surge protectors: The neglected topic

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,275
Location
I am omnipresent
Never in all my time on any site have I ever seen a discussion about surge protectors.

We all need them. We all have them. I only have actual UPSes on 2/3s of my machines. The rest have a variety of crummy, $15 surge protectors, exactly none of which are particularly well suited for the job they do.

Anyone want to speak up and identify a good surge protector? Or at least a better one than the $15 Belkin "Home" models I've been buying?
 

Groltz

My demeaning user rank is
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
1,295
Location
Pierce County, WA
Mercutio said:
Never in all my time on any site have I ever seen a discussion about surge protectors.

We all need them. We all have them. I only have actual UPSes on 2/3s of my machines. The rest have a variety of crummy, $15 surge protectors, exactly none of which are particularly well suited for the job they do.

Anyone want to speak up and identify a good surge protector? Or at least a better one than the $15 Belkin "Home" models I've been buying?

We had a thread with at least 25 posts on this topic back in pre-disaster SR. It contained talk about UPS batteries going bad/rupturing, good UPS brands, etc. Not that it helps here.

I like products made by Tripp Lite. My computer is powered through a LC2400 line condtioner.
 

blakerwry

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Oct 12, 2002
Messages
4,203
Location
Kansas City, USA
Website
justblake.com
I've never had enough 'spare' cash to buy a UPS... my power is pretty good around here anyway... I have never really had a need for anything better than a sub $40 surge protector.
 

jtr1962

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
4,375
Location
Flushing, New York
Unfortunately, the thread you're referring to isn't among my saved threads but this is a topic which is rarely discussed, and it's a pity because any electronic equipment is only as good as the power supply going to it.

I've personally never had any need for anything more expensive than $15. From what I've seen, "dirty" power becomes more of an issue the further you get away large cities since there are far fewer paths to dissipate lightning strikes. Thus, each strike ends up affecting those in proximity far more severely. My sister in Long Island has already lost a TV and VCR to power surges. So far her PC is OK, probably because it's on a surge protector. Getting a whole-house surge suppressor isn't a bad idea if you live in a rural or suburban location as a first line of defense. I'm not sure if it pays in the city. I just haven't had any power issues so far in the four years I've had PCs. I did have an Amstrad PC rendered inoperable due to surges around 1995, but I don't think I had a surge suppressor of any kind, and the problem was that it was on the same line as my attic fan, which is a huge source of electrical noise, especially when starting. I've since corrected the problem by running another line to my bedroom just for my PCs and air conditioner, and using two fairly cheap surge suppressors in series(1st and 2nd lines of defense). The AC is a small modern unit that doesn't make much electrical noise, so having it the same line doesn't present a problem.

Therefore, what I think it boils down to is that it doesn't hurt to get a good quality surge suppressor/UPS, but if you live in a large city and are short on cash, you can probably be safe with one of the $10 ones, especially if it's sold through one of the major PC parts distributors, like JDR Computer Products or Cyberguys. There is no excuse for not having one at all, though. :nono:
 

P5-133XL

Xmas '97
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,173
Location
Salem, Or
I don't know that I've ever had to buy a Power-strip: Just visit the mini-seminars put on by APC/best/etc and with each you'll get a free one.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,275
Location
I am omnipresent
I've found that most surge protectors are less than ideal for computer equipment because of either poor positioning of the plugs (ever have a wall-wart take up three outlets on a surge protector?), having cords that are simply too short or because the on/off switch is too easy to trip.

Plus I couldn't get to sleep last night and I stared at a surge protector for about 20 minutes.
 

Fushigi

Storage Is My Life
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
2,890
Location
Illinois, USA
I use a mix of surge strips & UPSes. I use an APC SmartUPS 1000XL (or XL1000; whatever) for my PC / monitor / WAP / cordless phone base station / Palm cradle and an older APC BackUPS 450 for my wife's PC / monitor.

My printer & speakers (devices that should not be powered by a UPS) are on a DataShield surge protector from circa 1984. The good is that it still works after 18 years. The bad is it trips & shuts off (by design) when a surge or severe drop occurs. Using it for peripherals is fine since they aren't harmed by the shutoff but I can't really use it for the main CPU. I've replaced it's internal fuse once; otherwise it just works.

