nVidia may have "issues"

[Mercutio]

The Inq is reporting that nVidia may have a chip level defect on very common G84 and G86 GPUs.

Basically, and this is no surprise to yours truly, the chips are all destined for a short, overheated life after which they will die.

The G84 and G86 are found in GF8x00 cards that aren't 8200s or 8800s, integrated on many desktop motherboards, on mid-range Quadra products and on an enormous number of notebooks with discrete nVidia-based graphics, including many Dell, Apple, HP and Lenovo products.

Several vendors are pushing out "fixes" which basically cause the speed-controlled GPU fans on their products to just run full blast all the time; suggestions have been made that this is an attempt to get affected products to simply die later and therefore possibly outside the warranty period.

nVidia's quarterly stock report mentions a write-off that is very probably related to these bad parts. Customers (which is to say, OEMs using the parts, not end-users, since nVidia doesn't directly make cards or motherboards) will be given a payout.

Needless to say this is all completely hilarious to me.

 

[ddrueding]

I actually read that the Inq was predicting bankruptcy for nVidia. That wouldn't be good for anybody (except Intel).

 

[Stereodude]

Supposedly it's only the mobile parts.

 

[ddrueding]

Supposedly it's only the mobile parts.

What I read said that the mobile parts were failing first because they thermally cycled more often and had less competent cooling solutions. That just means the desktop boards will take longer to fail. If it is long enough to exceed the average lifespan, than that is fine too.

 

[P5-133XL]

I actually read that the Inq was predicting bankruptcy for nVidia. That wouldn't be good for anybody (except Intel).

It will be good for AMD/ATI. A company sorely in need of lots of very good news.

It will also be good news for the 3rd party warrantee repair sub-contractors.

 

[Mercutio]

Setting aside schadenfreude, this really, deeply sucks for people with affected notebooks. I replace my hardware at a greatly accelerated pace, but I wouldn't want a customer or a student to have a computer that has a built-in death sentence.

Desktops and graphics cards I don't care so much about. At least you can replace the parts in those. But does anyone think Dell/HP/Sony/Lenovo/Apple are going to do the right thing and recall the defective notebooks?

 

[Stereodude]

But does anyone think Dell/HP/Sony/Lenovo/Apple are going to do the right thing and recall the defective notebooks?

Absolutely not.

 

[ddrueding]

But does anyone think Dell/HP/Sony/Lenovo/Apple are going to do the right thing and recall the defective notebooks?

Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Considering the numbers I was hearing started with a "B", that will buy a lot of lawyers. I don't think a recall will happen.

 

[P5-133XL]

I agree that a recall isn't going to happen and that is the correct reponse. What HP did was release a new BIOS that runs the fans faster. All that does is delay the inevitable and from their perpsective hopefully beyond the warrantee period. To me, that repsonse just reeks of no recall. People are already complaining because of the additional noise and decrease in battery life especially since HP pulled the old BIOS's so people can't return.

Ah, Lawyers another group that will definately benefit.

 

[MaxBurn]

I read somewhere, maybe HOCP linking something else, that nvidia is looking to pull out of the chipset business. It was in the same article as the recall news. Really hope they do that soon.

 

[udaman]

The Inq is reporting that nVidia may have a chip level defect on very common G84 and G86 GPUs.

Basically, and this is no surprise to yours truly, the chips are all destined for a short, overheated life after which they will die.


nVidia's quarterly stock report mentions a write-off that is very probably related to these bad parts. Customers (which is to say, OEMs using the parts, not end-users, since nVidia doesn't directly make cards or motherboards) will be given a payout.

Needless to say this is all completely hilarious to me.

Sarcasm noted, as you of course don't mean you have any actual proof of that.

More accurately, NV *did* state they are taking a

one time charge from $150 million to $200 million against cost of revenue for the second quarter to cover anticipated warranty, repair, return, replacement and other costs and expenses, arising from a weak die/packaging material set in certain versions of its previous generation GPU and MCP products used in notebook systems.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/io_1215037160521.html

further noting:

Additional commentary pertaining to the second quarter and the notebook field failures will be available when NVIDIA reports its second quarter financial results on August 12, 2008.


To date, abnormal failure rates with systems other than certain notebook systems have not been seen.

