, not the maximum. Such a system is cumbersome if done mechanically, so the best way is to do away with the mechanical link between the engine and wheels. Put electric motors on all four wheels and control each independently to allow maximum power without slipping. If the energy storage system can deliver power fast enough and store enough energy, it should be possible to accelerate right at the limit of adhesion all the way to the vehicle's maximum speed, at which point the engine will supply 100% of the power needed to maintain speed. Today's mechanical transmissions barely deliver half the engine's peak power to the wheels on average when accelerating due to the engine being out of peak HP speed most of the time. With electric motors, you get nearly 100% to the wheels all the time and no need to bother with shifting. For instance, the Cadillac in this thread has 400 HP. With an electric motor system you could deliver 90% of this, or 360 HP, to the wheels when accelerating. Assuming the car weighs 4000 pounds with driver, this means a 0 to 60 time of 2.44 seconds(probably a bit more because adhesion limits power at lower speeds). Naturally, with my system you don't need a 400 HP engine at all, just a 50 HP one. The energy storage system takes care of the bursts. Besides all these advantages, a car with such a transmission can be easily upgraded to run on batteries or fuel cells once they become available whereas a conventional car would require more cost to retrofit for zero-emission operation.

Efficiency should be designed into all vehicles, especially expensive high performance ones. There are many precedents where a user pays a premium(i.e. ceramic tile, compact fluorescent bulbs, new windows) to buy something with the thought of saving money down the road. Cars should be no different. Just because a person can afford $30,000 for a vehicle doesn't mean he/she enjoys getting 15 mpg when the same vehicle can get 75 mpg without sacrificing one bit of performance. The difference over the life of the car(250,000 miles) is about 13,300 gallons of fuel which is about equal to the purchase price of the car at current prices. Certainly nothing to sneeze at even if you don't care about choking pedestrians with your exhaust.
 

e_dawg

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Good post, jtr. Some counterpoints:

It might be nice to have more efficient cars, but it will be very costly to implement the technologies you proposed. Nobody is going to pay through the nose up-front to save a bit long term. It is a fundamental principle of finance and human behaviour (time value of money) that a dollar saved today is worth two dollars saved tomorrow. Even if the amount of gas you save (using extremely optimistic estimates) is equal in value to the purchase price of the car, it will have taken, what, 15 years of driving (250,000 miles) to accumulate such savings. If you take 2% inflation and a typical discount rate of 6% into account, your real savings is only maybe ~30% of the purchase price of the car. However, what are the chances that you will be paying only 30% more for this super efficient car? Slim to none, I'd say. Bottom line, you don't come close to recouping your initial up-front premium.
 

Howell

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e_dawg said:
Good post, jtr. Some counterpoints:

It might be nice to have more efficient cars, but it will be very costly to implement the technologies you proposed. Nobody is going to pay through the nose up-front to save a bit long term. It is a fundamental principle of finance and human behaviour (time value of money) that a dollar saved today is worth two dollars saved tomorrow. Even if the amount of gas you save (using extremely optimistic estimates) is equal in value to the purchase price of the car, it will have taken, what, 15 years of driving (250,000 miles) to accumulate such savings. If you take 2% inflation and a typical discount rate of 6% into account, your real savings is only maybe ~30% of the purchase price of the car. However, what are the chances that you will be paying only 30% more for this super efficient car? Slim to none, I'd say. Bottom line, you don't come close to recouping your initial up-front premium.

Even this assessment is assuming a stable average price in gas over the 15 year period.
 

Tea

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Laminar flow in a road car?! You are dreaming, JTR. It's hard enough to achieve in an airliner. You know what shape laminar flow vechicles are? Drive ... er ... I mean cycle ... down to the nearest river and have a gander at a rowing eight.
 

Stereodude

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Tea said:
Laminar flow in a road car?! You are dreaming, JTR. It's hard enough to achieve in an airliner. You know what shape laminar flow vechicles are? Drive ... er ... I mean cycle ... down to the nearest river and have a gander at a rowing eight.
You're pretty smart for a primate Tea.

