Tape Backup Solutions

[Buck]

This subject has been briefly touched in other threads, but I would like a central place for this data, as I am interested in tape backup for some of my customers; I should say, they are interested in tape backup solutions, and I'm happy to sell them the product.

I would prefer to go ATA/ATAPI first. I'm also only looking at backing up data files totaling up to 5 GB. Personally, I see other viable solutions for this task, but I won't turn someone away if they insist on the product, so your opinions and experience are appreciated.

 

[CougTek]

What are your supported OS requirements? Price cap? Not that I can be of a great help about tape backups, but I figure these are two points important to now for others to provide valuable answers.

 

[Buck]

OS would usually be Windows XP. Price cap, reasonable for a sole proprieter.

 

[time]

If you want ATAPI and cost is an issue, you are probably looking at Travan 4. Capacity is 4GB uncompressed (8GB compressed).

But why don't you consider DVD-RW instead? You should be able to sell the Pioneer A04 for under US$500, and the 4.7GB (uncompressed) RW media is cheap.

 

[P5-133XL]

I'd consider backing up to a HD in a removable carrier. It tends to be cheaper as long as the amount of media isn't excessive. It's reatively easy to do the math to determine at which point the tapes start getting less expensive.

 

[Cliptin]

Is USB 2.0 going to be sufficient to be applied HD backup scenarios or is Firewire still required? I don't remember the throughputs of either of these connection types.

 

[SteveC]

USB 2.0 is actually slightly faster than Firewire. USB 2.0 is 480Mbs and Firewire is 400Mbs.

 

[time]

I'm not certain, but aren't there still latency issues with USB 2.0 that continue to make it less effective? Anyone know?

 

[CougTek]

I'm not certain, but aren't there still latency issues with USB 2.0 that continue to make it less effective? Anyone know?

My impression was that it was the contrary. IIRC ,the firewire hard drives were out-performed by their USB2 siblings.

 

[time]

No, I was right. This MacSkeptic column finds FireWire still has a slight advantage. Their Atto test showed a huge difference but they disqualified it because it didn't add up (but is that so unusual for Atto?).

TechTV ran some tests with a solid state storage device that highlighted FireWire's superiority: up to 70% on one test.

If anyone wants to go hunting for it, there is info somewhere about how the stupid latency issues of USB 1.0 still affect USB 2.0.

Can anyone justify Intel's creation of this redundant proprietary 'standard'? It's exactly the sort of stunt that M$ would pull.

 

[JKKJ]

I'm interested to hear what is proposed here, I'm looking into this right now for our company (I'm on the other side of the counter so-to-speak).

I've got 5 branches ranging from 2 to 15 computers, and for 4 of these branches I'm only worried about backing up email data and minor docs/spreadsheets etc. The main office has the most data (and the most valuable), and I have a SCSI TR4 Travan drive there that works fine doing overnight backups, about 3 Gbs. The other branches have much less data, under 1 Gb, peer networks (Win 95,98,2000) and they have a variety of backup solutions.

OK, one has nothing right now. I know, I know...

I originally thought external Zip, but there seems to be a consensus that they belong somewhere in the Dante's seventh circle rather than on a network. It's mainly the reliability (or lack therof) I take it?

We need something simple, automatic (i.e. only media changes required) and portable as I want a weekly offsite copy. I was thinking a simple script to copy data folders to a single computer, then ATA tape from there, but CAD50 for a TR4 tape just rubs me the wrong way, so I'm not sure that that's the cost-efficient way to go.
The DVD-RW idea looks interesting, if a little more complicated. I've not looked at it yet: I'd have to investigate the possibilities for automating the burning software that's around for DVD-RWs.

 

[time]

Backup software for DVD-RW and CD-RW:

http://www.ntibackupnow.com/

On special at the moment, if anyone's interested.

FWIW, I have a client with multiple branches who uses 100MB Zip for backup. They also perform incremental resynchronization each night by modem, however.

In any case, you would be better served with a simple CD-RW setup at each branch (and the software I recommended - standard mastering software is usually inappropriate for automated backup, although you could use packet writing with something like SecondCopy). Your data size doesn't require DVD-RW.

 

[JKKJ]

In any case, you would be better served with a simple CD-RW setup at each branch (and the software I recommended - standard mastering software is usually inappropriate for automated backup, although you could use packet writing with something like SecondCopy). Your data size doesn't require DVD-RW.

Thinking a little more carefully, of course you're right. I do suffer somewhat from newer, bigger, faster-for-no-good-reason when it comes to computer stuff.

That software looks good, thanks!

