Papers Please

Handruin

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If she planned on not showing her ID she should have left it at home. Then, when she was asked to present ID, she should tell the truth and say no. If they ask why, she can tell them she has none. There is no law that I know of which requires a person to carry an ID card. At that point she would have an even stronger case.
 

Fushigi

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Doug, that's not the point. It's a violation of the fourth amendment (illegal search & seizure) to have to show ID. They can legitimately ask you to identify yourself, though, in which case responding with "I'm Fred Smith" should be taken at face value. Whether you're carrying ID or not doesn't matter. Without probable cause the authorities have no right to force you to present ID.

Please read the entire article if you can. If not, please read just the last page. Requiring ID to be presented is a very bad thing.

And, really, if we don't have a federally issued ID card, how can the federal gov't require us to present identification?
 

Handruin

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I read the entire article before I posted I promise. ;) I fully understand what the point was. I was making talk which apparently came across the wrong way. I felt that the police would have had even less of a reason to charge her with when they went searching for some dumb misdemeanor to fit their case. You're right, even if she had an ID, she shouldn't have to show it. But, what would have happened to her if she didn’t have an ID in the first place?
 

CougTek

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Those cops should be beaten until their face looks like strawberry jam, chained and pull behind a truck in a dirt trail and then shot between the eyes without ceremony­.

I can't stand authorities' abuses. The only reason they ask for ID is to show they are in power and that they are the boss. I have no respect for that. They are paid to maintain order and safe conditions for free people but they use their status to oppress those they are paid to protect. That's disgusting.
 

Bozo

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These wern't even real cops. They were the security people for the compound.

Funny, this didn't make the mainstream news????


Bozo :mrgrn:
 

Will Rickards

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My question is where does it go now? Looking at the site news, it appears the case against her has been dropped. But I would assume she is suing for violation of her rights?
 

sechs

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If I'm reading it correctly, the charges haven't been dropped, but the DA isn't going to pursue them.

I don't know if they're going to file a suit on her behalf, but they may have a case for false arrest and illegal search.
 

mubs

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I watch with deep sorrow as this country verily turns into that against which it has stood from the beginning.
 

Mercutio

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Today, I bought a DVD at Best Buy.
$18.01, and I happened to have exact change, so I handed the cashier cash.
She then asked for my phone number.

I thought that was odd, and what's more I thought it was unreasonable. I told her I don't have a phone. She said she had to put in something. I asked why. She couldn't or wouldn't tell me. I told her to put in 911 or the store's own phone number. I thought the whole situation was very odd. There was a very long pause as she typed something in her register. The whole transaction should've been maybe 15 seconds long, and it took over two minutes.

A couple minutes ago I found this article describing the reasoning behind the practice.
 

mubs

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I've always refused to give phone # / zip code. If they insist, I'd rather walk away without the purchase.
 

Handruin

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I’ve gone through the same phone number situation. They ask, I say no, and it has always been the end of the conversation. I've never had anyone give me grief over it.

Unrelated, I noticed how more vendors are actively approaching people in the mall to sell their product. You know the ones I'm talking about; the store kiosks that sit stranded in the middle of the lanes stating "oh I wish I could afford a real store". Well, today my new thing was to say "peace" in a gansta tone every time someone confronted me to sell their product.

"Sir, are you happy with your cell..." Peace!

And I keep walking right by them. It was fun. It made me smile regardless of how stupid I sounded.
 

Adcadet

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Great Clips, a cheap hair cutting place asks for a phone number to identify you. I don't know what else they use it for, but after getting it and bringing me back then say "a number 2 again?" so obviously they store my hair cutting preferences. No big deal, especially since my preference identifies me more with the military than anything else.

When other stores ask for a phone number I'll often give them XXX-YYY-1234 where XXX and YYY is the local number prefix. Nobody questions the 1234 part, but I suspect many realize it's fake.
 

sechs

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Actually, the entire 555 prefix in each area code is reserved, which is why it is always used in TV and film.

Other than 555-1212, I'm not aware of any "real" numbers in that prefix.
 

