Rolls Royce Phantom

Buck

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For those interested and willing to endure a website littered with Flash content, I present the new Rolls Royce Phantom - released January 6, 2003.

Since Rolls Royce and Bentley have split up as of 2003, they've gone their own (owned by two different companies now, Volkswagen and BMW) competitive ways. The new Rolls Royce Phantom is a direct competitor (and better contender in my opinion) to the Maybach 62. Bentley is in its last year of production for the Azure, but the Arnage continues strong. We'll see what emerges from them in the near future to fend off the likes of Rolls Royce and Maybach.
 

CougTek

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But...the driver's wheel is on the wrong side.

I watched a T.V. evaluation of the Maybach by our local best renowned car journalist (Jacques Duval) and it won't be easy to do better. The only two points that left to be desired on the Maybach were its considerable weight and, of course, its high fuel consumption. I care for fuel economy a lot more for an environmental perspective than for the actual cost of the fuel.
 

LiamC

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For the cost of the Phantom, I would prefer an Audi RS6, E55 or BMW M5, & packet the change. But that's just me. I like to drive. :)
 

Prof.Wizard

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Nice car, Buck. Too bad we can't buy this car even if all SF members contributed to a great extent... :cry: :roll:
 

blakerwry

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I get a front page saying that the site "is currently unavailable"... as if they were doing work on it...
The page, nor the source reveils any server type of error.. so I thought they were just working on the site.
 

Buck

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Very strange. I visited the site again and it worked fine. It works even with a system that has never cached that page. Perhaps a refresh of your browser window or a reload would help? I don't know why it is doing that.


If you would like to compare cars, the Maybach can be found here at another Flash plagued website.
 

Handruin

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Buck said:
Very strange. I visited the site again and it worked fine. It works even with a system that has never cached that page. Perhaps a refresh of your browser window or a reload would help? I don't know why it is doing that.


If you would like to compare cars, the Maybach can be found here at another Flash plagued website.

The exterior of the car looks like a cross between an oldsmobile and a hyundia. The interior however looks great!

The engine has a ton of torque at such a low RMP.
 

Prof.Wizard

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If you go BOLDLY ENGINEERED -> Innovations you'll see the electronic equipment is neatly hided behind wooden sliding panels for the car not to lose any classic appeal... cool indeed!
 

Clocker

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I'd rather have the Cadillac 16. 1000HP V16 engine that gets 20mpg average (as tested on a cross-country run) using GM's Displacement on Demand technology.

http://ca.autos.yahoo.com/030106/11/r7df.html

They say they could build/sell it for $250K...who knows. It would be cool if they decided to do it (not that I could or would ever spend that much $ on a car).

DoD is incredible, btw. You really can't even tell it is working (until you get to the gas pump!)...I've tried it at work. DoD is much much better than past attempts at implementing this technology (about 15 years ago).

C
 

blakerwry

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Displacement on demand.... is that where they shut down some of the cylinders when torque isn't needed(like when cruising on the highway)?

That always sounded like a weird idea to me... but I guess it works for them.
 

Clocker

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blakerwry said:
Displacement on demand.... is that where they shut down some of the cylinders when torque isn't needed(like when cruising on the highway)?

That always sounded like a weird idea to me... but I guess it works for them.
Yep...that's it and it works. They have to do some interesting things (mechanically & electrontically) to maintain balance/smoothness but it is excellent.

C
 

Tea

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I'm afraid not, Your Holimess. Displacement on demand is where I'm sitting in the comfy chair in the office and Tannin pushes me out so that he can sit in it.

(Tea! What did you call Blakewry just now?)

(Relax. It was just a typo.)

(So who don't you fix it?)

(Don't want to.)

(Right then, you cheeky brat. You wanted to talk about displacement on demand? See that computer?)

(Err ... yes?)

(Well, watch ...)
 

jtr1962

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Clocker said:
I'd rather have the Cadillac 16. 1000HP V16 engine that gets 20mpg average (as tested on a cross-country run) using GM's Displacement on Demand technology.

