Politics by geography...

ddrueding

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...a brain fard I decided to share :eekers:


Throughout history, when a disagreement arises in a civilized culture, the more forward-thinking group says "OK, you stay here...I'm leaving". This led people from Europe to the Eastern US, and then again to the western US. One of the more forward-thinking (liberal? Or just easy to adapt?) regions around. (hampered by the Natl. Govt. of course)

Where does Aus. stand in this theory? Considering the initial colonies wern't, erm, voluntary?
 

Tannin

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It doesn't. Australia, I mean. But this is because the theory doesn't wash up.

First, it is, on the whole, reasonable to claim that the post-revolutionary USA was more "forward-thinking" than Europe at that time. But it is difficult to make very much out of this even so: consider revolutionary France - far more "forward-thinking" than the USA.

It's probably also reasonable to claim that the the western USA was more "forward-thinking" than the eastern USA, (and possibly still is).

But the mechanism you suggest simply ain't so. Before I turn to that, however, let's take care of a rather gross misconception about Australia's population history. As a proportion of the Australian population, the children's children of convicts account for a vanishingly small percentage. Let's do the sums:
  • There were about 160,000 convicts transported in total, starting in 1788 and ending in .. er ... 1852 for the eastern states, 1868 for Western Australia. (After they found huge gold deposits in Victoria, sending convicts to the place everybody wanted to go started to seem like a really bad idea.) Life was short in those days, so a reasonable guess at the total convict and ex-convict population at any given time would be something like 30 to 50,000.
  • From 1788 to about 1820 or so, convicts and soldiers to guard them were in the majority.
  • I'm not sure of the exact date above (1820? 1830?), but from 1851 on, the number of free immigrants soared. The reason: gold. The gold rush brought countless thousands of British, American, Italian and Chinese immigrants, and many more from other countries. Indeed, the population would have swollen even faster except for the transport problem: the moment you docked your clipper in Melbourne or Geelong or Adelaide, all the crew jumped overboard and swam ashore to try their fortunes, so your ship swung at anchor for anything up to six months while you tried to beg, borrow, or steal enough men to man her for the voyage home.
  • In addition to the immigrants - not just diggers, many more came after them to be shopkeepers or farmers or whatever - people bred like flies in those contraceptive-free days. Despite the massive immigration in the second half of the 19th Century (i.e., the long build-up after the gold rush through the 1860s, '70s, '80s and '90s), by the time of federation (Jan 1st, 1901), the population had reached 3,788,123 and 75% of all Australians were native-born. For Australia, 1901 is the equivalent date to 1788 in the USA. Even on that first day of the new nation, native-born and free-settlers between them would have made up somewhere between 95 and 99% of the population.
  • Since that time, immigration has continued apace, not starting to slow down until late in the 20th Century. The population is now over 20 million.
  • In the period from 1788 to about 1930, the Aborginal Australian population dropped from about 500,000 to about 50,000. A few were killed, many were driven off their land and effectively starved to death; most fell victim to European diseases such as chicken pox and measles.
In short, the "convict theory" of Australia, in its primary form, is about as stupid and as ignorant a theory as it's possible to dream up.

It is, however, possible to argue that the convicts were a major influence on other Australians. No-one has managed to suggest any sensible mechanism for this purported transfusion of cultural values from a small, poor, low-status group (convicts) to a large, better-off, higher-status group (free settlers), but some people seem to believe that it occurred. I have no idea why, as cultural values nearly always go in the opposite direction - from high-status groups to low-status groups. Nor has anyone managed to suggest a sensible reason for the supposed importance of convicts as nation-builders, as opposed to other groups - notably the soldiers who were sent to guard the convicts, the diggers, the drovers, the businessmen, and so on.

80% of Australians alive today have no convict blood in their veins at all. They are the children of the children of the people who came here of their own free will between (roughly) 1850 and 1980. The biggest single group (by my rough and ready guess) is the one containing the children of the people who arrived here in the 1880s and 1890s, mostly from the United Kingdom. Next largest (again by my guesswork) wuld be the children of the post-war immigration boom from 1946 to about 1970 or so.

20% of Australians have some convict blood - usually a tiny admixture from a parent of a parent of a parent of a parent of a parent - but enough to claim some sort of pride of place as one of the Second Australians. (Very few of us can number ourselves among the First Australians - as I mentioned above, most of them died during the 19th Century.)

I have always firmly believed that it does not matter a damn which boat your ultimate ancestors came out on. You are who you are, and it is your own achievements in life that make you worthy or unworthy. I don't give a damn if your father came out on assisted passage from Scotland in 1952, or was a POW who stayed on in 1945, or paid his own fare in 1891, or jumped ship in 1851, or arrived by jumbo jet in 1985. We are all the same. It makes no difference.

Most of my g-g-g-parents arrived in the 1880s and 1890s, middle-class English people come to seek opportunity in a new land.

Who cares?

But a funny thing. Just last year, I happened to discover that one of my ancestors (a 64th or a 256th of my bloodline - I forget already) was transported to Tasmania for stealing a handkerchief in the 1830s or 1840s. And, to my own great surpise, I found myself feeling an intense satisfaction. Real convict blood! Bloody ripper!

I still feel the same way.

(I should be considerably more delighted to discover a trace of Aboriginal blood, but that seems most unlikely. No matter. At least some of me came here unwilling. I can look around me at the wholesale devestation that we Europeans have brought to this astonishingly beautiful continent and say "It ain't my fault! One-64th of me didn't ask to be sent here to do this!)
 

Tea

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Phew! Nice to have my own fur on again.