 

[Pradeep]

The best bang for buck I have seen in tape backup is the Excrix VXA series of drives/tapes. They have a new version, the VXA-2, the drive is from US$999 for internal SCSI version. One 80GB (160GB compressed) tape is US$89.

Now cheap 5400 rpm IDE drives in carriers will be cheaper, but still not bad pricing for such tape capacity.

http://www.ecrix.com/products/index.cfm

 

[JKKJ]

In any case, you would be better served with a simple CD-RW setup at each branch (and the software I recommended - standard mastering software is usually inappropriate for automated backup, although you could use packet writing with something like SecondCopy). Your data size doesn't require DVD-RW.

Thinking a little more carefully, of course you're right. I do suffer somewhat from newer, bigger, faster-for-no-good-reason when it comes to computer stuff.

That software looks good, thanks!

Ack! Perhaps I spoke too soon. The NTI BackupNow program allows verification, but the test backup I tried verified fine, but could not read one file on the restore. I'll have to play around with some different media.
It also does not allow a quick erase with a CD-RW disc on backup, insisting on a full erase, which is 20 minutes on the 4X burner I have here. I suppose that I'm buying newer, faster drives if I go this route, so that time will be lower, but what's wrong with a quick erase?
The job scheduling seems to work fine.

Buck, sorry if I hijacked this thread, I know you were looking for tape backup ideas. I thought I was too (still do?).

 

[time]

I've found at least some 2x4x RW media to be highly unreliable. I have been told that 10x12x is better (with newer drives obviously), but I have no evidence.

NTI's FileCD, their packet writing software, definitely has a quick format option (only applicable after you've done a full format, or course). I don't know what the story is with the backup software. I'll look into it.

 

[time]

I just checked, and it actually defaults to Quick (TOC) erase, with the option of full format. Took less than a minute to erase the 2x4x disc I just tried.

The first time you use a blank disc with the program, it will insist on doing a full format. But from then on it will use quick erase unless you override it.

 

[JKKJ]

Well, I've just downloaded the demo and tried a number of backups here at home, and the program always does a full format, the option for a quick format is greyed out even after repeated backups with the same media.
I haven't tried it with brand new media as I don't have any CD-RWs here right now. I'll have a look again at work tomorrow.

All the restores I've tried are good, so that's better.

[has another look around before posting]
Hmmm... Perhaps it's the particular drives - when I try to erase the disc using the Erase tool I get a popup message with "Based on the selected CD-RW drive...we recommend you use the Full Erase option...." I have a Sony 8/12/32 something at work and an HP 4/10/32 here and I'm a little surprised that two drives from different manufacturers and different generations would exhibit the same behaviour.

Thanks for your help time!

 

[Explorer]

DVD+R/W is quite affordable at about $299 for a drive (I saw one tonight at a store for this price) and DVD-R/W at about $250. Both write 4.7 GB per disc. The newfangled DVD+R/W ("plus") drives are a bit faster than the DVD-R/W ("minus")drives. DVD-RAM isn't too bad either, since the media is double-sided.

As for TAPE, the Exabyte/Ecrix VXA-1 tape format exhibits the most bang for the buck of any tape drives ever made. US$580 ~ $650 for a tape drive that can backup around 33 GB (uncompressed) or 66 GB (compressed) on a relatively inexpensive tape cartridge is pretty good. Their speed is decent -- faster than DDS-3 DAT (4mm). You can probably find the Compaq-branded VXA-1 drives the cheapest since they were/are the biggest seller of the drives. You'll also need a backup utility that supports the VXA-1.

 

[Cliptin]

The search function does work

I am interested in why time likes NTI Backup Now over Stomp BackupMyPC. BackupMyPC is based on the Veritas BackupExec engine.

Also, JKKJ how is NTI working out for you.?

 

[JKKJ]

Re: The search function does work

Also, JKKJ how is NTI working out for you.?

It didn't meet my need for a simple solution for non-technical users, so I'm still looking around. I'll take a look at Stomp: I like the name!

 

[time]

It didn't meet my need for a simple solution for non-technical users, so I'm still looking around.

I'm guessing you haven't had much to do with backup software before?

Comments from NTI customers:

I was so impressed with the product that I bought it after 3 days - I did not wait till the trial ended. It is the easiest and most versatile backup utility I have come across.
Julian B., Puerto Rico

Your product Backup NOW! allows me to do everything I want to do in a simple clear way, leaving me to get on with my job.
Dave B., Inchture, Perthshire, Scotland

Now, YOU guys have your act together. You couldn't have made the whole process of getting Backup NOW! up and running any easier.
Dave H., Portland, OR

NTI Backup Now was a breeze to install and the user interface is very intuitive. It works great.