Very interesting but WTF does anyone need 1000 HP for? At least anyone besides a locomotive engineer? I can imagine the performance figures for this- 0 to 60 in 1.5 seconds, top speed of 300 mph. Nice in the Indianapolis 500 but absolutely useless for real-world driving. Of course, at $250K it's not exactly like the roads will be full of these anyway, but the general idea might catch on, which would not be a good thing. Picture the highways full of aggressively driven 500 HP DOD SUVs. :eek: This is not a pretty picture. These jerks get into enough trouble as it is with 200 HP. I recently had an idea about governing down the maximum speed of a vehicle by law according to it's fuel economy, and figured 35 mph would be about right for SUVs. This would certainly make them much less popular as they couldn't do the minimum legal speed on most highways. And by the same token very fuel efficient and/or zero emission vehicles would not be governed, and would be allowed to go at the design speed of the highways they were on, which is 100 mph for most of the Interstate Highway System IIRC.

With proper aerodynamics and some sort of energy storage system for quick but short bursts of acceleration, no car fit for real-world driving needs more than 50 HP. For pete's sake, my bicycle provides adequate performance to keep up with most NYC traffic, and it's specs are ~1/3 HP continuous, 1 HP peak(until rider gets tired ;) ) I could take one of those HPVs(human powered vehicles) that a healthy rider can pedal up to 70 mph, put in a 5 HP lawnmower engine and proper gearing, and I'll be able to keep up with even fast Interstate traffic. Buses and trucks need hundreds of HP, trains need thousands, cars need a few dozen at most.

BTW, wasn't there a car that had DOD about ten years ago? It never really caught on from what my brother was telling me. He claims it didn't make that big of a difference in mileage, and broke down too often.
 

Clocker

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We'll be having many models with DoD in the very near future, jrt. Just just conecpts like the V16. Trucks in 2003 or 2004 as well as many other vehicles shortly thereafter....

C
 

jtr1962

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Clocker said:
We'll be having many models with DoD in the very near future, jrt. Just just conecpts like the V16. Trucks in 2003 or 2004 as well as many other vehicles shortly thereafter....

That's certainly good news. Anything that improves fuel economy but is transparent to the driver is good news in my book. What kind of mileage improvement does DoD give on a heavy truck or bus, BTW?
 

Clocker

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Let me put it too you this way... the 13.6L 1000HP Cadillac V16 got 20mpg cross country using DoD.

C
 

Tannin

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There was indeed such a vechicle (ztupid word, I never can spell it even when I try it Tea-ztyle) ... er .. such a car not so long ago. It was a Caddy, I think, or one of the big GM models at any rate, and it came out not too long after the oil shocks in the early Seventies, as part of Detroit's initial panic-stricken response to both the rise in oil prices and the vastly better quality of both design and manufacture that the Japanese makers had. Call it about 1979 or so. It was a V8 which switched off four cylinders. I can't remember now if it physically disconnected them or simply used some sort ot trick to shut off fuel supply and hold the valves open while the whole great mass continued to reciprocate, chewing up lots of wasted fuel in frictional losses - that latter, I think. Either way, it still had appalling fuel consumption despite the tricks, not to mention a reputation for unreliability, and while I don't think they had to recall them, they dissapeared off the market very rapidly once the word got around.

We won't blame you for that one, Clocker. You were probably still engineering ways to get out of your play-pen at the time. :)
 

Clocker

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Yeah, that and the Cadillac Cimarron were two gross injustices to the automotive world. This time around...it is totally different. :)
 

Handruin

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I wonder what happened to Saabs variable compression idea. I remember reading about it in a magazine a while back and thought it was a nifty idea. I'll have to dig up a link to show. (while typing this post I found it here.)

Something about spending $250K on a cadillac doesn't make sense. I read something about an acura concept vehicle that implemented electric motors for the front wheels and a high performance v-6 for the rear. The car would have around 400 (combined) horse power utilizing a combination of electric and gas. The car would switch to electric motor when cruising on the highway for increased fuel economy.