Stereodude
 

Howell

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Wlecome back, Joe.

jtr1962 said:
As should be clear now in order to maximize fuel economy you need to reduce drag and recover kinetic energy. The first is quite simple and can be designed into vehicles by using low rolling resistance tires, reducing the frontal area to the bare minimum, decreasing the drag coefficient, and reducing weight(not as important as the other three).

I've been considering low rolling resistance tires recently. I'm think the low friction coefficient benificial to reducing the rolling resistance while traveling would be detrimental under braking. I'm not aware of any uni-directionally low rolling resistance tires, or whatever they would be called.
 

Pradeep

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Don't take this the wrong way jtr but have you driven a car? I know you don't have a drivers license, just wondering about your experiences.
 

jtr1962

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e_dawg said:
Good post, jtr. Some counterpoints:

It might be nice to have more efficient cars, but it will be very costly to implement the technologies you proposed. Nobody is going to pay through the nose up-front to save a bit long term.

What makes you think a car like I proposed is more expensive? Look how cheaply something like a hard drive has been made through mass production. Electric motors are cheaper than a complex mechanical transmission. Add in a larger battery for energy storage and a few large capacitors for the acceleration bursts. The rest is just electronics. I highly doubt anything I propose would cost more than a current car to make.

Assuming it does cost, which I doubt, you need to give people incentives to buy such cars. We should start with a gas tax of a few dollars per gallon for no other reason than to get drivers to pay the true cost of the damage that burning fossil fuels causes(cancer, asthma, acid rain, possibly global warming). This should be done regardless since it's only fair. This suddenly makes the payback period less. Add in rebates from the government for buying more fuel efficient cars and you have further incentive. You're assuming fossil fuels will remain low in price and every scenario I've read says that won't happen. It's predicted within 20 years most reserves will start to run out, or at least be harder to get to. Therefore, the price will only go up. I'm guessing in 10 years $5 a gallon gas prices(without any taxes) will be the norm. Fossil fuels certainly won't go down or stay the same in price since the supply will drop just as demand sharply increases when large nations like China and India industrialize. In other words, the era of cheap gasoline in just about over with. We need to stop burning this junk sooner or later, so best we prepare for it now while we can make the transition in a fairly orderly manner.
 

jtr1962

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Howell said:
Wlecome back, Joe.
I've been considering low rolling resistance tires recently. I'm think the low friction coefficient benificial to reducing the rolling resistance while traveling would be detrimental under braking. I'm not aware of any uni-directionally low rolling resistance tires, or whatever they would be called.

It depends on the rubber compound. The low rolling resistance(at least for bike tires) is due to a higher inflation pressure. Car tires might also use rubber that flexes less. I wouldn't worry about it too much since even crappy tires have an adhesion coefficent of something like 0.7. This stops you from 60 mph in about 175 feet if you know what you're doing. You might need to drive a little less aggressively if you're used to stickier tires but I personally don't see any problems. I'm not sure if current low-resistance tires are still unidirectional or not. I remember the old ones were.
 

jtr1962

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Pradeep said:
Don't take this the wrong way jtr but have you driven a car? I know you don't have a drivers license, just wondering about your experiences.

On a few occasions. I had my learner's permit shortly after I graduated college but nobody I knew had the time to take me out to practice so it expired before I could take the driver's test. After seeing people's sloppy driving habits, traffic congestion, and high insurance costs, I concluded that it just wasn't worthwhile to have a license or car in NYC. I think something like 50% of the population over 18 doesn't have a license either, so I'm not alone. The few times a year I need a lift my brother or parents are happy to oblige. BTW, my brother's been driving since he was 16 and cars are his whole life. He has a '66 Toronado, '70 Continental, '61 T-bird convertible, '67 T-bird, and '97 Mark VII . He's also had more "parts" cars than I can keep track of.

