Police Pursuit

Pradeep

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$18,000 on legal defense costs. Wonder if the Lambo dealership or the owner paid for that? One rule for the rich, one for the rest of us.

What does Top Gear 'tragic' mean? I've never heard the term used like that.

Love how it says for legal reasons no comments can be published about this matter, then 32 commments below.
 

Chewy509

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Howell

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Not that one in particular, but IIRC both Finland and Sweden make the fine a percentage of annual income, rather than a fixed amount. (Which makes a lot of sense). So if you're rich, expect a larger fine than someone who is borderline in poverty.

YOU are making that up. :)
 

time

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Unless you believe the rich should not be punished or deterred, why doesn't it make sense? It just pulls traffic offences more into line with other parts of the legal system.

In any case, it's based on income, not disposable income, so it still has less effect on a wealthy person.
 

Howell

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He's partially wrong on two accounts.
1) It's Switzerland & Finland. link
2) It doesn't make a lot of sense.

1) Haha, the original posted article said Finland, Sweden, and Norway. We can add Switzerland to the list, no problem. I was being facecious in my original post; did no one who commented read the original link? :p

2)Doesn't make a lot of sense? Are you serious? :) Are you presuming that speeding tickets are given out based on the additional road damage high speed travel incurs rather than as a deterrent for the benefit of public safety? :p It makes plenty of sense. Or are you going to argue that he was going as fast as prevailing speed?
 

LunarMist

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They should dismantle more of the smaller ones. I wonder about the platters. :scratch:
 

Howell

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1) Haha, the original posted article said Finland, Sweden, and Norway. We can add Switzerland to the list, no problem. I was being facecious in my original post; did no one who commented read the original link? :p

Oops, I guess that was Merc's post I was reading and not the original.:compress:
 

LunarMist

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My Maserati does 185
I lost my license now I don't drive
I have a limo ride in the back
I lock the doors in case I'm attacked
 

Stereodude

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Unless you believe the rich should not be punished or deterred, why doesn't it make sense? It just pulls traffic offences more into line with other parts of the legal system.

In any case, it's based on income, not disposable income, so it still has less effect on a wealthy person.
Well, two reasons:

1) Unless we magically change all aspects of life so everything is a percentage of income it's utter nonsense.

If I want to buy a Ferrari, I don't get to pay a percentage of my income and get one, I have to pay the price. The same price anyone else who walks into the dealer will have to pay. When I go into the grocery store to buy a gallon of milk and a loaf of bread, I pay the same price as anyone else who walks into the same store for the same items.

So, I can't afford a Ferrari and a rich person can. Well, guess what life isn't fair. That's just how it is. It's not the job of the gov't to try to equalize outcomes.

2) Tickets aren't intended to serve as deterrents, they're intended to serve as revenue generation. Keep the price the same for everyone and be happy that rich people are willing to speed and pay the "tax" on speeding.
 

ddrueding

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It's not the job of the gov't to try to equalize outcomes.

Actually, it is. Whether it should be or not is a different argument, but the income tax schedule makes it pretty clear what they want to accomplish, and the social benefits seem fairly clear.

2) Tickets aren't intended to serve as deterrents, they're intended to serve as revenue generation. Keep the price the same for everyone and be happy that rich people are willing to speed and pay the "tax" on speeding.

Agreed 100%. I wish all I had to do was pay a fine, its the points that bother me.
 

LunarMist

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This one? :scratch: Don't you remember Life's Been Good?
 

Pradeep

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Well, two reasons:

1) Unless we magically change all aspects of life so everything is a percentage of income it's utter nonsense.

If I want to buy a Ferrari, I don't get to pay a percentage of my income and get one, I have to pay the price. The same price anyone else who walks into the dealer will have to pay. When I go into the grocery store to buy a gallon of milk and a loaf of bread, I pay the same price as anyone else who walks into the same store for the same items.

So, I can't afford a Ferrari and a rich person can. Well, guess what life isn't fair. That's just how it is. It's not the job of the gov't to try to equalize outcomes.

2) Tickets aren't intended to serve as deterrents, they're intended to serve as revenue generation. Keep the price the same for everyone and be happy that rich people are willing to speed and pay the "tax" on speeding.


1) So a person making $30,000 pays the same amount and percentage of tax as a person making $200,000? Life isn't fair, they should pay the same. Also, food stamps for low income earners. Disgraceful stuff I know.

2) Tickets, and eventual suspension of license on demerit points is a deterrent. Particularly in the US where insurance rates also go up. Of course plenty drive without a license or insurance, some get caught. Just like DUI.
 

Howell

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10% of income is a little steep if the objective were revenue generation. You would likely get more revenue overall with a 5% fine. Or better yet a subscription model where you can pay for fines in advance and get a better rate.
 