Read more here
 

CougTek

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The best idea I ever saw for powering a car was the electric motor-wheel developped by Hydro-Québec some 8 years ago. But something screwed up during the development and although it worked perfectly fine (only two wheels could pushed a big Chrysler Intrepid from 0-60mph in 8 sec, imagine four), they apparently dropped the project. Many people are still revolted that Hydro-Québec decided to cancel the motor-wheel, since it was the only electric-based motorisation that was powerful enough to bring decent performances for average-sized cars. I'm pretty sure some big oil company put pressure on Hydro-Québec in a way or another (wouldn't be surprised if it was Esso, bunch of bastards) to put the motor-wheel in the grave.

The principle of the motor-wheel was, at large, to make the wheel spinning by injecting an electrical current in coils placed inside the wheel. They were able to apply 3 times more pressure on the wheel with their prototype than a Ferrari of the mid nineties.

Hydro-Québec still owns the patent for a few years, but nothing good will come out of it. It would have been so great. I have no words to describe the idiocrity of the manager who decided to cancel the project.
 

jtr1962

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I'm guessing it was pressure from some oil company to drop the project since it would have greatly decreased demand for fossil fuels. The idiot that dropped it should be made to suck on an exhaust pipe until he croaks.

I too have often wondered why we don't just do away with the mechanical transmission in road vehicles and power cars via electric motors in the wheels powered by either a battery, an engine powered generator, or solar cells(or some combination of all three). The battery will provide stored power upon demand for quick bursts of acceleration, the gas engine power for steady cruising(and to recharge the battery), and solar panels will supplement the output of the gas engine. I'd guess that you could run the car at moderate cruising speeds entirely on solar power on bright days, and at highway speeds you would still get perhaps a third of your power via the sun. Other times the engine will supply the power, but it can be a much smaller engine, and since it will run at it's most efficient RPM rather than constantly speeding up/slowing down, it will be smaller as well as run more efficiently. 100 mpg is not unrealistic from such a setup, and perhaps 150 to 200 mpg once ultra-efficient solar cells are available. Small wonder the oil companies likely killed it as it eventually would bring the demand for gas to 10 to 15% of what it is now.

Electric motors are the best way to power vehicles. Some commuter trains I used to take had a 250 HP electric motor on each axle(1000 HP per car). These were able to accelerate a train of cars of 61 tons(plus passenger load) each up to 80 mph from a dead stop in under a minute(0 to 60 took about 35 seconds). Now imagine what 100 HP of electric motors on a 1 ton car can do. My best estimate is 0 to 60 mph in about 6 seconds. Electric motors can also be overloaded at twice or more of their rated capacity for a few minutes so you can easily cut that figure in half if you can hit the battery for the extra juice. 8) I don't think you can do better than about 3 seconds due to the limits of tire-road adhesion. For the same reasons it is difficult to get a train up to 60 mph in much less than about 25 seconds, even if power is unlimited(which it never is).
 

jtr1962

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I also forgot to add that electric motors have two more advantages. They are much more amenable to being precisely controlled, so that antislip traction control on rain, snow, and ice works much better than current implementations. In fact, locomotives use a carefully controlled small amount of slip to maximize their traction. Cars can do likewise with electric motors. Second and more important, the electric motors can function as generators, and can be used to stop the car instead of brakes. This eliminates wear and tear on the brake shoes(which incidentally only serve as backup in case the motors fail) and most importantly the kinetic energy is recovered and stored in the battery. In stop and go traffic the energy savings can be enormous. So many advantages, and the electronics to do this have existed for at least a decade that I can think of no good reason why this isn't done now other than pressure from the oil companies not to.
 

Clocker

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What irks me sometimes is that sometimes people think that electric vehicles will solve all the polution problems in the US and eliminate our dependance on oil. In some cases, these are probably the very people who think the electric energy they are using is just generated by the wall socket they are plugging into! :) Present company excluded!! All that electric energy needs to come from powerplant that pollute too!

With nuclear power not being envogue and the fact that all methods of mass electric power consumption (that I can think of, anyway) produce pollution we need to focus (as we are) on continuing to clean up gas & diesel engines and (longer term) focus on fuel cells.