This is a great product and worth the price. Making backups couldn't be easier. Thanks for a product that works as advertised.
Frank P., West Chester, Ohio.

:-?

I installed it on my technophobic neighbour's PC just the other day. He appreciated the step by step procedure NTI employs in their interface. But as I thought you would be doing, I set up a backup job for him (selected a few folders), then created a shortcut to it on the desktop. All he has to do is click on the shortcut and press "Start". If we used the scheduler (which is another single button operation to configure), he wouldn't have to do anything except feed it CDs when asked.

So I'm definitely choking on what you said. Please clarify.

 

[time]

Re: The search function does work

Cliptin,

On Stomp's BackupMyPC start page, there is a feature comparison matrix. It is true that the obsolete version of NTI Backup Now did not support DVD. Neither did the last version of BackupMyPC, but they both do now.

Apart from tape support, everything else they claim is missing from Backup Now amounts to lies. For instance, I'm quite certain that Backup Now has always had verification after backup. And how any backup product would be unable to backup networked drives is beyond me!

BTW, Stomp lists this as a feature: Dramatic Compression (fit up to 1.2GB of info on a standard CDR) Yep. Dramatic alright. :roll:

I downloaded their manual and went though it. I could find nothing that BackupMyPC does that NTI Backup Now doesn't. And BUMP surely must be a simple, easy to use product if it needs a 158 page manual.

On the other hand, there are a couple of little touches that NTI provides that aren't in BackupMyPC. For example, it detected my use of Opera and created a special checkbox to backup all Opera bookmark, email and address files. Plus a couple of Netscape bookmark files. Similarly for RegClean, and useful DOS boot files (this was on Win95).

Probably the key difference between the products is that BackupMyPC is still running with the dual interface concept, with both a Wizard and a DIY mode. NTI products have managed to combine the two, so that the same interface can be used by both a beginner (or a tired programmer) and an administrator. The advanced options are just neatly tucked away.

Having said that, if you already own BackupMyPC, I can't see any reason to change. If NTI Backup Now was twice the price, I probably wouldn't bother. But I like to use products that I can also recommend to clients, and I believe that NTI products have a definite ease of use edge (although it's more pronounced when comparing NTI CD Maker with Nero Burning ROM).

 

[time]

Oh yeah, and NTI supports heaps more drives than Stomp. Check for yourself (watch out - S means Supported and N means you're out of luck).

 

[JKKJ]

IIRC when I looked at NTI, it simply refused to do anything but a complete format every backup, and required user intervention at each backup to deal with this, which just didn't seem right, darnit. I did not spend a huge amount of time with it.

You're very keen on it time, so I'll take another look.

[reaches around to perform Heimlich Maneuver]

 

[time]

If you want it to stop prompting the user, go to Job - Options - Backup Options - Media and choose "Overwrite the media with this backup. The media will be erased (blank) before backup."

To create a shortcut as I described, first set up a backup job how you want and save it as, for example, "Daily".

After exiting the program, use the right mouse button to drag the Backup Now desktop shortcut to an empty space on the desktop. When you let go, a menu will pop up. Choose Copy, then right click on the new duplicate and select Properties - Shortcut.

Add "Daily.bjf" after the quoted string in the Target/Command field (leave a space), hit Enter and you're done. You'll need to surround the job name with quotes if it contains any spaces.

Of course, it's easier to use the scheduler, but once you've created one of these shortcuts, you have a template for any future ones.

As for your drive problems, I strongly suggest you pick up a new generation drive for $50 or so (check the supported list). Even my neighbour's elderly Sony 4x2x24 seemed to work okay. And 10/12x CD-RW technology may be more reliable, not to mention more practical, for your application. I would also consider calling or emailing NTI for assistance.

But of course, if Stomp's BackupMyPC happens to work with your current drives, then why not use it?

 

[JKKJ]

I tried both again briefly last night, and Stomp seems to be the one for me.

 

[Cliptin]

time, I can appreciate your loyalty to software that has worked well for you and your customers. I am not an apologist for any particular backup software just a man in need.

I appreciate the flexibility to backup to a variety of media. After looking at the NTI manual and perusing the FAQs I have found what I suspected; that NTI does not support backing up to a hard drive. I do find it appealing that BackupNOW can apparently image-backup any local NTFS drive with its open files without rebooting. They actually recommend relying on image-backup for NT/2000 instead of file backup.

Only XP supports a backup of open files in the Stomp software due to Windows XP snapshot support.

As with a lot of things the devil is in the details.

 

[time]

Erm, I didn't mean to sound like a loyalist.