Prior to driving I already had thousands of miles in traffic conditions on my bicycle. Since there's actually a lot more you need to watch out for on a bike(especially in NYC), learning to drive for me would be mainly getting the feel of the car. I already know what to look for, and I only had one collision with a car in over 55,000 miles of cycling. A taxi rear-ended me on Flushing Main St. while I was making a left. Not my fault. I was waiting for traffic to clear so I could turn and he was impatient and gunned it. Fortunately, I wasn't hurt although my rear rim was shot. The few other times I've fallen off the bike were due to potholes and the occasional car door, although it's been about 6 or 7 years since I've had an accident of any kind. My worst spill was when I hit a pothole going downhill at 37 mph. The front rim bent like hell and I slid on the ground about 100 feet. Outside of a skinned knee and elbow, I was fine but I wouldn't want to repeat the experience.
 

Howell

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jtr1962 said:
Howell said:
Wlecome back, Joe.
I've been considering low rolling resistance tires recently. I'm think the low friction coefficient benificial to reducing the rolling resistance while traveling would be detrimental under braking. I'm not aware of any uni-directionally low rolling resistance tires, or whatever they would be called.

It depends on the rubber compound. The low rolling resistance(at least for bike tires) is due to a higher inflation pressure. Car tires might also use rubber that flexes less. I wouldn't worry about it too much since even crappy tires have an adhesion coefficent of something like 0.7. This stops you from 60 mph in about 175 feet if you know what you're doing. You might need to drive a little less aggressively if you're used to stickier tires but I personally don't see any problems. I'm not sure if current low-resistance tires are still unidirectional or not. I remember the old ones were.

I don't consider agressive driving appropriate in most circumstances but you need to have equipment with the capability for emergency maneuvers. Seemingly everything from small children to deer like to run out in front of cars.

Higher inflation pressure just reduces the contact patch with the road. This is acceptable for your bike because the vehicle/rider combination is so lightweight. There is a difference between 23cm tires and 28cm tires in both acceleration and deceleration.

The Honda Insight, arguably the most economical car on the road, uses low rolling resistance tires. For this vehicle, Car & Driver reported a 70-0 mph (117-0 km/h) braking distance of 181 ft (55m). MotorWeek reported a 60-0 mph average of 120 feet. Car & Driver's 300 ft diameter skid pad tests reported 0.77g.

And you know, I don't think that is too bad. It's not spectacular but it is similar to other vehicles. "Virtually all current production vehicles' published road braking performance tests indicate stopping distances from 60 mph that are typically 120 to 140 feet", according to a website I found.
 

jtr1962

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Howell said:
Higher inflation pressure just reduces the contact patch with the road. This is acceptable for your bike because the vehicle/rider combination is so lightweight. There is a difference between 23cm tires and 28cm tires in both acceleration and deceleration.

You might be right about this. Truthfully I've never noticed, but then I usually don't ride right on the limits of adhesion. As for braking, as you're aware the rear wheel locks up quite easily, so maybe I'll do some tests with different tires just for kicks. Sliding isn't a problem with the front wheel however. Every bike I've ever ridden will throw you over the handlebars before the front wheel locks up, assuming of course that the front brake exerts enough force(mine currently doesn't even come close). On the acceleration end, unless you have really low gearing or very icy conditions, it's pretty much impossible to break the rear tire loose. I know I can't on my bike(700c wheels, 53-42 front, 12-13-14-15-17-20-23 rear) except on glare ice even though I can manage 0-20 mph in 4 seconds and 0-30 in about 10 when I'm feeling good. Obviously, this isn't even pushing the tire adhesion-wise. I do push my tires in turns though, especially when I make hard rights at something like 25 mph. That's probably pushing about 1 g lateral acceleration. Unfortunately, bikes aren't as forgiving as cars once you exceed the tires' capabilities so I'm not inclined to do skidpad tests.