Anyway, this thread is degenerating into something off topic. !! Let's start a new thread if we want to talk about pollution!!! :)

I think the Mazda 350Z is sweet! I sat in one at the NAIAS black-tie event Friday night and I thought it was coo!

I also saw the Pontiac GTO. I love it! A a re-styled Holden Monaro CV8 (with Corvette V8, Holden is part of GM). 0-60 in under 6 seconds and a stylish coupe! This is really the type of car I have wanted from GM....I might get one if I can get on the list. Only about 16,000 will be made for the US this year though.

http://www.poc-uk.org/HTML/News/20020507_GTO.htm

2004_Pontiac_GTO_01.jpg
 

Tannin

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OK, I'm trespassing on Clocker's specialty here, but I can see two huge problems with the electric motor-wheel.

1: The Holy Grail of suspension engineering is to have the maximum possible ratio of sprung to unsprung weight. The more weight you put into the wheels (or anything attached to them), the worse the ride and handling becomes. This is why better-quality cars have alloy wheels, because they can be made lighter than steel wheels. This is why most RWD cars go to a great deal of expense and complication to have two seperate flexible connections between differential and wheels (with the diff being more-or-less firmly bolted to the (sprung) chassis instead of simply making the heavy differential/axle/wheels combination in a single unit. To be effective, a motorised wheel must not only be strong and durable, it must also be very light. I have now idea how you are supposed to make an electric motor without using a lot of copper wire (or some suitable substitute). Of course, you could simply add a few hundred kilos of compensating weight to the body of the vehicle to preserve the sprung/unsprung weight ratio, and blow the fuel economy advantages you were looking for in the first place.

2: Making a powerful motor is not the problem. It's making a powerful enough battery that is the tricky bit. Storing a good healthy dose of EMF takes a lot of kilos, even if you use the latest high-tech battery technology. (Ever bought a eplacement laptop computer battery? Remember how your credit card felt? Now multiply by at least 1000.)

3: Forget (3), I think Clocker just did (3) while I was typing (1) and (2).
 

jtr1962

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Clocker said:
What irks me sometimes is that sometimes people think that electric vehicles will solve all the polution problems in the US and eliminate our dependance on oil.

They won't solve all our problems, but they will let us get more mpg than current vehicles do. Long term, once we find better batteries and fusion becomes viable, we won't need fossil fuels any more. And that could be within ten years if we put our minds to it.

With nuclear power not being envogue and the fact that all methods of mass electric power consumption (that I can think of, anyway) produce pollution we need to focus (as we are) on continuing to clean up gas & diesel engines and (longer term) focus on fuel cells.

Hydroelectric, wind, geothermal, and solar don't pollute. Nuclear power might be making a comeback soon since the newer plants are much safer than older ones. In my opinion it got a bad rap after Chernobyl and Three Mile Island. Fusion is of course a much safer alternative, but as long as big oil controls both parties, we won't be pouring significant funds into fusion research. Were fusion to become commercially viable, within five years you wouldn't be able to give away a gallon of gas. For all the talk about how much cleaner gas engines are now, it still stinks when a car goes by, or when I'm riding in one.

Fuel cells may not pollute directly, but I was rather disconcerted when I heard that they would still use fossil fuels to obtain their hydrogen, and thus the refineries would still spew their junk into the air. Ultimately nothing except electric motors and solar cells(or batteries charged via non-fossil fuel plants) will do, and I hope we get there within ten years because I'm sick and tired of breathing carcinogens. Plus I can think of no better way to get back at all those Arab countries that hate us than by telling them that we no longer need to buy your oil.

Anyway, this thread is degenerating into something off topic. !! Let's start a new thread if we want to talk about pollution!!! :)

Not a bad idea but I think it got off-topic after the mention of the fuel savings of the Cadillac with DoD. And guess who brought that up. ;) Anyway, most of the threads here end up severely off-topic after about ten or so replies, and it doesn't seem to cause any problems that I'm aware of. I think we can all agree that pollution is bad and something must be done about it before we all choke to death on fumes.
 

