System Recommendation

Clocker

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My brother in law wants me to build him a new Windows 7 system. Looking for a recommendation as I don't know what is the best value right now. It's just for web surfing, email, youtube etc. No gaming. What's the best value with quality components?

Thanks,
Clocker
 

Clocker

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He doesn't want a laptop, he like having his current setup and he wants to utilize the new monitor he just got. He's used to Windows 7 so that's what he wants.

It will also need two 1TB drives (one for data and boot, the other for a backup drive). He has a lot of music he wants to keep backed up.
 

time

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The most useful feature I would recommend you try to include is USB 3.0. The big advantage over eSATA is no external power supply required for external 2.5" or SSD drives (yes I know laptops may have eSATA-USB combo ports to solve that, but peripherals to suit are very uncommon).

I'd rank an external backup as a higher priority than an internal one, i.e. something that isn't normally in the same place. I've read (but haven't confirmed) that the Samsung S2 USB 3.0 series are 7200rpm drives, which would make them the pick of the current crop.

It's really hard to go past a Samsung F4 2TB drive - buy 2 before Seagate takes them off the market. Although 5400rpm, their real-world performance is still very good compared to old 7200rpm drives. I personally favor an SSD boot drive, but it adds to the cost considerably. You could partition the drive with a view to migrating the boot partition to an SSD at a later date: 60GB for no games, 120GB for a gamer.

For a low budget, go for an AMD X2 265 (3.3GHz). Fully-featured motherboards to suit are also cheaper than Intel equivalents.

Next step up for me would be an Intel i3 2100 (3.1GHz). You would couple that with an H67 chipset motherboard (H61 doesn't have SATA 3, although you may not care). I don't think people here can see the point in Z68 at this stage; it relies on you ponying up a further $100 or so to Intel for a 20MB SSD cache - for that you can buy a real SSD and a less expensive motherboard.

An Intel i5 2400 swaps hyperthreading for twice as many cores (4), so it's a lot gruntier. You can double the integrated graphics performance with an i5 2500K, or would he be more likely to add a separate graphics card down the track? BTW, the K suffix ones are unlocked for overclocking ...

Performance of this Sandy Bridge stuff is so high, I don't know if it's worth going any further, but top of the range is an i7 2600k. It's identical to the 2500K except that hyperthreading has reappeared.

HTH.
 

Clocker

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THANKS FOR YOUR HELPFUL FEEDBACK!

How do these guys compare? The Intel SB is just a few bucks more..

G620
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116399

X2 265
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103910

I'm not to worried about SATA3 but H67 is only about $5-$10 more so I would probably steer him in that direction if Intel is the choice.

Seems like the word on the street is that the SB video solution is better than any of the onboard AMD stuff by a large margin. Is that correct? Any other pros-cons when considering an AMD with onboard video solution vs. Intel with SB video solution?
 

time

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Sandy Bridge integrated graphics is mostly HD 2000, which is broadly comparable to the AMD IGP offerings (although the more recent AMD chipsets are likely to be a bit faster).

Certain Intel chips (more mobile than desktop) come with the all-singing all-dancing HD 3000 graphics, which is easily twice as powerful. Only the K-suffix desktop CPUs have HD 3000, i.e. i5 2500K and i7 2600K (as I said, they're the same chip only hyperthreading is turned off in the i5 and the clocks are ever so slightly different).

Make no mistake, Intel set out to deceive the market big time with this HD2000/3000 bullsh*t, and clearly they have succeeded.

The Pentium is a good find, I clean forgot about them - sorry. It will have better IPC (Instructions Per Clock) and a slightly bigger cache, but a significant clock disadvantage against the X2 265, so I'd expect the AMD to feel faster. Software that's Intel compiler-optimized will close that gap or even reverse it.

With a lower clock, you'd expect the Intel to use less power, if that's a consideration.
 

time

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I may need to eat some of those words; it may be that only the latest AMD chipset is comparable to the HD 2000. TBH I'm not that interested in IGP performance past a certain point. HD 3000 makes me sit up and take notice, particularly in a laptop, but if I was spending that much on a desktop CPU, I'd be using a graphics card anyway.