My wife's speakers / digi cam charger / Palm cradle are on a basic Fellows surge strip. Probably got it at OfficeMax with a rebate or somesuch.

Nothing fancy and nothing purchased recently with regards to power protection. The battery in the 1000XL was replaced awhile back.

Oh, the house itself has 200 amp service so I'm not going to overload the household circuitry anytime soon.

- Fushigi
 

mubs

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Nov 22, 2002
Messages
4,908
Location
Somewhere in time.
Plus I couldn't get to sleep last night and I stared at a surge protector for about 20 minutes.

That explains this post!

jtr1962, you can have really bad power inside cities too--especially if you're in an older industrial area with huge machines that cause severe flutucations in the power in surrounding areas with variation in their load. One place I worked at years ago had a newer PC that kept freezing up (this was soon after I started to work there). I must have spent several days checking it out, replacing RAM, etc. Then on a whim I stuck in a Belkin $20 surge-protector / power strip between the PC and the wall outlet, and voila! stable as a rock! I would never have believed this if I hadn't seen it with mah own eyes! Later, an engineer who worked in the same building told me he had known about bad power there for years (he had been there a lot longer that I). He would stick a meter into a wall outlet and watch it all day--the voltage would fluctuate between 85 and 147!

I've been a believer ever since.
 

Buck

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Messages
4,514
Location
Blurry.
Website
www.hlmcompany.com
mubs said:
Plus I couldn't get to sleep last night and I stared at a surge protector for about 20 minutes.

That explains this post!

jtr1962, you can have really bad power inside cities too--especially if you're in an older industrial area with huge machines that cause severe flutucations in the power in surrounding areas with variation in their load. One place I worked at years ago had a newer PC that kept freezing up (this was soon after I started to work there). I must have spent several days checking it out, replacing RAM, etc. Then on a whim I stuck in a Belkin $20 surge-protector / power strip between the PC and the wall outlet, and voila! stable as a rock! I would never have believed this if I hadn't seen it with mah own eyes! Later, an engineer who worked in the same building told me he had known about bad power there for years (he had been there a lot longer that I). He would stick a meter into a wall outlet and watch it all day--the voltage would fluctuate between 85 and 147!

I've been a believer ever since.

Mubs, that type of voltage fluctuation does not dictate that the entire neighborhood was bad. That type of fluctuation could easily be shop specific or more-so, panel specific. What were the loads on that circuit? Was it a sub panel or main panel for the shop and what were its loads? There are too many variables to simply state that a city or rural town has a poor feed until you begin measuring power fluctuation street-side.
 

Cliptin

Wannabe Storage Freak
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
1,206
Location
St. Elmo, TN
Website
www.whstrain.us
Buck said:
Mubs, that type of voltage fluctuation does not dictate that the entire neighborhood was bad. That type of fluctuation could easily be shop specific or more-so, panel specific. What were the loads on that circuit? Was it a sub panel or main panel for the shop and what were its loads? There are too many variables to simply state that a city or rural town has a poor feed until you begin measuring power fluctuation street-side.

Mubs was just saying that poor power is not relegated to rural areas but that there are circumstances inside cities that would lead to poor/fluctuating power also. Frankly, I'd rather be twenty miles outside of town and three from the nearest sub-station than live in an industrial area.
 

Pradeep

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
3,845
Location
Runny glass
I'm using a Conexant (made by APC) 900VA UPS. It signals the OS via serial cable, appearing as an APC BackUPS. The dual athy, laptop, Dell 2000FP and Sony 21" sit on it. It has two sockets on cords to prevent plug pack hogging of the other sockets. Works good.
 

Cliptin

Wannabe Storage Freak
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
1,206
Location
St. Elmo, TN
Website
www.whstrain.us
Opti-UPS used to recommend not using a powerstrip costing more than ~$20 with their UPSs (on the battery side). The explaination was that a powerstrip costing more than that was actually a surge suppressor and did not play well with the UPS.