Fushigi

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Stereodude said:
Oh boo hoo... She doesn't have to show them her ID, and she doesn't have a constitutional right to ride the bus either.
Public transportation is, well, for the public. She has just as much right as you, me, or anyone else. There is no ID requirement for riding the bus.

This sounds like you could care less about losing your privacy and that you'd welcome a police state. I certainly hope that's not the case.
 

Stereodude

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Fushigi said:
Public transportation is, well, for the public. She has just as much right as you, me, or anyone else. There is no ID requirement for riding the bus.

This sounds like you could care less about losing your privacy and that you'd welcome a police state. I certainly hope that's not the case.
Can you show me where she has the right to ride the bus? I must have missed the constitutional ammendment ensuring each of us a right to ride the bus.

Do you refuse to subject yourself to a screening by airport security (which involves showing an ID) and expect to be allowed on the plane? Do you refuse the pass through a metal detector and have your belonging X-ray'd at Federal buildings and still expect to get in?

The details that are missing from her side of the story is that she was on US Gov't Federal property. The Feds have been checking ID's of bus passengers during times of "heightened alert" since 1995 after the Oklahoma City bombing. She was asked for ID, refused and was asked to leave the bus. She refused to leave, and was arrested.

Here's a more objective version of what happened. http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4274023,00.html

Why is this indicative of a police state, but the other examples I mentioned aren't?
 

sechs

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I must have missed the constitutional ammendment requiring me to show ID when asked.

I don't think that you understand the case. There's no reason to require ID, because no one checks that it's real, let alone whether the holder is someone that should be let in. Basically, it's not a security measure.

Furthurmore, theoretically, people who ride the bus or doing so because they aren't driving a car to their destination. If I don't drive a car, I don't need a driver's license. If I don't need a license, why would I spend time and money to get one? So, what do you show them? It's an incomplete policy, to boot.
 

Stereodude

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sechs said:
Furthurmore, theoretically, people who ride the bus or doing so because they aren't driving a car to their destination. If I don't drive a car, I don't need a driver's license. If I don't need a license, why would I spend time and money to get one? So, what do you show them? It's an incomplete policy, to boot.
I guess those people who don't drive cars don't buy alcohol either.

I don't understand you guys. People have been trading their liberties for a false sense of security for decades. Why are you guys getting all riled up about it now?
 

LiamC

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I think it has to do with:

the seemingly accelerated erosion (of liberties)
increased awareness of the capabilities of data matching, vis a vis IT systems
colourful parallels with despotic regimes--Ausweispapiere gefallen!

At the risk of invoking Godson's Law, Nazi Germany did not happen overnight, and the German people were not blood-thirsty maniacs with a veneer of civility. The progression from the old republic to a nation that was brainwashed/too apathetic/too scared to resist atrocities happened in a series of small erosions/coditioning steps that all appeared innocuous--and in fact, after each step, the cry "what are you worried about?" was bandied about far too readily. Changes such as these should be debated/investigated/questioned. If no overwhelmingly compelling reason exists for their introduction, then they should not be.

$0.05

Between the Tsunami in Asia and Earthquake in Pakistan, half a million people lost their lives. Terrorists have accounted for how many? Yet we worry about--nay--are terrified of terrorists. How about a little perspective. NOTE: I am not condoning terrorism or terrorists. I think they and their doctrine are the most heinous of crimes and criminals--on par with paedophiles--and I would not shed a tear if, once having charges proven, they were shot immediately. But, rational thought leads me to believe that their is a lot of hystery surrounding such an emotive issue, so why are politicians rushing to embrace the curtailing of liberties? The possibility of hidden agendas exists.
 

Fushigi

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Stereodude, I'll try a different approach. The US federal government doesn't issue an ID card to citizens. They also don't mandate that a citizen possess an ID card from any 'authorized' source (like a state ID/drivers license). So how can they reasonably ask for a card they neither provided nor mandated I possess, let alone carry?
I guess those people who don't drive cars don't buy alcohol either.
Minors can ride busses. What ID are they to provide if they're too young to driver or drink and therefore don't have an ID?
 