Stereodude

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1) So a person making $30,000 pays the same amount and percentage of tax as a person making $200,000? Life isn't fair, they should pay the same. Also, food stamps for low income earners. Disgraceful stuff I know.

2) Tickets, and eventual suspension of license on demerit points is a deterrent. Particularly in the US where insurance rates also go up. Of course plenty drive without a license or insurance, some get caught. Just like DUI.
1) Well, that would be a truly "fair tax" and I'd support it. Everyone gets the basically same benefit from the gov't so why should some people pay vastly more money for those benefits than others?

2) Please... Points are a joke. Most states will wave the points if you simply ask them to wave them and are willing to pay the fine.
 

BingBangBop

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Guys, the whole point is to deter behavior, regardless of income. If the fine is a fixed amount then it deters differently depending on income. The person that makes 1M/Yr could care less if there is a fine of 1000 while the person making 10K/year cares much more. If you make the fine a % of the income then both are deterred much more equally. No one is forced to pay the fine in that no one is forced to do the behavior. They choose to behave improperly...

I can see their point. All that is happening in those countries, is a different goal and perspective from the US which designs fines as a form of taxation. Different cultures make different choices.

If you knock their choices and culture using the US perspective then you risk that they get to fault the US for some of ours and that does not produce a climate of respect that produces long-term peace.
 

Stereodude

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Guys, the whole point is to deter behavior, regardless of income. If the fine is a fixed amount then it deters differently depending on income. The person that makes 1M/Yr could care less if there is a fine of 1000 while the person making 10K/year cares much more. If you make the fine a % of the income then both are deterred much more equally. No one is forced to pay the fine in that no one is forced to do the behavior. They choose to behave improperly...
So, using that logic I guess the whole point of the US tax code is to serve as a deterrent to making income, not revenue generation. Since after all, the more you make, the more you're punished for doing so. :rofl:
 

Mercutio

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Taxes are not a punishment. They represent the costs for the public services one uses. You don't think a high income earner makes more use of public services than a low earner?
 

BingBangBop

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So, using that logic I guess the whole point of the US tax code is to serve as a deterrent to making income, not revenue generation. Since after all, the more you make, the more you're punished for doing so. :rofl:
No the logic can't be extrapolated backwards. The purpose of taxes in the US is to pay for the govt. supplied services and service the debt. If things keep going the way that have been, it may be that eventually the sole purpose of taxes will be just to service the debt and all the federal govt. services will be paid for by new debt.

That being said there is some truth that the income tax does deter making income at least to some extent. A good example would be the the mother/wife that wants to start working and finds that between taxes and child care the family doesn't make any more money than her just being a full-time homemaker. It does happen...
 

Stereodude

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You don't think a high income earner makes more use of public services than a low earner?
No I don't. If anything I'd argue it's reversed. The low income earner makes more use of public services via assistance programs like welfare, food stamps, etc.
 

Handruin

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No I don't. If anything I'd argue it's reversed. The low income earner makes more use of public services via assistance programs like welfare, food stamps, etc.

I would agree with this also. My girlfriend works in the non-profit sector for social work and helping low-income people who have mental disabilities. The amount of services provided to them is both essential (for the well-being of both them and also healthy people without mental disabilities due to safety) and also costly.
 

Stereodude

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Lets not forget about educations costs... Wealthy people seem to have less kids than those who are poorer and frequently send their kids to private school while still paying for the public schooling their kids aren't getting via their taxes. Poorer people often have more kids and send them to public school.

So how are rich people making more use of public services again?
 

Mercutio

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Wealthy people depend on the legal system (and, at a higher level, US Foreign and Trade policy) to enforce contracts. The have more direct access to their elected representatives because of their money. They live in low-density neighborhoods which require vastly more resources to maintain and demand conveniences from the public weal far outside their individual importance.
 

Stereodude

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Sorry, but I'm still not seeing it. First, the legal system isn't overrun with rich people. It's overrun with criminals who tend to be not rich. And to your last point, rich people pay dearly on their property taxes for their large lots in their low-density neighborhoods.
 

Howell

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Sorry, it's not relevant. This whole line of argument hangs on revenue generation as the motivation for writing tickets. That has yet to be proven.
 

Stereodude

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Sorry, it's not relevant. This whole line of argument hangs on revenue generation as the motivation for writing tickets. That has yet to be proven.
Please explain why else the police ticket people?

We all know they make arbitrary rules and restrictions and then ticket the people who break those. The purpose is revenue generation not safety. If the purpose of giving people speeding ticket was actually safety there would far more effective method of achieving the goal of safety. For example, speeding... It would be trivial with today's technology to make a car that knew the speed limit of the road it was on and simply refused to go faster. If cars driving on a road faster than a certain speed (ie: speeding) was dangerous and stopping it would save lives then why not implement a system that make it impossible? I've yet to hear any argument that sufficiently explains the current method of traffic law enforcement other than $$$$.