Good Chinese review of the Pentium 620/840 and how they compare to AMD solutions (albeit the slightly slower X2 255).

Clocker, for someone who professes to not know the best value, that's an awesome pickup. Out of stock here so far, but it looks like Intel just deep-sixed AMD's budget solutions. I''ll be trying one for sure, thanks.

Oh yeah, and that review shows awesomely low power consumption, even under load. Really no point in looking at the low-power i3 anymore, this would be perfect for HTPC. Even better, it looks like we finally have a decent CPU for MiniITX! Unless I misread that review, system power seemed to be 50W under full load. :eek:
 

time

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I did misread it, it was 50W at idle and 79W under full load. That's with a GTX460 (idling).

Assuming roughly 83% PSU efficiency at these low power draws, that's about 41W & 66W downstream from the PSU. Allowing about 30W for everything else including the GTX460, my guess for the CPU is 11W idle and 36W under load. That's 9W less than they measured for the i3 2100, which sounds about right.

You could call that 45W TDP. By that reckoning, Intel can produce the "35W" 2.2GHz G620T version by dropping voltages just 5% (28W as loaded above). It would be interesting to see if the standard chip can manage that just as well. Years ago, I remember AMD sold Mobile Athlons that could drop to 0.8V at low speeds. I achieved exactly the same result with a desktop chip. ;)
 

Clocker

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I suspect the most CPU intensive thing my brother in law will be doing is websites with Flash video content. HD2000 should be fine for that, right? I would lean toward the more power efficient CPU probably since the system will be idle a lot.

I'm getting the feeling that the Intel solution looks like the best overall choice...is that what you think? I've also had the impression in the past the Intel chipset motherboards are usually better quality, albiet they can be a bit more expensive. Is that correct? Gigabyte is the manufacturer that I have preferred in the past. Are they still OK?

Note, the system he has now is about 10 years old...so he keeps his stuff for a while. He still doesn't want to spend a lot but I usually try steer him in the direction of best performance per dollar.

Thanks!
 

time

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Yes, I think it's an ideal solution for what most people want. Your biggest problem is finding a small enough PSU so that it's operating in its efficient range: most droop even at 10% of max rating and go south from there. With 2 HDDs and a 300W PSU, you'll only hit 20% at full load!

Mercutio has maintained that motherboards for Intel CPUs tend to be more reliable than those for AMD CPUs. Historically, this has been distorted because a) Nvidia made a lot of crappy AMD chipsets and b) the Intel boards used better capacitors. I think we're past all that now, probably reflected in them costing nearly the same.

There's also been a huge rationalization of motherboard manufacturers, or at least the brands that are available for us to buy. I'm starting to doubt that there is much difference anymore in component or manufacturing quality, but BIOS quality still varies, as Ddrueding has pointed out.

Personally, I still like Gigabyte, but based on the Failure Rate Statistics posted here, I'm prepared to consider Asrock, Asus, or MSI. Go with your gut.
 

time

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Either of these 300W Seasonic 80+ bronze with 120mm fan or with 80mm fan would be a great solution if you get a case without a PSU.

This is the HEC case that Merc likes; with 0.8mm steel you should be able to stand on it without worries. ;)

The Silverstone SG03/SG04 fit 2 3.5" drives (and a 2.5" drive) and are nice and compact, but they cost a lot more.
 

Bozo

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I just ordered the parts for build using an Intel BOXDH57DD motherboard, an Intel Pentium 6950, Antec Three Hundred Illusion, and an Antec Earthwatts EA430D.
I bought the Antec Three Hundred Illusion as it is the same case as the 100 and other 300 but comes with two more fans. Adding a single fan to the other cases will add $15 to the price. And, you can always remove a fan if you don't need it.
No need for a video card as video in in the CPU.
 

Mercutio

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I really do like the Antec 300 case. I've gotten the one that ships without a PSU for $30 a few times. It's a step up from the HEC case that I use in budget builds, but it's also physically larger than I would use for a business machine.
 