Tannin

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Stereodude said:
All the civil liberties in the world won't do you any good when you're dead.

And your point is?

If you are suggesting that the current mania for invading privacy and curtailing hard-earned civil liberties and wasting truly vast sums of money on pointless "security" measures has got something to do with saving lives, you are on the wrong planet, and whatever it is you are smoking, can I have some too please?

The number of lives lost to politically motivated violence, even in the United States, is utterly trivial compared to the lives lost in other ways — and many of these other lost lives could be saved at vastly less expense and enormously greater cost-effectiveness.
 

Mercutio

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More US citizens have been killed by being struck dead by lightning than killed by terrorists in the last 3 years. Clearly, we must have a cabinet-level position to deal with the callous and unceasing scourge of mother nature.
 

Tannin

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A short list of areas urgently needing government attention and a little bit of funding in order to save lives. To merit inclusion on this list, the area of concern must:

* (a) kill many, many more people than terrorism, and
* (b) be an area where a tiny fraction of the money wasted on "security" would produce results vastly greater than those produced by the "war on terror".*

* I am being charitable here, and actually assuming that the "war on terror" does have some positive results to show for itself. In reality, it wouldn't be hard to argue that the WOT has actually killed vast numbers of people who would otherwise be alive today, and by inciting hate, fear, and loathing of the United States and its lackey states, substantially contributed to the number of recruits flowing into terrorist organisations. The payoff in terms of lives saved by the WOT, in this view, is negative - it has made matters worse, not better. But that is another topic and for the purposes of this post I'll ignore the evidence and assume that the WOT has actually achieved something measirable and positive.

OK, on with the list. These areas, remember, are ones which see many, many more people die than than terrorism does, and which could be vastly improved by quite small spending increases. Listed in no particular order. feel free to add others.

* Infant vaccination against infectious diseases
* Better enforcement of existing road laws, e.g.,
** Drink-driving
** Excessive speed in urban areas
* Some universal basic minimum training in road courtesy and common sense
* Proper quarintine measures to prevent the spread of (e.g.) bird flu, SARS, and others as they emerge.
* A healthy diet campaign in schools would save thousands upon thousands, millions over time.
* Triple the pitifully small mental health budget to save (let's say) 50% of the people who die from the commonest cause of death of young people of them all: suicide.
* Institute sensible and normal gun control rules (as practiced in most of the rest of the civilised world: places which have a murder rate so much smaller than that of the USA that you can't even compare the numbers).
* declare a war on racial violence
* declare a war on poverty (which is a truly massive killer)

There are probably dozens more, but any one of the above would pay vastly better dividends than the WOT (even if you believe the most ridiculous claims of the PR people supporting it), and cost a tiny, tiny fraction as much.
 

CougTek

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Instead, they are spending billions to erect a wall between them and Mexico, while contemplating the idea of doing the same with Canada. Talk about paranoia and wasted money. Isolating yourself behind a wall, that's so Germany-during-the-cold-war-like. They have taken a page out of the Israel book. Bunch of morons.
 

Stereodude

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CougTek said:
Instead, they are spending billions to erect a wall between them and Mexico, while contemplating the idea of doing the same with Canada. Talk about paranoia and wasted money. Isolating yourself behind a wall, that's so Germany-during-the-cold-war-like. They have taken a page out of the Israel book. Bunch of morons.
If you don't enforce your borders, and your immigration laws you cease to have a country.
 

Stereodude

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Mercutio said:
More US citizens have been killed by being struck dead by lightning than killed by terrorists in the last 3 years. Clearly, we must have a cabinet-level position to deal with the callous and unceasing scourge of mother nature.
Ahh yes...

Let a few terror cells set off a suitcase nuke in LA, NYC, and Chicago and then we'll see how you feel about terrorism, and why we didn't do enough to stop it.

By your logic we should stop fighting terrorism and do nothing about it until it kills more people each year than cancer and heart disease. Until then we should spend all our defense budget to fight cancer and heart disease.
 