Now they say this:
Q: I need to connect more items to the UPS than there are outlets. Can a power strip be used with your UPS?

A: Yes, under some conditions. If your UPS is sine-wave type, you can use power strip with no problem. If your UPS is step-wave type, please use the power strip without the function of surge protection.

They also have a new chart to determine UPS runtime.

(Disclosure: I have three Opti-UPS: 1440, 650, 500.) :)

There is a difference between surge suppressors, surge protectors and power strips.

You could use something like this to fend off the wall warts. This is SKU 012658 at microcenter.com. Made by Inland. Two other models are SKUs 486688 and 822502. (I was not able to find any of these products using their search engine.)

PS. How small does a picture need to be to not offend :) you , Merc?
 

The Grammar Police

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
May 30, 2002
Messages
124
Location
We are everywhere!
There is something rather beautiful about this thread title. It is redolant with echoes of those long forgotten small ads in the back of Sixties tabloid glossies like Australasian Post - spiritual home of the undiscovered Abominable Snowman in suburban Glen Waverly, or the country grandmother with 4317 different garden gnomes in her wooden shed - that discreetly suggest the reader consider a cure for piles or seek help with intimate odour.
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,275
Location
I am omnipresent
The power plants where I used to work actually had seperate circuits for office equipment, from outside the plant to prevent those kinds of problems.
 

mubs

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Nov 22, 2002
Messages
4,908
Location
Somewhere in time.
Thanks Cliptin--you clarified my point the way I would have.

Gwammar Povice: There ain't no such thing as "intimate odour".

(I'm asking for it, no? Talking to the Gwammar Povice in this fashion!)
 

The Grammar Police

Learning Storage Performance
Joined
May 30, 2002
Messages
124
Location
We are everywhere!
Perhaps so, Mubs. On the other hand, I can't say I've met too many Abominable Snowmen in Glen Waverley either. Just as well my colleague The Spelling Police is off on sick leave at present. :)
 

CityK

Storage Freak Apprentice
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
1,719
This article is a little long but might be of interest.

We had a thread with at least 25 posts on this topic back in pre-disaster SR. It contained talk about UPS batteries going bad/rupturing, good UPS brands
I think I remember that one...did it also contain some links to some cable line surge suppressors?....I may have it somewhere...but would have to dig.

Cheers, CK
 

Mercutio

Fatwah on Western Digital
Joined
Jan 17, 2002
Messages
22,275
Location
I am omnipresent
PS. How small does a picture need to be to not offend :) you , Merc?

That depends on how many scantily clad women are in the photo. 8)

If I choose to look at an image, I really don't care how big it is. I'll go do other things while it loads. The point where I have a problem is when there's upteen million embedded images or just a couple of really craptastic large files (e.g SR's photos of hard drives), or worst of all, images that don't relate to the content I'm viewing.

The extension cable thing in the photo looks like it'd just be one more cable someone would have to figure out how to tidy up.

Someday we'll have to do a "back of the PC cable management" topic, too...
 

Clocker

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 14, 2002
Messages
3,554
Location
USA
Pradeep said:
I'm using a Conexant (made by APC) 900VA UPS. It signals the OS via serial cable, appearing as an APC BackUPS. The dual athy, laptop, Dell 2000FP and Sony 21" sit on it. It has two sockets on cords to prevent plug pack hogging of the other sockets. Works good.

I have the same one. Got it from CompUSA for $79 (or was it $89). Works great with my dually and 19" monitor. I wish their website didn't suck though...

C
 

blakerwry

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Oct 12, 2002
Messages
4,203
Location
Kansas City, USA
Website
justblake.com
There is a difference between surge suppressors, surge protectors and power strips.


Just what exactly is the difference?

I know that some power strips are basically just splitters and offer no type of protection, but what is the difference between a surge suppressor and a surge protector?
 

Cliptin

Wannabe Storage Freak
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
1,206
Location
St. Elmo, TN
Website
www.whstrain.us
blakerwry said:
There is a difference between surge suppressors, surge protectors and power strips.