Today's high performance notebooks are highly complex systems with extreme thermal environments. The combination of limited thermal management and frequent power cycling is particularly challenging for complex processors like the GPU.
Huang added, "This has been a challenging experience for us. However, the lessons we've learned will help us build far more robust products in the future, and become a more valuable system design partner to our customers. As for the present, we have switched production to a more robust die/package material set and are working proactively with our OEM partners to develop system management software that will provide better thermal management to the GPU."
For more information about the one-time charge for notebook field failures, please refer to NVIDIA's current report on Form 8-K dated July 2, 2008 filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

Just a rumor that NV was getting out of the chipset bus.:

http://www.appleinsider.com/article...it_chipset_business_no_apple_partnership.html

Update: Lehman analyst Tim Luke has contacted Nvidia management in both the U.S. and Taiwan and found that the company remains committed to staying in the chipset business, despite DigiTimes' claims.

According to Barrons, Luke issued a report noting that Nvidia is expected to ramp chipsets with Intel motherboard partners such as Hewlett-Packard and Dell, with incremental opportunities at Apple, and others.

http://www.electronista.com/articles/08/07/25/dell.fixes.nv.video.bugs/

Dell warns that the fix isn't guaranteed to prevent a breakdown and that anyone already experiencing signs of the problem, including patterns and other artifacts on the screen as well as an outright video failure, has to be taken care of under Dell's normal support program.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10000910-64.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

"We initiated a customer program to address this issue in November 2007, and have notified registered customers who have notebook PC models that are included in this HP program. "HP became aware of this issue when we began performing an investigation based on field performance data," the spokesperson said.
Pavilion dv2000, dv6000, and dv9000 and Compaq Presario V3000 and V6000 series are listed by HP as being potentially affected. Symptoms include no video on the computer LCD screen, no power and no active LEDs, and "the notebook does not start," according to HP's Web page that cites the problem.
"If you are experiencing one or more symptoms listed below, and your computer meets the product criteria listed below, contact HP to determine whether you are eligible for a free repair," the HP Web page states.

500 posts and still going strong :w00t:

 

[ddrueding]

I think their official stance is just damage control. Many sites have jumped on this, and it isn't a slow news day.

 

[Chewy509]

I personally don't think nVidia is going anywhere soon, either through stock devaluation, nor buyout.

And as for the rumors that nVidia getting out of the chipset market, I can't see that happening either. nVidia supply the greatest portion on chipsets for use with AMD Opteron's (AMD doesn't have a current Opteron focused chipset, and Serverworks the only other major provider), and to get decent SLI support on either AMD or Intel based platforms you need a nVidia chipset.

What I can see happening (and this is rumoured), that nVidia won't be making chipsets for Intel CPUs which utilise Intel Quick Path technology, (Intel's answer to hyper-transport) due to licensing problems. Leaving Intel to decide if they won't to support nVidia SLI or not with their own chipsets. And I do believe Intel will support both Crossfire and nVidia SLI, due to market demands. (Intel 5400X chipset supports both IIRC).

Why, Sun, Dell, HP will all demand it. Sun which now uses both AMD Opteron and Intel Xeons in their x86 workstations, will only support nVidia graphic solutions, similar with HP. Dell and HP with their Linux support, again are focused on nVidia, rather than AMD for graphics due to nVidia stating Linux support for Quadros is a tier 1 product. (I don't know what level of support AMD/ATI give to other non-MS OS's... Yes, yes I know AMD/ATI has Linux drivers, but from experience are not that crash hot, and support is lacklusture but is getting better). Which leaves Intel to either a, support SLI, or b, give nVidia a license to use QPI. I'm voting A.

Am I an nVidia fan, well no. I've mostly run ATI in the past, except for the current card which is nVidia. But nVidia for the moment supports my requirements better than AMD/ATI.

Short answer:
nVidia made a boo-boo in the chipset design (and/or the manufacturer stuffed up), stock will take a dip, some people will be unhappy, but all in all, the gamers, the general public and mass-media will forget what happened in 6-12mths anyway.

How many people still go on about IBM Deskstars falling over?

 

[sechs]

nVidia seems to do a really poor job of handling things. Do they still do that stupid pricing crap?

 

[Chewy509]

nVidia seems to do a really poor job of handling things. Do they still do that stupid pricing crap?

As far as I'm aware, yes...

 

[udaman]

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=283626

From this forum post, electronista reports expanded listing of affected systems, those using the mobile GPU.

Latest on the NVIDIA GPU Issue for Dell Laptop Customers
From Electronista:

Quote:
Dell today quietly expanded the list of its notebook PCs affected by NVIDIA's mobile GPU failures to include several extra systems. The chart now includes the Latitude D620, D820, and D830 business notebooks as well as the Precision M4300 and M65 portable workstations. All of these run either a GeForce 8400M, 8600M, or its Quadro equivalent.
From Direct2Dell.com:
Quote:
Though the actual number of affected laptops is limited, many of you expressed concern for potential problems in the future, and we can understand that. We are committed to serving our customers. We do intend to offer modified service terms to specifically support all customers worldwide who are affected by this issue. Right now, our teams are working through details. When I have specifics to share about service terms, I will do that here.
Perhaps extended warranties to those affected are forthcoming?