BTW, maybe we should start a cycling forum in addition to a car forum. ;)

The Honda Insight, arguably the most economical car on the road, uses low rolling resistance tires. For this vehicle, Car & Driver reported a 70-0 mph (117-0 km/h) braking distance of 181 ft (55m). MotorWeek reported a 60-0 mph average of 120 feet. Car & Driver's 300 ft diameter skid pad tests reported 0.77g.

Pretty damned good if you ask me. In fact, I'm impressed considering it's a vehicle designed purely for fuel economy. Regardless of how good a car's stopping or turning ability, there will be times something darts out in front of you that you just can't avoid. My sister hit a deer a few years ago. She wasn't hurt but ever since she drives really slow on the street where it happened. I don't know what became of the deer however. I think it may have decided to sue her. :mrgrn:
 

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jtr1962 said:
What makes you think a car like I proposed is more expensive? Look how cheaply something like a hard drive has been made through mass production.

Well that's just it: until these things become widely accepted and not just limited to a niche segment, there will not be enough economies of scale to produce them cheaply enough to compete with your truly mass produced gasoline units.

Assuming it does cost, which I doubt, you need to give people incentives to buy such cars. We should start with a gas tax ... Add in rebates from the government...

Ah, yes. We've had this issue debated before on SR ;) There already are multiple gas-related taxes in effect at the pump, when the car is produced (CAFE), and when you purchase your vehicle (gas guzzler tax), but they are obviously not significant enough judging by the still increasing sales numbers of SUV's. I would also like to see higher gas taxes, because it is demand, after all, that drives production and design.

You're assuming fossil fuels will remain low in price and every scenario I've read says that won't happen.

Good point.

We need to stop burning this junk sooner or later, so best we prepare for it now while we can make the transition in a fairly orderly manner.

I agree, but you know the majority of the people don't care until the consequences are staring them in the face. That's human nature. If smokers developed serious health problems from their first pack, there would be a lot fewer smokers out there. But most of them are fine for 20-30 years before they develop major health problems. Only when they are diagnosed with lung cancer do they quit. Saying that gas is going to run out in 20 years just means that we will be sitting on our asses for 15 years! :)
 

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jtr1962 said:
BTW, maybe we should start a cycling forum in addition to a car forum. ;)

No, please, I am still traumatized by my stint on the cycling team in high school. The first day of practice, it's about 8 C (46 F), dark, wind was 40 km/h, gusting to 55 (25-33 mph), and was about to rain. Our route was about 25 km (15 mi). Going against the wind head-on for the first half of the trip (on my first day, mind you, never having cycled in a year or more) was sheer hell. It seemed like there were stretches where I wasn't even moving. It took over an hour to cycle the first 10 km or so. Fortunately, the way back was much easier with the wind at my back most of the time. And I just made it back in the nick of time. About a minute before I reached the school, the skies opened up and it started to pour. I was soaked by the time I got back inside, but at least it was only for a minute. Otherwise, it would have been the worst 1.5 hours of my life.
 

jtr1962

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Yes e_dawg, I know the feeling. Cycling is great 95% of the time but on those miserable days like you described, forget about it. I remember one ride I took with my brother to the Green Acres Mall about 18 or 19 years ago. It's about a 40 mile round trip from where I am. Going there with a tailwind was great but I knew we would pay for it on the way back. The 20 miles back took us over two hours fighting a 30+ mph wind most of the way, and a few hills as well(wind and hills are a truly horrible combination). Thankfully it wasn't really cold or you could have added numb fingers to the list of problems we encountered. I was half expecting one of us to get a flat to end the day on a final miserable note, but fortunately it didn't happen. In any case it was the worst 20 miles I've ever ridden, and I think I let my bike sit for about a week after that. Averaging less than 10 mph and still being exhausted was not a good feeling.

The second worst ride was getting a flat about 7 miles from home and having to walk all the way back. Walking 7 miles dragging along a bike is most definitely not a pleasant way to spend an evening.