Mercutio

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Mercutio has maintained that motherboards for Intel CPUs tend to be more reliable than those for AMD CPUs. Historically, this has been distorted because a) Nvidia made a lot of crappy AMD chipsets and b) the Intel boards used better capacitors. I think we're past all that now, probably reflected in them costing nearly the same.


Intel motherboards also tend to be eight-layer PCBs rather than six, which is most common on AMD stuff. I'm not sure what the impact of that decision is, but I am sure that it makes the Intel boards more expensive. Also, I've found it a lot easier to get entirely solid cap designs for Intel stuff versus AMD.

On the other hand, LGA11xx boards are still stupidly expensive while pretty good AM3 boards are fairly cheap. There's a ton of bang-for-the-buck in AMD-land at price points where it's not even possible to look at an i3 of any sort.
 

time

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8-layer is only used when a design is immature, i.e. designers haven't yet worked out how to build it with 6 layers. This proved too hard with the Intel X58 chipset and production boards had to be 8-layer, which made them stupidly expensive.

It's possible that ATI/AMD designers took that into consideration, but it may just have been luck. On the other hand, I have absolutely no idea why Intel needs 23% more CPU pins to achieve exactly the same thing.
 

time

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Thanks Bozo. I'll look at what you have there! For now, this is the list I've put together. Appreciate any feedback you gurus might have:

http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=17662286

I was wondering why you selected a Mini-ITX motherboard to go with an Antec ATX mid-tower, but then I realized that NewEgg has decided we no longer want H67, we want Z68. :roll:

You might be able to shave a handful of bucks by finding a MicroATX or ATX board. Although I admit I struggled. My allegiance to Gigabyte is definitely not strong enough to buy a square peg to fit my ... anyway, you get the drift.

If you're going to shrink down to a Mini-ITX board, have you considered going for broke with a Mini-ITX case? You can keep an ATX PSU with the Lian Li Q11 - available in White, Black, Silver and Red. This is an exquisite case that should impress just about anyone: brushed aluminum you can fit almost anywhere.

Not that there's anything wrong with the Antec 300, it's just kinda huge for what you're going to put in it. And don't listen to Bozo, you won't need *any* extra cooling fans. :)

Last thing is I'd rather just have a second F3 7200rpm than dick around with the old F2. I can't give you anything concrete, but newer Samsung green drives (F3 and F4) are much better.
 

time

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How does this combo look? $299. Seems like a good value although I'm not familiar with the processor and I'm a little nervous about what the PSU will be like.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.657219

Apart from the i3, this looks like stuff that nobody wants - or at least, I wouldn't want. :p

The combo saves you $100, but gives you a faster CPU. It might be great, but I doubt it. I'd rather be the guru BIL because I got him the reliable PC that hasn't given him any trouble. Yes, I'm risk-averse. ;)
 

Chewy509

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Strangely I can't locate the AM3 socket pin out, but found the i7 (both socket 1366 and 1155) easy enough:

Socket 1366: http://download.intel.com/design/processor/datashts/320834.pdf (Chap 4)
Socket 1155: http://download.intel.com/design/processor/datashts/324641.pdf (Chap 8 )

But since AM3 has nearly 400 less pins to connect, it would be logically that it would be easier to route, hence a 6-layer vs a 8-layer board design. But that must make one wonder about the new LGA2011 coming out soon - will those be exclusively 8-layer designs?
 

Chewy509

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Also don't the newer Intel chips have a PCIe bus coming directly off the CPU in addition to the memory slots and DMI/QPI links (depending on model), where with AM3 the only thing coming off the CPU are the memory slots and a single HT link?
 

Bozo

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And don't listen to Bozo, you won't need *any* extra cooling fans. :)

I said I had just ordered that case with the extra fans. Adding just one fan to the other case would push the price up to the Illusion, so I bought the Illusion with two extra fans. I didn't mean to imply he would need them.
 

Clocker

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Thanks for all the feedback, guys. I decided to drop the Gigabyte mini-ATX board and go with the standard ATX Intel board. Just waiting for my brother in law to tell me to pull the trigger now..