But, electronista contradicted Ars on the 'software' fix, with Ars mentioning possibility of fan running more frequently, and electronista stating a driver would 'downclock' the GPU's to reduce thermal footprint (though link says 'rumor'). Neither sounds like a good solution

http://www.electronista.com/articles/08/07/16/nvidia.denies.gpu.rumor/

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080716-nvidia-denies-rumors-of-mass-gpu-failures.html

 

[LiamC]

More woes it seems. Though I can't help think that TSMC is involved in this, they fabbed the chips after all...

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/08/12/nvidia-g92s-g94-reportedly

If this gets bad, the ATi aquisition may keep AMD afloat until they can get their CPU house in order (bad pun)

 

[Mercutio]

TSMC only fabbed what they were told. The specifications and designs are the responsibility of nVidia's engineers, which presumably included material science-types who are aware of what insulates and what conducts heat.

In an unrelated note, the whole AMD Spider setup (Phenom + 790G board with integrated graphics) is a really nice combination, particularly when you obtain board + CPU for only slightly more than an Intel Quad Core CPU costs. Give some credit to AMD, because that arrangement is working out really well.

 

[Chewy509]

In an unrelated note, the whole AMD Spider setup (Phenom + 790G board with integrated graphics) is a really nice combination, particularly when you obtain board + CPU for only slightly more than an Intel Quad Core CPU costs. Give some credit to AMD, because that arrangement is working out really well.

Related to this, it really appears that AMD is focusing on being the value provider rather than being the biggest, loudest and quickest, ala like back in the K6 days.

I see nothing wrong with this approach, as many claim that the budget segment is also the largest segment. And if you're number 1 in the segment, you're doing pretty well IMO...

 

[Pradeep]

I personally don't think nVidia is going anywhere soon, either through stock devaluation, nor buyout.

And as for the rumors that nVidia getting out of the chipset market, I can't see that happening either. nVidia supply the greatest portion on chipsets for use with AMD Opteron's (AMD doesn't have a current Opteron focused chipset, and Serverworks the only other major provider), and to get decent SLI support on either AMD or Intel based platforms you need a nVidia chipset.

What I can see happening is that demand for nvidia SLI will diminish in the future. Yes there will be some demand from those currently using SLI and upgrading mobos, but usually they upgrade video cards more often. The ATI 4850/4870/x2/cf series has completely screwed the value proposition of the nvidia 280 and 260. The ATI integrated video offerings aren't too shabby either for the entry level.

 

[udaman]

Nvidia 55nm parts are bad too

Nvidia 55nm parts are bad too


http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/08/28/nvidia-55nm-parts-bad

If true, Nvidia's stock will tank...going to be a lot of unhappy customers of all the affected GPU's.

 

[P5-133XL]

Why Nvidia chips are defective Pt. 1

Why Nvidia chips are defective Pt. 2

 

[LiamC]

Heh, I wonder how long all those folding x800GTx's will last? The thermal stresses...

 

[ddrueding]

Heh, I wonder how long all those folding x800GTx's will last? The thermal stresses...

The thermal stresses are less if the thing stays pegged 100% of the time.

 

[P5-133XL]

GPU Folding is not 100% -- Everytime it sends/receives a WU there will be a minute or two with 0% allowing it to cool somewhat. At current time with WU's in the 250pt range and 4000-5000 points per day will produce around 15 cool-offs every 24hrs.

 

[ddrueding]

Ouch. That seems like it would kill one of these cards in a hurry.

 

[LunarMist]

How can one determine if the graphics card is affected? Will it create a fire hazrd?

 

[Stereodude]

I think they just stop working due to a failure of the solder balls under the BGA.

 

[LunarMist]

I bought some graphics card a couple of months ago that someone here liked. Will the card fail if I only use it a few dozen hours per month and with no 3D functions? I am not sure if the failure is primarily heat threshold dependent or if it degrades over time even with low power use.

 

[Striker]

For someone who doesn't know the chip names is there a list somewhere of what cards are effected?

 

[Stereodude]

For someone who doesn't know the chip names is there a list somewhere of what cards are effected?

nVidia won't admit to it, so no one knows for sure.

 

[Chewy509]

For someone who doesn't know the chip names is there a list somewhere of what cards are effected?

While I don't know which chips are affected, this site can show you the cards that have a certain chip...

http://www.gpureview.com/nvidia-g96-chip-155.html

eg for the list of all chips that feature the nVidia G96 chip...