Are you going to get bact to the topic now, Tannin? Or are you just going to leave it like that, as an extended digression dragging the thread off-topic?

Oh. Well, fair enough then. I might have a crack at the actual thread topic myself in a moment, if you don't mind. But not till ater tea. Now that I'm back on the small-amount-but-not-nearly-enough diet, instead of that horrible food-free one, I'm taking tea-time pretty seriously again. Is there any pumpkin?
 

Howell

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A small correction, the year the US deslared its independence was 1776.

Also, Most of the people moved west either for land, gold or fur trapping.
 

Tea

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I knew that. Brain fade.

One iz left to assume that the day the US deslared its independence was a bit after the day that some fine an upsthanding young son invenered corm whishkey. :lol:
 

P5-133XL

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ddrueding said:
...a brain fard I decided to share :eekers:


Throughout history, when a disagreement arises in a civilized culture, the more forward-thinking group says "OK, you stay here...I'm leaving". This led people from Europe to the Eastern US, and then again to the western US. One of the more forward-thinking (liberal? Or just easy to adapt?) regions around. (hampered by the Natl. Govt. of course)

Where does Aus. stand in this theory? Considering the initial colonies wern't, erm, voluntary?

That is almost as good a theory as:

Through history, when a disagreement arises in a civilized culture, the more forward-thinking group (i.e. the group that writes the history texts) says "OK, you stay there...I'm coming to get you". This has led many a people to attempt genocide to wipe-out any possible disagreements. ...

P.S. I think my forward-looking theory will kill your forward-looking theory because my group will seek you out to destroy you while yours simply keeps running away and in the process keeps absorbing more and more of the world while the retreaters world gets smaller and smaller. There is a point where the most forward thinking group needs to stand-up and defend what they think is right rather than simply running away. That point is at the very start of the process.
 

Mercutio

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Great counter-example: Utah.
For that matter, the place that became the US was settled originally by austere puritans after the collapse of Cromwell's puritan government in Britain and after their religious practices were persecuted in probably the most socially advanced nation in Europe, Holland.
And, um, also the Trail of Tears, wherein Cherokee were re-settled en masse from their land in the southeast US (Georgia, NC) to Oklahoma. On foot, no less. It's a lot like the situation in Oz, except it was oil instead of gold that ultimately brought in "civilization".
 

its.fubar

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I believe that any situation is decided by the people being convinced that they are doing the right thing but this does not lead always to the right conclusion If you consider communism that was totally and absolutely misused but Marxism was in fact a good idea if you then go over to the other extreme republicans ideology you will also find this is being misused and the people being convinced they are doing the right thing.why is this situation a problem for all ideologies is it because the idea of you cannot criticize people that have positions higher than you when they use a statement such as ""you are not a team player " continue in this way and your services will not be needed"" does this setup a situation where most people only do a job and not care about what they are doing and if this is so will it ever be safe in the world because history has told us and proven to us the few people at the top do not have all the answers and frequently make a mess of it all.
 

Mercutio

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sechs said:
Are you saying that Utah is "forward-thinking?"

I'm saying it's not. I believe there are six places in the state where you can legally buy packaged liquors today, in 2004. Would anyone care to argue that Utah is anything but a theorcracy, or the relative merits of that theocracy?

By the same token, the strict mores of puritans were offensive to the extremely permissive society of 17th century Holland. I wouldn't call that forward thinking either.
 

sechs

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Com'on now. Everyone needs someplace to put their kingdom of god.

Don't be jealous just because the Mormons grabbed a whole state, while most only get compounds in Texas or South America.
 

flagreen

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The Puritans were English not Dutch. They were persecuted in England and emigrated to Holland to escape that persecution. For economic and cultural reasons (they feared being assimilated in to Dutch society) in addition to the fear that England was going to go to war with Holland they emigrated yet again to the New World. They were never persecuted in Holland.
 

Mercutio

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sechs: The LDS "kingdom of god", as I understand it, is in Independence, Missouri. Or that's where the second coming will happen. Or something. Those wacky mormons!

Bill, did you for some reason think I'm not aware of the origins of Puritans?
My understanding is that the cosmopolitan burghers of Amsterdam weren't really fond of them, and that was the ONLY cosmopolitan society in an era of religious warfare.
 

sechs

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If I recall correctly, Smith met with Jesus in upstate New York. And polygamy used to be okkay with them. Things change.
 

flagreen

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Mercutio said:
Bill, did you for some reason think I'm not aware of the origins of Puritans?
Not at all. I just happened to read something on the Puritans the other day and thought I would add my two cents worth to this thread.
 

Mercutio

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And African-type people couldn't get into heaven until their head guy had a "revelation" that maybe it was OK after all (around the same time that they realized polygamy was bad and while they were petitioning for statehood, as I recall).

Not what I'd call forward thinking people.

The Missouri thing? Their founder said it's going to be the center point for their second coming. Apparently, the rapture actually has an address, and after reading a bit on google, I even noticed that a spliter sect has a temple "around the corner" from the one used by the "main" church.

Weird.
 

sechs

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Any group of people who not only hoard items in preparation for the end times, despite supposing to be a chosen people, but also make boatloads of money off such, should be treated with some suspicion.
 

its.fubar

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Do you have to be forward looking people to believed in God or is it only for people that only wish to believe in yesterday's conformity ?

Is it also fair to say the religious people and politicians are just the same they all wish to control how people behave and think ?
 

Pradeep

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sechs said:
If I recall correctly, Smith met with Jesus in upstate New York. And polygamy used to be okkay with them. Things change.

Yeah that's just up the road from me. Hill Cummorah I believe they call it. They all flock to the place once a year for celebrations.
 
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