Thanks again,
Clocker
 

time

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Should be fine, Clocker. I hope you don't mind, but as it happens I was just asked to provide a similar configuration, so for anyone else who's interested, here are the two sample configurations I offered:

Tiny Tower
InWin BK623 case with 300W 80+ SFX PSU $68
Gigabyte GA-H61M-USB3-B3 $79
Intel G620 CPU $69
Kingston 4GB RAM $41
Samsung F3 1TB 7200rpm HDD $54
Lite-On DVD-RW $32
Windows Home Premium 64-bit $89
Total $432

or

SFF MiniTower
Silverstone SG-03F $99
Antec Neo Eco 400W 80+ PSU $50
Gigabyte GA-H67MA-D2H-B3 $99
Intel i5 2500K CPU $199
Kingston 8GB (2x4) RAM $84
Samsung F4 2TB 5400rpm HDD $86
Lite-On DVD-RW $32
Windows Home Premium 64-bit $89
Total $738

Values are AU$ excluding tax. We pay more for cases, power supplies, optical drives and software, but less for some other things. The AU$ is worth about 1.05 US$, so I figure it will come out fairly close.

The biggest problem is that I can't see either motherboard on NewEgg, let alone the other one I'm considering, the GA-HA65M-UD3H-B3. This is an H61 chipset with a Marvell controller to add SATA 3. What I like is that it's cheap, yet appears to be unique in MicroATX motherboards in offering 4 USB 3.0 ports, 2 of which are available through a standard 20-pin header.
 

tazwegion

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My brother in law wants me to build him a new Windows 7 system. Looking for a recommendation as I don't know what is the best value right now. It's just for web surfing, email, youtube etc. No gaming. What's the best value with quality components?

I'm curious as to how much of the existing system's peripherals you'll be recycling to reduce costs and offer more of the overall budget towards main components ie. cpu/mainboard?



time said:
The biggest problem is that I can't see either motherboard on NewEgg

Gigabyte GA-H61M-USB3-B3 @ Newegg $79.99 USD after Mail-In-Rebate

Gigabyte-GA-H67MA-D2H-B3 @ Amazon $139.50 USD
 

time

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Thanks, my NewEgg-Fu isn't up to snuff.

No idea why the second one is so expensive in the U.S. It's actually a cut-down version of the GA-H67MA-UD2H-B3 that had 4 RAM sockets and DisplayPort, for virtually the same price.

Now Gigabyte's pushing the GA-H67MA-USB3-B3, which is cut down even more, for the same price as the original!

What a scam.
 

Mercutio

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Response to the Japanese quake and component shortages perhaps? Usually the "-UD" designation from Gigabyte refers to the use of all Japanese-made solid caps instead of electrolytic ones.
 

Clocker

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I'm curious as to how much of the existing system's peripherals you'll be recycling to reduce costs and offer more of the overall budget towards main components ie. cpu/mainboard?

None. The current system is about 12 years old. Maybe a little less, I believe I upgraded the CPU/Ram/Motherboard once already..
 

tazwegion

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None. The current system is about 12 years old. Maybe a little less, I believe I upgraded the CPU/Ram/Motherboard once already..

Whoa... 12 years that's like the SS7/370 & vertically slotted processor era, he's had a good run out of then definitely time for an upgrade, I'm not sure about those MIR's I've heard wind of them taking some time to cough up the rebate, still a discount is a discount ;)



time said:
Thanks, my NewEgg-Fu isn't up to snuff.

Not a problem, Newegg has an awful search engine IMHO what works for me is using more open (read as loose) search parameters :)
 

Bozo

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Response to the Japanese quake and component shortages perhaps? Usually the "-UD" designation from Gigabyte refers to the use of all Japanese-made solid caps instead of electrolytic ones.

The supply problems are being caused by the mess in Japan. Not that they build the parts, but they supply a lot of componates. I have also noticed prices creeping up too.
 

Clocker

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What I don't like about this nice little Seasonic PSU is that the AT 4pin connector is too short. wanted to get an extension but microcenter was out. I got an adapter so I can use a lp4 connector instead. Any downside?
 
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