You *can* backup to a hard drive with NTI Backup Now, but only with the image backup. I couldn't tell for sure, but I think BUMP may have the same limitation?

It didn't really worry me. If I want to backup files to another file there's this thing called (insert WinZip or preferred tool here), or SecondCopy etc.

JKKJ, it would be helpful to know if BUMP solved your problem of endless media formatting, and any other aspects that you preferred. TIA.

 

[Cliptin]

The Stomp software is very closely related to the software included with 2000 and presumably XP. You can back up to anything that presents itself as a drive letter. Thus, files backed up to a harddrive, zip drive or network drive and once finished appear as a single file.

Other files can also be copied to the same drive letter as really it's like any other drive letter.

 

[Cliptin]

Someone introduced this at SR:

http://www.acronis.com/products/trueimage/

 

[Mercutio]

Yeah, and I'm looking for a way to expense a copy ASAP. I'd love to know if it works.

 

[JKKJ]

JKKJ, it would be helpful to know if BUMP solved your problem of endless media formatting, and any other aspects that you preferred. TIA.

Stomp BUMP works fine; it does not have the formatting issue that NTI has.

As Cliptin noted, it's similar to the native W2K backup program, and since I know that already, it's an easy choice for me.

 

[time]

AFAIK, Stac Software (formerly Stac Electronics) first patented "snapshot" technology in 1995, and Replica for Netware was released in February 1996. They changed their name to Previo in 2000, and Replica became eSupport Essentials.

In 2001 they sued Support.Com and Connected Corporation for violating their snapshot patents. I'd guess that the company that successfully sued Microsoft for $120 million would have cleaned up here as well, but they were hemorrhaging, so decided to settle and cash in their assets.

The last few months have seen them sell up to Altiris and dissolve the company. Altiris has been into this stuff since about 1993, so it will be very interesting to see if their combined portfolio of patents has been infringed by Acronis, and whether or not they will do anything about it.

I believe you can buy Altiris' Client Management Suite, complete with all six options, for US$65 per seat. The basic Client Recovery Solution is about half that, and yes, you can buy one copy if you wish. The cost is less for 100 seats and up.

www.altiris.com

 

[cas]

AFAIK, Stac Software (formerly Stac Electronics) first patented "snapshot" technology in 1995

I am pretty sure that IBM was doing this 30 years ago (like so many things)

I have been investigating the issues under Windows, because I will be supporting disk image replication in my elSCSI product, whether the images are being accessed or not.

I am still trying to decide whether a snap shot event in the server, should require all clients to sync up. If I did it that way, a single server snap shot would backup all clients in a single shot.

 

[Cliptin]

FWIW, I sent Altiris an email about backing up open and locked files under windows 2000. According to NTI, XP has some special facility built in that makes it easy but 2000 does not have it. Altiris said that all open and locked files would be backed up under 2000.

 

[LiamC]

Hijack!

Glad I did a search first. A business approached me about backups yesterday. They are a small (9~10 person) operation but their data is growing at an exponential rate.

12 months ago, they had about 3GB of data that would fit on a DDS-2 tape (4GB per tape? - their current solution). Now it won't. They are thinking of moving to another backup solution and someone suggested DDS-4 (20GB per tape?) The problem I have with this is that at current rates, this will only last them twelve months.

They run W2K server and Exchange 2000, and I believe that backing up Exchange emails is the data explosion culprit. They have to back these up BTW.

As usual price is an issue. Also, they would prefer a 1 disk/tape/cartridge solution. From reading this thread, DVD is probably out.

Options?

 

[blakerwry]

if they're just backing up stuff on their server(a central location), what's preventing them from building another server just for backups or "archives" so to speak...

could be offsite, could be onsite, could use 5400RPM moster drives... could be RAIDed.... is expandible....

how long do they have to keep the data? after that period how much data do they expect to have?

backing up Exchange emails is the data explosion culprit.

I assume that the data is mostly text, which can benefit greatly from compression techniques... maybe 9:1 compression... did you include this fact in your calculations?

 

[LiamC]

Off site server for backups is not possible. AFAIK, they only have a 56K connection to the 'net.

They have to have some backups off-site for redundancy.

Emails. They mass mail documents to clients. A 5MB document sent to 60 or so clients. Yes the email needs culling (I have already suggested this too them). I have also suggested alternate methods of embedding graphics in docs which should also make a huge difference).

They don't know how much data they have at the moment - I have tasked them with finding out.

Backups are done with compression on and they need more than 1 tape now.

 

[blakerwry]

hmm.. does this JUST involve emails? like, can they just CC a copy of the emails to a couple backup accounts? lol...