Just what exactly is the difference?

I know that some power strips are basically just splitters and offer no type of protection, but what is the difference between a surge suppressor and a surge protector?

A surge protector is basically a power strip with a fuse. This type would protect you from a massive power spike one might expect from lightning but have no effect up to that point. The surge suppressor has a fuse and filters (made from capacitors and inductors and other assorted bits or semiconductors) inside. They will even out the voltage and current from a voltage spike but not do very much for a prolonged (more than ~.5s or less) bounce.

There are some UL listings to look at: http://www.howstuffworks.com/surge-protector7.htm
 

Buck

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Messages
4,514
Location
Blurry.
Website
www.hlmcompany.com
The Grammar Police said:
Perhaps so, Mubs. On the other hand, I can't say I've met too many Abominable Snowmen in Glen Waverley either. Just as well my colleague The Spelling Police is off on sick leave at present. :)

Has The Spelling Police ever shown their face?
 

time

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
4,932
Location
Brisbane, Oz
Surge protectors are a wonderful invention that effortlessly part people from their money. They're useless, of course.

1. "Filtering" - all that nasty noise doesn't have a hope of getting through a regulated power supply, so it's pointless adding an external filter. Your mains power is already crackling with various communications signals from the power company, or in some cases broadband internet access! It doesn't bother the appliances.

An unregulated power supply, say a simple transformer-rectifier combo, can indeed pass glitches, so you may hear the snap, crackle and pop from a dirty appliance on your old stereo.

2. "Transients" - again, a regulated power supply, particularly a switching mode unit as found in any modern electronic gear, is relatively impervious to short duration glitches. The quality of the power supply can dictate how long a transient dip or spike can be managed. Have a look at the capacitors in your power supply. Big, aren't they? Now have a look in your surge suppressor. :(

3. "Lightning" - Let's get this clear. If lightning strikes your neigbourhood transformer or even closer, none of this junk is likely to help. Would you fly a kite in a storm holding a surge suppressor to protect you?

All these tests that blithely claim 4000V protection overlook the behaviour of electricity with the voltages associated with lightning, which starts to lose interest in copper wire and chooses any damn path it feels like. We're talking incinerated appliances, not sedately blown fuses.

Having said that, you might be lucky: the surge suppressor might stop a surge that is within its range but beyond what your equipment can tolerate. But then, you would be very unlucky in the first place to get such a strike.

True lightning protection has to be installed where the power enters the building, and it certainly doesn't take the form of a $15 surge suppressor.

4. "Overvoltage and undervoltage" - now this is more serious. In Oz for example, the nominal supply is 240V and can easily drift up to 260V. Much computer equipment is dual voltage, switchable to 110V or 220V. So power supplies may have to cope with 20% overvoltage day after day. Cheaper equipment is more likely to fail, plus any sustained transient may more easily push it over the edge.

And then there's undervoltage, or "brownouts". This is bad. Good for killing hard disks and God knows what else. This is what we have a UPS (or power conditioner) for. You only need a standby system for blackouts, but a power conditioner provides "buck" and "boost".

Having said all that, the average "powerpack" is just a transformer and rectifier, which makes it pretty easy to harm external modems etc. And cheaper equipment does seem to be more susceptible.

Now this rant was just off the top of my head, so feel free to search the web for scientific testing that proves me wrong. That would have to include suppressors actually protecting real equipment, not just a demonstration that they can shunt 4000V for 10mS.

Cheers!
 

Adcadet

Storage Freak
Joined
Jan 14, 2002
Messages
1,861
Location
44.8, -91.5
Here in the lab we need to run some small pumps 24/7 for months straight. They deliver drug to rats that, by the time we're all done, have easily cost us in excess of $5,000 a piece, and we typically have 4 rats attached to each pump with up to 4 pumps in our main animal room. For a pump to stop on day 57 of a 60 day experiment is painful to say the least. That's why we run a small APC. We figure our building's power is just fine to run the pumps (no conditioning needed), but a powerfailure will make the pump stop and it won't get noticed until morning when it will be too late. Plus it throws the rats into withdrawal, and they hate that.
 