Oh wait, No... It must be about safety. :rolleyes: I know, lets move this brilliant and effective model into airline passenger screening. Lets eliminate all passenger screening and simply fine people who get caught on a plane with things they're not supposed to have. That will certainly make the skies safer. ;)
 

Bozo

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Back to the cars:

In the early 70s I worked in a Lincoln-Mercury service department. I was fortune enough to work on and drive the Pantara. On one test drive I took the car to an expressway that had an exit ramp to another expressway that was a very tight curve and flat. Normally you would do 35-40MPH around this curve. I took it at 60+MPH and it was like being on rails.
About 5 minutes after returning to the dealership, a state tropper pulled in.
He walked over to the car and looked at me and said "don't do that again".
I think he was upset. :-D
But no ticket.
 

MaxBurn

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There are reasons I do all my own work on cars I care about..
 

snowhiker

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Rich use more Public services than the poor.

Taxes are not a punishment. They represent the costs for the public services one uses. You don't think a high income earner makes more use of public services than a low earner?

Absolutely correct! The rich take advantage of, and use far more government services than the rich.

No I don't. If anything I'd argue it's reversed. The low income earner makes more use of public services via assistance programs like welfare, food stamps, etc.

And the $685 BILLION used to fund the defense department is being spent on poor people and/or protecting the assets/rights of the poor. Ummmmm NO. Exxon, Mobil, Haliburton, Boeing, etc, etc need the US defense dept a lot more than the poor fuck making $15k/year.

Oh and it's probably the son of the poor fuck making 15k/year that was killed in the shit-holes of Iraq/Pakistan then the son of some rich person.

Lets not forget about educations costs... Wealthy people seem to have less kids than those who are poorer and frequently send their kids to private school while still paying for the public schooling their kids aren't getting via their taxes. Poorer people often have more kids and send them to public school.

Even private schools/universities receive a large percentage of their operating costs from public grants, subsidies, corporate funding, etc. The tuition paid by even Harvard students (or their parents) is only a portion of the actual costs. The public pays the rest.

Not to mention Universities exist more and more as corporate R&D facilities, paid for with public funds.

If Karl Marx were to look at the current U.S. education system he would say it is functioning perfectly for what it was designed to do: Educate a tiny elite to run things, while creating a huge semi-literate/educated majority to work in that shitty Wal-Mart job. The Education system is working exactly as designed. /end mini-rant.

Wealthy people depend on the legal system (and, at a higher level, US Foreign and Trade policy) to enforce contracts. The have more direct access to their elected representatives because of their money. They live in low-density neighborhoods which require vastly more resources to maintain and demand conveniences from the public weal far outside their individual importance.

Again 100% correct. Elected officials are bought and paid for by the rich. Who's interest do you thing they are going to support.

If the legal system went Poof-all-gone, the rich would be the first to scream and moan how we have to get the lawyers back. Who's going to enforce the precious laws than protect the assets/rights of the rich.

Now if you use Rush Limbaugh/Glenn Beck reasoning you can see how the poor people on welfare/food stamps use more public (read:government) services/money than the rich. If you actually follow the money it's painfully obvious that the "rich" benefit far more from a "well funded" government than the poor.

Of course the rich want the government funded by the poor that's why they are against higher taxes.

Socialism for the Rich; Free markets for the poor.

/end huge rant. thanks for listening.
 

Stereodude

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Nice rant! :scratch:

Not very factual, but I won't hold it against you.

We'll never agree because we have a fundamental disagreement about what's fair. You think the system isn't fair because not everyone ends up with the same results. On the other hand, I think you can't equalize outcomes, unless your goal is to make everyone equally miserable. What is fair is that everyone has the same opportunity to make whatever they want of themselves limited only by their drive and motivation. The rest is simply up to human nature and the luck of the draw and that you can't legislate.
 

snowhiker

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We'll never agree because we have a fundamental disagreement about what's fair. You think the system isn't fair because not everyone ends up with the same results.

Ummmm how do you get that from what I said. I was simply trying to show the rich (well mega-rich mainly) get more from the government than the poor. And the system is a bit "more-fair" if you can afford it. aka afford a lawyer.
On the other hand, I think you can't equalize outcomes, unless your goal is to make everyone equally miserable. What is fair is that everyone has the same opportunity to make whatever they want of themselves limited only by their drive and motivation. The rest is simply up to human nature and the luck of the draw and that you can't legislate.


I'm not a "take-from-rich--->give-to-poor" guy. In fact I agree with your point about legislating equality.
 
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