Clocker

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Yeah I thought about wind and solar but they don't realy have the power density to be practical (as evidence by their limited use).

I think hydroelectric power is great although you will find many environmentalists who think it is the worst thing ever.

Never really though about geothermal although a friend uses something like that to heat his house.

What do you think of that GTO? :)

C
 

jtr1962

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Clocker said:
What do you think of that GTO? :)

I think it's a nice change from today's world of mostly look-alike cars, and something I might not mind owning if I absolutely had to have a car. It's similar to my brother's Mark VIII, which is also a change of pace from the endless tide of ugly econoboxes, SUVs, minivans, and family sedans. Other everyday vehicles I find an interesting change are the new VW Beetle and the PT Cruiser(I think it's ugly but at least it's different). Of course, I like the exotic stuff at car shows, too, but who doesn't.

Unlike most of the people here, the vehicle I would most want to own isn't even a car at all. It's the French TGV, which comes in many variants. The original orange TGV-Sud-Est, the grey TGV Atlantique and Reseau, the red TGV Thalys, the TGV Duplex, etc. You can read all about it here: http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/tgv/tgvindex.html

Just think how it would feel driving something with 12,000 HP under the hood, and with a top speed well in excess of 200 mph! And weighing ~500 tons to boot. It can all be yours for the bargain price of ~$25 million per trainset plus a few billion more for the right-of-way to run it on.

Boy, can I sure take a thread off-topic in a hurry! :mrgrn:
 

Tea

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There are three big problems with hydro power, Clocker:

1) It comes nowhere near to dealing with the power demands of typical Western civilisations. Bar a couple of weirdo countries with more snowfields and fiords than they have people (zorry JoJo), hydro is only capable of providing a small single-digit percentage of the total energy demand. even if we damn every single watercourse down to the size of a two-inch pipe.

2) Hydro schemes are incredibly destructive of riverine environments. There is a whole rich world down there under the water, enormously diverse and complex, which we never see. And another source of richness and critically important biodiversity in the above-surface riverine fauna and flora. Hydro schemes, as a rule, are terribly destructive of both. Over on Storage Review a while ago, in the Vegetarian thread, Tannin listed a huge number of vertabrate extinctions in the USA: dig it out and look at all the species killed off forever by hydro schenes in the USA.

3) Hydro schemes, in the long-term, cost a phenomenal amount of money. I'm not talking about the capital expenditure to build the thing here (although that is certainly not insignificant), rather I'm talking about the total-cost-of-project economics in the long term, after the loan to build the dam is paid off.

On the plus side, you get some cheap electric power, some extra water storage, and maybe a minor tourist attraction. On the minus side are the long-term economic effects. You lose the tourist attraction of the wild river valley (which, averaged out, more than makes up for the dubious attractions of the artificial lake), you lose the enormous economic benefit of the river system's natural silt-flow, which (before you dam it) spreads fresh, fertile topsoil over the entire floodplain, and makes riverine floodplains the most productive soil per-acre on earth. Then you lose the benefit of the inland fisheries (which in wet climates, like that of the USA or Europe can be substantial), and the enormous economic resource of the offshore fisheries, which, being denied the benefits of the clean nutrient that used to flow down the river in flood times, gradually decline. Consider, for example, the death of the Mediteranian sardine industry, which used to employ thousand upon thousands of people and feed millions before the damming of the Nile at Aswan. Now, it is dead. The Nile delta fisheries are defunct. It's the same wherever you go: the Murray River in South Australia, the Snowy in Victoria, and - yes - the Missippi or however you zpell it. The Mississipi now just flows in a relative trickle, without the cleansing of the annual floods, and the water it delivers to the Gulf is choked with nitrates (run-off from over-irrigated, over-fertilised farms). As a result, the Gulf of Mexico fishing industry has been decimated.