Tannin

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Stereodude said:
By your logic we should stop fighting terrorism and do nothing about it until it kills more people each year than cancer and heart disease. Until then we should spend all our defense budget to fight cancer and heart disease.

You got it in one.

In the United States, in the two year period that included the worst terror year ever (i.e., 9/11), 142 times as many people were killed by road accident as were killed in terror events.

In other words, you could have a 9/11-scale terror event occur every single week and you would still have only a minor problem compared to road accidents[/b].

And road accidents themselves are only a minor cause of death, trivial by comparison with the biggies like heart problems, cancer, and stroke.

Percentage death rates (USA, 2002 figures)

1: Heart: 28.5%
2: Cancer: 22.8%
3: Stroke: 6.7%
4: Lower resp disease: 5.1%
5: Diabetes: 3.0%
6: Flu: 2.7%
7: Alzheimer's: 2.4%
8: Non-road accidents: 2.4%
9: Road accidents: 2.0%
10: Kidney disease: 1.7%
11: Septicemia: 1.4%
12: Suicide: 1.3%
13: Liver disease: 1.1%
14: Blood pressure: 0.8%
15: Murder: 0.7%

Even in the 9/11 year terrorism was so minor a problem that it is completely off the scale. Sure, take some measures to defend against it if you want to. But the moment you spend money defending against terrorism that you could have spent dealing with any of those actual, real, significant causes of death listed above (or with the next 100 or 200 minor causes that are still much worse than terrorism) .... the moment you divert dollars from important work into non-productive life-saving work (i.e., so-called "counter-terror" measures), you are killing people.

Simple as that: if you waste money fixing a "problem" that is so minor that, statistically speaking, it doesn't exist, you are effectively killing the people with real problems - problems that kill more people in a single day than terror kills in a period of years - that you could have helped and didn't.

Do you know that more people died in road acccidents because they didn't want to fly after 9/11 than were killed in the attacks themselves?
 

Tannin

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CougTek said:
Instead, they are spending billions to erect a wall between them and Mexico, while contemplating the idea of doing the same with Canada. Talk about paranoia and wasted money. Isolating yourself behind a wall, that's so Germany-during-the-cold-war-like. They have taken a page out of the Israel book. Bunch of morons.

Stereodude said:
If you don't enforce your borders, and your immigration laws you cease to have a country.

I agree with both the statements above. They are both self-evidently true. Where then is the sensible, practical, non-paranoid policy that ties them together?

James?
 

Stereodude

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Tannin said:
I agree with both the statements above. They are both self-evidently true. Where then is the sensible, practical, non-paranoid policy that ties them together?

James?
There isn't a sensible, practical, non-paranoid policy when the country to your south encourages and helps people illegally enter your country.
 

Will Rickards

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While statistically it may not be significant,
Auto deaths are probably considered by most people to be irrelevant as are many of the other top causes of deaths. Only a minority care about those causes because they have been directly affected by them. Same about terror attacks and 9/11. Tell any of the families about their statistical irrelevance and they'll probably resort to violence.

Terror attacks have a bigger impact than just the deaths they cause. They cause people walking down the street to possibly live in fear. It is for this that the money is spent and for this reason the government needs to look like it is doing something. So the citizens can sleep in their beds not fearing tomorrow.

That said, a government that goes overboard in correcting for their mistakes in preventing attacks in the past is not too good either.
 

Fushigi

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Will Rickards said:
Terror attacks have a bigger impact than just the deaths they cause. They cause people walking down the street to possibly live in fear.
Frankly, to me and other security professionals, it is the government that is causing me to be afraid, not the terrorists. The things that are being done in the name of security are leading us down the wrong path. Not only do they provide minimal, if any, actual improvement to our security posture, they are enormously expensive and the ROI is staggeringly small. In the end, average citizens are running scared because of the constant warnings from the government. The way the media reports things doesn't help.

Running scared. Hmm. Sounds like the terrorists have already won.
 
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