Tea

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,749
Location
27a No Fixed Address, Oz.
Website
www.redhill.net.au
Bahhh. Scientists! Not enough brain to come in out of the rain, half of them. What on earth do you think you need an expensive, unreliable UPS for, Adcadet?



What you need



is a small generator



and



one



of



these:





ham07a.jpg




PS: if you are not getting enough power, simply add a little methamphetamine to the pumping system.
 

Adcadet

Storage Freak
Joined
Jan 14, 2002
Messages
1,861
Location
44.8, -91.5
Pradeep said:
e_dawg said:
Heh, you got those rats strung out on acetylated morphine, Adcadet?

At least he's given up on blowing pot smoke up pigs vaginas! :mrgrn:

Yes, no more pot in the uterus. Though I do have* to do some interesting things these days. I'm working with the guy developing the nicotine vaccine, and I am looking to see if we can use it to prevent fetal nicotine exposure. So I've had* to do things like videotape rats having sex - using an IR camera system. I've also done more vaginal smears/pap tests than I like to think about. I can also detect rat sex by smell alone now.

I've got a little info here for your enjoyment: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~calv0016/research.html

*I do love the work, and it is a free choice afterall.
 

Adcadet

Storage Freak
Joined
Jan 14, 2002
Messages
1,861
Location
44.8, -91.5
e_dawg said:
Heh, you got those rats strung out on acetylated morphine, Adcadet?

Uh, no. I'm into nicotine now. Never been into diacylmorphine (heroine, I assume this is what you are referring to), though I've used some selective opiate agonists before (for research). Though some of my co-workers use cocaine as a positive control occasionally.
 

Adcadet

Storage Freak
Joined
Jan 14, 2002
Messages
1,861
Location
44.8, -91.5
Tea - regarding your suggestion:

I will bring that up to our attending veterinarian. It costs us $0.94/day/rat, and I'm sure it would be about the same for a rodent such as the one you pictured. So I bet our UPS is a bit cheaper in the long run. But I have no doubt your method is actually far superior. In addition to adding a little methamphetamine, I could always just get a dual hampster system (or higher if need be, but I doubt I'll need that much power anytime soon.[/i]
 

Tea

Storage? I am Storage!
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
3,749
Location
27a No Fixed Address, Oz.
Website
www.redhill.net.au
Yeah, yeah. OK. So I couldn't find a picture of a rat on an emergency stand-by power generation machine, only a hamster. I sort of hoped that no-one except Herr Dr Adcadet would notice the substitution. :( But you don't need to spend an extra 94c, you simply use the experimental rat itself.

Think of it as a form of negative entropy
 

e_dawg

Storage Freak
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,903
Location
Toronto-ish, Canada
Yes, Adcadet, I was referring to heroin -- 3,6-diacetylmorphine (no halogenation of the carboxyl). I forgot what was acetylated where on the morphine molecule, so I used the general term 'acetylated' to be safe. Now I know it's the 3 and 6 hydroxyls that are acetylated.

I knew you would know what I am talking about, and others might like to know that heroin is simply acetylated morphine -- the key difference being the acetyl groups increasing lipid solubility thus allowing it to pass through the blood-brain barrier (BBB), which in turn allows it to reach opiod receptors in the brain, making for a much powerful high than morphine.
 

e_dawg

Storage Freak
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,903
Location
Toronto-ish, Canada
Another more common implication of drugs being able to cross the BBB is with antihistamines. I believe the older generation antihistamines used to be more lipid soluble and were able to cross the BBB and make you drowsy -- Benadryl (diphenhydramine HCl) and Actifed (tripolodine). The newer ones like Claritin (loratidine) and Reactine/Zyrtec (cetirizine) do not (nor did Hismanal or Seldane, but they had serious drug interaction problems) largely because they are less lipid soluble and do not cross the BBB.

Interesting to note that Claritin is only now being released for OTC distribution in the US when it has been non-prescription all this time in Canada. Similarly, Zyrtec is prescription in the US while Reactine, the Canadian label of the same drug has always been non-prescription.
 
Top