Finally, most of the water from the hydro schemes is used for irrigation. In many places, this brings short-term riches. The oranges of the Australian Riverina and of California are evidence of this. But as time goes by, the constant provision of extra water to grow crops does two things: it raises the underground water-table (because it's constant, not just a once or twice a year thing), and it leaches salts and minerals out of the topsoil. These are washed down into the groundwater, and when the groundwater gets high enough (as it almost inevitably does), the land turns into desert. You can't grow anything on it, no matter how much water you add. The only way to fix it is to stop irrigating, revegetate groundwater recharge areas on the surrounding hills, let the river flow free again to coat the sterile soil in life-giving silt once a year, and wait. It doesen't take long by geological standards. A thousand yours or so is plenty.

Like so much else you stupid humans do, hydro schemes are a clasic example of blinkered short-term thinking, of hocking the future to pay for present gains (much of which is wasted), of spending your capital instead of investing it wisely and living off the interest.
 

Tea

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Whooah! How could I have forgot the worst bit?

You looked at an atlas lately? Or taken in some film of the countryside of Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Lebanon and Israel? (I think I'm safe in saying you have seen some recently, Clocker.:wink:) Seen the countryside? Does it remind you of Arizona? Well, 11,000 years ago it was one of the most fertile places on earth. So fertile, in fact, that Ekaf's and NRG's ancestors - yes, and even Prof. Wizard's too - were catapulted into a 3000 year technological lead over everyone else on the planet. Well, 3000 years in front of Egypt and China, more like 5000 years over Europe and 8000 years over America. This was the very best place on the whole earth, and mighty empires arose in it: Babylon, the Assyrians, Ur. They were doing irrigation of their fields and building cities, inventing writing and mathematics and astronomy and the wheel and warfare when Americans and Australians and Africans and Europeans and even the Chinese were still hunting with spears and fighting with the flies and the hyenas over who got first dibs on a day-old carcass rotting in the sun.

Why? Because their environment was so rich.

Have you seen it lately?

That's what happens when you start building irrigation systems without knowing what you are doing.

Maybe you've seen footage of the Marsh Arabs, yes? Pretty dam good spot they have there, is it not? Wonderfully rich place, the Tigris-Euphrates delta. At least it used to be. Sadam has dammed the rivers now, because he is terminally stupid, and now the marshes are dying, and with them the last remnant of the Fertile Crescent, the land that may also be known to you from your Bible Study. In the Bible it has a different name: the Garden of Eden.

But actually, that's a bit of a misnomer. The real Garden of Eden is long gone. They cut down all the trees and irrigated their fields to grow the wheat to feed the mighty cities - the first cities on earth - and within just a few hundred years they couldn't grow wheat anymore because the soil was too salty. So they turned to growing barley because barley tolerates salt beter than wheat does, even though it has lower yields and is poor in protein. But that too started dying after a few more years. With the economy in ruins, they were easy prey to the horsemen from the east (where Iran and India are today). The horsemen settled down and found new places to plough (further up the valleys) and built still bigger irrigation systems to take water still further away from the rivers before they too destroyed the environment that sustained them and they too became just the dust of history.

Their topsoil had all blown away, and been washed down the twin rivers to the sea. And that is where the Marsh Arabs live today: on top of the topsoil that has washed down from the tree-bare hills. The soil in the Tigris-Euphrates delta is incredibly deep, so deep in fact that it goes well down below sea-level (not that good soil is any use when it's under salt water, of course. The one remaining area of the Fertile Crescent of old, the only part of that entire immense garden that was bigger than most countries in Europe, is, in fact, artificial. In the 11,000 years since you stupid humans started cutting the trees down and irrigating your pastures, the soil of the Fertile Crescent has washed down the river and into the Persian Gulf, a little more every year, until now, when the pile of washed-down topsoil has pushed bach the waves for 200 likometres. Yes, most of Iraq's farmland is actually where the sea used to be.
 

LiamC

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Clocker, the USA will get about 20 000 first year, but shipments aren't due until later this year. Last I heard, reaction to the GTO was good and they doubled their order to around 40K, but without a new paint shop (that's the bottleneck), Holden can't build them - well they can build 'em, but can't paint 'em.

The U.K has shown interest so it's up to the numbers people now...
 
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