 

[ddrueding]

http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/08/09/10/1554215.shtml

 

[udaman]

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/10/13/apple_drop_intel_for_nvidia_rumour/

Centrino 2 was finally released into the wild in July this year after a series of problems forced Chipzilla to delay the release of its refreshed platform...."If the Nvidia graphics processor in your MacBook Pro has failed, or fails within two years of the original date of purchase, a repair will be done free of charge, even if your MacBook Pro is out of warranty."

Chipzilla, lol...gotta luv the classy journalism of the Brits


NVIDIA GPU failures hit Apple, HP desktops
http://www.gamerscan.com/articles/08/10/14/nvidia.fails.apple.and.hp/




http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2332325,00.asp

"In July 2008, Nvidia publicly acknowledged a higher than normal failure rate for some of their graphics processors due to a packaging defect," Apple said. "At that same time, Nvidia assured Apple that Mac computers with these graphics processors were not affected. However, after an Apple-led investigation, Apple has determined that some MacBook Pro computers with the Nvidia GeForce 8600M GT graphics processor may be affected.
For its part, Nvidia representatives said the issue has been fixed, and all of its new GPUs are not susceptible to the problem. "Nvidia has worked diligently with Apple, as we have done with all of our customers and partners, to analyze their notebooks and determine if there are potential problems," Nvidia said in a statement. "Modern notebooks are complex, and every system is different. The OEM is ultimately best able to assess the reliability of their own systems."

 

[ddrueding]

So nVidia said there wasn't a problem, then that there was a problem but it didn't affect Macs, then Apple said they were affected, then nVidia said that Macs had been affected, but that it was fixed, but that Apple should judge for itself. Right.

nVidia is not the most trustworthy company at the moment.

 

[sechs]

How do they stay in business with all of these shenanigans?

 

[udaman]

INQUIRER confirms Apple Macbook Pros have Nvidia bad bump material


http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/12/09/apple-macbook-pros-nvidia-bad

Early production runs of the new 'unibody' 15.4in MacBookPros could have a problem(as well as older body current 17in MBP since they use the same GPU). Let's see what Apple's response is, denial?

Analysis
So, what does this all mean? It suggests that there are 15-inch Macbook Pros being sold with 'bad bumps', the same materials that brought down so many HP, Dell and Apple parts, both laptop and desktop. For some odd reason, Nvidia really does not want you to know this.
The first and most obvious question is, does Apple know? Repeated calls to Apple PR were not returned prior to this story, and while that looks pretty damning, it isn't. Apple will not talk to journalists unless they are assured the response will be fawning, and we do not fit that mold. That said, given the history between Apple and Nvidia, it could go either way.
When we ran our finding past Nvidia prior to publication, Mike Hara replied: "You asked me specifically if the 9400 and 9600 used in the MacBooks were free of all bad bumps. I responded to you that the combination of material underfill and bump is different from the combination that was exhibiting the bump crack field failures earlier in the year."
We find this problematic. If the bumps were not a problem at all, why were they changed on the 9400? The 9400 is a much cooler-running chip than the 9600, so why change the part that is less likely to die? If the 9600 with 'good bumps' is being phased in, why bother with the qualification costs, time, and inventory hassles if it is not a problem?
The other problem comes down to heat. The new Macbooks run hot, very hot. T he net is filled with reports of them overheating and hanging. This is most often seen when gaming, a task that stresses the GPUs hard, and results in a 'black screen of death'. These beasties run extremely hot.

....MacBookPro w/9600 are reputed to be extremely hot, should note that, not MacBook, the consumer laptops.

 

[LunarMist]

OMG! Apple uses sh*t components in their overpriced notebooks. I'm shocked.

 

[Handruin]

My buddy and I worked on his wife's apple G4 notebook last night because its been locking up and video issues. Turns out tons of people have this issue with G3 and G4 notebooks because of one chip on the logic board has poor soldering. The fix was to take apart the notebook and find the area on the logic board with the faulty chip and wedge a shim in there to keep pressure on it. After getting it all back together, the notebook is still working fine since last night.

 

[MaxBurn]

My buddy and I worked on his wife's apple G4 notebook last night because its been locking up and video issues. Turns out tons of people have this issue with G3 and G4 notebooks because of one chip on the logic board has poor soldering. The fix was to take apart the notebook and find the area on the logic board with the faulty chip and wedge a shim in there to keep pressure on it. After getting it all back together, the notebook is still working fine since last night.

I read somewhere they are taking care of these in and out of warranty, worth a follow up.