Of course there are those times when weather works to your advantage. I rode one day when there was a nice steady wind of at least 30 mph. I fought the wind a few miles just to ride home with it at my back. My brother did the same thing later as well. It was a great feeling doing 45 mph same as all the cars on that street. Another time I hit the jackpot with a similar tailwind and a nice hill. I pretty much reached my maximum RPM in top gear, glanced down momentarily at the speedometer(it said 65 mph), and then suddenly noticed a sharp bend in the road coming up really fast with a 25 mph warning sign. I was barely able to slow down enough to make the turn at something like 40 mph. BTW, this was all on a city street with a speed limit of 30 mph. :mrgrn: That was the only time I was sure I went over 60 although there was another time when I was drafting a tour bus and may have also broken the mile a minute barrier. I remember the speedo said 58 but after that I was too busy concentrating on what I was doing(following 2 feet behind the bus but making sure not to crash into it) to check again. It did feel like I picked up a few more mph but I wasn't sure. Only a handful of times I went over 50 as well since the proper conditions rarely come together at once(nice hill, no traffic or traffic lights, a nice tailwind).
 

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jtr1962 said:
you need to give people incentives to buy such cars. We should start with a gas tax of a few dollars per gallon for no other reason than to get drivers to pay the true cost of the damage that burning fossil fuels causes(cancer, asthma, acid rain, possibly global warming).

Mate, if you thinj global climate change is just a possibility", then you have a serious problem. Slip over here for a few days and I'll walk you round and I'll show you what it's doing. There is no "possibly" about it. It's a solid sute-thing fact.

But that's not the point I wanted to make. I wanted to say that if we want to charge drivers the true cost of the fossil fuel they are burning, then a few cents a gallon is nowhere near enough.

No matter: your key point remains valid. Taxing fuel is far and away the best way to achieve results. It's a win-win proposition:

* For the environment, it reduces pollution and fossil fuel usage.

* For the economy, (US, Australian, UK, in fact everywhere) it improves the balance of payments. Less money flowing out of the country to Saudi Arabia (or anywhere else) = less nation debt = healthier economy

* For Detroit: gradually increasing fuel prices = more sales as people buy more efficent cars

* For motorists: cleaner air, less congestion (see below for the reasons), and no massive cost increase - quite possibly a decrease, as once the taxes start to bite and more efficient cars become available, anyone who buys one winds up paying twice as much per gallon but only using half as much.

* For city planners: smaller cars take up less road space and need smaller parking bays. Smaller cars do less damage to road surfaces and this saves money too. With fuel more expensive, there is a good incentive to build/improve mass transit.

* For the government: taxing petroleum provides revenue, masses of revenue, ad it's revenue that unlike almost all other revenue, is not hurting anyone - indeed, it's doing a power of good. From a government's point of view, it's damn near "free money". This revenue can be used to do public works, or to reduce taxes. Either way, the more of it there is, the better it is for everyone.

The key thing is that the tax increase needs to be small and it needs to be steady. A single massive increase only causes a huge economic disruption and achieves little. You need to provide an immediate kick-start - say, a 5% or 10% tax on petroluem (plus whatever taxes already exist, of course), but no more than this - and you announce that there is going to be another 2.5% increase on 1st January next year. And every year you add another 2.5%. So you announce now that although it's only going up by a little bit today, in the longer term it's going to keep going up, little by little every year. So if you are thinking about buying a new car, or you are thinking about drawing up the plans for your 2009 model, you can see right away that a more efficient one is the way to go.

Given that policy, you don't need to do anything else: the market does it all for you. And the market wil do it more efficiently than any government ever can. We don't have to worry about picking the best technologies to save fuel - Detroit will bust a gut doing that for us, and the millions of car buyers across the world will reward the companies in Detroit that do it the best by buying their products. That's how markets work. That's what markets are.

Last point: how is it that "distorting the market" by adding an artificial tax can do all this good? Are distorted markets the very thing that is wrong with out economies? My word they are! And the biggest single distortion in the world market today is the gross undervaluation of non-renewable resources. So we ain't introducing a distortion, we are correcting a distortion.
 
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